Salary of a Lecturer

Tim Robbins

I was just thinking about this. Everyone gives out teachers are paid too much.
If you are a lecturer you get even more and if you don't have to publish any papers you still get a lot more.

For example these posts in Maynooth range from

€50,808 - €81,452

http://www.careerjet.ie/job/968246fd74e21f7534bb3196aeec3fbe.html

Is it just me or does this seem to be exceedingly high?

I'm thinking in terms or hours and stress both would be fairly low.

Discuss...

RichardAnd

It is exceedingly high and in many cases, completely un-deserved for what alot of lecturers do.

graduate

Lecturers have twice as much third level education as teachers and work all year round, so earning a third more than teachers hardly seems excessive. One imagines that a person with insight into inovation management would have good prospects in any case.

completely un-deserved for what alot of lecturers do

Once again the supposed person that is not doing their job, this should not establish a salary for those who do their job.

Pete_Cavan

A lecturer at DIT gets a salary between €53,607 and €83,811. Here is a link to where the salary scales at DIT can be found; http://www.dit.ie/services/hr/resourcing/leave/salary-scales/

I have just finished in DIT Bolton Street and this is a disgrace when you see how much work these people do. For a final year exam one of our lecturers (a particularly lazy one) gave us a multiple choice question exam which we did on a computer and was corrected automatically there and then so the lecturer did not have to do anything.

The reason the exam was MCQ was becuase the lecturer hates reading and correcting essay style questions, he even told us so (that he hates correcting essay style questions not that he made it MCQ to make life easier for himself but it was pretty obvious). And as further proof of his lazyness, if it is needed, the majority of the questions were exactly the same as they had been for the past four years, exact same question with the exact same answer!

Everybody got in and around 70% becuase we got the questions we made seen before right and the ones we had not seen before wrong. It was a test to see of many of the answers we could commit to short term memory and in no way gave us an understanding of what we should be learning. It was an absolutely pointless exercise and the mark in no way reflected that persons knowledge of the subject yet it goes towards our final degree grade.

I also know he gave the exact same MCQ exam to another course (they both share that module) this year, although they had to tick the box on a page with a pen so he actually had to read theirs. The same lecturer wants to remove the thesis from the course and was always telling us how boring they are to read! We were supposed to get a form to fill out at the end of the year to rate the module, lecturer, resourses, etc. (I think they are called Q6 forms in DIT) but most lecturers dont give us them.

I reckon this guy is a senior lecturer so his salary is between €74,006 and €91,021. I think it is very wrong that he gets paid that much and can manipulate the course to minimise the amount of work he has to do and make things as easy as possible for himself.

Id also like to add that our economics lecturer told us she was opposed to the public sector workers strikes last year but she had to picket and that she was never given the opportunity to vote for or against the strikes, the union made the decision so she was forced to picket.

2Scoops

Just to be fair, the starting salary for a lecturer is more in the region of €35k, not 50k. By the time you can work your way up to full lecturer's salary, you'll have been in the biz for many years, so it's roughly the same pay as a secondary school teacher.

As for stress etc. it's certainly easier stress-wise than teaching children, IMO. But lecturing is about more than teaching (for some). It's the de facto academic research position in the country, so it can involve lots of research, grant-writing etc.

Nolanger

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Is it just me or does this seem to be exceedingly high?

Nope, in this country those who can do while those who can't teach - they get paid a lotta dosh because they can't do :mad:

graduate

Note how the DIT lecturer, who has no contractual obligations at this time of year has a higher scale than the university lecturer, who does. Such was the logic of benchmarking, it depended on the nature of your union. University lecturers got the lowest increase, while those in ITs got teacher style increases.

Nope, in this country those who can do while those who can't teach

There are plenty of examples of people from Chris Horn to Patrick Houlihan of people choosing to teach while also being more able than most.

Nolanger

They choose to teach because it's the easy and safe option. This country has too many teachers and not enough doers.

Welease

I'd like to think we could set the salary high enough to attract the best into teaching..

But without any form of meritocracy in place (that I know of), it's difficult to ensure the weakest get removed from the system, and the best flourish and get compensated for their skills.

RonMexico

Are some lecturers overpaid? Yes. Are some lecturers incompetant and ineffective at their job? Yes.

But you can't tar them all with the same brush. A lot of people here are making broad sweeping generalisations without a clue as to what work lecturers really do. Like everything on boards really.

