Salary of a Lecturer

kuntboy · 06-07-2010 12:37PM

dan_d wrote: »

but honestly - the quantity of research that has to be done outside the teaching hours by most is just ridiculous, and takes a certain type of person.

It's just a pity the quality of research is so 5hit.

Geuze · 06-07-2010 12:57PM

In the IoTs, there are Assistant Lecturers and Lecturers.

See the TUI website for the scales:

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

AL scale = approx 40k to approx 50k - 18 hrs teaching per week

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html#Assistant_Lecturer

L scale = approx 48k to 74k - 16 hrs teaching per week
http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html#Lecturer_Scale_1
I'm not sure of the difference between L1 and L2 scales.

Geuze · 06-07-2010 01:00PM

In the universities, there are typically "lower" and "upper" scales.

For example, NUI Galway call them "below the bar" and "above the bar".

There are promotional criteria, interview, etc. to go above the bar.

http://www.nuigalway.ie/payscales/

Below the bar = 40k to 57k

Above the bar = 62k to 81k.

Japer · 06-07-2010 02:32PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anecdotally, I know of one on between 70K and 80K. Has PhD (fair play wish I had one myself). No research whatsoever required. Doesn't have to publish any papers. Very long summer holidays.

I understand this salary if someone had to take out a 100K loan to do the PhD but they don't. The tax payer pays for most of that as well.

If you were a technical trainer you wouldn't need a PhD but you'd be putting in the hours and you'd be getting anything near that salary.

So, I think it's far too high. Give the economic times we find ourselves in.

+1. Lecturers get too much money for too short hours, and they spend half their year on holidays. Many also do nixers , grinds etc, correct extra papers etc. Mind you many of the ones doing nixers in the areas of quantity surveying, engineering, architecture, house extensions etc are finding themselves with more time on their hands than a few years ago.

doc_17 · 06-07-2010 03:51PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Id also like to add that our economics lecturer told us she was opposed to the public sector workers strikes last year but she had to picket and that she was never given the opportunity to vote for or against the strikes, the union made the decision so she was forced to picket.

This is not how trade unions work. If that trade union were on strike they had to vote for it. So she had to vote one way or another.

avalon68 · 07-07-2010 01:18AM

dan_d wrote: »

Are we now down to squabbling over what lecturers get paid?? If we had our way around here nobody in the country would be well paid.

Theres nothing wrong with evaluating payscales every now and again. The fact is 3rd level lecturers in Ireland earn a lot of money, more than their counterparts in many other countries. Paying more money does not equate with getting better performance/output/teaching quality. I currently work in a university in the US od A (a top 10 ranked school here), and I find that the standard of lecturers here is much higher than what I was accustomed to back in Ireland - and guess what - they dont get paid as much as Irish lecturers and they have a publish or perish system that weeds out those who do not perform. And this is in a very well funded univerisity - the facilities here are excellent, perhaps because they are not overpaying on salaries. And before anyone pipes up about cost of living, this is an expensive area to live in. Im not advocating large scale paycuts, but I do think there is a lot of dead weight in Irelands ivory tower that needs to go.

doc_17 · 07-07-2010 01:51AM

avalon68 wrote: »

Theres nothing wrong with evaluating payscales every now and again. The fact is 3rd level lecturers in Ireland earn a lot of money, more than their counterparts in many other countries. Paying more money does not equate with getting better performance/output/teaching quality. I currently work in a university in the US od A (a top 10 ranked school here), and I find that the standard of lecturers here is much higher than what I was accustomed to back in Ireland - and guess what - they dont get paid as much as Irish lecturers and they have a publish or perish system that weeds out those who do not perform. And this is in a very well funded univerisity - the facilities here are excellent, perhaps because they are not overpaying on salaries. And before anyone pipes up about cost of living, this is an expensive area to live in. Im not advocating large scale paycuts, but I do think there is a lot of dead weight in Irelands ivory tower that needs to go.

There's lots of opinion there. What if I said that I work in an Irish university that is class and full of the best and brightest minds, much better that in any other country.....You'd say where is that? Back upthat statement with EVIDENCE.

Thats pretty much what your post boiled down to. Unsubstantiated opinion. What school is this in the US that you attend? How do you know they are better. Print a link to the surveys? Where are the salary scales to back this up that they are paid less?

I'm npt saying that you are incorrect/lying but why are you being so secretive?

I'd find it hard to believe that a lecturer gets paid less in a top ten American third level institute than in LYIT or carlow IT.

I doubt some of what you said has any basis in fact but more basis in opinion.

avalon68 · 07-07-2010 02:18AM

doc_17 wrote: »

There's lots of opinion there. What if I said that I work in an Irish university that is class and full of the best and brightest minds, much better that in any other country.....You'd say where is that?

Actually Id say you need to travel a little bit more

As for the differences in standards of lecturers here, that is of course my personal/professional opinion - however, having worked in two different Irish universities previously, and colaborating with several US universities during my stint here, I feel it is a fairly well informed opinion.

