joe calzaghe - not respected in the states

tennessee time

calzaghe gets no respect off boxing fans in the u.s, they call him joe cal slappy and seem to resent that he took down two of their legends late on in their careers, does he need one last big name on his resume in the states to seal his legacy?? the undefeated thing doesnt seem to mean much to them, i mean hatton was undefeated until he met mayweather

Vintagekits

tennessee time wrote: »

calzaghe gets no respect off boxing fans in the u.s, they call him joe cal slappy and seem to resent that he took down two of their legends late on in their careers, does he need one last big name on his resume in the states to seal his legacy?? the undefeated thing doesnt seem to mean much to them, i mean hatton was undefeated until he met mayweather

undefeated means little to anyone really. Its all about who you defeated!

eagle eye

tennessee time wrote: »

calzaghe gets no respect off boxing fans in the u.s, they call him joe cal slappy and seem to resent that he took down two of their legends late on in their careers, does he need one last big name on his resume in the states to seal his legacy?? the undefeated thing doesnt seem to mean much to them, i mean hatton was undefeated until he met mayweather

Have you a link to prove this stuff you are saying or did you just start a thread to get a Calzaghe bashing thread going?

Either way a lot of US boxing fans are just dumb, I mean they were raving about Jeff Lacy until he got destroyed by Joe.

joepenguin

His career was what it was. Not a fan of his technique ( hand probs or not ) and even though his record looks better than it is / should be, there wasnt a 168 lb fighter out there while he was champ that would have taken him imo.
Apparently Hopkins turned him down years ago for a fight so thats his own fault. Calzaghe would have never taken Jones in his prime but to be fair after a long career you cant begrudge him the dream fight, beating Roy Jones at the garden, that must have been awesome.

consultech

Not respected anywhere I would've thought?

walshb

joepenguin wrote: »

His career was what it was. Not a fan of his technique ( hand probs or not ) and even though his record looks better than it is / should be, there wasnt a 168 lb fighter out there while he was champ that would have taken him imo.
Apparently Hopkins turned him down years ago for a fight so thats his own fault. Calzaghe would have never taken Jones in his prime but to be fair after a long career you cant begrudge him the dream fight, beating Roy Jones at the garden, that must have been awesome.

+ 1.

I too am not a fan of his technique and thought he made for some sloppy
fights, but the guy was very difficult to overcome. Many tried and many failed.
The yanks thought Lacy was the real deal, so does anyone really lend credence
to their lack of respect for Joe?

BTW, I don't see any version of BHop beating Calzaghe. Joe was a 168 lber and Bhop
was content staying at 160 lbs. Yes, he moved up to 175, but BHop
was far from a great LH. Hopkins just was never busy enough to beat a fighter
like Calzaghe.

megadodge

tennessee time wrote: »

calzaghe gets no respect off boxing fans in the u.s, they call him joe cal slappy and seem to resent that he took down two of their legends late on in their careers, does he need one last big name on his resume in the states to seal his legacy??

I'm afraid you're accusing ALL American boxing fans of having the opinion of a few.

That's a silly generalisation as there are loads of US boxing fans who respect Calzaghe, it's just when various forum devotees don't like a fighter they just harp on and on and on about them and add childish namecalling to the bargain (a la 'Gayweather' and 'Pactard' etc.) and take up a lot of space on forums repeating themselves.

It's hard to take these people's opinions seriously.

megadodge

consultech wrote: »

Not respected anywhere I would've thought?

You thought wrong.

consultech

megadodge wrote: »

You thought wrong.

Who of learned boxing knowledge respects him/his career so?

walshb

Mega raised a point I was going to make myself, that there are many many American fans who do rate Calzaghe highly.

BTW, I would still love to hear a strong argument for fighters that Calzaghe should have met and bet?

Spazdarn

Those fans definitely don't post on forums then!

eagle eye

consultech wrote: »

Who of learned boxing knowledge respects him/his career so?

Who doesn't?

Halloween Jack

walshb wrote: »

Mega raised a point I was going to make myself, that there are many many American fans who do rate Calzaghe highly.

BTW, I would still love to hear a strong argument for fighters that Calzaghe should have met and bet?

Its a shame Joe wasn't a few years younger, some of the super six contestants
would make for cracking match - ups imo.

UrbanSea

Him being caught taking coke would hardly have done his popularity the world of good.

whaaames

I think joe was brilliant, he never based his game on being a teriffic technician or a silky mover; he was all about work rate and grinding opponents down, and he did that brillaintly...

Many fighters (Kessler, Lacy, Bika ) attempted to out do him and failed, he was brilliant at what he did and nobody can say any different...

