joe calzaghe - not respected in the states

tennessee time

calzaghe gets no respect off boxing fans in the u.s, they call him joe cal slappy and seem to resent that he took down two of their legends late on in their careers, does he need one last big name on his resume in the states to seal his legacy?? the undefeated thing doesnt seem to mean much to them, i mean hatton was undefeated until he met mayweather

Vintagekits

tennessee time wrote: »

calzaghe gets no respect off boxing fans in the u.s, they call him joe cal slappy and seem to resent that he took down two of their legends late on in their careers, does he need one last big name on his resume in the states to seal his legacy?? the undefeated thing doesnt seem to mean much to them, i mean hatton was undefeated until he met mayweather

undefeated means little to anyone really. Its all about who you defeated!

eagle eye

tennessee time wrote: »

calzaghe gets no respect off boxing fans in the u.s, they call him joe cal slappy and seem to resent that he took down two of their legends late on in their careers, does he need one last big name on his resume in the states to seal his legacy?? the undefeated thing doesnt seem to mean much to them, i mean hatton was undefeated until he met mayweather

Have you a link to prove this stuff you are saying or did you just start a thread to get a Calzaghe bashing thread going?

Either way a lot of US boxing fans are just dumb, I mean they were raving about Jeff Lacy until he got destroyed by Joe.

joepenguin

His career was what it was. Not a fan of his technique ( hand probs or not ) and even though his record looks better than it is / should be, there wasnt a 168 lb fighter out there while he was champ that would have taken him imo.
Apparently Hopkins turned him down years ago for a fight so thats his own fault. Calzaghe would have never taken Jones in his prime but to be fair after a long career you cant begrudge him the dream fight, beating Roy Jones at the garden, that must have been awesome.

consultech

Not respected anywhere I would've thought?

walshb

joepenguin wrote: »

His career was what it was. Not a fan of his technique ( hand probs or not ) and even though his record looks better than it is / should be, there wasnt a 168 lb fighter out there while he was champ that would have taken him imo.
Apparently Hopkins turned him down years ago for a fight so thats his own fault. Calzaghe would have never taken Jones in his prime but to be fair after a long career you cant begrudge him the dream fight, beating Roy Jones at the garden, that must have been awesome.

+ 1.

I too am not a fan of his technique and thought he made for some sloppy
fights, but the guy was very difficult to overcome. Many tried and many failed.
The yanks thought Lacy was the real deal, so does anyone really lend credence
to their lack of respect for Joe?

BTW, I don't see any version of BHop beating Calzaghe. Joe was a 168 lber and Bhop
was content staying at 160 lbs. Yes, he moved up to 175, but BHop
was far from a great LH. Hopkins just was never busy enough to beat a fighter
like Calzaghe.

megadodge

tennessee time wrote: »

calzaghe gets no respect off boxing fans in the u.s, they call him joe cal slappy and seem to resent that he took down two of their legends late on in their careers, does he need one last big name on his resume in the states to seal his legacy??

I'm afraid you're accusing ALL American boxing fans of having the opinion of a few.

That's a silly generalisation as there are loads of US boxing fans who respect Calzaghe, it's just when various forum devotees don't like a fighter they just harp on and on and on about them and add childish namecalling to the bargain (a la 'Gayweather' and 'Pactard' etc.) and take up a lot of space on forums repeating themselves.

It's hard to take these people's opinions seriously.

megadodge

consultech wrote: »

Not respected anywhere I would've thought?

You thought wrong.

consultech

megadodge wrote: »

You thought wrong.

Who of learned boxing knowledge respects him/his career so?

walshb

Mega raised a point I was going to make myself, that there are many many American fans who do rate Calzaghe highly.

BTW, I would still love to hear a strong argument for fighters that Calzaghe should have met and bet?

Spazdarn

Those fans definitely don't post on forums then!

eagle eye

consultech wrote: »

Who of learned boxing knowledge respects him/his career so?

Who doesn't?

Halloween Jack

walshb wrote: »

Mega raised a point I was going to make myself, that there are many many American fans who do rate Calzaghe highly.

BTW, I would still love to hear a strong argument for fighters that Calzaghe should have met and bet?

Its a shame Joe wasn't a few years younger, some of the super six contestants
would make for cracking match - ups imo.

UrbanSea

Him being caught taking coke would hardly have done his popularity the world of good.

whaaames

I think joe was brilliant, he never based his game on being a teriffic technician or a silky mover; he was all about work rate and grinding opponents down, and he did that brillaintly...

Many fighters (Kessler, Lacy, Bika ) attempted to out do him and failed, he was brilliant at what he did and nobody can say any different...

Any fighter who can defend a title that many times and win so many times so convincingly has to be respected IMO

nacho libre

yes, you don't stay champ for 10 years and remain undefeated without being tested at some point. The only guy who would have beaten Calzaghe if they both met in their prime is Jones. Hopkins obviously didn't think he could do so when he used that classic avoidance topic of doubling his purse demand at the last minute.

walshb

I would think that a peak Toney at 168 lbs would have had a field day with Joe.

whaaames

walshb wrote: »

I would think that a peak Toney at 168 lbs would have had a field day with Joe.

That wouldve been interesting alrite, Toney was class himself, but then Jones beat Toney at 168 so he probley wouldve beaten both of them...

I think joe would have had problems with Steve Collins at super middle, Steve was raw strength, thats a fight i'd have really enjoyed watching...

cowzerp

nacho libre wrote: »

yes, you don't stay champ for 10 years and remain undefeated without being tested at some point. The only guy who would have beaten Calzaghe if they both met in their prime is Jones. Hopkins obviously didn't think he could do so when he used that classic avoidance topic of doubling his purse demand at the last minute.

Eubank would have Knocked Joe out at peak, Toney would have played with him before knocking him out..

If i remember correctly did joe not get lucky against Reid!

walshb

When Chris met Joe, BOTH were not peak, and Eubank was not all that far off peak. Chris I admire, but his style would only allow him have a KO chance, and lets be honest, he had that SAME chance in 1997 and couldn't KO
Joe. No, Eubank will always find Joe a real tough customer.

