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Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

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24567…62

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    #32
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    It was a question! The 'Am I right' bit gives that away. It was something I'd heard from several people and obviously incorrectly assumed there was something to it.

    On another note, will they be providing parking to cater for these 60k people in the new stadium? Blackrock/Ballintemple can barely handle the chaos from a normal match let alone a super stadium.

    I believe there was provision for a small carpark (400-500 hundred spaces) and that's about it. The re-development of Páirc Uí Chaoimh should be done hand in hand with a high capacity public transport corridor from Mahon Point into the city centre connecting to Kent and the bus station. Failure to do so will mean more decades of chaos in Ballintemple on big match days. Even for the Cork-Kerry game which had only 23k the traffic chaos was mental. In any other country a 60k seater stadium would never be considered without a plan to get that many people into and out of the area on public transport. But this is Ireland and the ' ah sur it'll be grand' attitude rules the day again.


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    #33
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    I live in a private walled housing estate. The Gardaí put barriers up at the entrance, and no parking cones around it too, but the match attendees just pull the barriers aside and force their way in. Its frustrating as anything, and the residents - not me - are considering calling the clampers over it.

    But as the previous poster said, I would think that having a large capacity stadium would go hand in hand with a large capacity multistorey/underground car park and the infrastructure to disperse the traffic build up quickly.


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    #34
    rebel.ranter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭rebel.ranter


    I have no objection to Cork GAA spending their money on their stadium. Thrle problem lies with the inevitable tax payer funding that Cork GAA will seek to bridge the gap. That money would be better spent elsewhere. Why not go for a more modest redevelopment that meets the real needs. I understand the current problem with the seating arrangement at the moment. I still have the marks on my shins from the Cork-Tipp & Cork-Kerry replay.
    My point relates to its size versus current & potential use.
    I know for certain that while any of the current county board members are still alive there will be no other sports played here. My point being that this just re-enfroces the fact that the stadium will get little use.
    If we take the example if Croke Park & its size. The ground has to reach a miminmum occupancy in order to just break even, would we be in the same dilemma with a 50k seater in Cork?

    I was initially all for its redevelopment, the pride in having a decent stadium in the city would be nice, but it would really only come into its own 3 days a year.
    As for the facilities, it's all very well having state of the art facilities for inter county teams, however inter county players are based all over the county & their needs are better met by the current system where they are enrolled in heir local gym. If th facity was tied to one of the colleges then it might add something to the debate. UCC have their own facility in the Mardyke though.
    Let's see what the Cork-Limerick attendance is like today to see if the new stadium would be even half full.


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    #35
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    rebel.ranter wrote: »
    Let's see what the Cork-Limerick attendance is like today to see if the new stadium would be even half full.

    Down the pairc now. 15 mins to throw in and there's about 10k here. So 3 big games in the pairc this year and not one has even come close to the existing capacity not to mention 60k.

    EDIT: official attendance 13,638.


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    #36
    rebel.ranter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭rebel.ranter


    So that is it for Pairc Ui Chaoimh this year. Is finished for another summer. Any back door games could easily be handled in Pairc Ui Rinn.
    It reverts to a training ground for either the footballers or hurlers for the rest of the season.
    OK we'll have some club championship matches but they would struggle to get a 15k attendance.


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    #37
    BUNK1982
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭BUNK1982


    It's also worth remembering that the Opera House may have to shut it's door for 3 months of the year to break even. This should put paid to any suggestions that the stadium would pay for itself via concerts etc.

    Scalability is the key and there's no way that Cork can expect to maintain a 60,000 all seater stadium.

    An ideal scenario as I can see it is that Pairc Ui Chaoimh is handed over to the city and redeveloped as a Municipal stadium with a 40,000 capacity (not a 40,000 all seater). The uncovered stand and and both terraces could be knocked and rebuilt at modest cost and the covered stand redeveloped to include the dressing rooms and other required facilities.

