Eircom enacts three strikes rule

Sheeps · 26-05-2010 01:28AM

Mark200 wrote: »

Eh, as explained in the article in the first post of this topic.. Eircom will tell the Music industry how many IP addresses it will process a week. During the trial period, they will process 50. So therefore there is going to be a cap on the amount they will process, so the Music industry can't just supply an endless list of IP addresses which Eircom must process.

There's no reason eircom won't increase that number over time. They've caved to the record companies before and they'll do it again.

I'm pretty glad I'm not an eircom customer.

flag123 · 26-05-2010 01:35AM

Serious losses for Eircom then.
Not that I care, I'm on another company.

jimi_t2 · 26-05-2010 01:36AM

Sheeps wrote: »

Eh, the whole reason this three strikes rule is retarded is because of the sheer volume of autonomous take down notices that are served to ISP's on a daily basis. They don't have the resources to investigate each claim so they just comply with the complaint regardless.

And this is the case in Ireland?

Only ONE body will be recognised by Eircom in this matter, and thats the crowd who had the capacity to sue them into bankruptcy - IRMA.

So yeah, thats not ''sheer volume of autonomy''. Thats 50 a week. Slowly I'd say as well given Eircoms complete incompetence in every area.

50 a week /750,0000 users = Well... draw your own conclusions.

Also, the Irish and/or European courts will intervene with ISP's assuming this policy as soon as they recognise the right to internet access as a basic human right just like they do in a number of different European countries.

And if me aunty was me uncle she'd have a bollacks. Internet access is not a basic human right in Irish law and this is unlikely to change in the near future.

I can only identify 4 countries in the world where internet has been ruled ''human right''. Estonia, France, Finland and Greece.

In France at least, the three strikes thing is law so it doesn't make an arse of difference. Greece is practically in a civil war so they don't give a ****. Estonia is an incredibly developed country digitally, as is Finland.

So yeah, tbh unless you've some further evidence or proposals to pull out the bag I'd say that point is well moot.

Peanut · 26-05-2010 02:43AM

For the posters who are not bothered because they're not with Eircom, this might be of interest,

Justice Peter Charleston ruling on the IRMA case -

“Since it was likely to be deeply unfair that only Eircom with about 40% of the market share, as the defendant in these proceedings, should bear the burden of this settlement, thus activating the winds of market forces to drive customers towards Eircom’s competitors, the plaintiffs agreed to initiate similar proceedings against other internet service providers in the State,” reads the ruling. “This, I understand, has been done.”

IRMA’s case against the rest of Ireland’s ISPs is scheduled for June 10th.

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/88684/irish-judge-voluntary-3-strikes-is-legal/

edit: missed this in the recently linked BBC article

Irma plans to take other Irish ISPs to court. UPC, the country's second largest ISP will be in court on 17 June and two smaller ISPs will receive summons later this week.

jimi_t2 · 26-05-2010 03:11AM

I don't think anyone is remotely surprised that that was the case.

All this talk about UPC fighting the good fight? Highly unlikely

Someone will come on now and say ''Oh noes! But UPC is all over Europe. They won't!''

My reply? Who the f*ck cares about an extrajudicial arrangement in a country of a little over 4 million? No sort of legal precedent will be set and the EU has bigger, less morally grey things on its plate. The damage is already done with the IP not constituting privileged information ruling.

BingoMingo · 26-05-2010 04:21AM

tiocimarla wrote: »

If we let them do it to eircom then they will think we will take it lying down. I reckon if this becomes common place through all our isps we march the dail. I for one am sick of being shat on and told what i cant do by greedy big wigs. If this starts a trait then the next thread will read who is gonna march the dail with me. In fact we should do it anyway,,, Whos with me:D

I will march on the Dail because a child who didn't know what broadband is was murdered whilst he was supposed to be in our care !!!

Let's get our priorities right.

