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Point out the flaws AH

2

Comments

  • #32
    Danbo!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,942 ✭✭✭Danbo!


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    To open the doors of perception, maaaaaaaaaaaaan.

    FYP


  • #33
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    It would be a huge burden on the state I wouldn't trust our government with drugs or personal information about drugs.

    I could see why it would be good for Heroin in particular as that is a dangerous drug but the likes of cannabis and MDMA don't need as much regulation.

    Weed has a culture there already allow that culture to produce it's own drugs and that will be a healthy local level industry within months. It's practically there already just unable to come into the mainstream for fear of repercussions.

    I do have a problem with the state becoming the drug dealer not quite as much as I do with businesses supplying the drugs for profit but over all I don't think there's one solution that would suit all drugs which one should be dealt with separately.


  • #34
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    nice1franko wrote: »
    one fell swoop
    Ahem.


  • #35
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Nervous Wreck wrote: »
    Why do so many people need to get high to have fun/be happy? Surely that's a greater social problem.

    Why do you assume it's a need?

    do people _need_ to jump out of planes?

    bunjy jump?

    Play sports?

    It's enjoyable

    Simples.


  • #36
    Hogzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Alcohol is regulated quite heavily and look at any city center on a Friday or Saturday night the behavior of some people is a disgrace. I dont care what people do to themselves. They can f*ck up their life all they want but once other peoples decisions to start taking heroin begin to affect over all safety and security of the people who choose not to take heroin or any other drug you have to ask the question is it really worth it.

    Im all in favour of legalising Cannabis but i think Heroin and Ecstasy being legalised gives it more room to be abused. Look at gun crime in the states compared to the UK or Ireland. Guns are in the hand of every criminal in the US. Its got out of control. It could be the same here.

    And what happens when someone becomes addicted to heroin and no longer has the money to buy it. He will go out and rob whoever to get the money to buy it in the pharmacy. IMO the petty crime attached to drug use will sore.


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  • #37
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Alcohol is regulated quite heavily and look at any city center on a Friday or Saturday night the behavior of some people is a disgrace. I dont care what people do to themselves. They can f*ck up their life all they want but once other peoples decisions to start taking heroin begin to affect over all safety and security of the people who choose not to take heroin or any other drug you have to ask the question is it really worth it.

    Im all in favour of legalising Cannabis but i think Heroin and Ecstasy being legalised gives it more room to be abused. Look at gun crime in the states compared to the UK or Ireland. Guns are in the hand of every criminal in the US. Its got out of control. It could be the same here.
    Alcohol turns people aggressive, that's a well known side effect that isn't as common in other drugs. It's not that common to see people off their heads on MDMA turning violent. Any rave I've been to never had any problems when everyone was on yolks.

    Any average American can walk into a shop and buy a gun, you can't do that here. Most Americas problems are down to daft laws and over population in big cities. Every big city in the world has a crime problem that has nothing to do with drugs.


  • #38
    Hogzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Alcohol turns people aggressive, that's a well known side effect that isn't as common in other drugs. It's not that common to see people off their heads on MDMA turning violent. Any rave I've been to never had any problems when everyone was on yolks.

    Any average American can walk into a shop and buy a gun, you can't do that here. Most Americas problems are down to daft laws and over population in big cities. Every big city in the world has a crime problem that has nothing to do with drugs.

    I know someone who was mugged by 2 guys off their face on Heroin. They kicked his body and head while he was lying on the ground after they punched him all for the sake of 5euro. I dont really know enough about other drugs but in no way should heroin be legalised!


  • #39
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Alcohol is regulated quite heavily and look at any city center on a Friday or Saturday night the behavior of some people is a disgrace. I dont care what people do to themselves. They can f*ck up their life all they want but once other peoples decisions to start taking heroin begin to affect over all safety and security of the people who choose not to take heroin or any other drug you have to ask the question is it really worth it.

    Im all in favour of legalising Cannabis but i think Heroin and Ecstasy being legalised gives it more room to be abused. Look at gun crime in the states compared to the UK or Ireland. Guns are in the hand of every criminal in the US. Its got out of control. It could be the same here.

    And what happens when someone becomes addicted to heroin and no longer has the money to buy it. He will go out and rob whoever to get the money to buy it in the pharmacy. IMO the petty crime attached to drug use will sore.


    I'm a legal firearms holder and from that viewpoint and the contact my job brings me into with criminality the gun situation here is sh!te. I have to jump through loads of hoops to get and keep my guns. Whereas any of my clients can pick up a firearm as easily as they pick up a bag of gear.