Any fighter who can defend a title that many times and win so many times so convincingly has to be respected IMO

nacho libre

yes, you don't stay champ for 10 years and remain undefeated without being tested at some point. The only guy who would have beaten Calzaghe if they both met in their prime is Jones. Hopkins obviously didn't think he could do so when he used that classic avoidance topic of doubling his purse demand at the last minute.

walshb

I would think that a peak Toney at 168 lbs would have had a field day with Joe.

whaaames

walshb wrote: »

I would think that a peak Toney at 168 lbs would have had a field day with Joe.

That wouldve been interesting alrite, Toney was class himself, but then Jones beat Toney at 168 so he probley wouldve beaten both of them...

I think joe would have had problems with Steve Collins at super middle, Steve was raw strength, thats a fight i'd have really enjoyed watching...

cowzerp

nacho libre wrote: »

yes, you don't stay champ for 10 years and remain undefeated without being tested at some point. The only guy who would have beaten Calzaghe if they both met in their prime is Jones. Hopkins obviously didn't think he could do so when he used that classic avoidance topic of doubling his purse demand at the last minute.

Eubank would have Knocked Joe out at peak, Toney would have played with him before knocking him out..

If i remember correctly did joe not get lucky against Reid!

walshb

When Chris met Joe, BOTH were not peak, and Eubank was not all that far off peak. Chris I admire, but his style would only allow him have a KO chance, and lets be honest, he had that SAME chance in 1997 and couldn't KO
Joe. No, Eubank will always find Joe a real tough customer.

Toney's blend of skill, defense, accuracy and power would see him land easily enough on Joe, whilst most of Joe's shots would be hitting air and shoulders.

Joe beat Reid in a hard fought scrap fair and square.

I don't like watching Joe all that much, but the guy had great speed, volume and footwork, as well as super stamina, a good chin and a real winners mentality.

Why Toney would beat Joe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O279OFjtK9k 6 minutes of wizardry

joepenguin

While i agree that no 168 lber would have taken joe while he was champ from 97 on i do think that a prime toney and jones would take him out. Having said that they werent super middleweights when joe was so its just like saying he wouldnt have beaten a prime leonard etc. We can only judge fighters based on their opposition. ATG? Not really imo but certainly the best in his weight class and generation. Not a bad wee achievment!

nacho libre

nah a prime Toney wouldn't have beaten him a prime Calzaghe. The only guy Calzaghe would not have been able to handle at his peak was Jones.

paraguay99

The case against Calzaghe is simple.

He never tested himself when he had the chance. jones was up at 175, but he wasnt prepared to go up and fight him. He was "too scared of flying". However, he wasn't too scared of flying when he flew over to denmark to fight Will "kid fire" Mcintyre.

he held on to the WBO belt and fought garbage for too long. He never gave Robin Reid a rematch, after several had reid winning their fight. Say what you want but that was a controversial score in the minds of most. It was close enough to warrant a rematch but calzaghe said, "i don't do rematches". Well, that was interesting since he rematched Mario Veit in germany, another fighter he fought instead of stepping up and proving himself.

He beat Lacy, who was overhyped. seriously, what had lacy done before fighting calzaghe? what has he done afterwards? besides losing to jermain taylor and being KO'd by roy jones? The guy would have been outclassed whenever he stepped up. calzaghe was lucky to get there first. Does he deserve credit for that? yes of course, but lets not go overboard. "But the yanks all rated Lacy etc". Well they all rated Roy when he was in his prime but Calzaghe never went over to fight him? or to even try to fight him. Contrast that mindset to Steve Collins, who wouldn't shut up about Roy in every interview he had and even threatened to knock on Roys door and ask him why he wouldn't fight him.

He deserves credit for beating kessler, but look at kessler vs ward. Kessler lost every round and ward had a comfortable time, much more comfortable than calzaghe had. kessler has a weakness against fighters who have skills and are versatile and quick footed. Still, wards performance was 10x more impressive than calzaghes.

calzaghe blatantly ducked glen johnson three times. absolute blatant ducking. frank warren even had to pay johnson 100k after calzaghe ducked him on one occasion. Johnson would have given him a tough tough fight, he is no pushover for anybody. calzaghe lost my respect for messing him around.

he finally fought a 44 year old hopkins and got a split decision win. he got dropped by hopkins in the first round. i must repeat, hopkins was 44. on my card, hopkins won 5 rounds, calzaghe won 7 rounds. factor in the knockdown point and i had it a one point win for calzaghe. i have no doubt that a younger, fitter hopkins who didn't need to con for breaks and could fight 3 minutes of every round rather than 1.5 minutes would have beaten calzaghe handily. this view is shared by most, although some will disagree. however, they can see where i am coming from, considering 44 year old hopkins made it so close against calzaghe. and if you don't think it was close, well it's a shame you werent on betfair after the 12th round had completed because calzaghe was 4/1 to win on points just before the scorecards were read out.