Killer Pigeon · 26-05-2010 04:50AM

What about porn? What will becum of my life without it?

Jev/N · 26-05-2010 04:53AM

It's all gonna fall apart sooner rather than later...the settlement, that is.

pretentiouslad · 26-05-2010 08:11AM

I've read the whole thread, I've seen the exchanges between Amhran Nua, TBH and Marc200...

At this point i'd like to commend the latter two for the amount of patience they've shown in dealing with Amhran Nua, a guy who clearly can't differentiate between Law and company policy no matter how many different ways it's put to him...

I'll only post on this thread once so don't expect a reply, not because I can't engage in debate or defend my opinions, but because I have exams and a life. Amhran Nua, you have shown extreme stubborness, there's nothing wrong with being wrong, let it go...

I'll try and explain it one time as clearly as
i can:

Eircom have put in place a 3 strike system where illegal downloading or uploading won't be tolerated... criticism of this is, in reality, a criticism of upholding the law... 3 strikes for illegal activity is quite generous... when you share files you're breaking copyright laws, a judge deemed that if eircom is aware of people doing this on "their watch" that eircom would have to do something to stop it, same way as if a barman saw 14 year olds drinking in a pub he'd be required to throw them out or at least not serve them anymore... not getting the gaurds involved just simply refusing a service because the people are clearly breaking the law... you may poke holes in the analogy, but in fairness, just because the offences occur in cyberspace does not mean that they aren't "real" crimes... there is no point in complaining here really...

Also, Marc200 and TBH explained it to you quite well repeatedly and you're responses were repetitive and a failure to grasp the basics of the topic was clear on your behalf...

Amhran Nua means new song, but you've been singing the same song for your 42 posts :rolleyes:

I'm an objective observer, you're being a tool, how insecure do you have to be to not allow people to poke holes in your logic??? :pac:

johanz · 26-05-2010 01:29PM

Smart person won't get caught anyway.

tiocimarla · 26-05-2010 01:37PM

pretentiouslad wrote: »

I've read the whole thread, I've seen the exchanges between Amhran Nua, TBH and Marc200...

At this point i'd like to commend the latter two for the amount of patience they've shown in dealing with Amhran Nua, a guy who clearly can't differentiate between Law and company policy no matter how many different ways it's put to him...

I'll only post on this thread once so don't expect a reply, not because I can't engage in debate or defend my opinions, but because I have exams and a life. Amhran Nua, you have shown extreme stubborness, there's nothing wrong with being wrong, let it go...

I'll try and explain it one time as clearly as
i can:

Eircom have put in place a 3 strike system where illegal downloading or uploading won't be tolerated... criticism of this is, in reality, a criticism of upholding the law... 3 strikes for illegal activity is quite generous... when you share files you're breaking copyright laws, a judge deemed that if eircom is aware of people doing this on "their watch" that eircom would have to do something to stop it, same way as if a barman saw 14 year olds drinking in a pub he'd be required to throw them out or at least not serve them anymore... not getting the gaurds involved just simply refusing a service because the people are clearly breaking the law... you may poke holes in the analogy, but in fairness, just because the offences occur in cyberspace does not mean that they aren't "real" crimes... there is no point in complaining here really...

Also, Marc200 and TBH explained it to you quite well repeatedly and you're responses were repetitive and a failure to grasp the basics of the topic was clear on your behalf...

Amhran Nua means new song, but you've been singing the same song for your 42 posts :rolleyes:

I'm an objective observer, you're being a tool, how insecure do you have to be to not allow people to poke holes in your logic??? :pac:

Well im not getting wrapped up in this thread again coz Il admit I Some people here obviously no more about
1. Telecoms Package.
2. EU parliments views and stand on this.
3. (American) 3rd parties right to monitor Eircoms customers(even if it is only fifty and I no its they arent planting bugs around your house before ye start being smart)

My view on this is simple even if your not pirating stuff, If eircom want to view your Internet time so be it. I dont believe that American lawyers constitute a right to bully another country into observing their internet usage and being the judge and jury as to who is breaking the law or not.