Toney's blend of skill, defense, accuracy and power would see him land easily enough on Joe, whilst most of Joe's shots would be hitting air and shoulders.

Joe beat Reid in a hard fought scrap fair and square.

I don't like watching Joe all that much, but the guy had great speed, volume and footwork, as well as super stamina, a good chin and a real winners mentality.

Why Toney would beat Joe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O279OFjtK9k 6 minutes of wizardry

joepenguin

While i agree that no 168 lber would have taken joe while he was champ from 97 on i do think that a prime toney and jones would take him out. Having said that they werent super middleweights when joe was so its just like saying he wouldnt have beaten a prime leonard etc. We can only judge fighters based on their opposition. ATG? Not really imo but certainly the best in his weight class and generation. Not a bad wee achievment!

nacho libre

nah a prime Toney wouldn't have beaten him a prime Calzaghe. The only guy Calzaghe would not have been able to handle at his peak was Jones.

paraguay99

The case against Calzaghe is simple.

He never tested himself when he had the chance. jones was up at 175, but he wasnt prepared to go up and fight him. He was "too scared of flying". However, he wasn't too scared of flying when he flew over to denmark to fight Will "kid fire" Mcintyre.

he held on to the WBO belt and fought garbage for too long. He never gave Robin Reid a rematch, after several had reid winning their fight. Say what you want but that was a controversial score in the minds of most. It was close enough to warrant a rematch but calzaghe said, "i don't do rematches". Well, that was interesting since he rematched Mario Veit in germany, another fighter he fought instead of stepping up and proving himself.

He beat Lacy, who was overhyped. seriously, what had lacy done before fighting calzaghe? what has he done afterwards? besides losing to jermain taylor and being KO'd by roy jones? The guy would have been outclassed whenever he stepped up. calzaghe was lucky to get there first. Does he deserve credit for that? yes of course, but lets not go overboard. "But the yanks all rated Lacy etc". Well they all rated Roy when he was in his prime but Calzaghe never went over to fight him? or to even try to fight him. Contrast that mindset to Steve Collins, who wouldn't shut up about Roy in every interview he had and even threatened to knock on Roys door and ask him why he wouldn't fight him.

He deserves credit for beating kessler, but look at kessler vs ward. Kessler lost every round and ward had a comfortable time, much more comfortable than calzaghe had. kessler has a weakness against fighters who have skills and are versatile and quick footed. Still, wards performance was 10x more impressive than calzaghes.

calzaghe blatantly ducked glen johnson three times. absolute blatant ducking. frank warren even had to pay johnson 100k after calzaghe ducked him on one occasion. Johnson would have given him a tough tough fight, he is no pushover for anybody. calzaghe lost my respect for messing him around.

he finally fought a 44 year old hopkins and got a split decision win. he got dropped by hopkins in the first round. i must repeat, hopkins was 44. on my card, hopkins won 5 rounds, calzaghe won 7 rounds. factor in the knockdown point and i had it a one point win for calzaghe. i have no doubt that a younger, fitter hopkins who didn't need to con for breaks and could fight 3 minutes of every round rather than 1.5 minutes would have beaten calzaghe handily. this view is shared by most, although some will disagree. however, they can see where i am coming from, considering 44 year old hopkins made it so close against calzaghe. and if you don't think it was close, well it's a shame you werent on betfair after the 12th round had completed because calzaghe was 4/1 to win on points just before the scorecards were read out.

he beat roy but that was the same roy who had been laid out cold by johnson and tarver. the same roy who had expressed pleasure at just going the distance with tarver in the third fight (and almost got KOd in that fight too). this same roy got done in 50 seconds against danny green of all people. and this same roy had calzaghe on his ass in the first round as well. calzaghe won the fight clearly though, but it meant nothing. prime jones beats him handily.

calzaghe never fought a great fighter in their prime. his best win is kessler... ward showed us how to deal with kessler. im sure dirrell will beat kessler too. Abraham vs kessler will be a good scrap though. kessler just has a weakness for movement and versatility, something froch couldnt do. i can't imagine calzaghe ever signing up for a super six tourney. he was happy to stay at home and fight against fighters he was heavily favoured to win against. the lacy and kessler fights were good wins, but look at what they have done since.. we can see their limitations abundantly.

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

I would think that a peak Toney at 168 lbs would have had a field day with Joe.

Toney was past his peak when Joe came along.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

Toney was past his peak when Joe came along.

I know, sure Toney was up at LH and above in 97'. I was talking/implying in a fantasy fights scenario.

Hence, "would have had a field day."

garhjw

calzaghe is over-rated. he picked and chose his fights. he refused to fight jones 10 years earlier when jones was in his prime. plus he is an arrogant welsh to**er.

garhjw

@ paraguay99, well said.......

eagle eye

paraguay99 wrote: »

The case against Calzaghe is simple.

He never tested himself when he had the chance. jones was up at 175, but he wasnt prepared to go up and fight him. He was "too scared of flying". However, he wasn't too scared of flying when he flew over to denmark to fight Will "kid fire" Mcintyre.

Jones wasn't interested in fighting Calzaghe in his prime so this is wrong.

paraguay99 wrote: »

he held on to the WBO belt and fought garbage for too long. He never gave Robin Reid a rematch, after several had reid winning their fight. Say what you want but that was a controversial score in the minds of most. It was close enough to warrant a rematch but calzaghe said, "i don't do rematches". Well, that was interesting since he rematched Mario Veit in germany, another fighter he fought instead of stepping up and proving himself.

Who did Robin Reid beat to put himself in contention for another crack at the title? He lost his next fight after Calzaghe and never beat anybody of note after that, although he was robbed in Germany.
As for Veit, the only reason he got a rematch was because he became the WBO interim champ and he was a mandatory challenger as a result.

paraguay99 wrote: »

He beat Lacy, who was overhyped. seriously, what had lacy done before fighting calzaghe? what has he done afterwards? besides losing to jermain taylor and being KO'd by roy jones? The guy would have been outclassed whenever he stepped up. calzaghe was lucky to get there first. Does he deserve credit for that? yes of course, but lets not go overboard. "But the yanks all rated Lacy etc". Well they all rated Roy when he was in his prime but Calzaghe never went over to fight him? or to even try to fight him. Contrast that mindset to Steve Collins, who wouldn't shut up about Roy in every interview he had and even threatened to knock on Roys door and ask him why he wouldn't fight him.

