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Salary of a Lecturer

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Comments

  • #122
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Japer wrote: »
    Many of us know lots of people, be they partners, siblings, relations, good friends, neighbours, clubmates, etc who work in the 3rd level system, as it through talking to them how we know what a generally overpaid, underworked life that of a 3rd level lecturer is. Many of them who work in third level admit to very short working hours with lots + lots of holidays and days off. Some are complaining its difficult keeping up the repayment on their holiday homes. Tough.

    you seem to just edit that paragraph to suit each thread title :rolleyes:


  • #123
    avalon68
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭avalon68


    efla wrote: »
    May as well throw my hat in.... If only to address the nonsense two posts above.

    I work in a university, I am approaching the end of my PhD and over the past few years have taken on contract work in a number of other universities.

    We are generally not entitled to membership of IFUT or SIPTU, and contracts are typically subject to renewal every year, with three years being the maximum expected term.

    Most of the positions advertised are for 'assistant lecturers' on the new entrant salary scale, which begins at €33,000 (and very rarely are higher points on the scale conferred, especially when a fresh contract is drawn every year). After tax you may expect a salary in the mid-higher twenties.


    Apologies in advance for the brief reply , but I am still at work - I take from your post that you still have not obtained your PhD officially, so Im not surprised that you started at the bottom of the scale. I think it also raises the point about hiring policies (bringing in staff without full qualifications attained) - if you have been contracting out for the last few years, than how long have you been doing your PhD?


  • #124
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    maninasia wrote: »
    You talk about the US and top tier a lot..this bad American habit can get tiresome. Top tier....

    There have been numerous references in the thread to the international ranking of Irish universities and comparative salaries for lecturers/professors, so I think references to the US and 'top tier' institutions is actually pretty appropriate.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Thank you.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Are you advocating that one lecturer should be paid less for their work (despite having similar time served in a particular field) because the job prospects outside of the academic circle are minimal?

    The vast majority of lecturers, at least in the subjects I studied - could have worked outside college for a very decent wage. I would assume that this is true for most lecturers. So broadly speaking, it's largely irrelevant.

    If someone does a 2-year MBA at Harvard, and someone else does a 2-year masters in theology at Harvard, would you really expect them to come out and make the same amount of money, even though they went to the same school and spent the same amount of time on the degree? Universities pay faculty in part based on their alternative options - and people with a PhD in economics, math or physics can stay in academia, or make 10 times the money working for an investment bank.

    That said, few people who go the PhD route do it for the money - they do it because they love their field and the 'life of the mind'. Unfortunately, there are way more people who love literature or philosophy than there are lecturer/tenure-track positions, so a) they will be lucky to get a job, and b) whatever job they have they generally will be paid less than their colleagues in more 'practical' fields (and have fewer opportunities for outside consulting, etc).


  • #125
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    It is possible to earn 70 - 80K a year in a DIT here and not have to do any research. This would also include a big pension which would make the salary equivalent of 100K in the private sector. It would also include a considerable degree of job security and a low degree of stress, no performance targets for example.

    If you think that's a fair salay, I don't think you're not in touch with reality.

    Here's a lecturer job advertised for Liverpool university.
    http://www.ljmu.ac.uk/vacancies.asp
    http://www.ljmu.ac.uk/VacancyDetails.asp?VacancyRef=IRC431IN&VacancyID=4200

    This role includes research and guess what the salary is: £45,155.

    In the UK, these salaries are funded more by fees than they would be here.

    1. its a starter position in the ad, can you show me any lecturer in ireland who will or has started on 80K a year?

    2. there is a position on that same page which offers 90K sterling

    3. the third level system in general needs massive overhaul including the reintroduction of fees and lecturers need to be accountable and held to certain standards. having said that for a good phd educated lecturer with 5-10 years under their belt 70-80K is perfectly reasonable imo and there should be no upper limit. if someone is good enough show them the money
    avalon68 wrote: »
    I take from your post that you still have not obtained your PhD officially, so Im not surprised that you started at the bottom of the scale. I think it also raises the point about hiring policies (bringing in staff without full qualifications attained)

    while it helps you dont need a phd to be a lecturer there are plenty of lecturers with masters / multiple masters / multiple years real world experience


  • #126
    painwithnogain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭painwithnogain


    Lecturers may or may not be paid too much. I would think that they are not paid too much if they did what they are supposed to do. The 6 million dollar question is do they do what they are supposed to do.

