joe calzaghe - not respected in the states

walshb · 28-05-2010 11:48AM

I agree and think that Joe would be far too polished for Collins and that poser and messer, Graham.

Eubank has as much chance at peak as he did in 1997. I don't see a 1994 Eubank doing all that much better. Chris was never the busiest fighter and would rely on his punch. That alone won't do it.

Watson doesn't possess the firepower to discourage Joe and would be outpointed by the faster and busier Calzaghe.

Benn to me is the real danger man. He is so so aggressive and hits so hard. Joe will taste Benn's shots, and I think I would back Benn to get a KO. Joe's chin is good, but not as sturdy as Eubank or Collins. Joe is hurt, dropped, and you won't see Benn hanging around like an old Hopkins or Jones. Benn will be out to kill with ferocious follow ups.

To beat Benn you really got to hurt him; I just don't think Joe hits hard enough to really trouble Benn.

paraguay99 · 28-05-2010 11:52AM

eagle eye wrote: »

Jones wasn't interested in fighting Calzaghe in his prime so this is wrong.

Who did Robin Reid beat to put himself in contention for another crack at the title? He lost his next fight after Calzaghe and never beat anybody of note after that, although he was robbed in Germany.
As for Veit, the only reason he got a rematch was because he became the WBO interim champ and he was a mandatory challenger as a result.

The same Lacy was a huge favourite to beat Calzaghe in the eyes of the American boxing public. And Lacy destroyed Reid too but of course that means nothing to you.
This thead is not about Steve Collins but seeming you bring him up, he turned down Calzaghe.

This is the greatest joke of everything in your post.
Clazaghe was plagued with hand injuries at the end of his career, everybody knows that, and its the only reason that fight never happened.
When Calzaghe was supposed to fight Glen Johnson, it was almost a Glen who? He was nothing at that stage, he had lost to Sheika, Ottke and a number of average fighters. He never had a big rep at super middle.
And Calzaghe would have destroyed Johnson anyways. The reason Johnson got a name for himself is that he beat Roy Jones jnr but that was after Jones had been ko'd by Tarver and RJJ was never the same fighter after that.

Now you talk about Hopkins who deliberately ducked Calzaghe by doubling his price at the last minute. You don't bring that up though, why? Is is because yet again you want to talk rubbish and don't want to give any credit to Joe?
And of course you call Hopkins an old man suggesting he was finished but you don't mention that he has won all his fights since including a dominating win over Kelly Pavlik.

Yeah Roy was finished but it was a case of Joe getting the guys that wanted nothing to do with him when he was in his prime. That was his last two fights, Hopkins who ducked him and RJJ who wouldn't even consider him.

Your post is horrendous, its full of bluster and downright lies. Calzaghe never ducked Jones, hand injuries were the reason he didn't fight the very average super middleweight Glen Johson and it was never a big deal but you say he ducked him and don't mention the injuries. You intimate that Hopkins was finished but he hasn't lost since. You throw out that he 'gave' Veit a rematch but we all know that he was a mandatory for that second fight.

Joe Calzaghe wanted Hopkins and Jones when he was in his prime, he never ducked anybody. Calzaghe is the greatest British boxer of all time and possibly the best pound for pound ever from outside the Americas.

Jones wasn't interested in fighting calzgahe... laughable. Calzaghe was the one staying his his comfort zone. He wanted nothing to do with jones and has admitted that he thinks prime jones would have beaten him. i mention steve collins purely because he had the mindset of proving himself against the best and called jones out extensively while calzaghe was happy fighting garbage.

you cant seem to understand that lacy is a poor fighter who got beaten by jermain taylor and KNOCKED OUT by the shell of roy jones.

you accept the mario veit rematch too easily. it was a pointless rematch and you never mention the point i make about calzaghe saying he "doesnt do rematches" and then rematching viet and not reid. Reid deserved a rematch because the public was calling for it and because the split decision was a controversial decision.

tell me about the terms on the hopkins fight that was agreed upon before hopkins increased his asking price. where was the fight to happen? how much was hopkins to get? why didn't joe go to america when hopkins was a young man and call him out. probably because he didn't want the fight...

glen johnson was a solid fighter and still is a solid fighter and would have been a tough fight for any body. calzaghe never fancied the job and pulled out three times. he still fought on and never gave johnson a fight so your excuses don't hold. and i am sure calzaghe used back injuries as well as hand injuries for his excuses so you were simply making excuses about hand injuries without even knowing anything about what the reasons were. clearly you are going to excuse calzaghe of anything.

hopkins is still a good fighter. but he is in his mid fourties. he beat pavlik due to styles as any slick fighter would. look what sergio martinez did to pavlik. calzaghe would have done something similar. im not saying hopkins is poor now, what i am saying is that he was much much better years ago and when he was, calzaghe gave him a substandard offer to fight in wales. he and warren could have agreed to hopkins demands to make the fight but calzaghe wasn't too pushed. why not give up the WBO garbage title and come to america at that time?

probably the funniest thing in your post is that roy wanted none of calzaghe when roy was in his prime when calzaghe is on record as saying he thoght prime roy would have beaten him! hmmm.. wonder why he never pushed for the fight then...

no doubt calzaghe was a great fighter.. but never fought another great fighter in their prime. his fans can only bring up the lacy fight (lol) and the kessler fight. and we know what andre ward did to kessler.

the sad thing is, joe might have done well if he had come to america and had the heart to prove himself. hed have falled short against the likes of roy and hopkins, but would get much more respect in america. now go to any american boxing forum and mention his name... you'll find that most of the fans agree that he never had the desire to fight the great fighters when they were in their primes.

eagle eye · 28-05-2010 11:54AM

walshb wrote: »

I agree and think that Joe would be far too polished for Collins and that poser and messer, Graham.