    The GAA could spend their money on developing coaching facilities/ a school of excellence and use Pairc Ui Rinn as their de facto HQ.

    The Pairc Ui Chaoimh stadium would easily manage the 2-3 big intercounty games a year and county finals as well as other sports and events.


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    #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BUNK1982 wrote: »

    An ideal scenario as I can see it is that Pairc Ui Chaoimh is handed over to the city

    Handed over ? Why would the GAA hand over a stadium ?


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    #39
    BUNK1982
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭BUNK1982


    RoverJames wrote: »
    Handed over ? Why would the GAA hand over a stadium ?

    The GAA would hand over the stadium, or be force to hand over the stadium so that it could be run properly as a commercial entity that will break even at the very least and we wouldn't have to put up with endless debates over what can and cannot be played at the Pairc. The scheme would benefit the city/ county as a whole rather than a single sporting organisation - a municipal stadium.

    It's not unreasonable considering the GAA are expecting the council to hand over land.

    In many ways it's preferable for them as it leaves them with more funding to develop this school of excellence


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BUNK1982 wrote: »
    The GAA would hand over the stadium, or be force to hand over the stadium so that it could be run properly as a commercial entity that will break even at the very least and we wouldn't have to put up with endless debates over what can and cannot be played at the Pairc. The scheme would benefit the city/ county as a whole rather than a single sporting organisation - a municipal stadium.

    It's not unreasonable considering the GAA are expecting the council to hand over land.

    In many ways it's preferable for them as it leaves them with more funding to develop this school of excellence

    The GAA plan to BUY the land from the council, you reckon forcing the GAA to hand over a stadium to the council is not unreasonably. Oh my, new levels of madness being reached in here :D

    And the council would then run it properly as a commercial entity, oh my God, those <mod snip> guys can't arrange the rubbish collection properly.


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    #41
    castie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    Keep this civil please and less of the filter avoidance to abuse the council


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    #42
    BUNK1982
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭BUNK1982


    RoverJames wrote: »
    The GAA plan to BUY the land from the council, you reckon forcing the GAA to hand over a stadium to the council is not unreasonably. Oh my, new levels of madness being reached in here :D

    And the council would then run it properly as a commercial entity, oh my God, those <mod snip> guys can't arrange the rubbish collection properly.

    So the GAA buy the land from the council - my apologies.

    What would usually with stadium owned by the city is that the contract to run the stadium is awarded to a private company. Pairc Ui Chaoimh as it stands is hardly ringing endorsement for the GAA's capabilities given the state it is in now.

    Madness would be spending €50m on a 60,000 all seater stadium that can only hope for 2-3 capacity events a year, isn't allowed host other sports and already has 2-3 well established competitors in Thurles, Limerick and Dublin.


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    #43
    castie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    The unique thing here would be that its all seater.

    We currently have no major stadium operating that is all seater.

    Aviva will be the first when it opens.


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    #44
    castie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    BUNK1982 wrote: »
    So the GAA buy the land from the council - my apologies.

    What would usually with stadium owned by the city is that the contract to run the stadium is awarded to a private company. Pairc Ui Chaoimh as it stands is hardly ringing endorsement for the GAA's capabilities given the state it is in now.

    Madness would be spending €50m on a 60,000 all seater stadium that can only hope for 2-3 capacity events a year, isn't allowed host other sports and already has 2-3 well established competitors in Thurles, Limerick and Dublin.

    Also as many people have pointed out the stadiums entrances are a death trap waiting to happen. So it isnt just upgrading for the sake of upgrading. The safety increase will be huge Id think. Unless you think that since its only 2-3 games a year that the death trap should be fine.


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    #45
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    BUNK1982 wrote: »
    So the GAA buy the land from the council - my apologies.

    What would usually with stadium owned by the city is that the contract to run the stadium is awarded to a private company. Pairc Ui Chaoimh as it stands is hardly ringing endorsement for the GAA's capabilities given the state it is in now.

