Quickest Blackbelt

smacl

One of the big differences between chinese wrestling (shuai jiao, tui shou etc..) and judo or free style wrestling from a competition perspective is that you are trying to get your opponent on the ground or out of the area while staying on your feet. There's no ground game, following to the ground, pins, etc... Think sumo rather than judo. In shuai jiao the jacket sleeves are very short so the number of possible clothing grips will be less, typically collar and belt only. In tui shou (no gi / jacket) you tend to see many more trips and sweeps than full body throws, as they afford better scoring opportunity at lower risk.

Scores are accumulated over one or three three minute rounds, rather than a single score to victory. Not sure how this works in Judo.

Tui shou / pushing hands competition also has varients where you aren't allowed move the feet at all, or you can only move your back foot. Basically fighting for a line drawn between the opponents. Sounds unusual, but I've always found it to be great craic.

Like judo, any shuai jiao comps I've seen have had their fair share of injuries, whereas they'd be much rarer in tui shou.

OLDMAN1

smacl wrote: »

One of the big differences between chinese wrestling (shuai jiao, tui shou etc..) and judo or free style wrestling from a competition perspective is that you are trying to get your opponent on the ground or out of the area while staying on your feet. There's no ground game, following to the ground, pins, etc... Think sumo rather than judo. In shuai jiao the jacket sleeves are very short so the number of possible clothing grips will be less, typically collar and belt only. In tui shou (no gi / jacket) you tend to see many more trips and sweeps than full body throws, as they afford better scoring opportunity at lower risk.

Scores are accumulated over one or three three minute rounds, rather than a single score to victory. Not sure how this works in Judo.

Tui shou / pushing hands competition also has varients where you aren't allowed move the feet at all, or you can only move your back foot. Basically fighting for a line drawn between the opponents. Sounds unusual, but I've always found it to be great craic.

Like judo, any shuai jiao comps I've seen have had their fair share of injuries, whereas they'd be much rarer in tui shou.

that not excatly corect, shuai jiao and judo are the same in that both try to stay on there feet, but as we all know that is easier said than done , in shuai jiao you score 2 points for a throw if you remain standing and 1 point for a throw were you dont, but to get the 1 point you must land on your opponents torso, on the subject of grip, altough there is less cloth on the sleeves,but there are no restrictions on were you can grip EG:you can hold both sides of the jackets at the same time, in judo you can only hold the same side for 5 seconds,single and double leg gabs are also aloud , your just not aloud grab the trousers,both are very similar to each other...

arybvtcw0eolkf

lukeyjudo wrote: »

On topic if a judoka came to me as a green belt, was dedicated and trained three times a week and two days conditioning I would have him/her a black belt belt within two years.

And make that a year and a half if they were heavyweight.

Of that I've little doubt, actually I've no doubt you would.

And post more dammit.

SBG Ireland

Niall Keane wrote: »

do you think maintaining good balance and understanding leverage during a throw isn't so important?

not sure what that has to do with the point but yes i do


for me there is only one important thing in a takedown....that is you end up on top in control. if someone were to throw their opponent with the most beautiful triple back somersaulting handstand double hip throw....but then in the 1-3 second scramble phase when they hit the ground they get reversed...well that was an enormous waste of effort as now they're on bottom getting punched in the face.

i would rather get the most ugly school yard trip/bull rush whatever...and stay on top.

lukeyjudo

SBG Ireland wrote: »

not sure what that has to do with the point but yes i do


for me there is only one important thing in a takedown....that is you end up on top in control. if someone were to throw their opponent with the most beautiful triple back somersaulting handstand double hip throw....but then in the 1-3 second scramble phase when they hit the ground they get reversed...well that was an enormous waste of effort as now they're on bottom getting punched in the face.

i would rather get the most ugly school yard trip/bull rush whatever...and stay on top.

I agree. I don't care what the takedown looks like once you end up in top position.

no scope

i doubled all the way up to blue belt red tag and got my black belt in may 2002 , was only 12 years old and my 2nd degree black belt wen i was 14

Niall Keane

What smacl said Sid,

The difference relates to what I said in post 107,

Traditional Chinese wrestling, indeed a lot of older traditional wrestling, Turkish for example don't have a ground game. This relates to the use of bladed weapons and the requirement for throws useful in that situation. So for example there is no difference between the shuai Jaoi application of a Tai Chi Chuan technique called "single sweep lotus leg" where during a clinch or closing you might sweep his lead leg (shin on shin direction) and strike (reverse hammer strike) the back of his head, and the Tai Chi Sword technique "Spreading aside the grass looking for a snake" where your blade intercepts and folds, as you parry then slice his forearm on the way to delivering the same hammer strike albeit with the pommel, as you sweep his leg as before. Now if you were to fall into him here which would certainly lend your weight toppling him you will find a double edged weapon between you and him, not the best tactic in that situation, probably not where you want to be?