The same Lacy was a huge favourite to beat Calzaghe in the eyes of the American boxing public. And Lacy destroyed Reid too but of course that means nothing to you.
This thead is not about Steve Collins but seeming you bring him up, he turned down Calzaghe.

paraguay99 wrote: »

He deserves credit for beating kessler, but look at kessler vs ward. Kessler lost every round and ward had a comfortable time, much more comfortable than calzaghe had. kessler has a weakness against fighters who have skills and are versatile and quick footed. Still, wards performance was 10x more impressive than calzaghes.
Calzaghe took out an unbeaten Kessler. Many fighters fall apart after they lose their unbeaten status.
calzaghe blatantly ducked glen johnson three times. absolute blatant ducking. frank warren even had to pay johnson 100k after calzaghe ducked him on one occasion. Johnson would have given him a tough tough fight, he is no pushover for anybody. calzaghe lost my respect for messing him around.

This is the greatest joke of everything in your post.
Clazaghe was plagued with hand injuries at the end of his career, everybody knows that, and its the only reason that fight never happened.
When Calzaghe was supposed to fight Glen Johnson, it was almost a Glen who? He was nothing at that stage, he had lost to Sheika, Ottke and a number of average fighters. He never had a big rep at super middle.
And Calzaghe would have destroyed Johnson anyways. The reason Johnson got a name for himself is that he beat Roy Jones jnr but that was after Jones had been ko'd by Tarver and RJJ was never the same fighter after that.

paraguay99 wrote: »

he finally fought a 44 year old hopkins and got a split decision win. he got dropped by hopkins in the first round. i must repeat, hopkins was 44. on my card, hopkins won 5 rounds, calzaghe won 7 rounds. factor in the knockdown point and i had it a one point win for calzaghe. i have no doubt that a younger, fitter hopkins who didn't need to con for breaks and could fight 3 minutes of every round rather than 1.5 minutes would have beaten calzaghe handily. this view is shared by most, although some will disagree. however, they can see where i am coming from, considering 44 year old hopkins made it so close against calzaghe. and if you don't think it was close, well it's a shame you werent on betfair after the 12th round had completed because calzaghe was 4/1 to win on points just before the scorecards were read out.

Now you talk about Hopkins who deliberately ducked Calzaghe by doubling his price at the last minute. You don't bring that up though, why? Is is because yet again you want to talk rubbish and don't want to give any credit to Joe?
And of course you call Hopkins an old man suggesting he was finished but you don't mention that he has won all his fights since including a dominating win over Kelly Pavlik.

paraguay99 wrote: »

he beat roy but that was the same roy who had been laid out cold by johnson and tarver. the same roy who had expressed pleasure at just going the distance with tarver in the third fight (and almost got KOd in that fight too). this same roy got done in 50 seconds against danny green of all people. and this same roy had calzaghe on his ass in the first round as well. calzaghe won the fight clearly though, but it meant nothing. prime jones beats him handily.

Yeah Roy was finished but it was a case of Joe getting the guys that wanted nothing to do with him when he was in his prime. That was his last two fights, Hopkins who ducked him and RJJ who wouldn't even consider him.

paraguay99 wrote: »

calzaghe never fought a great fighter in their prime. his best win is kessler... ward showed us how to deal with kessler. im sure dirrell will beat kessler too. Abraham vs kessler will be a good scrap though. kessler just has a weakness for movement and versatility, something froch couldnt do. i can't imagine calzaghe ever signing up for a super six tourney. he was happy to stay at home and fight against fighters he was heavily favoured to win against. the lacy and kessler fights were good wins, but look at what they have done since.. we can see their limitations abundantly.

Your post is horrendous, its full of bluster and downright lies. Calzaghe never ducked Jones, hand injuries were the reason he didn't fight the very average super middleweight Glen Johson and it was never a big deal but you say he ducked him and don't mention the injuries. You intimate that Hopkins was finished but he hasn't lost since. You throw out that he 'gave' Veit a rematch but we all know that he was a mandatory for that second fight.

Joe Calzaghe wanted Hopkins and Jones when he was in his prime, he never ducked anybody. Calzaghe is the greatest British boxer of all time and possibly the best pound for pound ever from outside the Americas.

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

I know, sure Toney was up at LH and above in 97'. I was talking/implying in a fantasy fights scenario.

Hence, "would have had a field day."

Well I wouldn't disagree, and Toney was one of my all time favourites. I'll never forget the night RJJ schooled him though, I thought that was going to be a very close fight and I actually fancied Toney tbh.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

Well I wouldn't disagree, and Toney was one of my all time favourites. I'll never forget the night RJJ schooled him though, I thought that was going to be a very close fight and I actually fancied Toney tbh.

As far as I know, Toney was the betting favorite for that fight, especially after his wins over a very decent Tim Littles, and after he had to basically KO Littles due to a horrible gash on his eye. He also had a very good win over the bigger Prince Charles Williams.

Toney had major issues in making weight too. The actual Jones fight was poor. He didn't beat up Toney at all, he simply stayed a step or two ahead of him. Poor fight.

It's Toney's chin and defense and guile that I really admire. If Jones had Toney's chin he would have never lost to Tarver and Johnson by KO.

You know, I will always maintain that of all the fighters I have ever seen, Toney is the one that I would say would be the most difficult to KO/TKO. It's not just the solid chin, but the ridiculous defence too. He's so hard to nail, and nail consistently.

Tyson, Dempsey, Foreman, Liston and all them wouldn't KO the guy; hey, they would beat him, but he would look competitive vs. any man. It's the style he possesses.