    Take an IT lecturer. The vast majority of IT lecturers are at Lecturer Scale 1 or above. There are grades below that but the majority are not.

    Taking the pay for a Lecturer 1 pay scale it runs from 47k to 73k it might seem excessive but I would contend that it would depend on what is delivered for the 73k.

    From my experience it depends on the lecturer. Some are extremely dedicated and put in the hours. They have excellent notes, do research on their subjects and interact with the students well. Sadly these are in the minority.

    This is a typical year.

    On 1st September they must return to work. The following two-three weeks are spent attending a couple of department meetings and finalising their timetable.

    College officially begins on the second or third week of September. As there is registration, induction, sports and societies days there is little in the way of class contact hours for the first two weeks.

    Down to business. The next 8-10 weeks are spent doing the 16 contracted hours per week. Don’t forget that there are usually 2 'holy days' in this period and 3 graduation days during which there is no work.

    Christmas is getting close. Exams. What this means is that there is a study week followed by an exams week. This takes it to the Christmas holidays, which is two weeks.

    Back to work but not teaching. A week to correct exams is in order just to 'wean' them back in. In case I forget to mention these exams papers that are corrected attract a premium of 6-8 euro each depending on the numbers of students that a lecturer has to deal with.

    Thankfully back to work now and what follows are 13-15 weeks of Term 2 with an interruption of 2 weeks for Easter. Again there are 'holy days' in this term depending on when Easter falls. Not to be forgotten is the 'bonus' of Rag Week, which is another 3-4 days off depending on the college.

    April brings the change of time and the longer days. Just so that Lecturers can make the most of this classes end at the end of April but this depends on when Easter falls. A late Easter leaving only 1 or 2 weeks after the break could mean classes could end with Easter.

    Exams again for the month of May. Correct them again before the Exam Board meetings in June. These Board meetings are held before June 20th when the Summer Holidays begin.

    Now a few stats and observations.

    Lecturers are contracted to teach 550 hours a year.

    Lecturers are expected to do the work outside this to produce their notes and keep updated on their subject matter.

    Lecturers are expected to be available to meet with students who may have issues or trouble with a subject

    Lecturers would be expected to be experts in their chosen subject matter.

    What actually happens?

    From my observations lecturers actually teach 350 hours a year.

    Lazy lecturers and there are a lot of them copy their notes from the Internet, from old lecturers notes, from books, journals, magazines. Once notes are produced they last for years.

    From first hand experience trying to find some lecturers for a meeting can prove harder than trying to find hens teeth. I would estimate that lecturers of this nature could total as much as 30-40%.

    Experts on their chosen subject matter. Now that’s a joke. Yes there would be 3 or 4 in every 10 who are top notch but that would be the limit of it. A lot of the academic staff in colleges come through the degree, masters, PhD path. They do some post college research, which for the most part is insignificant. The are not necessary intelligent. They have good memories, attend class, memorise what they are told and regurgitate it. They get so good at regurgitate it they can take a couple of books, magazines, journals coupled with some internet research and reproduce it as a PhD. A couple of years in some research project, which never comes to anything and he bingo, they land an academic job. Thus the cycle begins.


    Paid too much? Make up your own mind.


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  • #127
    Lockstep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    painwithnogain wrote: »
    They get so good at regurgitate it they can take a couple of books, magazines, journals coupled with some internet research and reproduce it as a PhD.

    This was my favorite bit. Do you have any idea how much work goes into a PHD at all?


  • #128
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    They get so good at regurgitate it they can take a couple of books, magazines, journals coupled with some internet research and reproduce it as a PhD.
    This was my favorite bit. Do you have any idea how much work goes into a PHD at all?

    Where can I get a PhD by doing this, one would look nice on my CV.
    Maybe http://www.UniversalDegrees.com


  • #129
    Ostrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    avalon68 wrote: »
    Apologies in advance for the brief reply , but I am still at work - I take from your post that you still have not obtained your PhD officially, so Im not surprised that you started at the bottom of the scale. I think it also raises the point about hiring policies (bringing in staff without full qualifications attained) - if you have been contracting out for the last few years, than how long have you been doing your PhD?