    There are other reason for gun crime in the States rather than the gun laws. It's not a case of it could be the same here for illegal guns rather it is. Though I have various firearm certs, I can't legally get a centre-fire pistol over here; however, if I criminally minded I could have one by tonight if I really wanted.

    Petty crime would not soar in my opinion, drug treatment in Ireland is in a crap state. If there was easier access there would be less crime, however, some people will always steal no matter what. The flaw here is if we supplied heroin to addicts in such a manner the State would end up paying for it, the same as it pays for methadone treatment.


  • #40
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    Hogzy wrote: »
    I know someone who was mugged by 2 guys off their face on Heroin. They kicked his body and head while he was lying on the ground after they punched him all for the sake of 5euro. I dont really know enough about other drugs but in no way should heroin be legalised!

    Whereas the theft may have been for cash to score, if they went overboard with voilence, I would guess the same people would be nasty cnuts whether they took heroin or not. How did your mate know it was heroin they took?


  • #41
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Hogzy wrote: »
    I know someone who was mugged by 2 guys off their face on Heroin. They kicked his body and head while he was lying on the ground after they punched him all for the sake of 5euro. I dont really know enough about other drugs but in no way should heroin be legalised!
    More likely they where not under the influence of Heroin as it can be quite debilitating when your under it's effects. More likely they where trying to get money for their next score probably encouraged by their dealer. Getting Heroin out of the back alleys and into the hands of people that at the very least won't treat the users like animals there to be abused for profit would do a hole lot to reduce the crime they commit. The fact is they have no interest in crime it's an obstacle they have to overcome to get their drugs. Give them another way I'm sure they'd take it.


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  • #42
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Hogzy wrote: »
    I know someone who was mugged by 2 guys off their face on Heroin. They kicked his body and head while he was lying on the ground after they punched him all for the sake of 5euro. I dont really know enough about other drugs but in no way should heroin be legalised!

    I bet they probably drank tea that day too.


  • #43
    Hogzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Odysseus wrote: »
    How did your mate know it was heroin they took?

    He was informed by the Gardai that they were known Heroin addicts. They could have been on anything fair enough but if i hear someone is a heroin addict and they are off their face on drugs i think its fair to assume its heroin. Im going to back out of this thread because i seem to be on my own on this.

    Do you people really think Ireland would be better off if Heroin was legalised?
    ScumLord wrote: »
    The fact is they have no interest in crime it's an obstacle they have to overcome to get their drugs. Give them another way I'm sure they'd take it.

    So if someone has no money for heroin you think they should be given it for free incase they go out and mug someone for the money instead.
    ntlbell wrote: »
    I bet they probably drank tea that day too.
    Well done thats fantastic!!!


  • #44
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Im all in favour of legalising Cannabis but i think Heroin and Ecstasy being legalised gives it more room to be abused. Look at gun crime in the states compared to the UK or Ireland. Guns are in the hand of every criminal in the US. Its got out of control. It could be the same here.

    What have taking yokes & gun crimes in the US got to do with one another? :confused:


  • #45
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    What have taking yokes & gun crimes in the US got to do with one another? :confused:

    Indeed, surely taken all the money away from the criminals would reduce gangland crime etc :confused::confused:


  • #46
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    Hogzy wrote: »
    He was informed by the Gardai that they were known Heroin addicts. They could have been on anything fair enough but if i hear someone is a heroin addict and they are off their face on drugs i think its fair to assume its heroin. Im going to back out of this thread because i seem to be on my own on this.

    Do you people really think Ireland would be better off if Heroin was legalised?



    So if someone has no money for heroin you think they should be given it for free incase they go out and mug someone for the money instead.


    Well done thats fantastic!!!

    If they where know user's benzo's are very popular with with heroin users, so they might have something to do with it. Benzo's can provoke aggression in the same way alcohol does in fact benzo's give us more trouble than any other drug within treatment facilities.

    Do I think Ireland would be a better place, that depends on a lot. If we followed the same system as we currently do with Methadone, no I don't think so. Methadone treatment in Ireland was established due to public hysteria around criminality and HIV in the late 80s early 90s, it was not born out of a desire to treat addicts, and tbh there is something very wrong with the way the Health Service treats people with addiction problems. I do believe that it would reduce associated crinimality to a significant level.

    If we where to legalise it, yes it would come to to free heroin, and this would reduce criminality, reduce being the big word, some people will always commit crime.