    Madness would be spending €50m on a 60,000 all seater stadium that can only hope for 2-3 capacity events a year, isn't allowed host other sports and already has 2-3 well established competitors in Thurles, Limerick and Dublin.

    Exactly. There were 3 big games in the pairc this year that drew 34k, 23k and 14k. There is no need for a 60k stadium in Cork. It would never draw a full capacity. A 35k all-seater with decent facilites and open to all sports would be a better investment but the GAA will never open up the pairc.


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    #46
    BUNK1982
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭BUNK1982


    castie wrote: »
    Also as many people have pointed out the stadiums entrances are a death trap waiting to happen. So it isnt just upgrading for the sake of upgrading. The safety increase will be huge Id think. Unless you think that since its only 2-3 games a year that the death trap should be fine.

    There's no argument here, the Pairc Ui Chaoimh stadium needs to be upgraded for health and safety reasons amongst others. But it's not the most complex structure and shouldn't cost €50m. How much did the Semple Stadium revamp cost?

    Also, where's the benefit in having an all seater stadium? The only reason that the Aviva is all seater is because of a FIFA ruling. I don't think it would work in GAA because you'll have higher ticket prices, less of an atmosphere etc.

    The GAA are proposing a 60,000 all-seater - that's the same size as the Emirates and bigger than Lansdowne Road!

    All I'm saying is that a better use of resources would be for the GAA to develop Pairc Ui Rinn to cater for all inter-county league games and club games up to quarter final/ semi final stage, invest in this Centre of Excellence scheme somewhere and leave the Pairc Ui Chaoimh site as a mutli purpose stadium that would host big GAA games as well as other sports/ concerts & events. It would be used all year round and could really kick start the docklands scheme.


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BUNK1982 wrote: »
    leave the Pairc Ui Chaoimh site as a mutli purpose stadium that would host big GAA games as well as other sports/ concerts & events. It would be used all year round and could really kick start the docklands scheme.

    Can you clarify the following please
    - by leave, do you mean sell it to the Council or donate it ?
    - as well as investing in Pairc Ui Rinn do you expect the GAA to also invest in Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

    ?


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    #48
    BUNK1982
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭BUNK1982


    RoverJames wrote: »
    Can you clarify the following please
    - by leave, do you mean sell it to the Council or donate it ?
    - as well as investing in Pairc Ui Rinn do you expect the GAA to also invest in Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

    ?

    Depends on what kind of agreement they can come to.

    The GAA will obviously push for a selling fee but the council could argue that the Pairc Ui Chaoimh is a public safety hazard and needs to be shut down, then slap them with a compulsary purchase order. If it were condemed then the Pairc wouldn't be worth much to the GAA at all...

    So there are a number of options worth considering...

    - The GAA could either receive a fee and then rent the stadium for big games.
    - Hand the stadium over on the provision of them paying a reduced rent and having first call on it's use
    - donate it in exchange for a site for the Hurling School of Excellence

    an so on.......


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    #49
    MunsterCycling
    Registered Users Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭MunsterCycling


    TBH they should set the price for the land @ €15m - €18m an acre and if they can't come up with the money slap the grab all association with multiple H&S violations, pollution fines and a dereliction order, sick of an organisation that is built on discrimination having a hold on this country.


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    #50
    castie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    BUNK1982 wrote: »
    Depends on what kind of agreement they can come to.

    The GAA will obviously push for a selling fee but the council could argue that the Pairc Ui Chaoimh is a public safety hazard and needs to be shut down, then slap them with a compulsary purchase order. If it were condemed then the Pairc wouldn't be worth much to the GAA at all...

    So there are a number of options worth considering...

    - The GAA could either receive a fee and then rent the stadium for big games.
    - Hand the stadium over on the provision of them paying a reduced rent and having first call on it's use
    - donate it in exchange for a site for the Hurling School of Excellence

    an so on.......

    Its almost impossible to upgrade Pairc Ui Rinn because of its position.

    People seem to be very short sighted when it comes to the capacity also.