Eubank has as much chance at peak as he did in 1997. I don't see a 1994 Eubank doing all that much better. Chris was never the busiest fighter and would rely on his punch. That alone won't do it.

Watson doesn't possess the firepower to discourage Joe and would be outpointed by the faster and busier Calzaghe.

Benn to me is the real danger man. He is so so aggressive and hits so hard. Joe will taste Benn's shots, and I think I would back Benn to get a KO. Joe's chin is good, but not as sturdy as Eubank or Collins. Joe is hurt, dropped, and you won't see Benn hanging around like an old Hopkins or Jones. Benn will be out to kill with ferocious follow ups.

To beat Benn you really got to hurt him; I just don't think Joe hits hard enough to really trouble Benn.

I liked Benn too but I can't agree with you here. I think Benn's aggressiveness is his undoing against Joe. I think he gets caught too often as he tries to catch Calzaghe and I think the fight finishes early but in Joe's favour.

walshb · 28-05-2010 11:59AM

If Joe had real power then I see him halting Benn, but Benn withstood Eubank and Gerald for a fair few rds; no, I just don't see Calzaghe's shots deterring Benn and ending this, at least not early.

Benn early would be all over Calzaghe and throwing monster hits that require either a combination of Toney's chin AND defence, or Eubank's chin.

Joe's defence wasn't magnificent, he could be hit, hurt and dropped, and against Benn it would be relentless and very heavy.

nacho libre · 28-05-2010 01:04PM

by the end he could be hit and hurt. in his prime Calzaghe would have been a step too quick for Benn. While he wouldn't knock Benn out with one punch the accumulative damage would eventually lead to a ko.

I agree about Ward also probably beating a prime Calzaghe. There is the argument put forward that kessler was slightly in decline against Ward but i don't think that was it, he just couldn't handle Ward's speed and movement.

Anyway i make Ward the favourite to win the super six tournament. Dirrell will be his trickiest opponent.

walshb · 28-05-2010 01:16PM

I guess what I am saying is that vs. Benn I feel Joe would be at his most vulnerable. I would place my bets on Joe beating Collins, Eubank, Graham and Watson before I would bet on him defeating Benn. All to do with power, aggressiveness and style.

I would make Nigel the slight favorite here, 60-40 Benn

whaaames · 28-05-2010 01:29PM

I reckon Joe would've been too much for Herol Graham, his work rate would've saw him through and Graham would have been worn down by Joe to the point where he too far behind to do anything other than go for the KO, and left himself open. Its Joe by a late stoppage for me

I agree with the posts before, we saw what Joe did to Eubank in 97' and 2/3 years wouldn't have made that much of a difference, maybe Eubank would've been a bit more elusive and a tad sharper but it's still a Calzaghe decision for me.

I'm probably a bit biased on this one, but i think Collins would've been a lot to handle for Joe, he would've been raw strength and determination and kept coming forward for 12 rounds, but then again it wasn't in Joe's nature to do anything other than work for 12 rounds either so this would've been close, if it came down to it i reckon Steves' willingness to come foreward and fight wouldve been his undoing and Joe's workrate and pure volume would've carried him through. For me it's Joe on a split Decision

Michael Watson, brilliant boxer and tremendous athlete and would’ve kept Joe very busy all night, I’d imagine he would’ve known exactly what he needed to do and would’ve trained extremely hard to move and stay away from Joe’s volume of punches, he would’ve went in with the intention of a points win IMO and would’ve have been far off, however Joe would’ve seen how Watson boxed and knew what he had to do. Controversially I’m going for a Watson split decision, for me he out boxes Joe and evades him enough to win on points

Nigel Benn! Bar Collins, probably the most powerful of the lot and would’ve started like a frate train against Joe, I’d have him winning 3 or 4 of the first 5 but I agree that his doggedness and aggression would eventually be his undoing, After Joe weathers the early storm he’d steady himself and his onslaught would chip away at Benn until he’d be back on track and would grind out a points win through effort. I’d have Joe winning by unanimous decision

Just my opinion...

eagle eye · 28-05-2010 01:32PM

paraguay99 wrote: »

Jones wasn't interested in fighting calzgahe... laughable. Calzaghe was the one staying his his comfort zone. He wanted nothing to do with jones and has admitted that he thinks prime jones would have beaten him. i mention steve collins purely because he had the mindset of proving himself against the best and called jones out extensively while calzaghe was happy fighting garbage.

you cant seem to understand that lacy is a poor fighter who got beaten by jermain taylor and KNOCKED OUT by the shell of roy jones.