he beat roy but that was the same roy who had been laid out cold by johnson and tarver. the same roy who had expressed pleasure at just going the distance with tarver in the third fight (and almost got KOd in that fight too). this same roy got done in 50 seconds against danny green of all people. and this same roy had calzaghe on his ass in the first round as well. calzaghe won the fight clearly though, but it meant nothing. prime jones beats him handily.

calzaghe never fought a great fighter in their prime. his best win is kessler... ward showed us how to deal with kessler. im sure dirrell will beat kessler too. Abraham vs kessler will be a good scrap though. kessler just has a weakness for movement and versatility, something froch couldnt do. i can't imagine calzaghe ever signing up for a super six tourney. he was happy to stay at home and fight against fighters he was heavily favoured to win against. the lacy and kessler fights were good wins, but look at what they have done since.. we can see their limitations abundantly.

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

I would think that a peak Toney at 168 lbs would have had a field day with Joe.

Toney was past his peak when Joe came along.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

Toney was past his peak when Joe came along.

I know, sure Toney was up at LH and above in 97'. I was talking/implying in a fantasy fights scenario.

Hence, "would have had a field day."

garhjw

calzaghe is over-rated. he picked and chose his fights. he refused to fight jones 10 years earlier when jones was in his prime. plus he is an arrogant welsh to**er.

garhjw

@ paraguay99, well said.......

eagle eye

paraguay99 wrote: »

The case against Calzaghe is simple.

He never tested himself when he had the chance. jones was up at 175, but he wasnt prepared to go up and fight him. He was "too scared of flying". However, he wasn't too scared of flying when he flew over to denmark to fight Will "kid fire" Mcintyre.

Jones wasn't interested in fighting Calzaghe in his prime so this is wrong.

paraguay99 wrote: »

he held on to the WBO belt and fought garbage for too long. He never gave Robin Reid a rematch, after several had reid winning their fight. Say what you want but that was a controversial score in the minds of most. It was close enough to warrant a rematch but calzaghe said, "i don't do rematches". Well, that was interesting since he rematched Mario Veit in germany, another fighter he fought instead of stepping up and proving himself.

Who did Robin Reid beat to put himself in contention for another crack at the title? He lost his next fight after Calzaghe and never beat anybody of note after that, although he was robbed in Germany.
As for Veit, the only reason he got a rematch was because he became the WBO interim champ and he was a mandatory challenger as a result.

paraguay99 wrote: »

He beat Lacy, who was overhyped. seriously, what had lacy done before fighting calzaghe? what has he done afterwards? besides losing to jermain taylor and being KO'd by roy jones? The guy would have been outclassed whenever he stepped up. calzaghe was lucky to get there first. Does he deserve credit for that? yes of course, but lets not go overboard. "But the yanks all rated Lacy etc". Well they all rated Roy when he was in his prime but Calzaghe never went over to fight him? or to even try to fight him. Contrast that mindset to Steve Collins, who wouldn't shut up about Roy in every interview he had and even threatened to knock on Roys door and ask him why he wouldn't fight him.

The same Lacy was a huge favourite to beat Calzaghe in the eyes of the American boxing public. And Lacy destroyed Reid too but of course that means nothing to you.
This thead is not about Steve Collins but seeming you bring him up, he turned down Calzaghe.

paraguay99 wrote: »

He deserves credit for beating kessler, but look at kessler vs ward. Kessler lost every round and ward had a comfortable time, much more comfortable than calzaghe had. kessler has a weakness against fighters who have skills and are versatile and quick footed. Still, wards performance was 10x more impressive than calzaghes.
Calzaghe took out an unbeaten Kessler. Many fighters fall apart after they lose their unbeaten status.
calzaghe blatantly ducked glen johnson three times. absolute blatant ducking. frank warren even had to pay johnson 100k after calzaghe ducked him on one occasion. Johnson would have given him a tough tough fight, he is no pushover for anybody. calzaghe lost my respect for messing him around.