    I may have misrepresented myself - I am not on a formal contract. There are 'contract' staff, who attend formal interviews, respond to job postings, and take on all the responsibilities of a tenured member, but without security of tenure. The second grouping, into which I fall are what the unions refer to as 'pink-slip' workers. We take on individual modules as they arise from lecturers on sabbaticals, sick or maternity leave, secondments, or in departments where most teaching is usually conducted by mid-late PhD's (I will explain how it works with reference to my own career path in a moment). It is this 'pink-slip' regime that pays (considering an average years teaching load) around minimum wage, so I am not on any salary scale. It will be some time before I will be in a position to compete for one.

    With regard to my suitability - I took an optional postgraduate certificate in teaching and learning during the first semester of my PhD, which was examined through course and module design portfolio. Concurrently, I was tutoring first years on our undergraduate programme which is the norm for most new entrants. After three semesters of this, I took on a contract module at another university - notice was issued for a PhD student (as is typical with modules like this - the departments dont usually go to the trouble of hiring a full-timer if it is just one class. These one-class vacancies are fairly common and many depend on them for funding).

    My latter experience was with adult education departments - all of their teaching is contracted out to people like myself. In both cases, I had to submit a course outline to the department head for approval. As he is obliged to submit sample course material and assessment to the external examiner (who does have the authority to kick up if something is out of place), the incentive is usually to be careful with selection. I was accountable to both him and the absent professor throughout the course, my students submitted grading sheets on my performance at the end of term, and my assessment procedures were subject to review before approval by the exams office.

    As to the issue of lazy late career staff - I just dont see it. Our senior professor retired late last year and is now producing more than he was during his tenure. There is an adjunct professor whom I know in a building across from ours whom I talk with regularly; he is 75, and is now averaging around one publication (article) per month. Our professor of geography 'retired' recently and hasn't (nor probably will) vacate his office for a few years - and he is still contributing to teaching and course design, and working on a few books and papers.

    Final post - I think I have said enough. From my experience, nothing of what I have read on this thread sounds familiar. You dont get a job without a lengthy CV of teaching experience or publication, and you simply cant force yourself to produce review-worthy material, it is impossible if you dont love what you do. Again, maybe my experience is exceptional - I have had bad lecturers in the past. But the system is so competitive now, and the unions have engineered a contract system that seems to keep wages permanantly deflated amongst new entrants - so I wouldn't worry about value for money in future.

    More importantly, the checks against nepotism (which undoubtedly played a significant role in the past - you can see it plainly in many departments still amongst more senior staff) - seem to be fairly solid.


  • #130
    RonMexico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,916 ✭✭✭RonMexico


    @painwithnogain - Have you got a PhD? I'm two years into mine and it doesn't even remotely resemble what you are talking about. I work as a tutor during the college year and get paid €860 a month. From June until the end of October I don't get paid at all. As I need every spare minute to work on my thesis I don't have time for a part time job. I have another year to go - obtaining a PhD is tough work. The end result is that I will more than likely have to emigrate. Some of the comments in this thread are woefully ignorant.


  • #131
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    the unions have engineered a contract system that seems to keep wages permanantly deflated amongst new entrants

    Please explain how the unions have "engineered" this. Cut price contracts are in the interest of employers and would be there anyway in the absence of unions.


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  • #132
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #133
    Ostrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Please explain how the unions have "engineered" this. Cut price contracts are in the interest of employers and would be there anyway in the absence of unions.

    Recent example; senior admin threatening sanctions toward contract staff for picketing during last years day of action, which put many in the position of having to cross pickets manned by colleagues, and ensuring year-to-year renewals to avoid granting tenure.

    Despite what you may think, I dont consider living year to year with no employment security or prospects of advancement in the interest of the employee. They have taken advantage of circumstance - during times of shortage, permanant positions were offered as needed, with terms of employment to attract suitable staff; they dont need to do this anymore. As to why, I can only interpret from observation. Control over internal promotions? Protection of perks? Comfrotable timetabling? Pandering to senior admin?