  • #47
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Do you people really think Ireland would be better off if Heroin was legalised?

    do you think having it illegal makes much of an impact on usage?

    in portugal when they decriminalised drugs, people seeking rehibiliation doubled. so yeah i do think we would be better off. i don't think too many dealers try and help users, while the providers through this system would.


  • #48
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    Bambi wrote: »
    We'd have drug tourists but, this plan would be like a filth magnet. Other than that, I'm all in favour. Our health services are keeping junkies alive indefinitely anyway.

    if there was some sort of regulated system behind it, and at the least you had to be an irish citizen then it's unlikely to cause drug tourism. i'm not advocating something like just having unregulated cafes or headshops everywhere.


  • #49
    TPD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,813 ✭✭✭TPD


    I agree with the OP. Seems ridiculous to think that drugs are better controlled by criminal organisations than by the government. (well, knowing our government...)

    Seriously though, does anyone here who hasn't tried a certain drug (say, heroin), believe they would go out and take some tomorrow if it was legalised? Probably not, yet people seem to think that everyone else will.
    Even if that were to happen, the drugs they recieved would be cleaner and they would be given health advice from the government when purchasing (like warnings on cigarettes), so they would be at less risk of causing harm.


  • #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,046 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I cant wait for the day when people realise that making something illegal doesn't affect consumption.. Then there can be a proper debate on this. Otherwise, some people still cling onto this daft notion that making something illegal will solve problems.

    They've been banned for 80 years and no matter how hard people try, it's becoming a bigger and bigger problem worldwide.. Gangs control a multibillion dollar industry while addicts suffer in their hands and law enforcement fail at every turn to stop them.
    Our demand is too high for there ever to be a shortage of supply.. Regulation, quality control and treatment are the only way forward if lives are to be saved.. Ironic that the 'drugs kill' has been the reason to ban these substances when in reality, more people have died from the prohibition than the drugs.

    Who was that footballer shot in the back in Limerick by mistake by a gang?
    The thousands of Mexicans every year slaughtered in drug feuds?
    The drug mules dying or in prison while ingesting drugs for transport?
    The people around the world dying from bad quality drugs?
    The thousands of young males in American prisons for nonviolent drug offenses?
    All prohibition.

    I could go on and on about how much damage it has done and why it is by far the least practical way of solving th drugs problem. It will never happen though..


  • #51
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Simply put anyone who needs recreational drugs is mentally retarded.

    Some people need drugs for medical reasons. Fair enough. Otherwise drug use is not necessary. Anyone who does it is a spanner


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  • #52
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Nervous Wreck wrote: »
    Why do so many people need to get high to have fun/be happy? Surely that's a greater social problem.

    We dont have to take our clothes off to have a good time oh no


  • #53
    christ on a bike!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 476 ✭✭christ on a bike!


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Simply put anyone who needs recreational drugs is mentally retarded.

    Some people need drugs for medical reasons. Fair enough. Otherwise drug use is not necessary. Anyone who does it is a spanner

    Dont think you can say that to be fair (well you obviously can say it but I don't agree)

    Shakespear like the aul coke by aul accounts. 60's and 70's had some fantastic drug inspired music. Could mention waaaay more stuff but you get the point, these people aren't retarted, just enjoy placing their body and mind under different effects for sh1ts and giggles.

    If you're just having a laugh then what harm, there's lots who do it who are better en than you or I


  • #54
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,089 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Simply put anyone who needs recreational drugs is mentally retarded.

    Some people need drugs for medical reasons. Fair enough. Otherwise drug use is not necessary. Anyone who does it is a spanner
    Lol. I take it you're including caffeine, nicotine and alcohol in that so? Hell, sugar can fall under the definition of recreational drug

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  • #55
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Simply put anyone who needs recreational drugs is mentally retarded.

    Some people need drugs for medical reasons. Fair enough. Otherwise drug use is not necessary. Anyone who does it is a spanner
    __________________
    " I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter. " Winston Churchill.

    *Looks at signature*

    Winston Churchill enjoyed coca-based products. Stimulants such as Coca-Bola chewing gum and cocaine-lozenges- "a powerful tonic to the muscular and nervous system, enabling the chewer to perform additional labour and relieving fatigue and exhaustion"

    Churchill did also say:"Alcohol has taken less from me,than I have taken from it!".


  • #56
    karlm37
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69 ✭✭karlm37


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Simply put anyone who needs recreational drugs is mentally retarded.

