Quickest Blackbelt

RoyNeary

Just out of curiosity. In which style / discipline would you be most likely to get a Black belt the quickest?

OLDMAN1

i wouldn't blame any style for these quick black belts, its down to the instructor imo, the quickest i have ever heard of was 16 months and he trained twice a week and never once spared, thats not the stye, thats the instructor and before anybody asks im not saying the style and i dont know how much he charged him..

arybvtcw0eolkf

If your very gifted its possible you'll get it in Judo inside 3 years, but it doesn't mean you know Judo. It just mean's you can fight and win belts.

But this really is the exception rather than the rule, and you'd have to be an exceptionally gifted fighter.

Its not the belt, its the journey that matter's.

cstlgr

i know an irish guy that started tae kwon do in seoul south korea last july, at total beginner level and was awarded his black belt two months ago :eek: , this guy smokes 20 a day gets pissed every weekend and would tell you himself that he is very unfit.. and i doubt very much would be much use in a fight, makes you wonder how these things get awarded you would think tkd in south korea would be serious

rom

It all depends on how often you train. If you get 2 A grades in a row in Tae Kwon Do you can double grade. People have done the first 2 grades and double graded all the way to black belt but its very very rare and your talking about training every day really.

You can get a Tae Know Do black belt in 2 years that way. 99% of people do it in 4-5 years mainly due to most Black Belt grading only happen once a year.

Tony Robbins did it in 6 months but he is just super.

yomchi

cstlgr wrote: »

i know an irish guy that started tae kwon do in seoul south korea last july, at total beginner level and was awarded his black belt two months ago :eek: , this guy smokes 20 a day gets pissed every weekend and would tell you himself that he is very unfit.. and i doubt very much would be much use in a fight, makes you wonder how these things get awarded you would think tkd in south korea would be serious

Can I hazard a guess and say he got it as part of a college course?

In Korea, WTF Taekwon-Do is taught in the colleges where black belts come as part of the curriculum, a bit like having a calculator for maths class.

yomchi

rom wrote: »

It all depends on how often you train. If you get 2 A grades in a row in Tae Kwon Do you can double grade. People have done the first 2 grades and double graded all the way to black belt but its very very rare and your talking about training every day really.

You can get a Tae Know Do black belt in 2 years that way. 99% of people do it in 4-5 years mainly due to most Black Belt grading only happen once a year.

Yep, it took me six :eek:

king_of_inismac

You should consider a blackbelt like getting your driving license. Sure, you've got the basics, but it doesn't mean you're anyway proficient.

My policy, you're only as good (or as bad) as your last training session.

cstlgr

yomchi wrote: »

Can I hazard a guess and say he got it as part of a college course?

In Korea, WTF Taekwon-Do is taught in the colleges where black belts come as part of the curriculum, a bit like having a calculator for maths class.

not sure about college, but he does teach english tefl over there

FruitLover

You can get a black belt in the time it takes to get the bus into town and go to the local martial arts store.

But what would be the point?

BobbyOLeary

Viviana Elegant Tap-dancer wrote: »

it doesn't mean you know Judo. It just mean's you can fight and win belts.

I'm not a judoka, just a BJJ player but this is confusing me a bit. What do you mean by knowing judo exactly? Maybe it's how I view jitz but if someone has a black belt and has gotten it through live competition I view them as knowing the art. Obviously they don't know everything but they're pretty good.

Is winning competitions not Judo?

Just as an afterthought, this isn't meant as a smartassed attack, I'm honestly just curious about this. I see this a lot more in shotokan and the like where the master with the big belly "knows" the art so doesn't have to prove himself. BJJ tends not to have guys who wear a high rank who can't move properly. I would have assumed Judo would be the same?

flynny51

Viviana Elegant Tap-dancer wrote: »

Its not the belt, its the journey that matter's.

I think that sums it up nicely.

Back when I used to TKD there was kids with black belts and adults who could barely spar. I think it cheapens the whole idea of the belt system.

RoyNeary

Thanks guys for all the replies. A friend of mine recently got a black belt after only 2 years of training and i just thought that seemed a bit quick.

