Salary of a Lecturer

RichardAnd

WalterMitty wrote: »

Yeah and i doubt the american lecturer in private institution has the gold plated pension that his Irish public sector equivalent has.

Probably not. Universities in the USA are very different to our own, I used to work for one

southsiderosie

RichardAnd wrote: »

Probably not. Universities in the USA are very different to our own, I used to work for one

That's also assuming professors actually retire...at my home university, there are quite a few who will keel over in the stacks before they actually step down.

My observation based on my experience with both Irish and American universities is that the top-tier US universities are far better resourced than their Irish counterparts, but alumni contributions are a far bigger factor in the budgets of U.S. universities than European unis in general. Plus, students in the US pay huge fees. I'd like to think there is a happy medium, but debt and questionable pensions notwithstanding, I still think I prefer the US system.

RichardAnd

southsiderosie wrote: »

That's also assuming professors actually retire...at my home university, there are quite a few who will keel over in the stacks before they actually step down.

My observation based on my experience with both Irish and American universities is that the top-tier US universities are far better resourced than their Irish counterparts, but alumni contributions are a far bigger factor in the budgets of U.S. universities than European unis in general. Plus, students in the US pay huge fees. I'd like to think there is a happy medium, but debt and questionable pensions notwithstanding, I still think I prefer the US system.

Can't argue there. We have a few decent colleges like Trinity and UCD and I suppose DCU (where I went) isn't too bad though their bureaucracy can be insane at times. But the standard has been pulled down in recent years in my opinion. However, I am confident that once fees come back, the standard will be raised as colleges start to compete with each other to get fee paying students to study with them.

doc_17

If the fees come in then I'd like to see people given the option of paying it yearly or as a graduate tax once you earn over a certain threshold. That way noone can turn round and say I couldn't afford the fees.

RichardAnd

doc_17 wrote: »

If the fees come in then I'd like to see people given the option of paying it yearly or as a graduate tax once you earn over a certain threshold. That way noone can turn round and say I couldn't afford the fees.

Yeah but the problem with graduate tax is that if someone jumps ship and emigrates, the state doesn't get their money back. I think personal loans, as is common in the US, would be the best way as this would make people very cautious about the courses they choose so the state won't be paying millions to keep courses like Basket Weaving or Health & Safety afloat.

southsiderosie

RichardAnd wrote: »

Yeah but the problem with graduate tax is that if someone jumps ship and emigrates, the state doesn't get their money back. I think personal loans, as is common in the US, would be the best way as this would make people very cautious about the courses they choose so the state won't be paying millions to keep courses like Basket Weaving or Health & Safety afloat.

I agree, but just to clarify, the Federal Loan Program is very flexible about repayment, and will make adjustments based on employment status, income, etc. But, yes, I think having some financial responsibility for your education would make people less cavalier about their school choices (unless mommy and daddy are footing the bill, but that is a different can of worms altogether).

RichardAnd

southsiderosie wrote: »

I agree, but just to clarify, the Federal Loan Program is very flexible about repayment, and will make adjustments based on employment status, income, etc. But, yes, I think having some financial responsibility for your education would make people less cavalier about their school choices (unless mommy and daddy are footing the bill, but that is a different can of worms altogether).

That's true but daddy picking up the tab is one problem that will never go away so long as there are spoiled rich kids which there will ever be

Laminations

RichardAnd wrote: »

Yeah but the problem with graduate tax is that if someone jumps ship and emigrates, the state doesn't get their money back. I think personal loans, as is common in the US, would be the best way as this would make people very cautious about the courses they choose so the state won't be paying millions to keep courses like Basket Weaving or Health & Safety afloat.

Can you find me a link to a university course in basket weaving or health and safety or would you like to refer to the actual courses you think are a waste of time?

WalterMitty

RichardAnd wrote: »

That's true but daddy picking up the tab is one problem that will never go away so long as there are spoiled rich kids which there will ever be

Hey! The George Bushes of this world need an education too!

Gurgle

RichardAnd wrote: »

daddy picking up the tab is one problem that will never go away

Fees are paid, kid graduates or drops out.
Whats the problem with this?

RichardAnd

Laminations wrote: »

Can you find me a link to a university course in basket weaving or health and safety or would you like to refer to the actual courses you think are a waste of time?