Jones at any stage fights these guys, and when they land flush, he is history

whaaames

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/2525353.stm
BBC comparing Joe to the best of the English and Irish Super Middleweights of the 80s/90s

This is interesting, and makes for good reading considering the current topic.
I dont agree with all the results but its well worth a read

Maybe post your own opinions/conclusions/results after reading it...???

walshb

I agree and think that Joe would be far too polished for Collins and that poser and messer, Graham.

Eubank has as much chance at peak as he did in 1997. I don't see a 1994 Eubank doing all that much better. Chris was never the busiest fighter and would rely on his punch. That alone won't do it.

Watson doesn't possess the firepower to discourage Joe and would be outpointed by the faster and busier Calzaghe.

Benn to me is the real danger man. He is so so aggressive and hits so hard. Joe will taste Benn's shots, and I think I would back Benn to get a KO. Joe's chin is good, but not as sturdy as Eubank or Collins. Joe is hurt, dropped, and you won't see Benn hanging around like an old Hopkins or Jones. Benn will be out to kill with ferocious follow ups.

To beat Benn you really got to hurt him; I just don't think Joe hits hard enough to really trouble Benn.

paraguay99

eagle eye wrote: »

Jones wasn't interested in fighting Calzaghe in his prime so this is wrong.

Who did Robin Reid beat to put himself in contention for another crack at the title? He lost his next fight after Calzaghe and never beat anybody of note after that, although he was robbed in Germany.
As for Veit, the only reason he got a rematch was because he became the WBO interim champ and he was a mandatory challenger as a result.

The same Lacy was a huge favourite to beat Calzaghe in the eyes of the American boxing public. And Lacy destroyed Reid too but of course that means nothing to you.
This thead is not about Steve Collins but seeming you bring him up, he turned down Calzaghe.


This is the greatest joke of everything in your post.
Clazaghe was plagued with hand injuries at the end of his career, everybody knows that, and its the only reason that fight never happened.
When Calzaghe was supposed to fight Glen Johnson, it was almost a Glen who? He was nothing at that stage, he had lost to Sheika, Ottke and a number of average fighters. He never had a big rep at super middle.
And Calzaghe would have destroyed Johnson anyways. The reason Johnson got a name for himself is that he beat Roy Jones jnr but that was after Jones had been ko'd by Tarver and RJJ was never the same fighter after that.

Now you talk about Hopkins who deliberately ducked Calzaghe by doubling his price at the last minute. You don't bring that up though, why? Is is because yet again you want to talk rubbish and don't want to give any credit to Joe?
And of course you call Hopkins an old man suggesting he was finished but you don't mention that he has won all his fights since including a dominating win over Kelly Pavlik.

Yeah Roy was finished but it was a case of Joe getting the guys that wanted nothing to do with him when he was in his prime. That was his last two fights, Hopkins who ducked him and RJJ who wouldn't even consider him.

Your post is horrendous, its full of bluster and downright lies. Calzaghe never ducked Jones, hand injuries were the reason he didn't fight the very average super middleweight Glen Johson and it was never a big deal but you say he ducked him and don't mention the injuries. You intimate that Hopkins was finished but he hasn't lost since. You throw out that he 'gave' Veit a rematch but we all know that he was a mandatory for that second fight.

Joe Calzaghe wanted Hopkins and Jones when he was in his prime, he never ducked anybody. Calzaghe is the greatest British boxer of all time and possibly the best pound for pound ever from outside the Americas.

Jones wasn't interested in fighting calzgahe... laughable. Calzaghe was the one staying his his comfort zone. He wanted nothing to do with jones and has admitted that he thinks prime jones would have beaten him. i mention steve collins purely because he had the mindset of proving himself against the best and called jones out extensively while calzaghe was happy fighting garbage.

you cant seem to understand that lacy is a poor fighter who got beaten by jermain taylor and KNOCKED OUT by the shell of roy jones.

you accept the mario veit rematch too easily. it was a pointless rematch and you never mention the point i make about calzaghe saying he "doesnt do rematches" and then rematching viet and not reid. Reid deserved a rematch because the public was calling for it and because the split decision was a controversial decision.

tell me about the terms on the hopkins fight that was agreed upon before hopkins increased his asking price. where was the fight to happen? how much was hopkins to get? why didn't joe go to america when hopkins was a young man and call him out. probably because he didn't want the fight...

glen johnson was a solid fighter and still is a solid fighter and would have been a tough fight for any body. calzaghe never fancied the job and pulled out three times. he still fought on and never gave johnson a fight so your excuses don't hold. and i am sure calzaghe used back injuries as well as hand injuries for his excuses so you were simply making excuses about hand injuries without even knowing anything about what the reasons were. clearly you are going to excuse calzaghe of anything.

hopkins is still a good fighter. but he is in his mid fourties. he beat pavlik due to styles as any slick fighter would. look what sergio martinez did to pavlik. calzaghe would have done something similar. im not saying hopkins is poor now, what i am saying is that he was much much better years ago and when he was, calzaghe gave him a substandard offer to fight in wales. he and warren could have agreed to hopkins demands to make the fight but calzaghe wasn't too pushed. why not give up the WBO garbage title and come to america at that time?

probably the funniest thing in your post is that roy wanted none of calzaghe when roy was in his prime when calzaghe is on record as saying he thoght prime roy would have beaten him! hmmm.. wonder why he never pushed for the fight then...

no doubt calzaghe was a great fighter.. but never fought another great fighter in their prime. his fans can only bring up the lacy fight (lol) and the kessler fight. and we know what andre ward did to kessler.

the sad thing is, joe might have done well if he had come to america and had the heart to prove himself. hed have falled short against the likes of roy and hopkins, but would get much more respect in america. now go to any american boxing forum and mention his name... you'll find that most of the fans agree that he never had the desire to fight the great fighters when they were in their primes.

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

I agree and think that Joe would be far too polished for Collins and that poser and messer, Graham.

Eubank has as much chance at peak as he did in 1997. I don't see a 1994 Eubank doing all that much better. Chris was never the busiest fighter and would rely on his punch. That alone won't do it.