    Some people need drugs for medical reasons. Fair enough. Otherwise drug use is not necessary. Anyone who does it is a spanner

    4 pages before someone posted a retarded statement like this, a new AH record as far as drug discussions are concerned! :rolleyes:


  • #57
    CorsetIsTight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 320 ✭✭CorsetIsTight


    I think that certain substances should not be provided to children.

    I think that anyone over the age of 18 and in full control of their mental faculties should be allowed to consume whatever they like, including alcohol, heroin and rat poison, if they so choose.

    I think that recreational drugs should be legal, with the proviso that they contain accurate warnings and/or information regarding their effects so that any potential consumer can make an informed decision. I am also in favour of nutritional information labelling on food, and of information regarding levels of alcohol in drink for the same reason.

    I think that anyone who commits a crime while under the influence of any recreational drug (including alcohol) should be prosecuted for that crime, as they would be if there was no drug involved. I think that drink-driving laws are a good idea, and that they should be extended to other substances that impair the ability to drive.

    I have never taken an illegal drug in my life, and have absolutely no interest in doing so. I think the state should hold me responsible if I harm someone else by my actions. I do not think that the state has any right to tell me that I may not consume alcohol, chocolate, heroin, rat poison or whatever else I wish.


  • #58
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    phantom_lord wrote: »
    Point out the flaws AH.
    I think drugs (all of them, yes even heroin) should be legalised and distributed from government licensed premises. Pharmacies would fit the bill nicely (this would also make up for the revenue lost providing generic drugs).

    I don't think pharmacies would fit the bill. I can think of all kinds of objections to selling recreational drugs along side medicinal drugs. I would far prefer a system where certain shops sold certain drugs and only those drugs. So the MDMA store would only sell MDMA and perhaps similar drugs but not alcohol or Heroin or tobacco. Tobacconists would be the only premises licensed to sell tobacco and they could only sell tobacco etc.
    There could also be an attempt to create a means of traceability to prevent them being passed to underage people and others.

    I don't see how that would be possible. What could you do beyond having a traceable barcode or something similar on the products? That could just be removed once you leave the premises.
    The drugs from these premises would be of a guaranteed standard and level of potency, ensuring a supply of unadulterated drugs, and a lesser chance of over doses.

    Materials explaining all the effects and drawbacks would be available at the point of sale, and all drugs would come with government warnings. This would also allow a much greater possibility of users seeking rehabilitation.

    In one foul swoop you would remove the source of funds of most criminal elements, as the products available would be of a higher standard and lower price than those available on the street (it will be easy to do this, and still provide the government with a healthy revenue source)

    The budget for the Gardaí is over 1.5bn, with a reduced need to tackle drugs and criminal gangs this would be reduced immensely.
    Government revenue was over 1.1bn in 2008 from tobacco products and something similar again from alcohol. This is the potential for huge savings and a very lucrative revenue source for the exchequer.

    We could even grow and produce the materials here in Ireland, we’ve a large pharmaceutical sector already in place; this is a green revolution that can actually create jobs.

    What somebody please think of the children
    Won’t this cause a prevalence of drug use particular amongst children?

    No. Portugal decriminalised drugs several years ago and contrary to the trend in other EU states addiction, usage, and associated pathologies are either contained or reduced. Criminalization was exacerbating the problem and that only decriminalization could enable an effective and efficient government response. "Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success"

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

    Chances are that most teenagers find it easier to obtain illicit drugs than alcohol. This scheme would take the distribution of drugs out of the hands of criminals into the realms of government control. Dutch teenagers have a lower usage level of cannabis than most European teenager and significently lower than their Irish counterparts.

    http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/annual-report/2009

    In short:
    • Safer drugs
    • Reduced criminal element
    • Stricter controls
    • More efficient use of Garda resources
    • Revenue for the Government
    • Create jobs
    • Will likely reduce usage and increase people that seek treatment

    I agree with you on pretty much everything else here.


  • #59
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Anyone else read the title as: Point out the flaws in AH.

    I had the popcorn on and all :p


  • #60
    Jeboa Safari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭Jeboa Safari


    Agree with all except Heroin, the potential to get addicted to that is alot higher than the rest, any extra garda resources diverted from the legalisation of other drugs could be used to target heroin, aswell as funds used to setup treatment centres


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  • #61
    up for anything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭up for anything


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Compared to the huge amount of resources spent chasing after something people clearly want.

    Or clearly need after a while instead of just wanting.


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