Nolanger

Most of my lecturers were rubbish. Book memorising idiots with no real experience of what they were teaching. No wonder Irish colleges place so badly in the world rankings.

doolox

Primary school teachers need three years to get their qualification and have the shortest hours in the profession.
The energy required to handle under12's however must be quite high and must make the class contact time very intensive.
Secondary teachers need to do a post grad diploma after a minimum 3 year, sometimes 4 year Bachelors degree programme, i'm guessing it takes 4-5 years to do this depending on the subjects.

While the hours are slightly longer the energy levels needed are probably the same as those in primary teachers so their days are intense if the students happen to be difficult. I'd guess that those in honours classes, being more motivated, are easier to teach but more demanding intellectually, it probably helps to like your subjects a lot. It must be hell teaching disinterested students in pass classes.

In third level many lecturers especially in science and engineering, could get good jobs in industry and indeed many have come from industry through getting Masters from a basic level of Education, craft or trade and working up through the various levels on the National framework of Qualifications to a level sufficient for 3rd level teaching.
Many have to undertake years of temporary posts, contract hours and unsecure positions in order to get enough experience to capture a full-time position. Of course there is a risk that their performance will drop off once the permanency is achieved but it is up to the higher authorities to police this. Colleges need to pay well to keep these people attracted to teaching.

All too often students like to blame lecturers for their own shortcomings and it is hard to measure teaching performance as easily as one can measure industrial or retail/service performance.

It will be interesting to see if wages for lecturers comes down in line with wages generally especially those in industry. Also it will be interesting to see if performance metrics similar to those in other industries will be tolerated by the teaching unions.

RichardAnd

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Everybody got in and around 70% becuase we got the questions we made seen before right and the ones we had not seen before wrong. It was a test to see of many of the answers we could commit to short term memory and in no way gave us an understanding of what we should be learning. It was an absolutely pointless exercise and the mark in no way reflected that persons knowledge of the subject yet it goes towards our final degree grade.

This paragraph perfectly describes the education system in Ireland. Passing tests is a dreadful way of measuring a person's abilities but in this country, it's taken a step further in the wrong direction.

graduate

But without any form of meritocracy in place (that I know of),

Well I work in a university. My students are among the brightest in the country and they choose my course in the first place, they fill in course evaluations, they comment on my work at staff/student meetings, an external examiner reviews the content of my courses, accreditation bodies come around from time to time to ensure that international standards are upheld, if I submit a paper to a conference or journal it is reviewed by a panel of international experts from all over the world. Where in the private sector, never mind the public sector is there more concern for merit? Note that the post above is a three year contract, at the end of this period the person will probably be thrown out, whether they show merit or not, to redirect money to bankers.

Welease

graduate wrote: »

Well I work in a university. My students are among the brightest in the country and they choose my course in the first place, they fill in course evaluations, they comment on my work at staff/student meetings, an external examiner reviews the content of my courses, accreditation bodies come around from time to time to ensure that international standards are upheld, if I submit a paper to a conference or journal it is reviewed by a panel of international experts from all over the world. Where in the private sector, never mind the public sector is there more concern for merit? Note that the post above is a three year contract, at the end of this period the person will probably be thrown out, whether they show merit or not, to redirect money to bankers.

Are you held up against all other lecturer's in your institution, and pay rises handed out based on a merit scale.. with the lowest getting 0 pay rise?

Because in my job, I have all the above you mentioned, and my pay at the end of the year is based on how I compare with my direct colleagues, with the best getting the greatest pay rises, and the worst receiving 0.

If you are great, but that doesn't seem to be the standard for Education in Ireland.

Edit - And to reinforce my original post.. I am in favour of top wages for academics, but only those who are the cream should be paid the top.. those who are failing (and there are those who are) need to identified and removed from the system.

#15

doolox wrote: »

Primary school teachers need three years to get their qualification and have the shortest hours in the profession.

Incorrect, primary teachers have more hours than secondary.

Not the shortest hours in the profession.

jock101

Lectures are underpaided here in my view, The State should reintroduce Tuition fees to pay for third level education.:)

ei.sdraob

lets inject some stats into the thread, too much waffle so far

based on october 2007 cso data

the education sector is THE PLACE TO BE

not just lecturers, teaching too...

RichardAnd

ei.sdraob wrote: »

lets inject some stats into the thread, too much waffle so far

based on october 2007 cso data

the education sector is THE PLACE TO BE

not just lecturers, teaching too...

Yep which is a problem. We don't need more teachers, lectures, professors or whatever; the Ivory Tower here in ireland is full enough.

jock101

In fairness, we are the best educated people IN THE WORLD:rolleyes:. So for pets sake give a little more!:)

avalon68

2Scoops wrote: »

Just to be fair, the starting salary for a lecturer is more in the region of €35k, not 50k.