    Rugby agreed on the Aviva Total and it looked slightly tight with demand.
    Now that it is complete it is so under the demand level that it could be filled twice over!


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    #51
    MunsterCycling
    Registered Users Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭MunsterCycling


    castie wrote: »
    Its almost impossible to upgrade Pairc Ui Rinn because of its position.

    People seem to be very short sighted when it comes to the capacity also.

    Rugby agreed on the Aviva Total and it looked slightly tight with demand.
    Now that it is complete it is so under the demand level that it could be filled twice over!


    What could be filled twice over?


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    #52
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    castie wrote: »
    People seem to be very short sighted when it comes to the capacity also.

    The 3 big games in the Pairc this year drew an average of 23k people. A 60k capacity stadium is way over capacity for 2 or 3 events a year. How can a 60k capacity be justified?


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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MunsterCycling wrote: »
    What could be filled twice over?

    The Aviva.


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    #54
    BUNK1982
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭BUNK1982


    RoverJames wrote: »
    The Aviva.


    But it's in the best interests of the IRFU and FAI to have demand exceeding supply. This will enable them to bump up the ticket prices and guarantees a full house. Bigger games could move to Croker but they would have to deduct for rent.

    A 60k seater stadium in Cork, owned exclusively by the GAA would be massively under-used and end up falling into disrepair much like the current stadium.

    I don't know the ins and outs of Pairc ui Rinn or the area - would there be room to bring that up to scratch as 20k venue? It could easily handle league games and high profile club fixtures.


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    #55
    MunsterCycling
    Registered Users Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭MunsterCycling


    Ah yes, re-read the post and it made sense this time.

    We could do with taking a leaf out of French town planners books and only allow municipal stadiums, that would ensure access for all sports not just a select few.


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    #56
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    the GAA will never open up the pairc.

    Oh they will. With Musgrave Park being stunted the IRFU will be clamouring for a local site to host a few Heino matches. Frank will come up with a deal that suits the County Board.

    The back has been broken by allowing rugby in Croke Park. The English played there so all the old mantra's, the old golden cows and the old hangups have given way in the quest for bobs.


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    #57
    MunsterCycling
    Registered Users Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭MunsterCycling


    Isn't that always the Achilles heal of the GAA, their unrelenting quest for money, money and yet more money.


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    #58
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    parsi wrote: »
    Oh they will. With Musgrave Park being stunted the IRFU will be clamouring for a local site to host a few Heino matches. Frank will come up with a deal that suits the County Board.

    The back has been broken by allowing rugby in Croke Park. The English played there so all the old mantra's, the old golden cows and the old hangups have given way in the quest for bobs.

    They already have Thomond Park for Heineken Cup games! If as you claim the IRFU will be clamouring for access to the pairc, why haven't they done so yet?


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    #59
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    They already have Thomond Park for Heineken Cup games! If as you claim the IRFU will be clamouring for access to the pairc, why haven't they done so yet?

    They _will_ because they will like to have access to a trendy Cork-based stadium. They _didn't_ in the past because there wasn't such a stadium in Cork.

    Munster isn't just Limerick....


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    #60
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    parsi wrote: »
    They _will_ because they will like to have access to a trendy Cork-based stadium. They _didn't_ in the past because there wasn't such a stadium in Cork.

    Munster isn't just Limerick....

    Munster Rugby is mainly Limerick.

    Anyway Munster wouldn't fill a 60k stadium in Cork for a regular Heino cup game in a million years (granted a semi final may draw a crowd). Munster Rugby feeds off the atmosphere in Thomond.....which is better: a packed Thomond or a 20k crowd lost inside a 60k stadium? If the new pairc was say a decent 30k/35k all seater with excellent facilities then yes but let's be honest €50m isn't going to build anything 'trendy'. It'll be just like every other GAA stadium....basic and functional, definitely not trendy.


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If it's not trendy the Heino Cup bandwagon won't be into it ;)


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