2010 Dublin Marathon- Sub 3 mentored thread

lazarus_ wrote: »

ecoli does sounds like a great idea. i coach quite a group of athletes in the UK and was wondering as i usually coach up to half marathon myself and all my study and advice from uk endurance coaches and mark rowland have revolved around many a lot of similar basis for the marathon structure.

1) could you explain to me your view on anaerobic threshold training and how it would be incorporated into your program?
2) will you use HR as a guide at all? if so, based on the PR's provided what HR range would you put your athletes in for the aerobic, anaerobic and VO2 Max work?
3) will you incorporate hillwork for that strength endurance? if so, what structure will it take?
4) speed endurance is key is what i always say- u mention alot about MP and HMP but in the majority of cases you need significant speed insurance to run and finish strong a marathon, what sort of speed endurance will you structure into your program? and what pace would a 3hr group target in this session?

Once again, i think this is a fantastic idea to help some people and wish you the best. I m just curious to see another coaches perspective on this as the four i mentioned above are integral to my coaching and the success i have had.

Thanks for the support. By the sounds of it you have alot more coaching experience than me. As i have stated in this thread i have only recently started coaching people and would not be qualified (as of yet). The idea was i was approached to help try and mentor as best possible with my knowledge (through research and experience as a runner). As such i dunno how much insight i would be able to give you in comparison to qualified coaches from endurance uk however i will answer to give you an insight into my own coaching philosphies and hhopefully give athletes more of an insight into the background to the plan that i intend to prescribe

1) could you explain to me your view on anaerobic threshold training and how it would be incorporated into your program?

I think that this is an aspect which is crucial to any plan. I intend to phase this in after the base building phase and from here alternate it with the HMP sessions which aim to develop the aerobic capacity.The idea is to stay between sub threshold to threshold in order to raise your capacity. This is safer as too much threshold pace is likely to contribute to glycogen depletion and residual muscle fatigue which will create and adverse effect. This was the approach i used during my own half marathon training and in my opinion became the corner stone to my development

2) will you use HR as a guide at all? if so, based on the PR's provided what HR range would you put your athletes in for the aerobic, anaerobic and VO2 Max work?

Short answer for this would be no. I have tried using heart rates in my own training in the past personal experience i didnt find this to be as useful for development. I have researched it a bit but would be by no means an expert and as such this could be a reason for why i didnt find it as useful as many people who base all their training by it. For me the fact that so many things (such as weather,sleep, stress etc.) can contribute to this means that their are so many variables in a days training that i think it may be hard to do a generalized plan for a group of people i do not have face to face contact with may be quite problematic.

3) will you incorporate hillwork for that strength endurance? if so, what structure will it take?

Hillwork i feel is a major factor for distance running from middle to long. Here i was able to gain alot of insight from an international IAAF coach who kindly helped with my understaning of this. These will be seperate sessions of hill reps of duration between 2-3 min. These seem to be optimal for long distance runners with shorter durations of 1 min - 90 seconds being prescribed as more beneficial for more middle distance athletes


4) speed endurance is key is what i always say- u mention alot about MP and HMP but in the majority of cases you need significant speed insurance to run and finish strong a marathon, what sort of speed endurance will you structure into your program? and what pace would a 3hr group target in this session?

For marathon training i would be more inclined to keep this aspect of a marathon plan to a minimum. As the Marathon is almost 99% aerobic i feel that there is less need to be training within anaerobic zones. Again this is a generalized plan and as such i think anaerobic training would be more personalized in terms of marathon plans as the majority of athletes looking to the 3hr mark i would feel benefit more from the aerobic development gained from aerobic based sessions as opposed to eroding their aerobic capacity (to some degree) through these sort of sessions

Again as i have said before i am not a qualified coach at the moment and these views you may feel to go against your own experience. While i am the mentor here this thread is designed as support and as such people are free to (and encouraged) to contribute and i am sure that with your background in coaching people would be happy for you to give your input.

lazarus_ wrote: »

Ecoli im rushing out so ill just point out the main things that grasped me.

1) you said that anaerobic threshold was a crucial part to any plan. Then you went on in the end to say that marathon is 99% aerobic so anaerobic does not really factor into things? this has me confused.

I do believe this to be crucial but only in small amounts and also it is possible to develop your anaerobic threshold through running sub threshold paces as through this your previously anaerobic training develops into aerobic. Sessions should be give ample recovery time and only after a high level aerobic base has been built up. Even up to once a week can lead to glycogen depletion and residual muscle fatigue

Based on the theories of Lydiard and Livingstone


[/QUOTE]2) if you do think anaerobic is crucial like you originally said - how do you intend to discover the anaerobic threshold obviously blood lactate is not possible so to work off heart rate is by far the best measure possible to your group that combined with 'feel' and discussion with athletes. [/QUOTE]

You have a point in it being one of the easiest ways of identifying threshold and if athletes base there training off HRM then This may be added to the plan but for those who dont i will aim for percieved effort based on current fitness levels and Race paces


[/QUOTE]3) I recommend from my experience that you sit down with some experienced marathon runners and ask them about what they did regarding speed endurance as i know many highly successful marathon runners and they all incorporate some even swear by speed endurance so i think it is one of the most vital preperation.. workouts like 4 mile warm up, 5*mile, 3*1km, 1*800m 3*400 have proved very successful for me or even basic things like 20*400m with a mile before and after. in terms of AT threshold 2-3 sets of 20min with 60 seconds is very successful. [/QUOTE]

I have talked with marathon runners from 2.35 - 3.15 range in order to get as best a picture of what has worked and what hasn't in order to establish what would be beneficial to the majority. As i have not done a marathon i thought this was the best way to ensure that i can give people the best possible plan i could devise.I was suprised to find that very few considered speed endurance workouts to be one of their main components to their marathon plans. Also referring to your idea of AT threshold work out i think this might be suited to more elite marathon runners only they have built up aerobic base over a number of years

DON’T do the threshold runs for an hour- that’s too long for most people: to get the effect you’re after without knocking yourself around too much, try something like 20 mins w/up: 20 mins A.T. tempo: 20 mins cool-down.