Doug Cartel

The belts in BJJ and judo are on a different scale - in fact you can't easily compare belts between different at all. It takes a lot longer to get a black belt in BJJ than it does in judo and a BJJ black belt will know a lot more of the BJJ syllabus than a first dan judo guy will know of the judo syllabus. After you get your black belt in BJJ that's it as far as grading goes, and all your additional dans come from time-in-grade. In judo you still have to do tests to grade, and you're still learning a lot.

Even comparing grades between countries is difficult. I've been told that in Japan you can get a (judo) black belt in about a year of dedicated study. They consider first dan more as a sign of commitment than of skill.

Doug Cartel

flynny51 wrote: »

Most of you probably know where the colour system came from. In olden times students started off with their white belt. As time went on and the more they trained and sweated.. their belt got dirty and turned yellow... Over years of training, sweat and blood it would turn green, brown until it was worn and black.

Ha, ha. No. This is total codswallop.

Clive

flynny51 wrote: »

Most of you probably know where the colour system came from. In olden times students started off with their white belt. As time went on and the more they trained and sweated.. their belt got dirty and turned yellow... Over years of training, sweat and blood it would turn green, brown until it was worn and black.

That's the story, but the truth is that Kano instituted it in judo. To be honest anyone whose belt is changing colour should either wash it or buy a new one.

flynny51

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Ha, ha. No. This is total codswallop.

I just had a look online and apparently it's a misconception. Here's what wikipedia has to say.

The systematic use of belt color to denote rank was first used by Kano Jigoro, the founder of judo, who first devised the colored belt system using obi, and awarded the first black belts to denote a Dan rank in the 1880s. Initially the wide obi was used; as practitioners trained in kimono, only white and black obi were used. It was not until the early 1900s, after the introduction of the judogi, that an expanded colored belt system of awarding rank was created.[2] Other martial arts later adopted the custom or variation on it (e.g. using colored sashes) to denote rank including in arts that traditionally did not have a formalized rank structure. This kind of ranking is less common in arts that do not claim a far eastern origin, though it is used in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program.

Misconceptions
One common idea concerning the tradition of belts claims that the belt ranking system is an ancient aspect of traditional martial arts and that early martial artists began their training with a white belt, which eventually became stained black from years of sweat, dirt, and blood.[citation needed] In fact, Japanese Koryu instructors tended to provide certificates.[citation needed]
In some arts and schools there is the (often only half-serious, though equally often rigorous) opinion that the belt should not be washed; the idea that by doing that one would "wash away the knowledge" or "wash one's Qi away" might be related to this myth. Apart from risk of the dye running, there is the problem that as most modern belts are made with a cotton or nylon outer shell, but polyester batting and stitching to fill out the belt, the different shrinkage of cotton and polyester in hot water could cause the belt to come apart.

The misconception part is not referenced though. I've read it in a number of places over the years, I prefer the 'blood and sweat' version :P

FruitLover

Here we go again...

flynny51 wrote: »

Most of you probably know where the colour system came from. In olden times students started off with their white belt. As time went on and the more they trained and sweated.. their belt got dirty and turned yellow... Over years of training, sweat and blood it would turn green, brown until it was worn and black

Sorry mate, but this a load of nonsense drummed up to invent a romantic story for gullible westerners to latch onto. If you've ever spent much time in Japan, you'll have noticed that the Japanese are fastidiously clean. The idea of anyone wearing a stinking old belt until it literally turned black from filth would turn anyone's stomach over here, no matter what century you visited.

RoyNeary wrote: »

Thanks guys for all the replies. A friend of mine recently got a black belt after only 2 years of training and i just thought that seemed a bit quick.

Unless you're a martial arts instructor, you're probably not in much of a position to judge. In Japan (for example), it's not unusual for people (particularly uni students, who train their 金玉 off) to get their first dan-grade in karate, judo or kendo within a single year of beginning, never mind two. It all comes down to how hard (and often) you train, and how well you understand the training (which is influenced by the quality of teaching).