I'm not being secretive - I just have no intentions of posting details of my place of work on the internet.

doc_17 · 07-07-2010 05:00AM

What about the payscales then? Will that substantiate anything you say?You should know, as an acaemic at one the best 3rd level institutes in the world, that you have to back up claims wth data?

Nijmegen · 07-07-2010 09:09AM

How many of our universities are considered world class, must-attend institutions?

Just a thought.

Head The Wall · 07-07-2010 09:14AM

doc_17 wrote: »

What about the payscales then? Will that substantiate anything you say?You should know, as an acaemic at one the best 3rd level institutes in the world, that you have to back up claims wth data?

Seeing as they have a rating system for their colleges it would be easy for Avalon68 to compare the name of the college he works in against the list. Don't be so defensive, why don't you tell us where you work, what you do and what you get paid.

Japer · 07-07-2010 10:04AM

Nijmegen wrote: »

How many of our universities are considered world class, must-attend institutions?

Just a thought.

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

doc_17 · 07-07-2010 10:29AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Seeing as they have a rating system for their colleges it would be easy for Avalon68 to compare the name of the college he works in against the list. Don't be so defensive, why don't you tell us where you work, what you do and what you get paid.

I'm not being defensive. I'm also not making general statements that diminish entire sector based on nothing but opinion. How can someone say "They are all paid more than those in america" and everyone just accepts it as fact and truth. Maybe, maybe not. But please back it up. And as I said I find it very hard to believe that an AL in LYIT or Carlow can make more than someone who works in CALTECH, MIT etc.

I do accept btw that irish Ls and ALs are probably paid too much but top state that they are paid more than the best in the states needs to be backed up

Nijmegen · 07-07-2010 10:30AM

Japer wrote: »

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

Degrees for everyone isn't a bad thing. But we ought to be offering those salaries to top class talent, not pass-grade (by comparison) people. We should pay less or get a lot more.

Gurgle · 07-07-2010 10:46AM

kuntboy wrote: »

It's just a pity the quality of research is so 5hit.

Really?
You make this sweeping generalized uninformed statement based on....
Your periodic review of papers published in all disciplines?

Japer wrote:

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide.

So we've got less than 0.5% of the population of the 1st world, and 2% of the best universities. Yeah, thats terrible alright.

RichardAnd · 07-07-2010 11:56AM

Japer wrote: »

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

Trinity is the 49th best college, I think, in the world. To be fair, for a little island, that's pretty good but I do agree we have WAY too many third level institutes.

the problem is the smattering of IT colleges, CIT, SIT, whatever that are of a standard well below that of our top colleges like DCU, UCD and Trinity. Sending "everyone" to college was a bad idea because all it did was lower the worth of real degrees by flooding the market with crappy ones.

Back in the 80s, a degree from Trinity College meant something. A degree today with no experience to back it up is not enough to get you a job.

The college fees need to come back, simple as.

Byron85 · 07-07-2010 12:42PM

Japer wrote: »

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

It's done every year actually and during the last few years, the top 4 universities have all climbed in the rankings. We've got 3 of them in the top 250. That's a pretty good achievement.

As for the research being ****, I think someone should tell the people who are awarding UCC research grants almost every month or so.

doc_17 · 07-07-2010 01:02PM

Japer wrote: »

There was a survey done a year or two ago and just two of our universites ( Trinity + UCD ) scraped in to the top 100 worldwide. 3 of the top 4 were from the UK, despite the fact university lecturers are paid much less there than they are here.

For a population of 3.5 million, we have far too many institutes + 3rd level colleges and universities in the country. Nearly every county has one.

Here's a study that backs up the claim of some people that Irish universities are among the best in Europe: http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/our-excellent-universities-top-eu-league-table-for-efficiency-2112511.html

Now there are a few different interpretations people could make from that but it does lend weight to the fact that some universites/colleges are actually doing a good job!

There are probably too many colleges here alright. But what is the solution? Close LYIT? So not only do the sick and dying have to travel hundreds of miles for care they also have their sons and daughters travel hundreds of miles for an education. I get the arguement that having less and concentrating excellence in the same place but it's tricky to resolve.

kuntboy · 07-07-2010 01:12PM

From that article:

"In some cases, this was essentially due to excellent scientific production (Sweden, Finland and the Netherlands), whereas Ireland attained its position due to the graduation output, which is not only high in number but also the best in perceived quality."

Aren't the University rankings made from number of papers cited? A circle-jerk of cogging off eachother?

2Scoops · 07-07-2010 05:02PM

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

As for the research being ****, I think someone should tell the people who are awarding UCC research grants almost every month or so.

Eh, the Irish government, which only awards Irish universities?

Head The Wall · 07-07-2010 05:35PM

kuntboy wrote: »

From that article:

"In some cases, this was essentially due to excellent scientific production (Sweden, Finland and the Netherlands), whereas Ireland attained its position due to the graduation output, which is not only high in number but also the best in perceived quality."