you accept the mario veit rematch too easily. it was a pointless rematch and you never mention the point i make about calzaghe saying he "doesnt do rematches" and then rematching viet and not reid. Reid deserved a rematch because the public was calling for it and because the split decision was a controversial decision.

tell me about the terms on the hopkins fight that was agreed upon before hopkins increased his asking price. where was the fight to happen? how much was hopkins to get? why didn't joe go to america when hopkins was a young man and call him out. probably because he didn't want the fight...

glen johnson was a solid fighter and still is a solid fighter and would have been a tough fight for any body. calzaghe never fancied the job and pulled out three times. he still fought on and never gave johnson a fight so your excuses don't hold. and i am sure calzaghe used back injuries as well as hand injuries for his excuses so you were simply making excuses about hand injuries without even knowing anything about what the reasons were. clearly you are going to excuse calzaghe of anything.

hopkins is still a good fighter. but he is in his mid fourties. he beat pavlik due to styles as any slick fighter would. look what sergio martinez did to pavlik. calzaghe would have done something similar. im not saying hopkins is poor now, what i am saying is that he was much much better years ago and when he was, calzaghe gave him a substandard offer to fight in wales. he and warren could have agreed to hopkins demands to make the fight but calzaghe wasn't too pushed. why not give up the WBO garbage title and come to america at that time?

probably the funniest thing in your post is that roy wanted none of calzaghe when roy was in his prime when calzaghe is on record as saying he thoght prime roy would have beaten him! hmmm.. wonder why he never pushed for the fight then...

no doubt calzaghe was a great fighter.. but never fought another great fighter in their prime. his fans can only bring up the lacy fight (lol) and the kessler fight. and we know what andre ward did to kessler.

the sad thing is, joe might have done well if he had come to america and had the heart to prove himself. hed have falled short against the likes of roy and hopkins, but would get much more respect in america. now go to any american boxing forum and mention his name... you'll find that most of the fans agree that he never had the desire to fight the great fighters when they were in their primes.

Clearly you didn't read my post because you just rehash the same lies you did in your original post.
I should have stopped at the first line but unfortunately I read the whole post.

Notes.
Jones dismissed Calzaghe when he was in his prime, it was never going to happen. I didn't say that Jones ducked him, he just dismissed him as unimportant when in his prime.
I never said Lacy was good, but you say that Robin Reid who was destroyed by Lacy should have had a rematch with Joe. Makes no sense.
Mario Veit was a mandatory for Calzaghe, he had to fight him again or lose the belt, do you not understand that?
Hopkins agreed to fight Joe about 8 years ago, all parties had agreed to the fight and then Hopkins inexplicably wanted double the money for the fight.
Explain to me how you rate Glen Johson who lost to Sven Ottke, Syd Vanderpool, Silvio Branca and Omar Sheika before he moved up to light heavyweight and lost to Derrick Harmon and Daniel Judah and in total had 6 wins, 6 losses and 2 draws in his previous 14 fights at the time that he was supposed to meet Calzaghe. Johnson was a no name when he got the fight with Calzaghe, injuries prevented the fight from happeing.
Also Calzaghe's camp tried to get that fight in 2006 but Johnson turned him down because he got the RJJ fight.

nacho libre · 28-05-2010 02:21PM

walshb wrote: »

I guess what I am saying is that vs. Benn I feel Joe would be at his most vulnerable. I would place my bets on Joe beating Collins, Eubank, Graham and Watson before I would bet on him defeating Benn. All to do with power, aggressiveness and style.

I would make Nigel the slight favorite here, 60-40 Benn

i understand that but i feel Calzaghe would have been too quick for Benn and eventually wore him down. If Benn did connect with a few power punches then i see Calzaghe being ko'd but i don't think that would have happened.

walshb · 28-05-2010 04:36PM

nacho libre wrote: »

i understand that but i feel Calzaghe would have been too quick for Benn and eventually wore him down. If Benn did connect with a few power punches then i see Calzaghe being ko'd but i don't think that would have happened.

But that is the thing, surely over 5 and 6 and 7 rds, the ultra aggressive Benn will land those shots? Joe was no Pernell Whitaker or James Toney. He has been hit and hurt several times by men not near as aggressive or dangerous as Benn. Put a Toney or Eubank chin on Joe and he whips Benn.

Joe's chin is a B to B +. It needs to be an A and above to withstand
Benn's shots.

paraguay99 · 28-05-2010 05:52PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Clearly you didn't read my post because you just rehash the same lies you did in your original post.
I should have stopped at the first line but unfortunately I read the whole post.