In Ireland, I trained 2-3 times a week, one hour per session. In Japan, it's pretty normal to train an hour in the morning before work, then two hours in the evening, every single weekday (and an hour or two on Saturdays). I effectively train an entire week's amount in a single day here. That's five Irish week's worth (minimum) per week here. It took me the best part of five years to earn my black belt in Ireland, so surely it would make sense that had I trained as I do back then, I would have reached the same level in roughly a fifth of the time?

flynny51

Ya it was pointed out twice already I guess I believed it because I never heard otherwise and it makes a hell of a lot more sense (minus the hygiene) than handing out black belts to 13 year olds.

As Makikomi said, it's all about the journey.

Niall Keane

"it's all about the journey", regarding belts and gradings one could be cynical and suggest... It's all about the money, the journey exists with or without belts, all they offer is a perceived heirarchy, do western boxers wear their achievments their fight record on their shorts? The only belts to respect are championship belts, the rest are often guilty of substituting for courage and skill. And all such belt systems are left open to abuse all it takes is one greedy instructor to start handing them out for a fee. I really see no martial purpose.

Ug Lee

In Hai Gumbo "if" you were already a black belt, you could do five weekend courses consisting of two days each and you would be awarded your blackbelt.

However a blackbelt in Asia and a blackbelt in the west is something different. The next grade for one of my students will be blackbelt. It will have taken him 7.5 years but might take him longer. I remember when I got my blackbelt, I felt like shlt. I knew I didn't deserve it. I will only feel like I deserve my blackbelt when my first student gets theirs.

rom

yomchi wrote: »

Yep, it took me six :eek:

99% not really true but if you don't miss or fail a grading it takes that long.

I didn't miss any and it took 4 years.

Sid_Justice

Doug Cartel wrote: »

The belts in BJJ and judo are on a different scale - in fact you can't easily compare belts between different at all. It takes a lot longer to get a black belt in BJJ than it does in judo and a BJJ black belt will know a lot more of the BJJ syllabus than a first dan judo guy will know of the judo syllabus. After you get your black belt in BJJ that's it as far as grading goes, and all your additional dans come from time-in-grade. In judo you still have to do tests to grade, and you're still learning a lot.

Even comparing grades between countries is difficult. I've been told that in Japan you can get a (judo) black belt in about a year of dedicated study. They consider first dan more as a sign of commitment than of skill.

Mostly agree with this. However, I don't think a BJJ blackbelt should really know that more of the bjj syllabus than a judo black belt but the bjj blackbelt would have a much higher standard of skill within that syllabus. Bjj blackbelt is a sign of expertness while a judo black belt is a sign of competency.

For many Japanese martial arts, Aikido and Judo for example, you can take a dedictated intensive course for a year training daily to get a black belt.

yomchi

rom wrote: »

99% not really true but if you don't miss or fail a grading it takes that long.

I didn't miss any and it took 4 years.

I didn't miss any nor fail any, we graded twice a year with a prelim before black. Im doing TKD 23 years this year and I recently graded to 4th degree. There are guys with less time than me who are 6th degrees. Sin an saol.

Tim_Murphy

I once gave a friend of mine a black belt (certificate and all) for her birthday, she was well impressed. :pac: 0 classes a week for 0 weeks, got to be a record.

Now, everybody promise not to mention that to my old TKD instructor (Jon I'm looking at you!) :eek:

joeyhehir

Signed up my eldest son to a club while living in sweden and with payment they would award a black belt after 2 years. He was 5 years old then. We left the club. It was all about money!

yomchi

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I once gave a friend of mine a black belt (certificate and all) for her birthday, she was well impressed. :pac: 0 classes a week for 0 weeks, got to be a record.

Now, everybody promise not to mention that to my old TKD instructor (Jon I'm looking at you!) :eek:

You were well known for that Murphy

rom

yomchi wrote: »

I didn't miss any nor fail any, we graded twice a year with a prelim before black. Im doing TKD 23 years this year and I recently graded to 4th degree. There are guys with less time than me who are 6th degrees. Sin an saol.

I did TKD before up to Blue Belt and then about 10 years later stared from the start again so really it was 7 years. Graded 3 times a year until blue belt. Trained 4 times a week from Blue to Black. My instructor failed 3 out of 4 adults going for red belt at the last color belt grading. The guy that passed is training 4-5 nights a week, the others are not.