Well, most postdocs earn approx 40k, so I would be amazed if you found a single full time lecturer in Ireland earning 35 k

2Scoops

avalon68 wrote: »

Well, most postdocs earn approx 40k, so I would be amazed if you found a single full time lecturer in Ireland earning 35 k

Practically all junior lecturers in the country are on less than 40k. A full lectureship is not a typical starting position anymore, the same way most newly minted teachers from St. Pat's won't walk in as headmaster. And postdocs are only relevant in the sciences, afaik.

avalon68

2Scoops wrote: »

Practically all junior lecturers in the country are on less than 40k. A full lectureship is not a typical starting position anymore, the same way most newly minted teachers from St. Pat's won't walk in as headmaster. And postdocs are only relevant in the sciences, afaik.

Well let me rephrase, no lecturer in the sciences is working for 35 k. Most positions I have seen advertised specific to my area (though few and far between) paid almost twice that

2Scoops

avalon68 wrote: »

Well let me rephrase, no lecturer in the sciences is working for 35 k. Most positions I have seen advertised specific to my area (though few and far between) paid almost twice that

Surely a 70k job would be a "senior lecturer" position? They tend to go to people who have been round the block a bit, not straight after PhD +/- a postdoc.

dan_d

Are we now down to squabbling over what lecturers get paid?? If we had our way around here nobody in the country would be well paid.

I can't post the link as I'm in work (firewalls etc) but up until quite recently there were assistant lecturer jobs advertised for a number of Dublin colleges. You work a min 16hour week, and you are paid something like 11eur an hour. Plus the ad says something along the lines of attendance to labs/tutorials as necessary, and extra hours as your supervisor sees fit.It wasn't the most attractive ad out there.

Yeah the hours are fairly cushy for most, but honestly - the quantity of research that has to be done outside the teaching hours by most is just ridiculous, and takes a certain type of person.2scoops is right in what he (she?) is saying about starting salaries. You can't just tar everyone with the same "you get paid too much" brush.

People should also realise that lecturers have a couple of grades - Professor, Dr, and just plain lecturer. Professor and Dr require a lot of experience and time spent in education (PhD, masters etc). I know one or 2 professors involved in the faculty I was in in UCD had a good 15 years or more experience in the industry with a number of the big name companies, along with the extra education....personally I wouldn't begrudge them the money.

Welease - as pay rise systems go, your work place sounds a bit odd. The reason being that, while I don't think everyone should automatically get a pay rise every year, what happens if you're someone that works really hard but you work with someone who's just naturally better than you and will always get better results/deals, as a result? It's deeply unfair.Also it sounds like what went on in the banks - performance based bonuses - and let's face it, look at where that got us.Surely it's better to reward people moderately when there is some extra money, and not at all when there's not - at least people are working for the business and not for themselves that way.

pablo_escobar

don't know about primary/secondary schools but in third level, as a temporary lecturer, you get between 50-60k. as full time, it's 60-80k

lasnoufle

jock101 wrote: »

In fairness, we are the best educated people IN THE WORLD:rolleyes:. So for pets sake give a little more!:)

What are you, a joke or something? Have you even been out of Ireland? Why is half the staff of my company (IT) made of foreigners if Ireland have the best educated people available? Or are you being sarcastic?

Head The Wall

jock101 wrote: »

Lectures are underpaided here in my view, The State should reintroduce Tuition fees to pay for third level education.:)

jock101 wrote: »

In fairness, we are the best educated people IN THE WORLD:rolleyes:. So for petEs sake give a little more!:)

What a joke

Riskymove

lasnoufle wrote: »

Why is half the staff of my company (IT) made of foreigners if Ireland have the best educated people available? Or are you being sarcastic?

no we just have the best educated business and arts students in the world is all

Tim Robbins

2Scoops wrote: »

Surely a 70k job would be a "senior lecturer" position? They tend to go to people who have been round the block a bit, not straight after PhD +/- a postdoc.

Anecdotally, I know of one on between 70K and 80K. Has PhD (fair play wish I had one myself). No research whatsoever required. Doesn't have to publish any papers. Very long summer holidays.

I understand this salary if someone had to take out a 100K loan to do the PhD but they don't. The tax payer pays for most of that as well.

If you were a technical trainer you wouldn't need a PhD but you'd be putting in the hours and you'd be getting anything near that salary.

So, I think it's far too high. Give the economic times we find ourselves in.