Notes.
Jones dismissed Calzaghe when he was in his prime, it was never going to happen. I didn't say that Jones ducked him, he just dismissed him as unimportant when in his prime.
I never said Lacy was good, but you say that Robin Reid who was destroyed by Lacy should have had a rematch with Joe. Makes no sense.
Mario Veit was a mandatory for Calzaghe, he had to fight him again or lose the belt, do you not understand that?
Hopkins agreed to fight Joe about 8 years ago, all parties had agreed to the fight and then Hopkins inexplicably wanted double the money for the fight.
Explain to me how you rate Glen Johson who lost to Sven Ottke, Syd Vanderpool, Silvio Branca and Omar Sheika before he moved up to light heavyweight and lost to Derrick Harmon and Daniel Judah and in total had 6 wins, 6 losses and 2 draws in his previous 14 fights at the time that he was supposed to meet Calzaghe. Johnson was a no name when he got the fight with Calzaghe, injuries prevented the fight from happeing.
Also Calzaghe's camp tried to get that fight in 2006 but Johnson turned him down because he got the RJJ fight.

i read your post but i don't think you understand completely some of the points ive made. i am not being smart with you, i genuinely dont think you do.

first off, u say roy dismissed calzaghe. when and how? my point to you is that roy was TOP DOG and was there to be challenged. my point to you is that calzaghe has ADMITTED that prime roy jones would beat him. my point to you is to contrast calzaghes attitude with steve collins, (who calzaghe would have beat i agree) who was threatning to tresspass on roys property to get the fight. ultimately my point there is that calzaghe didn't push for the fight and again, my overall point is, THESE ARE THE FIGHTS HE SHOULD HAVE PUSHED FOR and this is what he is criticised for.

You say the rematch with reid doesnt make sense because reid lost to lacy. my point to you is that the reid lacy fight happened MANY YEARS after the calzaghe reid 1 fight. i am not talking about the rematch happening then, i am talking about it happening after the first fight, which reid was crying out for, as were boxing fans. im sure you understand this point.

again with the hopkins thing. i understand hopkins apparently agreed but then must have thought better about it and simply asked for more money to come to WALES and fight in calzaghe hometown with hometown reffing and hometown scoring (this is how hopkins would have thought). we know hopkins is not a KO artist so he probably knew it was going to be a long fight with a possibility of scorecards and a possible robbery so asked for more money which wasn't given. calzaghe never expressed desire to fight him again until he was in his mid 40s.

as for my point against veit, i genuinely think you misunderstand. veit was a handy fight for calzaghe, which he wanted a lot of. the reason he is criticised by many is for fighting the viet rematch among others INSTEAD OF GOING FOR THE BEST. why not dump the title and go for the best. even Hatton fought Floyd and Pac in their primes. Hatton fought his share of overmatched opponents but DID step up. calzaghe stepped up... when those opponets were mid 40s lol. you will now come back and say "viet was mandatory, you don't understand".

Glen johnson was messed around bigtime by calzaghe. he is a tough fighter, who is better than sakio bika who gave alzaghe problems. he did a better job on jones than calzaghe did. he is a genuine fighter who doesnt duck anybody and if you actually saw the ottke fight, he won that one and got robbed. he was a decent fighter, yes calzaghe would have been favourite but johnson was no mug and was respected by all fans at the time. his losses were genuinely close and disputed. at the time i gave him a decent shot against calzaghe due to his strength and determination, although he was outskilled and probably would have lost on points. and actually you should be more careful when checking boxrec for stats as he didn't lose to daniel judah, it was a disputed draw which he got robbed in. i saw the fight.

it all comes down to calzaghe sitting in his corner of the world and being "afraid to fly" so he cant fight the best. of course, he had no problems flying to denmark to fight a no hoper did he?

his best wins are lacy and kessler... do i even have to go on?

its a shoddy career and he will never get the respect that hopkins/jones/toney etc get because you will find few fans who believe he could have beaten them in their primes. he himself doesnt think he would have beaten jones (as eubank and benn both admitted themselves).

such a long career, and mikkel kessler is his best win. thats actually laughable. hell, andre ward might as well retire now and be called one of the best pound for pound fighters ever.

eagle eye · 28-05-2010 10:21PM

paraguay99 wrote: »

i read your post but i don't think you understand completely some of the points ive made. i am not being smart with you, i genuinely dont think you do.

first off, u say roy dismissed calzaghe. when and how? my point to you is that roy was TOP DOG and was there to be challenged. my point to you is that calzaghe has ADMITTED that prime roy jones would beat him. my point to you is to contrast calzaghes attitude with steve collins, (who calzaghe would have beat i agree) who was threatning to tresspass on roys property to get the fight. ultimately my point there is that calzaghe didn't push for the fight and again, my overall point is, THESE ARE THE FIGHTS HE SHOULD HAVE PUSHED FOR and this is what he is criticised for.

You say the rematch with reid doesnt make sense because reid lost to lacy. my point to you is that the reid lacy fight happened MANY YEARS after the calzaghe reid 1 fight. i am not talking about the rematch happening then, i am talking about it happening after the first fight, which reid was crying out for, as were boxing fans. im sure you understand this point.

again with the hopkins thing. i understand hopkins apparently agreed but then must have thought better about it and simply asked for more money to come to WALES and fight in calzaghe hometown with hometown reffing and hometown scoring (this is how hopkins would have thought). we know hopkins is not a KO artist so he probably knew it was going to be a long fight with a possibility of scorecards and a possible robbery so asked for more money which wasn't given. calzaghe never expressed desire to fight him again until he was in his mid 40s.

as for my point against veit, i genuinely think you misunderstand. veit was a handy fight for calzaghe, which he wanted a lot of. the reason he is criticised by many is for fighting the viet rematch among others INSTEAD OF GOING FOR THE BEST. why not dump the title and go for the best. even Hatton fought Floyd and Pac in their primes. Hatton fought his share of overmatched opponents but DID step up. calzaghe stepped up... when those opponets were mid 40s lol. you will now come back and say "viet was mandatory, you don't understand".