I have never been concerned about belts only that having my belt getting smaller as a result.

pearsquasher

In the bujnkan gradings are between the instructor and the student and are meaningless outside this context. It's neither here nor there who gets graded first or for what reasons or how long it takes.

Its extremely rare for anyone training like this to care very much about anyone elses grade except their own. It really is an excellent system and pretty much levels everyone off into the mindset of "if I train hard, I will get better".

cletus

pearsquasher wrote: »

In the bujnkan gradings are between the instructor and the student and are meaningless outside this context. It's neither here nor there who gets graded first or for what reasons or how long it takes.

Its extremely rare for anyone training like this to care very much about anyone elses grade except their own. It really is an excellent system and pretty much levels everyone off into the mindset of "if I train hard, I will get better".

Do Bujinkan instructors in general market themselves using their grade, i.e. "Train with Master Pat, x dan bujinkan", just curious

Darren Mahony

Hi

I can only speak for our organisation, The European Kenpo Karate Association, as I don't know the rules of the other Kenpo organisations in the country but is a rule in our charter that you must spend a minimun time of 1 (one) year on each Brown Belt before you can test for the next which means a minimum of 3 years from 3rd Brown to 1st Degree Black.
As it would take most people at least 3 to 4 years to get to 3rd Brown you are looking at 6 to 7 years before getting a Black Belt.
As the material really kicks up the notches from Brown Belt on, this time is to allow the material to be completly and totally assimilated and also to give the person a longer period to hone their skills so that by the time they are allowed to test for 1st Black they are highly skilled and have an excellent understanding of the system.
Having said that, in Kenpo, a 1st Degree Black Belt is considered a Junior Instructor and you are not a fully fleged Instructor until you get to 3rd Degree Black which following our rules will take a minimum of another 5 years.
These times are all minimums and it may take an individual longer.

Regards
Darren Mahony

SBG Ireland

gunni and bj penn both got bbs in under 4yrs in bjj...however as bjj is 'testable' im sure neither would mind proving they know their art

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

gunni and bj penn both got bbs in under 4yrs in bjj...however as bjj is 'testable' im sure neither would mind proving they know their art

all sytrems are 'testable'

Doug Cartel

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

all sytrems are 'testable'

Perhaps, but the people in some systems aren't as open to taking that test as others.

OLDMAN1

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Perhaps, but the people in some systems aren't as open to taking that test as others.

i 100% agree, but remember what you said-it's the people.

cletus

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i 100% agree, but remember what you said-it's the people.

However, if enough of the people in the style resist testing, then there is the chance that the style itself will drift from what is effective

Doug Cartel

cletus wrote: »

However, if enough of the people in the style resist testing, then there is the chance that the style itself will drift from what is effective

You can still test something regardless of its effectiveness. You just might not like the results.

cletus

I agree with your posts Doug, I'm trying to refute that absolute statement of its the man not the style

OLDMAN1

cletus wrote: »

I agree with your posts Doug, I'm trying to refute that absolute statement of its the man not the style

first of all i used the word system not style,in my limited experience in a lot of cases it is the man not the system. there is a reason that some systems are still around after between 100 and 400 years, they stood the test of time they just did not stand the test of some men...

Doug Cartel

No system is guaranteed to turn you into a badass, and some people win fights despite training in complete BS.

You can't look at these things on an individual level. You have to concentrate not on the best and the worst fighters, but the average Joes in the system - what are they like, what's the spread like in ability?

Ug Lee

SBG Ireland wrote: »

gunni and bj penn both got bbs in under 4yrs in bjj...however as bjj is 'testable' im sure neither would mind proving they know their art

How come gunni and bj penn got their blackbelt so soon? Is it because the trained more often, are more talented, trained harder or a combination or the above/

Just curious.

BobbyOLeary

Doug Cartel wrote: »

what's the spread like in ability?

This is it I think. I know plenty of black belts in trad styles who are tough, tough men. I also plenty of them who are not. With Judo and BJJ (only other MAs I have any experience with or know people in) however I've yet to meet someone who was a BB who wasn't tough and able to work their stuff.