WalterMitty

I dont know how good or bad our lecturers are or how long or short they work but the fact is they and all public sector workers get much more than the people doing the same job in europe/uk/usa. The presidents of (small and insignificant by global standards)Irish universities getting something like a quarter of a mill? :eek:
Even if our public servants were the best in the world, we cant afford to keep paying them so much, we never could but the property bubble and short term boom in taxes made everyone think we could. There isnt enough wealth/income that can be realistically taxed to keep government expenditure at current levels.

kuntboy

dan_d wrote: »

but honestly - the quantity of research that has to be done outside the teaching hours by most is just ridiculous, and takes a certain type of person.

It's just a pity the quality of research is so 5hit.

Geuze

In the IoTs, there are Assistant Lecturers and Lecturers.

See the TUI website for the scales:

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html


AL scale = approx 40k to approx 50k - 18 hrs teaching per week

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html#Assistant_Lecturer


L scale = approx 48k to 74k - 16 hrs teaching per week
http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html#Lecturer_Scale_1
I'm not sure of the difference between L1 and L2 scales.

Geuze

In the universities, there are typically "lower" and "upper" scales.

For example, NUI Galway call them "below the bar" and "above the bar".

There are promotional criteria, interview, etc. to go above the bar.

http://www.nuigalway.ie/payscales/

Below the bar = 40k to 57k

Above the bar = 62k to 81k.

Japer

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anecdotally, I know of one on between 70K and 80K. Has PhD (fair play wish I had one myself). No research whatsoever required. Doesn't have to publish any papers. Very long summer holidays.

I understand this salary if someone had to take out a 100K loan to do the PhD but they don't. The tax payer pays for most of that as well.

If you were a technical trainer you wouldn't need a PhD but you'd be putting in the hours and you'd be getting anything near that salary.

So, I think it's far too high. Give the economic times we find ourselves in.

+1. Lecturers get too much money for too short hours, and they spend half their year on holidays. Many also do nixers , grinds etc, correct extra papers etc. Mind you many of the ones doing nixers in the areas of quantity surveying, engineering, architecture, house extensions etc are finding themselves with more time on their hands than a few years ago.

doc_17

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Id also like to add that our economics lecturer told us she was opposed to the public sector workers strikes last year but she had to picket and that she was never given the opportunity to vote for or against the strikes, the union made the decision so she was forced to picket.

This is not how trade unions work. If that trade union were on strike they had to vote for it. So she had to vote one way or another.

avalon68

dan_d wrote: »

Are we now down to squabbling over what lecturers get paid?? If we had our way around here nobody in the country would be well paid.

Theres nothing wrong with evaluating payscales every now and again. The fact is 3rd level lecturers in Ireland earn a lot of money, more than their counterparts in many other countries. Paying more money does not equate with getting better performance/output/teaching quality. I currently work in a university in the US od A (a top 10 ranked school here), and I find that the standard of lecturers here is much higher than what I was accustomed to back in Ireland - and guess what - they dont get paid as much as Irish lecturers and they have a publish or perish system that weeds out those who do not perform. And this is in a very well funded univerisity - the facilities here are excellent, perhaps because they are not overpaying on salaries. And before anyone pipes up about cost of living, this is an expensive area to live in. Im not advocating large scale paycuts, but I do think there is a lot of dead weight in Irelands ivory tower that needs to go.

doc_17

avalon68 wrote: »

Theres nothing wrong with evaluating payscales every now and again. The fact is 3rd level lecturers in Ireland earn a lot of money, more than their counterparts in many other countries. Paying more money does not equate with getting better performance/output/teaching quality. I currently work in a university in the US od A (a top 10 ranked school here), and I find that the standard of lecturers here is much higher than what I was accustomed to back in Ireland - and guess what - they dont get paid as much as Irish lecturers and they have a publish or perish system that weeds out those who do not perform. And this is in a very well funded univerisity - the facilities here are excellent, perhaps because they are not overpaying on salaries. And before anyone pipes up about cost of living, this is an expensive area to live in. Im not advocating large scale paycuts, but I do think there is a lot of dead weight in Irelands ivory tower that needs to go.

There's lots of opinion there. What if I said that I work in an Irish university that is class and full of the best and brightest minds, much better that in any other country.....You'd say where is that? Back upthat statement with EVIDENCE.

Thats pretty much what your post boiled down to. Unsubstantiated opinion. What school is this in the US that you attend? How do you know they are better. Print a link to the surveys? Where are the salary scales to back this up that they are paid less?

I'm npt saying that you are incorrect/lying but why are you being so secretive?