Glen johnson was messed around bigtime by calzaghe. he is a tough fighter, who is better than sakio bika who gave alzaghe problems. he did a better job on jones than calzaghe did. he is a genuine fighter who doesnt duck anybody and if you actually saw the ottke fight, he won that one and got robbed. he was a decent fighter, yes calzaghe would have been favourite but johnson was no mug and was respected by all fans at the time. his losses were genuinely close and disputed. at the time i gave him a decent shot against calzaghe due to his strength and determination, although he was outskilled and probably would have lost on points. and actually you should be more careful when checking boxrec for stats as he didn't lose to daniel judah, it was a disputed draw which he got robbed in. i saw the fight.

it all comes down to calzaghe sitting in his corner of the world and being "afraid to fly" so he cant fight the best. of course, he had no problems flying to denmark to fight a no hoper did he?

his best wins are lacy and kessler... do i even have to go on?

its a shoddy career and he will never get the respect that hopkins/jones/toney etc get because you will find few fans who believe he could have beaten them in their primes. he himself doesnt think he would have beaten jones (as eubank and benn both admitted themselves).

such a long career, and mikkel kessler is his best win. thats actually laughable. hell, andre ward might as well retire now and be called one of the best pound for pound fighters ever.

1. Collins never got a fight with Jones so all his calling him out and threatening to trespass was a waste of time. Jones just ignored him the same way he ignored Calzaghe.
2. You come up with a ridiculous defense of Bernard Hopkins doubling his money.
3. Calzaghe didn't want to fight Veit a second time, he was very annoyed that he had to fight him again.
4. Johnson was never anything but average at super-middle. He fared a lot better at light-heavy though.
5. Johnson turned down Calzaghe too.
6. Its ok for the yanks to stay at home but if a British fighter does it then its a problem. Nice to know how you think things through.
7. I don't understand why you feel the need to tell me that Reid was robbed in the Ottke fight when I already said that.
8. Who here has said that Calzaghe was better than RJJ? I certainly have not and I too believe that RJJ in his prime would have beaten Joe.

Your post now is just pure conjecture.

Calzaghe beat Eubanks, Reid, Sheika(who had beaten Johnson just before that fight), Mitchell, Veit, Kessler and Hopkins. I know he beat a shot fighter in RJJ but I won't add that to the list of top fighters that he beat.

Roy Jones though wouldn't even consider fighting him in his prime, Hopkins didn't want anything to do with him either so he doubled his price. Calzaghe ducked nobody, Reid lost his next fight after Calzaghe beat him and while it could have happened Calzaghe never fought anybody twice except for Veit and that was forced on him.

I don't mind you having an opinion but I just responded because your first two posts were full of untruths.

Gl now.

nacho libre · 28-05-2010 10:34PM

walshb wrote: »

But that is the thing, surely over 5 and 6 and 7 rds, the ultra aggressive Benn will land those shots? Joe was no Pernell Whitaker or James Toney. He has been hit and hurt several times by men not near as aggressive or dangerous as Benn. Put a Toney or Eubank chin on Joe and he whips Benn.

Joe's chin is a B to B +. It needs to be an A and above to withstand
Benn's shots.

I am open to correction on this but i recall Calzaghe only being only dropped once in his prime?? I think you'd agree when he fought Hopkins and Jones he was a few years past his prime.

I agree if Benn did land a couple of clean shots in sucession he'd stop Calzaghe but i don't see that happening.
I think at his peak Calzaghe's workrate and speed would be too much for Benn. Benn would start like a freight train, but i think Calzaghe would weather the storm and he'd then start to make Benn look crude and cumbersome due to his superior movement and handspeed. Benn would get ever more desperate and ship a lot of punishment but Benn was teak tough so he'd probably go the 12 rounds to lose by UD

nacho libre · 28-05-2010 10:46PM

whaaames wrote: »

I’d have him winning 3 or 4 of the first 5 but I agree that his doggedness and aggression would eventually be his undoing, After Joe weathers the early storm he’d steady himself and his onslaught would chip away at Benn until he’d be back on track and would grind out a points win through effort. I’d have Joe winning by unanimous decision

Just my opinion...

well, if Benn were to dominate that many rounds then i think Calzaghe would definitely lose by ko early on. Calzaghe had a decent chin, but against Benn you'd need the granite of chin of Collins to withstand that kind of early domination.

walshb · 29-05-2010 07:51AM

Calzaghe was down in 2004 against Kabary Salem and down against Byron Mitchell, which was probably the fight you were referring to, nacho?

The Mitchell knock down was a solid one and Joe was hurt. He came back well.
The Salem shot was a peach, and I just do not think Salem is close to
Benn in terms of all around punching and most importantly, finishing ability.
Salem did **** all after the knock down. Benn would be tearing in attacking
a hurt Joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclzJW_FnME 1 min 50 secs in

I just think that Benn's style, aggression and power are the best of the mentioned fighters to do a number on Calzaghe. Peak or not, Calzaghe's chin is above average/quite good, and I feel that this just won't
cut it against Benn. Nor would it do against Gerald McClellan at 168 lbs.