    Obviously my position on this is personal so I dont think we will reach agreement, most of us are fairly resentful of how the unions have behaved. Since pink-slip workers have neither contractual protection nor union representation, they take advantage of this by cutting our pay year to year (which they were doing pre-07 anyway).

    You are correct, it is great for the employer.


  • #134
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Please explain how the unions have "engineered" this. Cut price contracts are in the interest of employers and would be there anyway in the absence of unions.
    Usually people on temp contracts get paid more than people on permanent contracts. This follows normal supply / demand economics.
    Less people want the risks associated with a temp contract not to mention the facts that you don't get sick pay, holiday pay, pension etc.

    In the Irish public service which doesn't follow normal economics, it's the other way around. It's too expensive to give someone a permanent contract. because the Unions have insisted on high wages. Schools and Universitities can't afford these wages. So to buck this, they employ temp staff which don't have union representation and hence have wages that are market rates following normal supply / demand.

    However in the insanity that is the public sector, temp workers are paid less because their wages follow a supply / demand curve whereas permanent workers are insulated from normal supply / demand economics as their wages are negotiated by a vested interest - their unions.

    If anything this shows how ridiculously over paid full time public sector workers are. They should be only getting 65% max of what someone doing the same job on a temp contract should be getting. They are probably getting 150% of it. Insane. So in my imprecise collections, the lecturer doing no research getting 70 - 80K with no performance targets and great perks should only be getting about 35K - 40K a year. I see no logical reason why it should be anymore.


  • #135
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I'd agree with that except for the fact that the only reason why lucrative careers exists in law and medicine is because these professions are not competitive enough. They are closed shops and insulated from real market forces. They can make a lot of money and never invent anything. never export anything, never take any risk. It's victorian economics which has no place in a modern economy where high salaries should be based on fair and and open competitive success.


  • #136
    painwithnogain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭painwithnogain


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    This was my favorite bit. Do you have any idea how much work goes into a PHD at all?

    YES in fact I do!


  • #137
    painwithnogain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭painwithnogain


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    So in my imprecise collections, the lecturer doing no research getting 70 - 80K with no performance targets and great perks should only be getting about 35K - 40K a year. I see no logical reason why it should be anymore.

    Correct. You have it all summed up there.


  • #138
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    What a stingy crowd, looking jealously at others' wages and saying "He's not worth it, should be earning less".

    I have a better suggestion. What about a single standard wage for all work? That'll stop all this grousing. Those who love their work will work harder, those who don't won't.


  • #139
    Lockstep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    painwithnogain wrote: »
    YES in fact I do!

    You clearly don't if you think it involves a few books and some internet research. YOu made no mention of primary sources or any such thing.
    My older brother just got a scholarship to study in Florence. The scholarship runs for 5 years but they've told him the typical time to complete it is 4.
    It goes even longer if you do it part time; my old man was doing it while working so it took him a fair few years.

    PHDs take 4-5 years to do (longer in the US) and are usually over 120 pages. Not something that can be done with a couple of books and magazines.

    Also, you seem to think that a few years of research work is enough to land an academic job. This isn't the case. Your chances of finding any work is practically zero if you're unpublished and even then, you could be waiting for years before finding anything, especially if it's in the humanities.


  • #140
    zootroid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭zootroid


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    What a stingy crowd, looking jealously at others' wages and saying "He's not worth it, should be earning less".

    I have a better suggestion. What about a single standard wage for all work? That'll stop all this grousing. Those who love their work will work harder, those who don't won't.

    Or a group of people concerned with the current budget deficit looking at where the tax they pay is being spent, and pointing out, in their opinion, where money isn't being spent as well as it should be. Surely people have a right to do so?

    I'm a public sector employee by the way (semi state)


  • #141
    AARRRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    Begrudgers. Cant go anywhere in Ireland without meeting them.
    If people spent more time in developing their own prospects in life instead of trying to complain about the life the other guy has made for himself, then we might get somewhere.


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  • #142
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    AARRRRGH wrote: »
    Begrudgers. Cant go anywhere in Ireland without meeting them.
    If people spent more time in developing their own prospects in life instead of trying to complain about the life the other guy has made for himself, then we might get somewhere.
    What about the notion that you have done all you can for yourself - we'll take you for example (you like to harp on about how well you are doing because you stuck it to the man).