I think where everyone is getting crossed wires is, the Law V Policy thing.
Its two different oppinions and everyone seems to be adopting one or the other(anyone with a valuble oppinion that is)

Yes it is and Eircom company policy BUT it has been bullied into a corner with the threat of sueing which is fair enough. Therefore some people believe Eircom have no choice. Everyone has a choice and each choice has its consiquences.

Now the third party and Law thing. The other side is saying that this group that will provide IPs to Eircom is being a law onto themselves. They choose WHO BREAKING THE LAW. Now it is in my strong view that the only body that can choose who breaks the law or not Is

1. A judge
2. A jury

Now people can have different views piracy bla bla. But at the end of the day this group IS bypassing the judicial system.

If Eircom sends you a letter stating Strike 1. You have broken copyrite laws through Illegal Downloading/Uploading. Then this leads to the question of who has found you guilty of BREAKING THE LAW! Hmmm must be some sort of legislation in place here and i have been caught by legal means. Nope its simply a shower of lawyers from the states that are now enforcing the law. Is it just me or is that the gaurds job.

And for those who are gonna start about policies again, Is it eircoms place to listen to a judge or a third party who has juditial rights in Ireland?

Now like I say I can sit here all day (but I wont) and bring up different Views and oppinions about this subject but i think it is to vast.

So Im gonna Ask the OP to put a poll up asking Do you think that the 3 strick rule is

1. A good direction for the future of the internet?
2. A bad direction for the future of the internet?

Im sure ye could word it better and even have a few more points but im curious of from the people fighting handbags on both sides. Who believes it is a good idea?

I think that a lot of people saying that it has to happen dont really think it should. Again Irish people love to talk about stuff, complain about stuff and voice their oppinions about stuff, but they never do jacks*** about it. I to am guilty of this to a certain extent. We let our government walk all over us and now were letting foreigners have a go. Im gonna get a tatoo on my forehead saying, walk on me im Irish.

Now you vultures, poke away. At my uneducated stupid oppinion.:p

Jumpy · 26-05-2010 01:38PM

johanz wrote: »

Smart person won't get caught anyway.

Nope because Smart isnt doing the three strikes thingy.

johanz · 26-05-2010 02:01PM

Jumpy wrote: »

Nope because Smart isnt doing the three strikes thingy.

I saw what you did there :pac:

Tar.Aldarion · 26-05-2010 02:15PM

wot ded he doo

johanz · 26-05-2010 02:24PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

wot ded he doo

I meant smart people as in intelligent people, and then he named smart as ISP.

flag123 · 26-05-2010 02:58PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

What about porn? What will becum of my life without it?

hehe

johanz · 26-05-2010 03:17PM

Porn doesn't have any groups like RIAA or such protecting it, so fap away.

pretentiouslad · 26-05-2010 03:32PM

tiocimarla wrote: »

Well im not getting wrapped up in this thread again coz Il admit I Some people here obviously no more about
1. Telecoms Package.
2. EU parliments views and stand on this.
3. (American) 3rd parties right to monitor Eircoms customers(even if it is only fifty and I no its they arent planting bugs around your house before ye start being smart)

My view on this is simple even if your not pirating stuff, If eircom want to view your Internet time so be it. I dont believe that American lawyers constitute a right to bully another country into observing their internet usage and being the judge and jury as to who is breaking the law or not.

I think where everyone is getting crossed wires is, the Law V Policy thing.
Its two different oppinions and everyone seems to be adopting one or the other(anyone with a valuble oppinion that is)

Yes it is and Eircom company policy BUT it has been bullied into a corner with the threat of sueing which is fair enough. Therefore some people believe Eircom have no choice. Everyone has a choice and each choice has its consiquences.