From “growing up” like smacl with tui shou comps you quickly learn that it is a task in itself to develop the skill and strategies to remain standing, the rule sets discount scores if you go with him, and obviously they’ll try to pull you down with them if they’re on the way anyway. So I’m not theorising here, if you haven’t done this type of wrestling, try it out yourselves, the differences in dynamic will become evident. But again maybe you’ll find it a non-requirement for what your sport demands, maybe its counter-productive preventing you from following through to where you want to be?

Again it all comes down to the tradition each of us have adopted, one isn’t better than the other, or more relevant. All have their uses, indeed are tailored for such.

Specifically on the throw double seize, I can now only speak with generalizations, for sanshou most will seize the legs and throw the opponent in a direction to the side of their “full” “planted” lead foot, so it acts as a buttress preventing his descending weight pulling you down. SO in effect you crush the knees together, lift and twist throwing him to the side on to his head or back, using the planted foot to then spring back in recovery out of range. Generally when I’ve seen MMA matches the throw is aimed straight into him, in an over extended fashion, pushing through his abdomen with a small lift and down, and then following the throw to the mount etc. So one has a definite recovery in mind the other a following through, if I’m explaining this right? Again it’s not the only way to do it and everyone makes mistakes. There is 1 point even when you f*(k it up and land on him.

Have a look at some of Cung Li’s Strikeforce MMA fights, if you’re telling me you don’t see a difference in expression between his and others throwing methods then may I suggest spec savers? Perhaps I'm being unfair, and due to the nature of our game, over extension (knee beyond foot) that should be avoided and leverage opportunities that can be exploited to throw someone to the ground within 3 seconds while we have to remain standing are our bread and butter, so we pick up on these subtleties, essential to our sport but maybe not to others?

Niall Keane

for me there is only one important thing in a takedown....that is you end up on top in control.

I wont repeat what I said above which gives the reasons for what I will say:

for me there is only one important thing in a takedown, that I don't follow him to ground in a tangle of blades and that I spring back after smashing him well away from his reach.

I think both methods have martial virtue. horses for courses.

arybvtcw0eolkf

no scope wrote: »

i doubled all the way up to blue belt red tag and got my black belt in may 2002 , was only 12 years old and my 2nd degree black belt wen i was 14

In what style?.

flynny51

Viviana Elegant Tap-dancer wrote: »

In what style?.

I'll hazard a guess and say TKD

Opinicus

lukeyjudo wrote: »

And make that a year and a half if they were heavyweight.

Why the difference for a heavyweight?
Do they have an advantage in comps?
Is there weight categories or open weight or both?

cletus

Opinicus wrote: »

Why the difference for a heavyweight?
Do they have an advantage in comps?
Is there weight categories or open weight or both?

I assumed it was because there were less people competing at the heavier end of things

Opinicus

cletus wrote: »

I assumed it was because there were less people competing at the heavier end of things

But wouldn't that mean you would have less fights
i.e. less chances to score your 100 points.

Also wouldn't that mean you would have less of a skill spread?

cletus

Opinicus wrote: »

Also wouldn't that mean you would have less of a skill spread?

Yes, but i took it to mean that lukeyjudo felt he could teach you to be very good, therefore less of a skill spread in general means you win more fights

SBG Ireland

Niall Keane wrote: »

for me there is only one important thing in a takedown, that I don't follow him to ground in a tangle of blades and that I spring back after smashing him well away from his reach.

ah get ya...not much worry of blades in submission wrestling/mma which is all im interested in

arybvtcw0eolkf

Opinicus wrote: »

Why the difference for a heavyweight?
Do they have an advantage in comps?
Is there weight categories or open weight or both?

There can be a huge advantage for a heavy weight in getting points towards his black belt.

In competition fighting in an open weight devision your going to get much lighter opponents, increasing your chances of a win.

Then in national dan gradings there are no weight devisions, however the officials on the day will try to closely match fights.

As an extreme example of this on a grading I once fought a 62kg Judoka, but I'd weight in at 120kgs. It was silly, and very unfair - I'd all my required fights and didn't need the win, the other lad needed the win but I was the last remaining opponent for him. I won, but it was a hollow victory.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Opinicus wrote: »

Why the difference for a heavyweight?
Do they have an advantage in comps?
Is there weight categories or open weight or both?

There can be a huge advantage for a heavy weight in getting points towards his black belt.

In competition fighting in an open weight devision your going to much lighter opponents, increasing your chances of a win.

Then in national dan gradings there are no weight devisions, however the officials on the day will try to closely match fights.