Watson doesn't possess the firepower to discourage Joe and would be outpointed by the faster and busier Calzaghe.

Benn to me is the real danger man. He is so so aggressive and hits so hard. Joe will taste Benn's shots, and I think I would back Benn to get a KO. Joe's chin is good, but not as sturdy as Eubank or Collins. Joe is hurt, dropped, and you won't see Benn hanging around like an old Hopkins or Jones. Benn will be out to kill with ferocious follow ups.

To beat Benn you really got to hurt him; I just don't think Joe hits hard enough to really trouble Benn.

I liked Benn too but I can't agree with you here. I think Benn's aggressiveness is his undoing against Joe. I think he gets caught too often as he tries to catch Calzaghe and I think the fight finishes early but in Joe's favour.

walshb

If Joe had real power then I see him halting Benn, but Benn withstood Eubank and Gerald for a fair few rds; no, I just don't see Calzaghe's shots deterring Benn and ending this, at least not early.

Benn early would be all over Calzaghe and throwing monster hits that require either a combination of Toney's chin AND defence, or Eubank's chin.

Joe's defence wasn't magnificent, he could be hit, hurt and dropped, and against Benn it would be relentless and very heavy.

nacho libre

by the end he could be hit and hurt. in his prime Calzaghe would have been a step too quick for Benn. While he wouldn't knock Benn out with one punch the accumulative damage would eventually lead to a ko.

I agree about Ward also probably beating a prime Calzaghe. There is the argument put forward that kessler was slightly in decline against Ward but i don't think that was it, he just couldn't handle Ward's speed and movement.

Anyway i make Ward the favourite to win the super six tournament. Dirrell will be his trickiest opponent.

walshb

I guess what I am saying is that vs. Benn I feel Joe would be at his most vulnerable. I would place my bets on Joe beating Collins, Eubank, Graham and Watson before I would bet on him defeating Benn. All to do with power, aggressiveness and style.

I would make Nigel the slight favorite here, 60-40 Benn

whaaames

I reckon Joe would've been too much for Herol Graham, his work rate would've saw him through and Graham would have been worn down by Joe to the point where he too far behind to do anything other than go for the KO, and left himself open. Its Joe by a late stoppage for me

I agree with the posts before, we saw what Joe did to Eubank in 97' and 2/3 years wouldn't have made that much of a difference, maybe Eubank would've been a bit more elusive and a tad sharper but it's still a Calzaghe decision for me.

I'm probably a bit biased on this one, but i think Collins would've been a lot to handle for Joe, he would've been raw strength and determination and kept coming forward for 12 rounds, but then again it wasn't in Joe's nature to do anything other than work for 12 rounds either so this would've been close, if it came down to it i reckon Steves' willingness to come foreward and fight wouldve been his undoing and Joe's workrate and pure volume would've carried him through. For me it's Joe on a split Decision

Michael Watson, brilliant boxer and tremendous athlete and would’ve kept Joe very busy all night, I’d imagine he would’ve known exactly what he needed to do and would’ve trained extremely hard to move and stay away from Joe’s volume of punches, he would’ve went in with the intention of a points win IMO and would’ve have been far off, however Joe would’ve seen how Watson boxed and knew what he had to do. Controversially I’m going for a Watson split decision, for me he out boxes Joe and evades him enough to win on points


Nigel Benn! Bar Collins, probably the most powerful of the lot and would’ve started like a frate train against Joe, I’d have him winning 3 or 4 of the first 5 but I agree that his doggedness and aggression would eventually be his undoing, After Joe weathers the early storm he’d steady himself and his onslaught would chip away at Benn until he’d be back on track and would grind out a points win through effort. I’d have Joe winning by unanimous decision

Just my opinion...

eagle eye

paraguay99 wrote: »

Jones wasn't interested in fighting calzgahe... laughable. Calzaghe was the one staying his his comfort zone. He wanted nothing to do with jones and has admitted that he thinks prime jones would have beaten him. i mention steve collins purely because he had the mindset of proving himself against the best and called jones out extensively while calzaghe was happy fighting garbage.

you cant seem to understand that lacy is a poor fighter who got beaten by jermain taylor and KNOCKED OUT by the shell of roy jones.

you accept the mario veit rematch too easily. it was a pointless rematch and you never mention the point i make about calzaghe saying he "doesnt do rematches" and then rematching viet and not reid. Reid deserved a rematch because the public was calling for it and because the split decision was a controversial decision.

tell me about the terms on the hopkins fight that was agreed upon before hopkins increased his asking price. where was the fight to happen? how much was hopkins to get? why didn't joe go to america when hopkins was a young man and call him out. probably because he didn't want the fight...

glen johnson was a solid fighter and still is a solid fighter and would have been a tough fight for any body. calzaghe never fancied the job and pulled out three times. he still fought on and never gave johnson a fight so your excuses don't hold. and i am sure calzaghe used back injuries as well as hand injuries for his excuses so you were simply making excuses about hand injuries without even knowing anything about what the reasons were. clearly you are going to excuse calzaghe of anything.

hopkins is still a good fighter. but he is in his mid fourties. he beat pavlik due to styles as any slick fighter would. look what sergio martinez did to pavlik. calzaghe would have done something similar. im not saying hopkins is poor now, what i am saying is that he was much much better years ago and when he was, calzaghe gave him a substandard offer to fight in wales. he and warren could have agreed to hopkins demands to make the fight but calzaghe wasn't too pushed. why not give up the WBO garbage title and come to america at that time?

probably the funniest thing in your post is that roy wanted none of calzaghe when roy was in his prime when calzaghe is on record as saying he thoght prime roy would have beaten him! hmmm.. wonder why he never pushed for the fight then...

no doubt calzaghe was a great fighter.. but never fought another great fighter in their prime. his fans can only bring up the lacy fight (lol) and the kessler fight. and we know what andre ward did to kessler.

the sad thing is, joe might have done well if he had come to america and had the heart to prove himself. hed have falled short against the likes of roy and hopkins, but would get much more respect in america. now go to any american boxing forum and mention his name... you'll find that most of the fans agree that he never had the desire to fight the great fighters when they were in their primes.