I'd find it hard to believe that a lecturer gets paid less in a top ten American third level institute than in LYIT or carlow IT.

I doubt some of what you said has any basis in fact but more basis in opinion.

avalon68

doc_17 wrote: »

There's lots of opinion there. What if I said that I work in an Irish university that is class and full of the best and brightest minds, much better that in any other country.....You'd say where is that?

Actually Id say you need to travel a little bit more

As for the differences in standards of lecturers here, that is of course my personal/professional opinion - however, having worked in two different Irish universities previously, and colaborating with several US universities during my stint here, I feel it is a fairly well informed opinion.

I'm not being secretive - I just have no intentions of posting details of my place of work on the internet.

doc_17

What about the payscales then? Will that substantiate anything you say?You should know, as an acaemic at one the best 3rd level institutes in the world, that you have to back up claims wth data?

Nijmegen

How many of our universities are considered world class, must-attend institutions?

Just a thought.

Head The Wall

doc_17 wrote: »

What about the payscales then? Will that substantiate anything you say?You should know, as an acaemic at one the best 3rd level institutes in the world, that you have to back up claims wth data?

Seeing as they have a rating system for their colleges it would be easy for Avalon68 to compare the name of the college he works in against the list. Don't be so defensive, why don't you tell us where you work, what you do and what you get paid.

Japer

Nijmegen wrote: »

How many of our universities are considered world class, must-attend institutions?

Just a thought.

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

doc_17

Head The Wall wrote: »

Seeing as they have a rating system for their colleges it would be easy for Avalon68 to compare the name of the college he works in against the list. Don't be so defensive, why don't you tell us where you work, what you do and what you get paid.

I'm not being defensive. I'm also not making general statements that diminish entire sector based on nothing but opinion. How can someone say "They are all paid more than those in america" and everyone just accepts it as fact and truth. Maybe, maybe not. But please back it up. And as I said I find it very hard to believe that an AL in LYIT or Carlow can make more than someone who works in CALTECH, MIT etc.

I do accept btw that irish Ls and ALs are probably paid too much but top state that they are paid more than the best in the states needs to be backed up

Nijmegen

Japer wrote: »

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

Degrees for everyone isn't a bad thing. But we ought to be offering those salaries to top class talent, not pass-grade (by comparison) people. We should pay less or get a lot more.

Gurgle

kuntboy wrote: »

It's just a pity the quality of research is so 5hit.

Really?
You make this sweeping generalized uninformed statement based on....
Your periodic review of papers published in all disciplines?

Japer wrote:

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide.

So we've got less than 0.5% of the population of the 1st world, and 2% of the best universities. Yeah, thats terrible alright.

RichardAnd

Japer wrote: »

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

Trinity is the 49th best college, I think, in the world. To be fair, for a little island, that's pretty good but I do agree we have WAY too many third level institutes.

the problem is the smattering of IT colleges, CIT, SIT, whatever that are of a standard well below that of our top colleges like DCU, UCD and Trinity. Sending "everyone" to college was a bad idea because all it did was lower the worth of real degrees by flooding the market with crappy ones.

Back in the 80s, a degree from Trinity College meant something. A degree today with no experience to back it up is not enough to get you a job.

The college fees need to come back, simple as.

Byron85

Japer wrote: »

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

It's done every year actually and during the last few years, the top 4 universities have all climbed in the rankings. We've got 3 of them in the top 250. That's a pretty good achievement.

As for the research being ****, I think someone should tell the people who are awarding UCC research grants almost every month or so.

doc_17

Japer wrote: »

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

Here's a study that backs up the claim of some people that Irish universities are among the best in Europe: http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/our-excellent-universities-top-eu-league-table-for-efficiency-2112511.html

Now there are a few different interpretations people could make from that but it does lend weight to the fact that some universites/colleges are actually doing a good job!

There are probably too many colleges here alright. But what is the solution? Close LYIT? So not only do the sick and dying have to travel hundreds of miles for care they also have their sons and daughters travel hundreds of miles for an education. I get the arguement that having less and concentrating excellence in the same place but it's tricky to resolve.

kuntboy

From that article:

"In some cases, this was essentially due to excellent scientific production (Sweden, Finland and the Netherlands), whereas Ireland attained its position due to the graduation output, which is not only high in number but also the best in perceived quality."

Aren't the University rankings made from number of papers cited? A circle-jerk of cogging off eachother?

2Scoops

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

As for the research being ****, I think someone should tell the people who are awarding UCC research grants almost every month or so.

Eh, the Irish government, which only awards Irish universities?