As an extreme example of this (aiding the heavier weights) on a grading I once fought a 62kg Judoka, but I'd weight in at 120kgs. It was silly, and very unfair - I'd all my required fights and didn't need the win, the other lad needed the win but I was the last remaining opponent for him. I won, but it was a hollow victory.

Sid_Justice

Niall Keane wrote: »

What smacl said Sid,

The difference relates to what I said in post 107,

Traditional Chinese wrestling, indeed a lot of older traditional wrestling, Turkish for example don't have a ground game. This relates to the use of bladed weapons and the requirement for throws useful in that situation. So for example there is no difference between the shuai Jaoi application of a Tai Chi Chuan technique called "single sweep lotus leg" where during a clinch or closing you might sweep his lead leg (shin on shin direction) and strike (reverse hammer strike) the back of his head, and the Tai Chi Sword technique "Spreading aside the grass looking for a snake" where your blade intercepts and folds, as you parry then slice his forearm on the way to delivering the same hammer strike albeit with the pommel, as you sweep his leg as before. Now if you were to fall into him here which would certainly lend your weight toppling him you will find a double edged weapon between you and him, not the best tactic in that situation, probably not where you want to be?

From “growing up” like smacl with tui shou comps you quickly learn that it is a task in itself to develop the skill and strategies to remain standing, the rule sets discount scores if you go with him, and obviously they’ll try to pull you down with them if they’re on the way anyway. So I’m not theorising here, if you haven’t done this type of wrestling, try it out yourselves, the differences in dynamic will become evident. But again maybe you’ll find it a non-requirement for what your sport demands, maybe its counter-productive preventing you from following through to where you want to be?

Again it all comes down to the tradition each of us have adopted, one isn’t better than the other, or more relevant. All have their uses, indeed are tailored for such.

Specifically on the throw double seize, I can now only speak with generalizations, for sanshou most will seize the legs and throw the opponent in a direction to the side of their “full” “planted” lead foot, so it acts as a buttress preventing his descending weight pulling you down. SO in effect you crush the knees together, lift and twist throwing him to the side on to his head or back, using the planted foot to then spring back in recovery out of range. Generally when I’ve seen MMA matches the throw is aimed straight into him, in an over extended fashion, pushing through his abdomen with a small lift and down, and then following the throw to the mount etc. So one has a definite recovery in mind the other a following through, if I’m explaining this right? Again it’s not the only way to do it and everyone makes mistakes. There is 1 point even when you f*(k it up and land on him.

Have a look at some of Cung Li’s Strikeforce MMA fights, if you’re telling me you don’t see a difference in expression between his and others throwing methods then may I suggest spec savers? Perhaps I'm being unfair, and due to the nature of our game, over extension (knee beyond foot) that should be avoided and leverage opportunities that can be exploited to throw someone to the ground within 3 seconds while we have to remain standing are our bread and butter, so we pick up on these subtleties, essential to our sport but maybe not to others?

Thanks Niall, if you can't explain the differences in 3 sentences rather than 3 paragraphs I assume you don't understand the differences or there really aren't any. You

OLDMAN1

Sid_Justice wrote: »

on the topic of differences can you explain some aspects of Shuai Jiao that make it distinct from Judo and other wrestling martial arts? Or how exactly your double seize differs from a double leg take down popular in freestyle(or american) wrestling?

rules and jackets, wrestling is wrestling...

Cork24

I'm being a Snob? what skill is in that ? any Monkey can do that?

i like a more free flowing match,

lukeyjudo

Cork24 wrote: »

I'm being a Snob? what skill is in that ? any Monkey can do that?

i like a more free flowing match,

Really? I like to win.

And if any monkey can do that I suggest you avoid dublin zoo so in case Frank the silverback escapes from his enclosure and double legs you.

Niall Keane

Well Sid you're welcome, if all you know about martial art can be summed up in three sentenses then you really don't deserve my detailed answers.
No point teaching a pig to sing, wastes your time and only annoys the pig.... When will I learn?

Niall Keane

Originally Posted by Niall Keane

for me there is only one important thing in a takedown, that I don't follow him to ground in a tangle of blades and that I spring back after smashing him well away from his reach.

ah get ya...not much worry of blades in submission wrestling/mma which is all im interested in