I think the spread in ability is a little tighter with MAs that actively test themselves under live conditions.

da-bres

Ug Lee wrote: »

How come gunni and bj penn got their blackbelt so soon? Is it because the trained more often, are more talented, trained harder or a combination or the above/

Just curious.

All of the above. BJ isnt called the prodigy for no reason and Gunni is just a complete freak of nature!

I think Lyod Irvin got his black belt in under 4 years too.

I love seeing guys like braulio and ryan hall who didn get there blacks for a long time doing great in bjj competition, braulio is one of the best BJJ fighters on the planet and he always talks of how he used to get smashed in competitions as a blue belt, first five competitions, beaten in the first round.

abu dabi absolute champ 2009

SBG Ireland

Ug Lee wrote: »

How come gunni and bj penn got their blackbelt so soon? Is it because the trained more often, are more talented, trained harder or a combination or the above/

Just curious.

i can only speak for gunni as i dont know about bj's early training days...but i would hazzard a guess it was similar

simply put he got his 5000hrs in mat time in the time it'd take the average person 10years (http://www.infoniac.com/science/it-takes-10,000-hours-of-practice-to-become-a-genius.html). imo it takes about 5000hrs to become a bjj bb (solid technical knowledge in all areas) and then a further 5000 to become an 'expert' at it.

what most people describe as 'talent' usually is just time on the mat, but only every time

cletus

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

first of all i used the word system not style,in my limited experience in a lot of cases it is the man not the system. there is a reason that some systems are still around after between 100 and 400 years, they stood the test of time they just did not stand the test of some men...

Fine, system then. With regards to the age of a system, thats another discussion, but to further what Doug said below, Its what the "man", or in other words, the practitioners of a system do with that system that makes it what it is. In an extreme example, if all practitioners of bjj decided in the morning to stop copeting and pressure testing, then it would fundamentally change that system.

We constantly hear from "trad" martial artists that what certain people do is not the "real 'insert name here'". Yet it carries the name of that system

Doug Cartel wrote: »

No system is guaranteed to turn you into a badass, and some people win fights despite training in complete BS.

You can't look at these things on an individual level. You have to concentrate not on the best and the worst fighters, but the average Joes in the system - what are they like, what's the spread like in ability?

Niall Keane

BJJ is simply young; already belts can be gained on line through internet courses. The rot has begun, this is inevitable. Most people wish to be perceived as martial artists rather than train to be fighters.

People love to piggy back on the achievements of others. It’s a false logic, but one that many accept. Gracie beat the world, he does BJJ, I do BJJ, and I can beat the world.

Nothing new here, in 1850 in Beijing it would have been Yang is invincible, he does tai chi, if I do tai chi, I can be invincible.

Where as it is true that should someone sincerely train either of these systems, both of which require the practitioner to compete / cross hands, as their founders did, that then with practice and effort one can become a powerful fighter, the sad reality is that excellence is often surrounded by ineptitude, those wishing to live under the shadow instead of standing on the shoulders of the metaphorical giant.

The belt system to me facilitates this, it is a perceived badge of quality, and that’s fine if such is earned through non-bias testing say for example to become a blackbelt you must become a champion in an international etc. but once it is subjective it is open to abuse, and standards are set to slide. This also of course destroys the art in the public’s eyes, all it will take is a Gracie type personality from another style to pick out a genuine BJJ Blackbelt gained from the internet, or without too much real experience, i.e. without ring craft, set this person up to be taken apart by a semi-proficient exponent of his own style to demonstrate how his stuff can wipe the floor with BJJ. Sure some decent BJJ guy might come along and set the record straight. But the doubt has been planted, no longer is it BJJ that equals the quick fix, and so it loses popularity and credibility, now people realise that they have to work and that’s not what they’re after at all. And so the cycle continues down the decades – Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ......

Subjective assessment eventually becomes like a Tai Chi form competition, usually even the people judging such are devoid of martial virtue never mind the performers. An art that once was unbeatable in China is reduced to a dance. It only took 150 years! There are those of us, including my own teacher Dan Docherty who practice what the “industry” deem “practical” Tai Chi Chuan, and are seen as mavericks, anomalies, even on this board I have been questioned as to whether I’m really practicing Tai Chi Chuan as what I do works, and as such seems incongruent. See it doesn’t look like the same stuff the dancers do. It only takes 150 years!