    What if our taxes were better spent so we could have better services, infrastructure etc and it wouldn't cost as much in taxes to run the country.

    It goes beyond what we ourselves can achieve personally as we all pay taxes


  • #143
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    People have a right to be concerned with how their money is being spent, especially as this isn't enough to go around. But threads here usually discuss endlessly jobs of which the posters know little and stereotypes are bandied about to little useful purpose.

    Education is much discussed here, because educators work in the public eye to a large extent and everyone has had a teacher they didn't like or a lecturer whose lectures weren't clear. But in the overall picture education is one of the areas of Irish public expenditure where efficiency is well up there when compared to other European countries, which cannot be said of all public expenditure. Even in the middle of a boom (2000-2006) Ireland increased its third level expenditure by half the amount of the UK and made do with 80% of the spending per student as the UK and three quarters of the spending of places likes Germany, Netherlands or Sweden and these amounts are almost certainly being cut here more than in those places.

    The real threat to public expenditure is not frontline services, although of course these too must be run well too. It is hidden bureaucracy which doesn't lead to any useful outcome whatsoever and which is ever increasing in size because not having a clear mission it cannot be easily measured if it is performing this mission. Since much of this is invisible to the public they aren't talking about it and so the system is not reformed.


  • #144
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    AARRRRGH wrote: »
    Begrudgers. Cant go anywhere in Ireland without meeting them.
    If people spent more time in developing their own prospects in life instead of trying to complain about the life the other guy has made for himself, then we might get somewhere.
    So someone makes well substantiated points about our state wasting precious money and all of sudden they are begrudgers. That's the sort of snide comment that prevents meaningful and objective debate.


  • #145
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    I have a better suggestion. What about a single standard wage for all work? That'll stop all this grousing. Those who love their work will work harder, those who don't won't.
    Communism in every form has failed. Our state in its current structure is also failing. Some of us want things to change.


  • #146
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,390 ✭✭✭doc_17


    ardmacha wrote: »
    The real threat to public expenditure is not frontline services, although of course these too must be run well too. It is hidden bureaucracy which doesn't lead to any useful outcome whatsoever and which is ever increasing in size because not having a clear mission it cannot be easily measured if it is performing this mission. Since much of this is invisible to the public they aren't talking about it and so the system is not reformed.

    Exactly. Take education or Health. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the workforce in either department are frontline. The layers of bureaucracy and quangos have to be tackled before any cuts to front line staff.


  • #147
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    It would be interesting to know what percentage of the workforce in either department are frontline.

    It would also be interesting to know if those proportions have increased or dcreased.


  • #148
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    We must all know unfortunate postdocs in their 40s and 50s who will never have the security of a civil service job and lavish pension enjoyed by many of the posters here.


  • #149
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #150
    AARRRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You got that part I bolded right anyway. But its not that these unambitious young people dream of becoming teachers, guards and nurses. Its that they really hate to see anyone else do well for themselves. They want everything taken off others so they dont have to feel like wasters themselves.

    I bet most of the begrudgers are paying the lower rate of tax or no tax at all.
    Effectively being subsidized themselves by the very people they love to moan about, and then crying that their tax is not being spent well.
    They got themselves sh1it jobs and are sickened looking at anyone who bothered to think about how their career would pan out and actually got themselves a nice job.


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  • #151
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    AARRRRGH wrote: »
    You got that part I bolded right anyway. But its not that these unambitious young people dream of becoming teachers, guards and nurses. Its that they really hate to see anyone else do well for themselves. They want everything taken off others so they dont have to feel like wasters themselves.

    I bet most of the begrudgers are paying the lower rate of tax or no tax at all.
    Effectively being subsidized themselves by the very people they love to moan about, and then crying that their tax is not being spent well.
    They got themselves sh1it jobs and are sickened looking at anyone who bothered to think about how their career would pan out and actually got themselves a nice job.
    You just don't get it, I don't have a sh1t job and I have a good wage. I am happy with where I am in life and where my career is progressing. I don't begrudge other people though for their choices.

    I do begrudge having to pay a large % of my wages to pay for crap or nonexistent services I receive. This I believe is true of a lot of the people in this country be they our elite and smartest or the people that are at the lower end and have crap jobs.


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