No prob SBG, I get this alot, existing in both perceived diametricly opposed realms of martial arts today at the same time, on one hand as you know I'm known to promote , partake in and coach lads to fight in sanshou, and various chinese wrestling comps. We've done well with many international champions and ranked Euro and World athletes.So we are sometimes placed in the box that would suggest we disregard weapon training and the likes as these days many view such as belonging to the mcdojo fantacy brigade.
On the other side BECAUSE we practice forms and weapons many sport orientated groups assume that we cannot fight or dont know what we are talking about. So I often get lectures and insults from people who haven't come close to our sporting achievements. Even on this thread it has been said that I obviously dont know about the throws because I cant sum it up in three sentences, if the lad did his homework he'd realise that through Paul Mitchel my coach, Practical TaiChi chuan won the world championship in 2005 in Shuai Jaio with 87 countries taking part, but he probably knows better than us about how to do shaui jaio? Smacl I believe won a British title?
I wouldn't dream of telling people how to do ground work or sub wrestling, that skill belongs to the likes of your good self, and I'd have a bit more cop on, and respect and understanding for whats required to compete at a high level having done it in my sprot, than to question whether you understand what you are doing in your sport?, (I think you and I have been gentlemen on this thread, shame not all develop this trait?) as you know we dont claim to know it all, Sam Berrik of London Practical Tai Chi did a couple of years of BJJ to sub his tai chi and aid his Cage Rage carrear, which then improved, he needed it as he was really interested in the mma format, and had to get his head around the idea of following through onto the ground. Not much point doing what we would do in that format, at best you would end up with a load of takedowns but no submission, a dangerous gamble, where the rules call for one?
But I suppose what people dont get is we do the comps not because we are primarily into sport but because we are a sincere bunch and wish to test our understanding of and improve our ability in our art. Many could do with taking a leaf from our book you might think? Trouble is we win a lot so people assume thats all we do. Weapons form one of the five main conponents of our style, so our wrestling skills tie in with them, and are not divorced, indeed one informs the other. This is typical of many kung-fu styles hence the suitable rules in sanshou. Its a dfferent perspective I guess, but wouldn't the world be very boring if we all saw things the same way?

Ug Lee

Niall

I mean this with respect. You seem to have a lot of knowledge of what you do and in general I find it interesting however a lot of the time your point is lost as you write too much. You can get your message across in shorter paragraphs.

Ug

Sid_Justice

obviously that architecture training, write out a planning permission slip as long and as convoluted as possible and hope not body reads it or takes issue with it.

crosstrainer1

RoyNeary wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. In which style / discipline would you be most likely to get a Black belt the quickest?

look at any m a mag. theres people over in england handing out instructor black belts over the weekend for 100s of pounds to anyone who will pay

snowcrazie

Its a joke some clubs will be graded by their own instructor. In my opinion your instructor cannot grade you without being biased. I was always graded by the heads of my association who were based in England and Japan, were all japanese and would only meet us at the gradings. That meant that they really didn't care who you were or how hard you worked, all they saw was your skill and technique and thats how you were judged. And people were very regulary failed (though not as much at very low belts).

Anyone who gets a black belt in <6 yrs especially if its a kid/teenager. I wouldn't put much weight in. You just don't have the experience to back it up.

FruitLover

snowcrazie wrote: »

Anyone who gets a black belt in <6 yrs especially if its a kid/teenager. I wouldn't put much weight in. You just don't have the experience to back it up.

And what of Japanese university students who are known to commonly achieve a black belt in judo, karate or kendo in 2 years or under? Do you think you know more about what makes a black belt than their (often internationally reknowned) instructors?

EnjoyChoke

snowcrazie wrote: »

Its a joke some clubs will be graded by their own instructor. In my opinion your instructor cannot grade you without being biased. I was always graded by the heads of my association who were based in England and Japan, were all japanese and would only meet us at the gradings. That meant that they really didn't care who you were or how hard you worked, all they saw was your skill and technique and thats how you were judged. And people were very regulary failed (though not as much at very low belts).

Anyone who gets a black belt in <6 yrs especially if its a kid/teenager. I wouldn't put much weight in. You just don't have the experience to back it up.

I would have thought your own instructor is the best placed to assess and grade.

snowcrazie

I don't have first hand experience training in Japan but i would assume its a bit more intense then classes in ireland.

Also you have to look at how often they are training. I mean if someone is intensely training everyday for hours at a time then of course they will advance much much faster then normal. Perhaps i should qualify my statment with an "in general" or "for the average student in ireland/england". But for the average person training 2-4 times a week i think six year is about right.

I fully stand by my statment that your own instructor shouldn't grade you.
If a complete stranger assess your technique and decides that you have the require skills to proceed to a higher belt then it is obviously justified (any funny business such as paying for your belt aside)

Your own instructor who sees you several times a week for years will not be able to judge you on that one performance, other things such as how hard you work, how helpful you are, how often you turn up will be in his/her mind and will colour their decision.

Of course dedication and respect are important but in the context of a grading, which is an exam. completely unbiased judging is required.

You will see very quickly if you look into it that students whose own sensai grade them achieve higher belts much quicker.