Now the third party and Law thing. The other side is saying that this group that will provide IPs to Eircom is being a law onto themselves. They choose WHO BREAKING THE LAW. Now it is in my strong view that the only body that can choose who breaks the law or not Is

1. A judge
2. A jury

Now people can have different views piracy bla bla. But at the end of the day this group IS bypassing the judicial system.

If Eircom sends you a letter stating Strike 1. You have broken copyrite laws through Illegal Downloading/Uploading. Then this leads to the question of who has found you guilty of BREAKING THE LAW! Hmmm must be some sort of legislation in place here and i have been caught by legal means. Nope its simply a shower of lawyers from the states that are now enforcing the law. Is it just me or is that the gaurds job.

And for those who are gonna start about policies again, Is it eircoms place to listen to a judge or a third party who has juditial rights in Ireland?

Now like I say I can sit here all day (but I wont) and bring up different Views and oppinions about this subject but i think it is to vast.

So Im gonna Ask the OP to put a poll up asking Do you think that the 3 strick rule is

1. A good direction for the future of the internet?
2. A bad direction for the future of the internet?

Im sure ye could word it better and even have a few more points but im curious of from the people fighting handbags on both sides. Who believes it is a good idea?

I think that a lot of people saying that it has to happen dont really think it should. Again Irish people love to talk about stuff, complain about stuff and voice their oppinions about stuff, but they never do jacks*** about it. I to am guilty of this to a certain extent. We let our government walk all over us and now were letting foreigners have a go. Im gonna get a tatoo on my forehead saying, walk on me im Irish.

Now you vultures, poke away. At my uneducated stupid oppinion.:p

In fairness to you, you explained your opinion quite well there...

basically it's company policy being influenced by a third party that isn't the Irish legal system, which is wrong :rolleyes: But, I know nobody will want to defend the Music Industry here, but if the songs being downloaded are property of the Music Industry, surely each time one is downloaded illegally theft has just occurred... and the Music Industry is trying to elliminate theft of it's product by asking Eircom to assist it... Eircom could have stood strong and probably should have, but the Music Industry would claim that since Eircom knowlingly allows it's users to download music illegally that it it has a moral obligation to uphold the laws of the country... and Eircom didn't want to be brought to the courts over it...

I know it's verging on cencorship of what you can and can't view etc, but I'm not entirely against it because it's not too extreme... Basically this is one way of clamping down on illegal downloading, which means people can't indulge on music other people have spent time writing and promoting... If you like an artists song, let them know by paying them to buy it, it's not that complicated...

jimi_t2 · 26-05-2010 03:35PM

Now you vultures, poke away. At my uneducated stupid oppinion.:p

Well...

tiocimarla wrote: »

3. (American) 3rd parties right to monitor Eircoms customers(even if it is only fifty and I no its they arent planting bugs around your house before ye start being smart)

Open up mTorrent. Join a torrent. Open up ''Connections''. Count the Irish flags.

Any of us can do it - only difference is they can mine the IP addresses as a company without running afoul of the data protection act thanks to the ruling.

I dont believe that American lawyers constitute a right to bully another country into observing their internet usage...

Preaching to the choir brother!

I think where everyone is getting crossed wires is, the Law V Policy thing.
Its two different oppinions...

No its not. Its a bunch of people who understand what has happened, and a bunch of people who refuse to back down when proven wrong. Its really very black and white.

Eircom ALWAYS had a clause in their contract that they'd disconnect you for infringing/accessing copyright material. Its just now that they're being forced to honour it.

Yes it is and Eircom company policy BUT it has been bullied into a corner with the threat of sueing which is fair enough. Therefore some people believe Eircom have no choice.

They rolled over when the RIAA agreed that they'd go after Eircom's competitors immediately afterward.

Everyone has a choice and each choice has its consiquences.

Now the third party and Law thing. The other side is saying that this group that will provide IPs to Eircom is being a law onto themselves. They choose WHO BREAKING THE LAW.