Joe's chin is not Toney or Eubank or Hagler like. A good notch below. It is Joe's conditioning and recuperative traits that see him shake off shots; but, with Benn it may well be one and two and three rapid fire heavy shots.

whaaames · 29-05-2010 01:29PM

nacho libre wrote: »

but against Benn you'd need the granite of chin of Collins to withstand that kind of early domination.

fair comment

nacho libre · 29-05-2010 04:21PM

walshb wrote: »

Calzaghe was down in 2004 against Kabary Salem and down against Byron Mitchell, which was probably the fight you were referring to, nacho?

The Mitchell knock down was a solid one and Joe was hurt. He came back well.
The Salem shot was a peach, and I just do not think Salem is close to
Benn in terms of all around punching and most importantly, finishing ability.
Salem did **** all after the knock down. Benn would be tearing in attacking
a hurt Joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclzJW_FnME 1 min 50 secs in

I just think that Benn's style, aggression and power are the best of the mentioned fighters to do a number on Calzaghe. Peak or not, Calzaghe's chin is above average/quite good, and I feel that this just won't
cut it against Benn. Nor would it do against Gerald McClellan at 168 lbs.

Joe's chin is not Toney or Eubank or Hagler like. A good notch below. It is Joe's conditioning and recuperative traits that see him shake off shots; but, with Benn it may well be one and two and three rapid fire heavy shots.

I agree If Benn had caught him with the shot Salem did then Calzaghe definitely wouldn't be getting back up. As it was he did very well to recover from that shot from Salem. Most super-middlweweight fighters would not have had.
it's just a question of if Benn would be able to land clean shots like that. i think if Calzaghe knew he was in with a banger like Benn he'd never be as careless as he was in that fight to leave his chin exposed like that.

angry_bob · 29-05-2010 11:49PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Calzaghe is the greatest British boxer of all time and possibly the best pound for pound ever from outside the Americas.

Nothing against Joe, as a matter of fact, I have the greatest respect for him, but the greatest British boxer of all time, don't make me laugh.
Randolph Turpin beat 'the great' Sugar Ray, and I don't mean Leonard, for the Middleweight title. That was when there was only 1 champ at each weight, not the 4 or 5 they have today.
Ken Buchanan travelled to Puerto Rico to beat Ismael Laguna for the Lightweight title, and Lloyd Honeyghan winning the welterweight title from Don Curry in Atlantic City, far superior to anything Joe has done.
These are just the ones that spring to mind as I'm sipping a few drinks on a Saturday evening, so lets put it in perspective.
Joe won a mickey mouse version of a World title when there were 4 or 5 to go for. He defended it successfully against everyone put in front of him, but he never had a career defining fight against a rated 'great' fighter.
Kudos Joe, but greatest British boxer, I don't think so.

Vintagekits · 30-05-2010 01:10AM

angry_bob wrote: »

Nothing against Joe, as a matter of fact, I have the greatest respect for him, but the greatest British boxer of all time, don't make me laugh.
Randolph Turpin beat 'the great' Sugar Ray, and I don't mean Leonard, for the Middleweight title. That was when there was only 1 champ at each weight, not the 4 or 5 they have today.
Ken Buchanan travelled to Puerto Rico to beat Ismael Laguna for the Lightweight title, and Lloyd Honeyghan winning the welterweight title from Don Curry in Atlantic City, far superior to anything Joe has done.
These are just the ones that spring to mind as I'm sipping a few drinks on a Saturday evening, so lets put it in perspective.
Joe won a mickey mouse version of a World title when there were 4 or 5 to go for. He defended it successfully against everyone put in front of him, but he never had a career defining fight against a rated 'great' fighter.
Kudos Joe, but greatest British boxer, I don't think so.

tur[in got lucky against Robinson when he was on a tour

I Drink It Up! · 30-05-2010 02:44PM

walshb wrote: »

Calzaghe was down in 2004 against Kabary Salem and down against Byron Mitchell, which was probably the fight you were referring to, nacho?

The Mitchell knock down was a solid one and Joe was hurt. He came back well.
The Salem shot was a peach, and I just do not think Salem is close to
Benn in terms of all around punching and most importantly, finishing ability.
Salem did **** all after the knock down. Benn would be tearing in attacking
a hurt Joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclzJW_FnME 1 min 50 secs in

I just think that Benn's style, aggression and power are the best of the mentioned fighters to do a number on Calzaghe. Peak or not, Calzaghe's chin is above average/quite good, and I feel that this just won't
cut it against Benn. Nor would it do against Gerald McClellan at 168 lbs.

Joe's chin is not Toney or Eubank or Hagler like. A good notch below. It is Joe's conditioning and recuperative traits that see him shake off shots; but, with Benn it may well be one and two and three rapid fire heavy shots.

Anyone who thinks that Nigel Benn can take Joe Calzaghe needs their head examined.

walshb · 30-05-2010 03:14PM

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that Nigel Benn can take Joe Calzaghe needs their head examined.

