DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

scath · 30-04-2010 04:25PM

watty wrote: »

Source?

Well...

Either it will launch and go bust or it will not launch.

Will it be 1 week (should be) or 1 year to decide if taking Contract?

Have you any official link?

Confirmed by BAI to elmo that license offered to Easy TV.

Elmo · 30-04-2010 04:46PM

Yeah they have confirmed that the licence is being offered to Easy TV.

However until it is officially stated via press release. Shhh. :rolleyes:

Eamon Ryan was going to be talking about something on The Last Word but I am not sure if that was in relation to DTT or FTA Sporting Events.

Gerry Ryan's sudden death obviously took precedence on the show. RIP.

Elmo · 30-04-2010 04:53PM

The Cush wrote: »

BTW anyone notice the old BCI website has gone offline since this morning. Possibly gone for good.

DTT details are still available

http://www.bci.ie/DTT/index.html

scath · 30-04-2010 05:13PM

Elmo wrote: »

DTT details are still available

http://www.bci.ie/DTT/index.html

RIP Gerry Ryan. Great broadcaster. Thought he would have been better suited to Radio 1, to invigorate it. That link now also taken down..

Elmo · 30-04-2010 05:19PM

scath wrote: »

That link now also taken down..

Must be in the computer's Cashe. The BCI website was a great reference, unlikely that they will put the information on the BAI website.

scath · 30-04-2010 05:56PM

indeed.took down the main doc assoc with easy TV only last night.. have the others, or should have on my usb drive. Can we rename the thread then now we know? I don't know how to do..

carrolls · 30-04-2010 06:41PM

scath wrote: »

indeed.took down the main doc assoc with easy TV only last night.. have the others, or should have on my usb drive. Can we rename the thread then now we know? I don't know how to do..

Just reading the PDF, I think these channels for €8.16 a month is poor value for money. The thing is people expect these channels for free.

BBC One
• BBC Two
• BBC Three
• BBC Four
• Channel 4
• TV3 ABC1 (This is the working title for a new channel from TV3, which will deliver a
compelling Irish and international schedule of bespoke news and current affairs, as
well as drama, comedy and documentaries).
• Channel 6
• City Channel (Time Share “TS”)
• Extreme Sports (TS)

watty · 30-04-2010 08:01PM

See http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gZ5ppAgtaHkJ:www.bci.ie/DTT/index.html+http://www.bci.ie/DTT/index.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

Also try the Internet Archive AKA Wayback Machine

Sam Russell · 30-04-2010 09:14PM

carrolls wrote: »

Just reading the PDF, I think these channels for €8.16 a month is poor value for money. The thing is people expect these channels for free.

BBC One
• BBC Two
• BBC Three
• BBC Four
• Channel 4
• TV3 ABC1 (This is the working title for a new channel from TV3, which will deliver a
compelling Irish and international schedule of bespoke news and current affairs, as
well as drama, comedy and documentaries).
• Channel 6
• City Channel (Time Share “TS”)
• Extreme Sports (TS)

Aren't all those free to air at the moment on Freesat?

Why would anyone pay for them?

Bob_Harris · 30-04-2010 09:18PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why would anyone pay for them?

Ignorance.

Mark27 · 30-04-2010 10:26PM

This already appears to be a rip off. Charging 99e for 6 months (possibly rising after 6 month intro period) for 22 channels that are already free anyway. And whats the bets they end up sticking in Virgin1 instead of Sky1?

Is there any differance between EasyTV and Sky Conway?

Sam Russell · 01-05-2010 08:20AM

I cannot wait for 'TV3 ABC1', a new channel from TV3. TV3 are already overXPOSED as it is. Presumably it will feature gushing young ladies standing on small tables reading a teleprompt (well stumbling over a teleprompt) telling how Z list celebs lives are falling apart, and how effective product placement is for them, and endless phone in quizes asking stupid questions for silly prizes. It will also give plenty of opportunities for transition kids to learn how quickly they can zoom in and out while jumping/changing the focus and at the same time swinging the camera from the subject's feet to their head and back. As we all know, this style of camera action adds interest to a poor and pointless video sequence. It will of course be broadcast on narrowband, 4:3, with low resolution.

Gawd help us.

Elmo · 01-05-2010 10:29AM

carrolls wrote: »

The thing is people expect these channels for free.

And as I said before UPC, TV3 and RTÉ pay an estimated 10million for such services: -

"We pay a lot of money for BBC etc, and if any state body wants to then give it away for free, that’s a massive concern for us,” says UPC’s Ireland strategy director Ray Collins.

UPC’s main competitor Sky is of a similar view, though it is cheering from the sidelines rather than pursuing its own actions, and the folks over at TV3 are none to pleased either.

“We spend a lot of money on Irish rights,” says head of operations Peter Ennis. “If they want to make the likes of UTV free-toair, so be it, but they should have to blank out the rights for things like Coronation Street or Eastenders or sporting games.

TV3 ABC1 was noted as 3Xpose in the OneVision Application, I assume that this is now 3e.