Seriously. If you have no idea about what encompasses the Irish legal system and legislature then STOP MAKING DEFINITIVE SWEEPING STATEMENTS IN CAPITAL LETTERS.

Now it is in my strong view that the only body that can choose who breaks the law or not...

Good for you. And a strong view at that!

However, the uneducated layman is not the policy-maker or judicator in this state, thank F*CK!!!!

Now people can have different views piracy bla bla. But at the end of the day this group IS bypassing the judicial system.

Ehm, as the judicial system inherently allows them to do

If Eircom sends you a letter stating Strike 1. You have broken copyrite laws through Illegal Downloading/Uploading. Then this leads to the question of who has found you guilty of BREAKING THE LAW!

F*CKING HELL....

ONE LAST TIME

This is not Law. What they are doing is not breaking the law, either before or after the RIAA got involved.

As part of their COMPANY POLICY, they decided when they started off to include a clause saying that if you accessed copyright material, they'd cut you off. They're perfectly entitled to do so under Irish law dating back quite some bloody time.

They now have a VOLUNTARY EXTRA-JUDICIAL AGREEMENT with IRMA, after the DPC lost its case in the highcourt saying IPs were priviliged information. This was their own decision, and they could well have appealed it in court like UPS are apparently doing, but they chose not to because they're a bunch of c*nts at the end of the day.

BT have been doing it for ages off their own bat, as do plenty of other ISPs. I know a few people who got the phone call basically saying ''Cop on''.

Jev/N · 26-05-2010 04:26PM

Right, first the facts...

1. The settlement only covers P2P services, it does not cover hosting services such as Rapidshare or music blogs

2. Those who are cut-off (if ever) can just move to another provider, as long as all the ISP's never agree to such a settlement; they're not going to be brought to court and they're not going to be sued. Irma have already said this approach had been very costly and not netting anywhere near the amount they sought.

3. Those who are still with Eircom can just find a way around it, people always have, and will.

4. The EU Bill might have been circumvented by the exceptions contained in the protocol (settlement) relating to medical use, employment etc.. Mr Justice Charlton pointed this out but remained cautious, having not seen an instrument making this effective in Irish law.

Now for the opinion:

This approach is another step in the wrong direction for the music industry and more so, the rightsholders. It's the same attitude as was behind DRM sales, or single label online stores, not giving the customers what they want (within reason, of course) It can't and won't stop people as they will either find a way around the current restrictions and safeguards or they will just move provider.

Eircom and Irma are both relying heavily on other ISPs following suit for this settlement to operate smoothly and, if this fails to happen, the whole thing will just blow up in their faces. More than likely I can see this being abandoned at some future point owing to customers shopping around prior to, or following, disconnection.

As Danny O'Brien exclaimed in an Irish Times article; “Hear that enormous smacking sound? That noise is 100,000 Irish geeks slapping their heads in frustration at another music industry own goal.”

edit: One last thing is why? I would think that the reason Eircom took this route is twofold - avoidance of a protracted 4 week High Court case which could have resulted in them losing and paying costs (although some say that they appeared to have the upper hand all the way through); secondly, if they had lost they might have either been ordered to implement filtering applications (which they feared would damage their services as opposed to achieving the objectives) but more so, that they might be held liable as secondary infringers...
None of these things, however, would lead me to believe that the settlement in the action was actually worthwhile and in their best interests. Particularly due to it's reliance on the other ISPs following suit, something which they have little control over and their competitors see as an open business opportunity.

Oracle · 26-05-2010 05:10PM

It's a joke, Eircom and the authorities energies would be better used improving the broadband capacity and coverage in Ireland, rather than persecuting broadband users. It's not as if we all have Korean style 100mbps connections, and are guzzling 15Gb HD DVD torrents every minute.

evolutionqy7 · 26-05-2010 05:16PM

on this day and age im happy im with UPC

EDIT: Oh and unlimited downloads/uploads

oceanclub · 26-05-2010 05:16PM

Oracle wrote: »

It's a joke, Eircom and the authorities energies would be better used improving the broadband capacity and coverage in Ireland, rather than persecuting broadband users. It's not as if we all have Korean style 100mbps connections, and are guzzling 15Gb HD DVD torrents every minute.