So, Robin Reid, Sakio Bika, and several others push Joe very close and a ferocious and aggressive puncher like Benn stands no chance against Joe, who does not have a grade A chin?

Joe, who was down against the fighters I mentioned, and hurt, is under no risk from Nigel Benn, a fighter who is far more deadly in finishing ability and raw punching power than the names I mentioned?

Benn at 168 lbs who went 12 rds with a far superior puncher in Eubank? Benn took hell from a massive hitter
like McClellan and was en route to 12 rds in that one too. No way Calzaghe comes close to
hurting Benn as much as Gerald. Benn I feel wouldn't fear Joe's power all that much

Joe, I admire, and he has his traits and talents, but punching power is not one, nor is a steel chin. You wanna' beat Benn you have to be heavy handed and have a very good chin. Joe doesn't. Not saying he couldn't beat Benn, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Well, I will say that those who are so damn confident in picking Calzaghe over Benn need their heads examined...

paraguay99 · 30-05-2010 03:56PM

eagle eye wrote: »

1. Collins never got a fight with Jones so all his calling him out and threatening to trespass was a waste of time. Jones just ignored him the same way he ignored Calzaghe.
2. You come up with a ridiculous defense of Bernard Hopkins doubling his money.
3. Calzaghe didn't want to fight Veit a second time, he was very annoyed that he had to fight him again.
4. Johnson was never anything but average at super-middle. He fared a lot better at light-heavy though.
5. Johnson turned down Calzaghe too.
6. Its ok for the yanks to stay at home but if a British fighter does it then its a problem. Nice to know how you think things through.
7. I don't understand why you feel the need to tell me that Reid was robbed in the Ottke fight when I already said that.
8. Who here has said that Calzaghe was better than RJJ? I certainly have not and I too believe that RJJ in his prime would have beaten Joe.

Your post now is just pure conjecture.

Calzaghe beat Eubanks, Reid, Sheika(who had beaten Johnson just before that fight), Mitchell, Veit, Kessler and Hopkins. I know he beat a shot fighter in RJJ but I won't add that to the list of top fighters that he beat.

Roy Jones though wouldn't even consider fighting him in his prime, Hopkins didn't want anything to do with him either so he doubled his price. Calzaghe ducked nobody, Reid lost his next fight after Calzaghe beat him and while it could have happened Calzaghe never fought anybody twice except for Veit and that was forced on him.

I don't mind you having an opinion but I just responded because your first two posts were full of untruths.

Gl now.

I will try to take your points in tandem

1. yes it never happened, but the point is that collins had the mentality to go after jones. calzaghe didnt. why? because he knew he would lose the fight.

2. hopkins didnt want to fight in wales for peanuts in the end. a fighter of his calibre and status coming over to fight in wales where he could get possibly robbed? it would take big money to do that. the fight would probably have gone to the cards. i like how you never mention how calzaghe never went to america at the time either because he was "too scared of flying".

3. lol, calzaghe was delighted to fight another mismatch against viet for easy money. "very angry"? lol

4. Johnson was and is a decent fighter. not great though and calzaghe would be favourite but styles wise, it would have been difficult for calzaghe.

5. johnson turned down calzaghe yes, but he had been sh*t on 3 times by calzaghe and had paid for training and took time to train hard only to be told calzaghe was pulling out. THREE TIMES. its no wonder he had no time for calzaghe after the third pullout.

6. "yanks". i see your feelings about americans. and yes, the onus is on fighters from europe/asia/etc to GO TO THE STATES. thats what they must do. we can argue about this. all the big fights happen in the states on HBO/Showtime in the big venues in Vegas/New York. Every fighter wants to headline at madison square garden or the mgm grand and have their name in those lights. america has always been the mecca of boxing. so no, its not ok for a fighter to sit in his hometown and fight overmatched oppoenents instead of going to america to prove himself against the best. BECAUSE ALL OF THE BEST FIGHTERS GO TO AMERICA.

7. i never said reid was robbed against ottke. i said johnson was.

let me ask you a question. who is calzaghes best win? i can answer it... mikkel kessler... the same kessler andre ward embarrassed and stopped easily. very easily.

for a carrerr as long as calzaghes, its pretty embarrassing to only have the kessler win to brag about, when someone can laugh and mention what ward did to kessler.

you mention eubank, reid, sheika mitchell veit Kessler and Hopkins as calzaghes big wins. i genuinely started laughing when i read that list of "accomplishments". old eubank, disputed SD against reid that he wouldnt give a rematch to sort out, sheika (lol), mitchell (lol), veit (LOL), 44 year old hopkins who put him on his ass and was 1/4 on betfair just before the scorecards were read out (in fairness i had calzaghe wining by one point) and kessler.. well i've already dealt with that.

we will agree to disagree here though. :cool:

angry_bob · 30-05-2010 06:48PM

Vintagekits wrote: »

tur[in got lucky against Robinson when he was on a tour

I can only take it that you feel that Robinson did not take Turpin seriously and that he was fannying around, therefore lost. Unfortunately, your grasp on boxing history, is just as detached from reality as your opinions on Collins,
Benn, Eubanks, et al.