My judgement may seem harsh, but through my gym doors I could not count the number of high level Dans that have come from other systems that at most times I could not differentiate from total beginners when it came to sparring. Often I've come across new students who are building site workers who have way better movement and agility, and ten times more power than lads who've paid a fortune out over the years for their belts to 3rd+ Dan. Maybe I’m getting soft as I get older, but it's very heart-breaking to see the realisation cross someone’s face that realises that they have wasted 10-15 years of their lives on stuff that doesn't work. I don't bring this home to them, I’m not as cruel as I used to be, the builder guy learning alongside them with me for just 2-3 months does by totally dominating them, not by power alone, which could be gained from swinging a sledge, but by being able to move with more fluidity that he has picked up in just three months unencumbered by the conditioned cage of false tradition imposed upon the blackbelt taught by lineages of non-fighting 33rd Dans or the likes.
I hope BJJ doesn’t become what every other art before has become, adulterated no infected by charlatans, I hope you discover a way all others have failed to find. And I hope all others here who still use belts are sincere and remain so. I just think it’s a big ask, a tall order. I say this from the perspective of a Tai Chi Chuan fighter, someone who has seen what he loves popularised and watered down, bastardised by those seeking undeserved respect and fame as teachers of the esoteric.

...for they are all there but one - I, Chingachgook - Last of the Mohicans.

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

BJJ is simply young;

It's older than Tae Kwon Do, even taking a conservative estimate of when it broke off from Judo.

already belts can be gained on line through internet courses. The rot has begun, this is inevitable.

There'll always be some form of rot. Organisms need immune systems to survive, martial arts systems aren't much different.

People love to piggy back on the achievements of others. It’s a false logic, but one that many accept.

I won't argue with that. Happens in all walks of life though. How many times have you heard a premiership football fan say the words "we won at the weekend" even though they spent the 90 minutes sat in front of the TV?

Yeah the belts are a problem when they start to become untested symbols of some supposed skill that is so deadly it must never be used, but they're also useful tools for organising classes where you have people of different skill levels, and for setting up divisions in competitions.

pearsquasher

Do Bujinkan instructors in general market themselves using their grade

Generally not.. they usually just mention their instructor licence on their "about" page. I include my own grade because I got asked a lot by new students what grade I was. I usually tell them and then discuss the whole ranking procedure in the Bujinkan emphasising the nature of the rank being a student-teacher thing.

EnjoyChoke

Fairly long winded post there Niall, so I'm not fully sure what your exact point is.
You seem to be comparing BJJ to other "Belt style" martial arts and citing its youth as the only differential in the effectiveness of the art.

BJJ (and Judo) are full contact, sports based, Martial arts. This makes them superior to "Martial Arts" that are not full contact and sports based.
The holy grail in BJJ is performance and belts are a direct reflection of this. There are very few other "belted martial arts" where this is the case.
You don't need to worry about BJJ becoming "infected", rolling will keep it pure.

HammerHeadGym

@ Enjoy Choke

I think the point Niall was trying to make is that BJJ is relatively new to the scence and political cliques and rifts havent had a chance to divide the community, as has happened in other martial arts.
As for Bjj not becoming infected, it's already too late mate. I'm sure you can name at least one club in this country where grades are not considered as good as other clubs.
Take the case of Lucan MMA. No one knew the teacher there, so they were written off without so much as an investigation. Not even a phone call, iirc.

OLDMAN1

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Fairly long winded post there Niall, so I'm not fully sure what your exact point is.
You seem to be comparing BJJ to other "Belt style" martial arts and citing its youth as the only differential in the effectiveness of the art.
This, as my old English teacher would say, is bollox.
BJJ (and Judo) are full contact, sports based, Martial arts. This makes them superior to "Martial Arts" that are not full contact and sports based.
The holy grail in BJJ is performance and belts are a direct reflection of this. There are very few other "belted martial arts" where this is the case.
You don't need to worry about BJJ becoming "infected", rolling will keep it pure.

easychoke ,you should read that again , it wasn't a insult to bjj