Look at this graph:

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/4599/oecdbroadbandspeeds2009.jpg

Secondest slowest speed in the OECD (thank you, Mexico, for saving us from the bottom) and the big international news about Ireland and the 'net is this.

Sure, that's the knowledge economy.

P.

tiocimarla · 26-05-2010 05:39PM

jimi_t2 wrote: »

ONE LAST TIME

This is not Law. What they are doing is not breaking the law, either before or after the RIAA got involved.

As part of their COMPANY POLICY, they decided when they started off to include a clause saying that if you accessed copyright material, they'd cut you off. They're perfectly entitled to do so under Irish law dating back quite some bloody time.

.

Yes I do understand this is not law. And I understand the company policy of accessing copyrighted material.

So why do the third party still get to rule in their view so to speak who has been accessing copyrighted material. Which is Illegal and against the law thus breaking the law.

If Americans were downloading Irish music and we wanted to tell theyre largest ISP to cut people we wanted cut, what do you think they would say? Thats right, Fnck off!

Listen im not getting into an war of words with ye but if ye listened and respected other peoples views rather than being an arrogant pr1ck then ye might get somewhere.

You should apply for a politicians job because they prefere having a go at each other rather than trying to understand each other too;)

Now onto a thread that people act like people not fact slinging idiots.

Views are not always fact sometimes theyre just views:D

johanz · 26-05-2010 06:03PM

They can't stop the distributors. Torrent trackers mostly, so they go for the consumer. Simple as that.

Jev/N · 26-05-2010 07:07PM

johanz wrote: »

They can't stop the distributors. Torrent trackers mostly, so they go for the consumer. Simple as that.

No, they can't stop the consumer (not directly), so they're going for the ISP..

jimi_t2 · 26-05-2010 07:08PM

tiocimarla wrote: »

Yes I do understand this is not law. And I understand the company policy of accessing copyrighted material.

So why do the third party still get to rule in their view so to speak who has been accessing copyrighted material.

They didn't get to rule anything whatsoever as they're not a court. Eircom decided it was in their best interest to comply, and I'm guessing vet the IPs submitted to them; part of the reason that they're processing so few a week. This has nothing to do with a court whatsoever, this is a private agreement between IRMA and Eircom.

Which is Illegal and against the law thus breaking the law.

No, no and no.

I'd ask for the relevant statute so as to prove how indefensible your position is, but there isn't one and you're probably going to be banned anyway.

If Americans were downloading Irish music...

Irish music? The country of Ireland does not hold the rights of the Intellectual property of its citizens.

The vast majority of it is on, you guessed it, American record labels.

Listen im not getting into an war of words with ye but if ye listened and respected other peoples views rather than being an arrogant pr1ck then ye might get somewhere.

You should apply for a politicians job because they prefere having a go at each other rather than trying to understand each other too;)

Now onto a thread that people act like people not fact slinging idiots.

Views are not always fact sometimes theyre just views:D

Do you even read what you say before you post it?

It's hilarious how many people resort to personal abuse when their arguments are shown to have absolutely no basis in fact. As the old saying goes, Opinions are like...

tiocimarla · 26-05-2010 07:29PM

ok copywrite isnt illegal so. Lets all take everything out of context so. Thats all you have shown in this thread

jimi_t2 · 26-05-2010 07:33PM

tiocimarla wrote: »

ok copywrite isnt illegal so. Lets all take everything out of context so.

That doesn't even make sense.

And its copyright.

johanz · 26-05-2010 07:36PM

Copyrights suck, fight the powa, row row

Eircom enacts three strikes rule

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