Robinson successfully defended the world middleweight title against Jake LaMotta in Chicago, then came to Europe where he engaged in a number of non-title bouts, leading to a title defence against Turpin, who was the European Midleweight cahmpion.

Please, don't reply to this, as I do not have the patience to correct you yet again.
Thanks.

Vintagekits · 30-05-2010 07:24PM

angry_bob wrote: »

I can only take it that you feel that Robinson did not take Turpin seriously and that he was fannying around, therefore lost. Unfortunately, your grasp on boxing history, is just as detached from reality as your opinions on Collins,
Benn, Eubanks, et al.

Robinson successfully defended the world middleweight title against Jake LaMotta in Chicago, then came to Europe where he engaged in a number of non-title bouts, leading to a title defence against Turpin, who was the European Midleweight cahmpion.

Please, don't reply to this, as I do not have the patience to correct you yet again.
Thanks.

So Robinson didnt have 6 fights in as many weeks leading up to the fight and didnt spark Turpin out two months later then I guess!?

angry_bob · 30-05-2010 10:12PM

Vintagekits wrote: »

So Robinson didnt have 6 fights in as many weeks leading up to the fight and didnt spark Turpin out two months later then I guess!?

Ahhh, you went and done it.

I Drink It Up! · 30-05-2010 11:34PM

walshb wrote: »

So, Robin Reid, Sakio Bika, and several others push Joe very close and a ferocious and aggressive puncher like Benn stands no chance against Joe, who does not have a grade A chin?

Joe, who was down against the fighters I mentioned, and hurt, is under no risk from Nigel Benn, a fighter who is far more deadly in finishing ability and raw punching power than the names I mentioned?

Benn at 168 lbs who went 12 rds with a far superior puncher in Eubank? Benn took hell from a massive hitter
like McClellan and was en route to 12 rds in that one too. No way Calzaghe comes close to
hurting Benn as much as Gerald. Benn I feel wouldn't fear Joe's power all that much

Joe, I admire, and he has his traits and talents, but punching power is not one, nor is a steel chin. You wanna' beat Benn you have to be heavy handed and have a very good chin. Joe doesn't. Not saying he couldn't beat Benn, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Well, I will say that those who are so damn confident in picking Calzaghe over Benn need their heads examined...

Yep. That Mike Watson was a thunderous puncher and had an iron chin. And that Steve Collins could crack like all hell. And I wont even get started on Malinga.:rolleyes:

The thing about Reid was that {a} Reid's was a 168lb man right from day one, with Olympic pedigree and a WBC strap of his own at one point and {b} Joe beat him with one hand.

Look at the guys that had Benn down....Collins, DeWitt, for example.....were they so heavy handed? Nope.

And of course, Nicky Piper, he was some legend wasn't he. What did he win? And he extended Nigel into the 11th.

Joe is too fast for Nigel and has a grossly under-appreciated size advantage.

walshb · 31-05-2010 07:05AM

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Yep. That Mike Watson was a thunderous puncher and had an iron chin. And that Steve Collins could crack like all hell. And I wont even get started on Malinga.:rolleyes:

The thing about Reid was that {a} Reid's was a 168lb man right from day one, with Olympic pedigree and a WBC strap of his own at one point and {b} Joe beat him with one hand.

Look at the guys that had Benn down....Collins, DeWitt, for example.....were they so heavy handed? Nope.

And of course, Nicky Piper, he was some legend wasn't he. What did he win? And he extended Nigel into the 11th.

Joe is too fast for Nigel and has a grossly under-appreciated size advantage.

Well, at least this time you actually tried to debate and put forward an argument.
A whole lot better than, "Anyone who thinks that Nigel Benn can take Joe Calzaghe needs their head examined."

I Drink It Up! · 31-05-2010 01:32PM

walshb wrote: »

Well, at least this time you actually tried to debate and put forward an argument.
A whole lot better than, "Anyone who thinks that Nigel Benn can take Joe Calzaghe needs their head examined."

That's fair enough

The way I see it, Joe, when the mood took him, could slip off and hit and not be hit.

I think the fact that Joe never lost, much less get KO'd tells you all you need to know about his chin and his physical resolve.

True, he did get dropped. The first time he got dropped he got back up and stopped his man moments later.

I mean, Carl Froch was hurt badly by Kessler....but Joe took his shots and made him look stupid down the stretch.

And Lacy, who is Benn-Sized.....never won a second of a minute of a round.

As I say, Joe was a big dude, eventually moving up to 175. His win over Hopkins is what makes me sure of his having no problems with Benn...Hopkins was cute, mean, and dirty as all hell.

Also...how many world-class southpaws did Benn ever fight?

keane2097 · 31-05-2010 02:22PM

angry_bob wrote: »

Ahhh, you went and done it.

A reply would be fairly interesting IMO since his post seems to have made complete bullshít of yours.

angry_bob · 31-05-2010 10:48PM

keane2097 wrote: »

A reply would be fairly interesting IMO since his post seems to have made complete bullshít of yours.

Don't know how you work that one out. I previously stated that Robinson had several warm-up non-title bouts in preparation for Turpin.

joe calzaghe - not respected in the states

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