Clearly you didn't read my post because you just rehash the same lies you did in your original post.
I should have stopped at the first line but unfortunately I read the whole post.

Notes.
Jones dismissed Calzaghe when he was in his prime, it was never going to happen. I didn't say that Jones ducked him, he just dismissed him as unimportant when in his prime.
I never said Lacy was good, but you say that Robin Reid who was destroyed by Lacy should have had a rematch with Joe. Makes no sense.
Mario Veit was a mandatory for Calzaghe, he had to fight him again or lose the belt, do you not understand that?
Hopkins agreed to fight Joe about 8 years ago, all parties had agreed to the fight and then Hopkins inexplicably wanted double the money for the fight.
Explain to me how you rate Glen Johson who lost to Sven Ottke, Syd Vanderpool, Silvio Branca and Omar Sheika before he moved up to light heavyweight and lost to Derrick Harmon and Daniel Judah and in total had 6 wins, 6 losses and 2 draws in his previous 14 fights at the time that he was supposed to meet Calzaghe. Johnson was a no name when he got the fight with Calzaghe, injuries prevented the fight from happeing.
Also Calzaghe's camp tried to get that fight in 2006 but Johnson turned him down because he got the RJJ fight.

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

I guess what I am saying is that vs. Benn I feel Joe would be at his most vulnerable. I would place my bets on Joe beating Collins, Eubank, Graham and Watson before I would bet on him defeating Benn. All to do with power, aggressiveness and style.

I would make Nigel the slight favorite here, 60-40 Benn

i understand that but i feel Calzaghe would have been too quick for Benn and eventually wore him down. If Benn did connect with a few power punches then i see Calzaghe being ko'd but i don't think that would have happened.

walshb

nacho libre wrote: »

i understand that but i feel Calzaghe would have been too quick for Benn and eventually wore him down. If Benn did connect with a few power punches then i see Calzaghe being ko'd but i don't think that would have happened.

But that is the thing, surely over 5 and 6 and 7 rds, the ultra aggressive Benn will land those shots? Joe was no Pernell Whitaker or James Toney. He has been hit and hurt several times by men not near as aggressive or dangerous as Benn. Put a Toney or Eubank chin on Joe and he whips Benn.

Joe's chin is a B to B +. It needs to be an A and above to withstand
Benn's shots.

paraguay99

eagle eye wrote: »

Clearly you didn't read my post because you just rehash the same lies you did in your original post.
I should have stopped at the first line but unfortunately I read the whole post.

Notes.
Jones dismissed Calzaghe when he was in his prime, it was never going to happen. I didn't say that Jones ducked him, he just dismissed him as unimportant when in his prime.
I never said Lacy was good, but you say that Robin Reid who was destroyed by Lacy should have had a rematch with Joe. Makes no sense.
Mario Veit was a mandatory for Calzaghe, he had to fight him again or lose the belt, do you not understand that?
Hopkins agreed to fight Joe about 8 years ago, all parties had agreed to the fight and then Hopkins inexplicably wanted double the money for the fight.
Explain to me how you rate Glen Johson who lost to Sven Ottke, Syd Vanderpool, Silvio Branca and Omar Sheika before he moved up to light heavyweight and lost to Derrick Harmon and Daniel Judah and in total had 6 wins, 6 losses and 2 draws in his previous 14 fights at the time that he was supposed to meet Calzaghe. Johnson was a no name when he got the fight with Calzaghe, injuries prevented the fight from happeing.
Also Calzaghe's camp tried to get that fight in 2006 but Johnson turned him down because he got the RJJ fight.

i read your post but i don't think you understand completely some of the points ive made. i am not being smart with you, i genuinely dont think you do.

first off, u say roy dismissed calzaghe. when and how? my point to you is that roy was TOP DOG and was there to be challenged. my point to you is that calzaghe has ADMITTED that prime roy jones would beat him. my point to you is to contrast calzaghes attitude with steve collins, (who calzaghe would have beat i agree) who was threatning to tresspass on roys property to get the fight. ultimately my point there is that calzaghe didn't push for the fight and again, my overall point is, THESE ARE THE FIGHTS HE SHOULD HAVE PUSHED FOR and this is what he is criticised for.

You say the rematch with reid doesnt make sense because reid lost to lacy. my point to you is that the reid lacy fight happened MANY YEARS after the calzaghe reid 1 fight. i am not talking about the rematch happening then, i am talking about it happening after the first fight, which reid was crying out for, as were boxing fans. im sure you understand this point.

again with the hopkins thing. i understand hopkins apparently agreed but then must have thought better about it and simply asked for more money to come to WALES and fight in calzaghe hometown with hometown reffing and hometown scoring (this is how hopkins would have thought). we know hopkins is not a KO artist so he probably knew it was going to be a long fight with a possibility of scorecards and a possible robbery so asked for more money which wasn't given. calzaghe never expressed desire to fight him again until he was in his mid 40s.

as for my point against veit, i genuinely think you misunderstand. veit was a handy fight for calzaghe, which he wanted a lot of. the reason he is criticised by many is for fighting the viet rematch among others INSTEAD OF GOING FOR THE BEST. why not dump the title and go for the best. even Hatton fought Floyd and Pac in their primes. Hatton fought his share of overmatched opponents but DID step up. calzaghe stepped up... when those opponets were mid 40s lol. you will now come back and say "viet was mandatory, you don't understand".