No I can't and I'm not bothered. I don't consider basket weaving to be a waste of time per say, and I apologist if my post suggested that. I simply wished to make the point that it is not a course the state should be paying for. Health and Safety, well that is a load of rubbish.

maninasia

RichardAnd wrote: »

Can't argue there. We have a few decent colleges like Trinity and UCD and I suppose DCU (where I went) isn't too bad though their bureaucracy can be insane at times. But the standard has been pulled down in recent years in my opinion. However, I am confident that once fees come back, the standard will be raised as colleges start to compete with each other to get fee paying students to study with them.

The US has its star colleges and universities but also has about the same percentage of DITS/Institutes/Junior Colleges...just depends which one you attend.

maninasia

RichardAnd wrote: »

Yeah but the problem with graduate tax is that if someone jumps ship and emigrates, the state doesn't get their money back. I think personal loans, as is common in the US, would be the best way as this would make people very cautious about the courses they choose so the state won't be paying millions to keep courses like Basket Weaving or Health & Safety afloat.

This obviously is the way to go. Get a loan, go to college, pay back the loan. Then there is no excuse about not being able to afford to get an education and people take their studies more seriously.

dlofnep

A good, and enthusiastic lecturer is worth their weight in gold. However, I've come across a few lecturers who did not earn their keep, and literally did nothing.

A lecturer of mine while I was in WIT sat around all class looking at the internet, and didn't teach us anything. Not an iota. His reward? A permanent position on the staff.

I've no problem with the wages of a lecturer. It requires 7 years of college, which costs an extreme amount of money. People don't take into account the commitment that someone must put in before ever even being considered for a position in lecturing. The cost of going from first year in college to finishing your PhD is immense. The amount of work required is immense - So I don't see why lecturers shouldn't get paid a fair salary.

kuntboy

dlofnep wrote: »

I've no problem with the wages of a lecturer.

This attitude is why our politicians get away with ripping us off. Nobody's wages should be untouchable.

It requires 7 years of college, which costs an extreme amount of money.
People don't take into account the commitment that someone must put in before ever even being considered for a position in lecturing. The cost of going from first year in college to finishing your PhD is immense.

The majority of the cost of the lecturer's education is paid by the state.

The amount of work required is immense - So I don't see why lecturers shouldn't get paid a fair salary.

Why should the unions decide what is "fair"?

PeakOutput

kuntboy wrote: »

This attitude is why our politicians get away with ripping us off. Nobody's wages should be untouchable.

all he said was he osnt ahve a problem with the salaries as they are now he didnt say they should be untouchable

i also dont have a problem with their salaries, i think there should be better ways off getting rid of the crap but that goes for the entire public sector

The majority of the cost of the lecturer's education is paid by the state.

only if they are irish i think only one of my lecturers was educated in ireland

Why should the unions decide what is "fair"?

they are one group of many who decide what is fair between them

i have no problem with an unlimited salary potential for someone who really deserves it and i think the really great lecturers and researchers do deserve it. we just gotta figure out how to get rid of the crap ones

dlofnep

kuntboy wrote: »

This attitude is why our politicians get away with ripping us off. Nobody's wages should be untouchable.

What attitude? My belief that lecturers in most part, have earned their right to be paid a good wage? I never said anybody's wage should be untouchable. I believe that lecturers work hard, and have spent many years to get where they are. A lecturer's wage needs to be comparable to the going rate in their respective field, otherwise there is no incentive for them to lecturer, as they could just go out into the private workforce and earn more.

kuntboy wrote: »

The majority of the cost of the lecturer's education is paid by the state.

And the majority of the people who attend the said colleges are educated by the state. What's your point? Cut back wages, and you'll lose good lecturers who will emmigrate abroad to earn a just wage, or will move into the private sector working for a better wage. The students will suffer.

kuntboy wrote: »

Why should the unions decide what is "fair"?

Why should you decide what's fair?

Nijmegen

And the majority of the people who attend the said colleges are educated by the state. What's your point? Cut back wages, and you'll lose good lecturers who will emmigrate abroad to earn a just wage, or will move into the private sector working for a better wage. The students will suffer.

The linking of student outcomes to teacher pay, at all levels, is a clever ploy. But it is just that: A ploy.

Pay them less and they may go elsewhere, where the pay is better... Such as?

We don't have a Harvard, or a London School of Economics. That comes back to the quality of our teaching staff.