This is the greatest joke of everything in your post.
Clazaghe was plagued with hand injuries at the end of his career, everybody knows that, and its the only reason that fight never happened.
When Calzaghe was supposed to fight Glen Johnson, it was almost a Glen who? He was nothing at that stage, he had lost to Sheika, Ottke and a number of average fighters. He never had a big rep at super middle.
And Calzaghe would have destroyed Johnson anyways. The reason Johnson got a name for himself is that he beat Roy Jones jnr but that was after Jones had been ko'd by Tarver and RJJ was never the same fighter after that.

paraguay99 wrote: »

he finally fought a 44 year old hopkins and got a split decision win. he got dropped by hopkins in the first round. i must repeat, hopkins was 44. on my card, hopkins won 5 rounds, calzaghe won 7 rounds. factor in the knockdown point and i had it a one point win for calzaghe. i have no doubt that a younger, fitter hopkins who didn't need to con for breaks and could fight 3 minutes of every round rather than 1.5 minutes would have beaten calzaghe handily. this view is shared by most, although some will disagree. however, they can see where i am coming from, considering 44 year old hopkins made it so close against calzaghe. and if you don't think it was close, well it's a shame you werent on betfair after the 12th round had completed because calzaghe was 4/1 to win on points just before the scorecards were read out.

Now you talk about Hopkins who deliberately ducked Calzaghe by doubling his price at the last minute. You don't bring that up though, why? Is is because yet again you want to talk rubbish and don't want to give any credit to Joe?
And of course you call Hopkins an old man suggesting he was finished but you don't mention that he has won all his fights since including a dominating win over Kelly Pavlik.

paraguay99 wrote: »

he beat roy but that was the same roy who had been laid out cold by johnson and tarver. the same roy who had expressed pleasure at just going the distance with tarver in the third fight (and almost got KOd in that fight too). this same roy got done in 50 seconds against danny green of all people. and this same roy had calzaghe on his ass in the first round as well. calzaghe won the fight clearly though, but it meant nothing. prime jones beats him handily.

Yeah Roy was finished but it was a case of Joe getting the guys that wanted nothing to do with him when he was in his prime. That was his last two fights, Hopkins who ducked him and RJJ who wouldn't even consider him.

paraguay99 wrote: »

calzaghe never fought a great fighter in their prime. his best win is kessler... ward showed us how to deal with kessler. im sure dirrell will beat kessler too. Abraham vs kessler will be a good scrap though. kessler just has a weakness for movement and versatility, something froch couldnt do. i can't imagine calzaghe ever signing up for a super six tourney. he was happy to stay at home and fight against fighters he was heavily favoured to win against. the lacy and kessler fights were good wins, but look at what they have done since.. we can see their limitations abundantly.

Your post is horrendous, its full of bluster and downright lies. Calzaghe never ducked Jones, hand injuries were the reason he didn't fight the very average super middleweight Glen Johson and it was never a big deal but you say he ducked him and don't mention the injuries. You intimate that Hopkins was finished but he hasn't lost since. You throw out that he 'gave' Veit a rematch but we all know that he was a mandatory for that second fight.

Joe Calzaghe wanted Hopkins and Jones when he was in his prime, he never ducked anybody. Calzaghe is the greatest British boxer of all time and possibly the best pound for pound ever from outside the Americas.

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

I know, sure Toney was up at LH and above in 97'. I was talking/implying in a fantasy fights scenario.

Hence, "would have had a field day."

Well I wouldn't disagree, and Toney was one of my all time favourites. I'll never forget the night RJJ schooled him though, I thought that was going to be a very close fight and I actually fancied Toney tbh.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

Well I wouldn't disagree, and Toney was one of my all time favourites. I'll never forget the night RJJ schooled him though, I thought that was going to be a very close fight and I actually fancied Toney tbh.

As far as I know, Toney was the betting favorite for that fight, especially after his wins over a very decent Tim Littles, and after he had to basically KO Littles due to a horrible gash on his eye. He also had a very good win over the bigger Prince Charles Williams.

Toney had major issues in making weight too. The actual Jones fight was poor. He didn't beat up Toney at all, he simply stayed a step or two ahead of him. Poor fight.

It's Toney's chin and defense and guile that I really admire. If Jones had Toney's chin he would have never lost to Tarver and Johnson by KO.

You know, I will always maintain that of all the fighters I have ever seen, Toney is the one that I would say would be the most difficult to KO/TKO. It's not just the solid chin, but the ridiculous defence too. He's so hard to nail, and nail consistently.

Tyson, Dempsey, Foreman, Liston and all them wouldn't KO the guy; hey, they would beat him, but he would look competitive vs. any man. It's the style he possesses.

Jones at any stage fights these guys, and when they land flush, he is history

whaaames

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/2525353.stm
BBC comparing Joe to the best of the English and Irish Super Middleweights of the 80s/90s

This is interesting, and makes for good reading considering the current topic.
I dont agree with all the results but its well worth a read

Maybe post your own opinions/conclusions/results after reading it...???