Glen johnson was messed around bigtime by calzaghe. he is a tough fighter, who is better than sakio bika who gave alzaghe problems. he did a better job on jones than calzaghe did. he is a genuine fighter who doesnt duck anybody and if you actually saw the ottke fight, he won that one and got robbed. he was a decent fighter, yes calzaghe would have been favourite but johnson was no mug and was respected by all fans at the time. his losses were genuinely close and disputed. at the time i gave him a decent shot against calzaghe due to his strength and determination, although he was outskilled and probably would have lost on points. and actually you should be more careful when checking boxrec for stats as he didn't lose to daniel judah, it was a disputed draw which he got robbed in. i saw the fight.

it all comes down to calzaghe sitting in his corner of the world and being "afraid to fly" so he cant fight the best. of course, he had no problems flying to denmark to fight a no hoper did he?

his best wins are lacy and kessler... do i even have to go on?

its a shoddy career and he will never get the respect that hopkins/jones/toney etc get because you will find few fans who believe he could have beaten them in their primes. he himself doesnt think he would have beaten jones (as eubank and benn both admitted themselves).

such a long career, and mikkel kessler is his best win. thats actually laughable. hell, andre ward might as well retire now and be called one of the best pound for pound fighters ever.

eagle eye

paraguay99 wrote: »

i read your post but i don't think you understand completely some of the points ive made. i am not being smart with you, i genuinely dont think you do.

first off, u say roy dismissed calzaghe. when and how? my point to you is that roy was TOP DOG and was there to be challenged. my point to you is that calzaghe has ADMITTED that prime roy jones would beat him. my point to you is to contrast calzaghes attitude with steve collins, (who calzaghe would have beat i agree) who was threatning to tresspass on roys property to get the fight. ultimately my point there is that calzaghe didn't push for the fight and again, my overall point is, THESE ARE THE FIGHTS HE SHOULD HAVE PUSHED FOR and this is what he is criticised for.

You say the rematch with reid doesnt make sense because reid lost to lacy. my point to you is that the reid lacy fight happened MANY YEARS after the calzaghe reid 1 fight. i am not talking about the rematch happening then, i am talking about it happening after the first fight, which reid was crying out for, as were boxing fans. im sure you understand this point.

again with the hopkins thing. i understand hopkins apparently agreed but then must have thought better about it and simply asked for more money to come to WALES and fight in calzaghe hometown with hometown reffing and hometown scoring (this is how hopkins would have thought). we know hopkins is not a KO artist so he probably knew it was going to be a long fight with a possibility of scorecards and a possible robbery so asked for more money which wasn't given. calzaghe never expressed desire to fight him again until he was in his mid 40s.

as for my point against veit, i genuinely think you misunderstand. veit was a handy fight for calzaghe, which he wanted a lot of. the reason he is criticised by many is for fighting the viet rematch among others INSTEAD OF GOING FOR THE BEST. why not dump the title and go for the best. even Hatton fought Floyd and Pac in their primes. Hatton fought his share of overmatched opponents but DID step up. calzaghe stepped up... when those opponets were mid 40s lol. you will now come back and say "viet was mandatory, you don't understand".

Glen johnson was messed around bigtime by calzaghe. he is a tough fighter, who is better than sakio bika who gave alzaghe problems. he did a better job on jones than calzaghe did. he is a genuine fighter who doesnt duck anybody and if you actually saw the ottke fight, he won that one and got robbed. he was a decent fighter, yes calzaghe would have been favourite but johnson was no mug and was respected by all fans at the time. his losses were genuinely close and disputed. at the time i gave him a decent shot against calzaghe due to his strength and determination, although he was outskilled and probably would have lost on points. and actually you should be more careful when checking boxrec for stats as he didn't lose to daniel judah, it was a disputed draw which he got robbed in. i saw the fight.

it all comes down to calzaghe sitting in his corner of the world and being "afraid to fly" so he cant fight the best. of course, he had no problems flying to denmark to fight a no hoper did he?

his best wins are lacy and kessler... do i even have to go on?

its a shoddy career and he will never get the respect that hopkins/jones/toney etc get because you will find few fans who believe he could have beaten them in their primes. he himself doesnt think he would have beaten jones (as eubank and benn both admitted themselves).

such a long career, and mikkel kessler is his best win. thats actually laughable. hell, andre ward might as well retire now and be called one of the best pound for pound fighters ever.

1. Collins never got a fight with Jones so all his calling him out and threatening to trespass was a waste of time. Jones just ignored him the same way he ignored Calzaghe.
2. You come up with a ridiculous defense of Bernard Hopkins doubling his money.
3. Calzaghe didn't want to fight Veit a second time, he was very annoyed that he had to fight him again.
4. Johnson was never anything but average at super-middle. He fared a lot better at light-heavy though.
5. Johnson turned down Calzaghe too.
6. Its ok for the yanks to stay at home but if a British fighter does it then its a problem. Nice to know how you think things through.
7. I don't understand why you feel the need to tell me that Reid was robbed in the Ottke fight when I already said that.
8. Who here has said that Calzaghe was better than RJJ? I certainly have not and I too believe that RJJ in his prime would have beaten Joe.

Your post now is just pure conjecture.

Calzaghe beat Eubanks, Reid, Sheika(who had beaten Johnson just before that fight), Mitchell, Veit, Kessler and Hopkins. I know he beat a shot fighter in RJJ but I won't add that to the list of top fighters that he beat.

Roy Jones though wouldn't even consider fighting him in his prime, Hopkins didn't want anything to do with him either so he doubled his price. Calzaghe ducked nobody, Reid lost his next fight after Calzaghe beat him and while it could have happened Calzaghe never fought anybody twice except for Veit and that was forced on him.

I don't mind you having an opinion but I just responded because your first two posts were full of untruths.

Gl now.

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

But that is the thing, surely over 5 and 6 and 7 rds, the ultra aggressive Benn will land those shots? Joe was no Pernell Whitaker or James Toney. He has been hit and hurt several times by men not near as aggressive or dangerous as Benn. Put a Toney or Eubank chin on Joe and he whips Benn.

Joe's chin is a B to B +. It needs to be an A and above to withstand
Benn's shots.

I am open to correction on this but i recall Calzaghe only being only dropped once in his prime?? I think you'd agree when he fought Hopkins and Jones he was a few years past his prime.