So, if we pay less they won't be running off to find jobs in other triple-A institutions.

It's the same red herring used to justify our bankers salaries: To keep the talent from running away... To where, we were never quite sure.

ardmacha

only if they are irish i think only one of my lecturers was educated in ireland

To keep the talent from running away... To where, we were never quite sure.

This is an international business. Some Irish people might not move, but will simply become demoralised, but many of the most able will move and these non Irish will for sure.

southsiderosie

Nijmegen wrote: »

The linking of student outcomes to teacher pay, at all levels, is a clever ploy. But it is just that: A ploy.

Pay them less and they may go elsewhere, where the pay is better... Such as?

We don't have a Harvard, or a London School of Economics. That comes back to the quality of our teaching staff.

So, if we pay less they won't be running off to find jobs in other triple-A institutions.

It's the same red herring used to justify our bankers salaries: To keep the talent from running away... To where, we were never quite sure.

You may be thinking about this backwards. Irish universities use high wages in part to attract faculty from abroad. The market for PhDs from top tier universities - especially American universities - is international.

Lockstep

2Scoops wrote: »

Practically all junior lecturers in the country are on less than 40k. A full lectureship is not a typical starting position anymore, the same way most newly minted teachers from St. Pat's won't walk in as headmaster. And postdocs are only relevant in the sciences, afaik.

THis is true (to my knowledge anyway)

My old man is a temporary (contracted) lecturer (B.A, M.A, H.Dip, PHD, published author etc) in an Irish university. He's been doing the job for around 3 years and currently works as head of a degree program. He earns around €37k, IIRC.

What I don't think a lot of people in this thread realise is that lecturing is a part of the job, not the whole of it. Research and publishing are necessary parts of the job (which is why lecturers have comparitively few teaching hours)

tonto2010

kickoutthejams wrote: »

THis is true (to my knowledge anyway)

My old man is a temporary (contracted) lecturer (B.A, M.A, H.Dip, PHD, published author etc) in an Irish university. He's been doing the job for around 3 years and currently works as head of a degree program. He earns around €37k, IIRC.

What I don't think a lot of people in this thread realise is that lecturing is a part of the job, not the whole of it. Research and publishing are necessary parts of the job (which is why lecturers have comparitively few teaching hours)

37k and the summer off, not to be sniffed at!

Lockstep

tonto2010 wrote: »

37k and the summer off, not to be sniffed at!

They may not be lecturing during the summer but as I previously pointed out, lecturing is only one part of the job; they also need to do the research their position requires, research work for publication, supervise their graduate students and so on. Work for this continues during the summer months.

maninasia

southsiderosie wrote: »

You may be thinking about this backwards. Irish universities use high wages in part to attract faculty from abroad. The market for PhDs from top tier universities - especially American universities - is international.

You talk about the US and top tier a lot..this bad American habit can get tiresome. Top tier....

Nijmegen

southsiderosie wrote: »

You may be thinking about this backwards. Irish universities use high wages in part to attract faculty from abroad. The market for PhDs from top tier universities - especially American universities - is international.

So, where's my world class universities?

There is no joined up strategy for creating any.

The pay of lecturers is like the pay of most other public servants: Highly inflated during the boom for political points scoring.

If you want world class talent, pay them more, on a case by case basis, same as when we hire in the private sector.

dlofnep

Nijmegen wrote: »

So, where's my world class universities?

There is no joined up strategy for creating any.

The pay of lecturers is like the pay of most other public servants: Highly inflated during the boom for political points scoring.

If you want world class talent, pay them more, on a case by case basis, same as when we hire in the private sector.

But people are paid based on their experience.

ardmacha

The pay of lecturers is like the pay of most other public servants: Highly inflated during the boom for political points scoring.

Lecturers pay did increase during the boom, along with other salaries, in order to pay for the high prices generated by private sector speculation. These increases have now been removed.

Nijmegen

dlofnep wrote: »

But people are paid based on their experience.

Tenure, they call that. I believe it produces excellent results.

Lecturers pay did increase during the boom, along with other salaries, in order to pay for the high prices generated by private sector speculation. These increases have now been removed.

I'd keep drilling till I hit hard rock: The price at which I can't get good people.

I don't believe we're there.

ardmacha

I don't believe we're there.

And this belief is based on what, exactly? Are you a third level recruiter?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.