Both of these statements have been shown up for what they are lately. A sham and I "perceived" France to be a good soccer team. How wrong was I

RichardAnd · 07-07-2010 05:43PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Both of these statements have been shown up for what they are lately. A sham and I "perceived" France to be a good soccer team. How wrong was I

Agreed. I did some work last summer with a few IT grads from the states and they absolutely amazed me with their knowledge. They were fresh out of college and neither had worked in industry before but they had a dept of understanding in computers and engineering that would be well beyond the average graduate over here.

The difference, from what I gleaned in conversations, is that the American universities give their students an education whilst we put them through a course. We make people learn off material and then reproduce it in an exam hall. they give them material which they then get them to learn through application.

I know guys with first class honours degrees and masters who are sitting on the dole. The facts are that most employers want graduates with knowledge, not grades and right now, that's sorely lacking.

Byron85 · 07-07-2010 06:19PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

The difference, from what I gleaned in conversations, is that the American universities give their students an education whilst we put them through a course. We make people learn off material and then reproduce it in an exam hall. they give them material which they then get them to learn through application.

It depends on the degree though. For example, in one of my exams this year I argued against the main points of one of my lecturers. I did this because firstly I did some outside reading and secondly because I disagreed with her on some points. The result was that I ended up with a rather good mark in the subject when I expected it to be one of my worst.

I think when it comes to Computer Science degrees, and similar degrees, your point is backed up to a certain degree. I know people with a Computer Science degree from UCC who can't do something basic as open up a desktop, install a new hard drive and install a new operating system. I can do that and i'm not doing anything computer related in university.

Head The Wall · 07-07-2010 06:29PM

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

I think when it comes to Computer Science degrees, and similar degrees, your point is backed up to a certain degree. I know people with a Computer Science degree from UCC who can't do something basic as open up a desktop, install a new hard drive and install a new operating system. I can do that and i'm not doing anything computer related in university.

Maybe it has since changed since I finished my course in College 13 years ago but they didn't teach that back then either.

Any graduates that can't do that have absolutely no interest in their chosen career and just look on it purely as a job. 10 year old kids have that ability so it would be as big a no no as a CV with bad grammar or spelling if I was hiring anybody.

I'm not hiring before anyone asks

Riskymove · 08-07-2010 09:13AM

2Scoops wrote: »

Eh, the Irish government, which only awards Irish universities?

I think he means the people in UCC who are awarding grants to the people doing research

Riskymove · 08-07-2010 09:15AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Maybe it has since changed since I finished my course in College 13 years ago but they didn't teach that back then either.

nor for me.......ICT skills were not really part of it...mostly theory with practical classes only in relation to programming languages as oppossed to IT administration etc

southsiderosie · 08-07-2010 10:33AM

Just as a point of comparison, here is an analysis of starting salaries for political science junior faculty in the US by type of department and type of institution. The average starting salary of a tenure-track assistant professor (entry-level) at a public university was $57,966.

Trinity, a publicly funded institution, recently posted several positions in their political science department; I don't understand how they've listed the payscale, but it ranges from 36-70,000 euro/year.

Given that Trinity is the top university in Ireland according to international rankings, then perhaps this makes sense (the DIT salaries listed earlier seemed nonsensical). However, they are essentially paying a similar or higher salary (depending on how the payscale works, exchange rates and living expenses) than top-tier American universities like University of Chicago or Harvard, which are on top of both the American and international rankings - and these institutions are private. Top public universities like Berkeley or Michigan would pay even less.

kuntboy · 08-07-2010 11:42AM

Gurgle wrote: »

Really?
You make this sweeping generalized uninformed statement based on....
Your periodic review of papers published in all disciplines?

lol. You got me.

WalterMitty · 08-07-2010 11:47AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Just as a point of comparison, here is an analysis of starting salaries for political science junior faculty in the US by type of department and type of institution. The average starting salary of a tenure-track assistant professor (entry-level) at a public university was $57,966.

Trinity, a publicly funded institution, recently posted several positions in their political science department; I don't understand how they've listed the payscale, but it ranges from 36-70,000 euro/year.

Given that Trinity is the top university in Ireland according to international rankings, then perhaps this makes sense (the DIT salaries listed earlier seemed nonsensical). However, they are essentially paying a similar or higher salary (depending on how the payscale works, exchange rates and living expenses) than top-tier American universities like University of Chicago or Harvard, which are on top of both the American and international rankings - and these institutions are private. Top public universities like Berkeley or Michigan would pay even less.

Yeah and i doubt the american lecturer in private institution has the gold plated pension that his Irish public sector equivalent has.

PeakOutput · 08-07-2010 05:51PM

kuntboy wrote: »

Aren't the University rankings made from number of papers cited? A circle-jerk of cogging off eachother?

no

Salary of a Lecturer

Comments