I agree if Benn did land a couple of clean shots in sucession he'd stop Calzaghe but i don't see that happening.
I think at his peak Calzaghe's workrate and speed would be too much for Benn. Benn would start like a freight train, but i think Calzaghe would weather the storm and he'd then start to make Benn look crude and cumbersome due to his superior movement and handspeed. Benn would get ever more desperate and ship a lot of punishment but Benn was teak tough so he'd probably go the 12 rounds to lose by UD

nacho libre

whaaames wrote: »

I’d have him winning 3 or 4 of the first 5 but I agree that his doggedness and aggression would eventually be his undoing, After Joe weathers the early storm he’d steady himself and his onslaught would chip away at Benn until he’d be back on track and would grind out a points win through effort. I’d have Joe winning by unanimous decision

Just my opinion...

well, if Benn were to dominate that many rounds then i think Calzaghe would definitely lose by ko early on. Calzaghe had a decent chin, but against Benn you'd need the granite of chin of Collins to withstand that kind of early domination.

walshb

Calzaghe was down in 2004 against Kabary Salem and down against Byron Mitchell, which was probably the fight you were referring to, nacho?

The Mitchell knock down was a solid one and Joe was hurt. He came back well.
The Salem shot was a peach, and I just do not think Salem is close to
Benn in terms of all around punching and most importantly, finishing ability.
Salem did **** all after the knock down. Benn would be tearing in attacking
a hurt Joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclzJW_FnME 1 min 50 secs in

I just think that Benn's style, aggression and power are the best of the mentioned fighters to do a number on Calzaghe. Peak or not, Calzaghe's chin is above average/quite good, and I feel that this just won't
cut it against Benn. Nor would it do against Gerald McClellan at 168 lbs.

Joe's chin is not Toney or Eubank or Hagler like. A good notch below. It is Joe's conditioning and recuperative traits that see him shake off shots; but, with Benn it may well be one and two and three rapid fire heavy shots.

whaaames

nacho libre wrote: »

but against Benn you'd need the granite of chin of Collins to withstand that kind of early domination.

fair comment

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

Calzaghe was down in 2004 against Kabary Salem and down against Byron Mitchell, which was probably the fight you were referring to, nacho?

The Mitchell knock down was a solid one and Joe was hurt. He came back well.
The Salem shot was a peach, and I just do not think Salem is close to
Benn in terms of all around punching and most importantly, finishing ability.
Salem did **** all after the knock down. Benn would be tearing in attacking
a hurt Joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclzJW_FnME 1 min 50 secs in

I just think that Benn's style, aggression and power are the best of the mentioned fighters to do a number on Calzaghe. Peak or not, Calzaghe's chin is above average/quite good, and I feel that this just won't
cut it against Benn. Nor would it do against Gerald McClellan at 168 lbs.

Joe's chin is not Toney or Eubank or Hagler like. A good notch below. It is Joe's conditioning and recuperative traits that see him shake off shots; but, with Benn it may well be one and two and three rapid fire heavy shots.

I agree If Benn had caught him with the shot Salem did then Calzaghe definitely wouldn't be getting back up. As it was he did very well to recover from that shot from Salem. Most super-middlweweight fighters would not have had.
it's just a question of if Benn would be able to land clean shots like that. i think if Calzaghe knew he was in with a banger like Benn he'd never be as careless as he was in that fight to leave his chin exposed like that.

angry_bob

eagle eye wrote: »

Calzaghe is the greatest British boxer of all time and possibly the best pound for pound ever from outside the Americas.

Nothing against Joe, as a matter of fact, I have the greatest respect for him, but the greatest British boxer of all time, don't make me laugh.
Randolph Turpin beat 'the great' Sugar Ray, and I don't mean Leonard, for the Middleweight title. That was when there was only 1 champ at each weight, not the 4 or 5 they have today.
Ken Buchanan travelled to Puerto Rico to beat Ismael Laguna for the Lightweight title, and Lloyd Honeyghan winning the welterweight title from Don Curry in Atlantic City, far superior to anything Joe has done.
These are just the ones that spring to mind as I'm sipping a few drinks on a Saturday evening, so lets put it in perspective.
Joe won a mickey mouse version of a World title when there were 4 or 5 to go for. He defended it successfully against everyone put in front of him, but he never had a career defining fight against a rated 'great' fighter.
Kudos Joe, but greatest British boxer, I don't think so.

Vintagekits

angry_bob wrote: »

Nothing against Joe, as a matter of fact, I have the greatest respect for him, but the greatest British boxer of all time, don't make me laugh.
Randolph Turpin beat 'the great' Sugar Ray, and I don't mean Leonard, for the Middleweight title. That was when there was only 1 champ at each weight, not the 4 or 5 they have today.
Ken Buchanan travelled to Puerto Rico to beat Ismael Laguna for the Lightweight title, and Lloyd Honeyghan winning the welterweight title from Don Curry in Atlantic City, far superior to anything Joe has done.
These are just the ones that spring to mind as I'm sipping a few drinks on a Saturday evening, so lets put it in perspective.
Joe won a mickey mouse version of a World title when there were 4 or 5 to go for. He defended it successfully against everyone put in front of him, but he never had a career defining fight against a rated 'great' fighter.
Kudos Joe, but greatest British boxer, I don't think so.

tur[in got lucky against Robinson when he was on a tour

I Drink It Up!

walshb wrote: »

Calzaghe was down in 2004 against Kabary Salem and down against Byron Mitchell, which was probably the fight you were referring to, nacho?

The Mitchell knock down was a solid one and Joe was hurt. He came back well.
The Salem shot was a peach, and I just do not think Salem is close to
Benn in terms of all around punching and most importantly, finishing ability.
Salem did **** all after the knock down. Benn would be tearing in attacking
a hurt Joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclzJW_FnME 1 min 50 secs in

I just think that Benn's style, aggression and power are the best of the mentioned fighters to do a number on Calzaghe. Peak or not, Calzaghe's chin is above average/quite good, and I feel that this just won't
cut it against Benn. Nor would it do against Gerald McClellan at 168 lbs.

Joe's chin is not Toney or Eubank or Hagler like. A good notch below. It is Joe's conditioning and recuperative traits that see him shake off shots; but, with Benn it may well be one and two and three rapid fire heavy shots.

Anyone who thinks that Nigel Benn can take Joe Calzaghe needs their head examined.