Healthy Intelligent Training - Ken Livingstone

[/QUOTE]anyway, i think you should research, communicate with the experienced coaches in your area and perhaps even take a step back before two forward as there is many avenues about marathon preperation that need to be channeled before you take on a couple of months of someones life and time as it is a very complex and structurally definitive journey for an athlete and as a coach if this doesnt work its not easy to take. the best coaches know when they are not ready for something and are always learning that being said if people are willing to be your guinea pigs more power to you as u will i know for a fact learn a lot.[/QUOTE]

I understand your concern regarding this and i have said from the start i was approached to give my insight i did not go looking for this role (though i did offer private coaching to willing guinea pigs previously). The thread starts by saying it is not a certainty but that i ensure that i intend to give to the best of my ability people a chance to break the mark. This thread is not designed to tell people how to training but rather provide an alternative to people who have made attempts previously using other plans and have be unsuccessful. I am fully confident that my approaches can provide this but like i said i am open to input from other posters as at the end of the day we are all students for the entirety of our lives

lazarus_ wrote: »

Quotes from books and dropping names like Lydiard doesnt mean anything without the experience of trial and error with individuals and the modern study and qualifications. it takes years to develop an athlete and a plan that suits them - an athlete of any ability.

- learn about anaerobic threshold training, the scientific footing, the structure. It will help you and anyone whom you take under your wing. your clearly a young eager guy but quouting 'healthy intelligent training' highlights the need to get proper coaching qualifications.

I spend hours everyday, writing schedules every one individual - no athlete is the same. i get daily feedback from every athlete, keep a journal for each athlete and this is how u learn what works for each athlete as noone athlete is the same and by throwing everyone in together, some will thrive and some will flounder and thats when you need to be able to step in and know what to change and how to change it

The reason for quoting this book was not to act as proof but rather to support my own anecdotal evidence from my own training for which i have applied all my theories to in order to try and establish what works and what doesn't as i agree training is about trial and error.
I dont see how quoting a book shows a need for proper coaching. Granted i am not qualified and i do intend to pursue this in the very near future (have been hounding the AAI for a coaching calendar update) however through comparison with other research and the insights given to me by runners of high quality (sub 15 5ks and sub 70 half guys) who swear by this book i approached it with an open mind in order to try and gain a broader understanding of principles of training used to develop my own coaching style. While i do not agree with everything in the book i do see many aspects to be of sound basis in my opinion. This is an approach i take with all research in order to try and find what works.
I applaud your efforts as a coach and with my own athletes i have taken this approach however i am not "coaching" these athletes but rather mentoring from my own personal knowledge i have made this clear from the start and the people who have expressed an interest have come to this decision under no false pretenses. Ideally every athlete should have there own personalized coach without a doubt however this message board is designed to give people a place to gain insight from fellow athletes as we can not all ideally come under a personal coach for whatever reason. These are the reasons why the development of generalized plans such as P&D, Hal Higdon and many others have come into being
Village Runner and tisnotover i realize you were trying to end this bit of tooing and frowing my response was to give the athletes who intend to follow the plan a fuller picture from both sides. The most important thing for an athlete is to have confidence in their training plan and its long term aims

SUNGOD wrote: »

would love to get involved but after 12 months of injury im way off the pace at the moment.
but i will still be checking regularly to see what kind of sessions etc everyone is doing.
best of luck to everyone doing this and to ecoli in setting this up
hopefully i will join ye next year

Best of luck getting back into things hopefully ya will get back to fighting form before too long

Okay let it begin!

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments
donothoponpop|3:10|40|
smmoore79| 3.10||
Speedy44|3:26|47|On the way:)
misty floyd|3:00|32.3|


This is not a locked thread or members only people are able to come and go the dont even have to follow the plan to contribute this is more about people with a common goal coming together to share in the highs and the lows in order to help each other to get to the finish line (hopefully in 2.XX.XX)

So here is the first week
Week 1
Monday Rest
Tuesday8 miles easy
Wednesday 6 miles steady + 4 x 200m strides
Thursday8 miles easy
Friday 4 miles easy
Saturday 7 miles easy
Sunday 10 miles easy (hilly course if possible)

Total weekly mileage: 43

For the purpose of the plan i have assigned monday as the day of rest as it will follow the LSR. The reason Sunday has been set aside for the LSR is just with people working the weekend is the most suitable time for most. This schedule can be changed around to suit peoples lives

I would also encourage people to supplement these runs with 2-3 miles at recovery pace in mornings 3-4 times a week and also optionally on the rest days (or evenings depending on when they run their main scheduled days training) This is not compulsory and the reasons for not putting it on the schedule is i know peoples commitments in other aspects of their lives makes this hard to do.

Regarding paces. I dont like giving exact figures for this my main advice would be to use common sense. here are some rough guidelines but not to be taken as gospel

Recovery run :1 min to 1 min 30 slower than MP
Easy Run: 30 secs to 50 secs slower than MP
Steady Run: 15 - 30 sec slower than MP

Again use the old noggin here most of you are experienced enough to know what kinda paces to be hitting

Regarding strides the should be roughly 5k pace with full walk recovery. You should not feel tired with these.

:)Best of luck to everyone:):)

Name|Previous best |Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Comments |

donothoponpop|3:10|||

smmoore79| 3.10|||

Speedy44|3:26|||

misty floyd|3:00|||

kaymin|n/a|||

ELFOYZER|3.29|||




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