01-05-2010 12:41PM

We pay a lot of money for BBC etc, and if any state body wants to then give it away for free, that’s a massive concern for us,” says UPC’s Ireland strategy director Ray Collins.

UPC’s main competitor Sky is of a similar view, though it is cheering from the sidelines rather than pursuing its own actions, and the folks over at TV3 are none to pleased either.

“We spend a lot of money on Irish rights,” says head of operations Peter Ennis. “If they want to make the likes of UTV free-toair, so be it, but they should have to blank out the rights for things like Coronation Street or Eastenders or sporting games.

What planet does Mr Ennis live on?

Who is listening to him?

All those channels are free on satelite.

After 2012,they'll be free on an aerial via norn iron probably as far south as Dublin and over huge swathes of Leinster,connaught and all of ulster.
They're already free on an aerial in most of wicklow and wexford thanks to the welsh high power transmitters.

This is a joke and a huge [unexamined as yet politically] waste of money by the BAI quango and RTE.

The Cush · 01-05-2010 06:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What planet does Mr Ennis live on?

Who is listening to him?

All those channels are free on satelite.

That article is from Jan 2008, freesat hadn't launched at that time.

carrolls · 01-05-2010 06:40PM

Elmo wrote: »

And as I said before UPC, TV3 and RTÉ pay an estimated 10million for such services: -.

Elmo, you can say it as many times as you like.:rolleyes:
The bottom line is people expect BBC, ITV and Channel 4 for free.

scath · 01-05-2010 07:23PM

carrolls wrote: »

Elmo, you can say it as many times as you like.:rolleyes:
The bottom line is people expect BBC, ITV and Channel 4 for free.

There are two things at play here. The viewer point of view and the broadcasting business point of view.

From the viewer point of view, they can get the viewing for free after the one-off cost of installing and buying the equipment to view. They get it for free one way so why should they have to pay for it on another method of broadcasting yea.

From the broadcasting business point of view, we get it for free by accident as such because its technically difficult to restrict us from getting it for free, and possibly wouldn't justify the cost of restriction. The other factor is that unlike other EU states with similar situations, we speak a common language.

UPC and Sky have to pay to carry those on their platforms thus charge the viewer. But satellite and terrestrial to an extent have spillover.

So the question then is how do we get around the problem. One option is the license fee, a block payment out of it to make it available for free on ROI terrestrial and satellite and cable.

The other is for people to buy combo boxes to take advantage of the technical difficulties.

That's the reality. How do you ask businesses that see the ROI as a foreign market to give something for free and say no to revenue that will find helpful to them at this time that they are getting. The BBC could be instructed to not charge by the UK Gov but we now don't know if they would be prepared to do that. Maybe, maybe not. We don't know if the u-turn was an accident in the first place as stated or if it was due to BBC complaints or Sky & UPC or both lobbying.

The ITV and others however are different one doesn't know whether they would or wouldn't. DTT provides them a chance to be free-to-air if they want to and have Irish ads and the few Irish programmes.

So how do we solve this? But those seem the reasons from an outsider as to why it is the issue it is. Mr. Ennis was just giving perspective in my view from the Irish broadcaster point of view. That's just one part of the jigsaw not it all so I wouldn't be to hard on him on that. What do you do in that situation only bat for your employer?

01-05-2010 08:38PM

The Cush wrote: »

That article is from Jan 2008, freesat hadn't launched at that time.

Uhm I was under the impression that it was a commentary on the memorandum of understanding in 2010.
It certainly reads like that.

Regardless,the BBC's and ITV were also free on satelite in january 2008.

watty · 01-05-2010 08:53PM

However the Royalty is maybe 1/10th or less of the total broadcast costs... Distribution, maintenance, electricity to run all the transmitters.

Remember every 5% past 80% of GEOGRAPHIC coverage is LOT more masts.

The Initial test DTT sites are covering people also well covered by cable, The last 10% of DTT coverage is also people that NEVER will have cable, but mostly can easily have a dish.

Some people can't easily have a dish, but most of those are in cable areas.

I am not interested in paying a lot extra on my TV licence so that maybe 5% of people can get BBC on DTT who can't have a dish.

Sam Russell · 01-05-2010 10:01PM

When the memorandon of understanding was signed, it was understood to be a recipricol agreement that would give FTA coverage of RTE and BBC over the whole island. This was signed by both sovereign governments, and presumably with consent of both the BBC and of RTE. The change took several days to emerge, suggesting lobbying.

It would cost nothing for the FTA broadcasting over the whole island. Carriage costs are zero since they are populating existing muxes, except for revenue forgone. So who is interested in stopping it?

A second point, the STB etc specification calls for HD capability, so why not launch with HD on RTE1 and RTE2 from the start? That would give DTT a unique selling point, and save the future switchover problems later. All that is needed is a good upconverter for material that is not already in HD. Well two actually, one for each channel.

We have six muxes to fill in 2013, 2 public and four commercial. Hopefully we can keep clear of shopping and slapper channels.

carrolls · 02-05-2010 03:09AM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Hopefully we can keep clear of shopping and slapper channels.

One thing is certain. Ryan and the BAI will do the opposite to what is in the public interest. Thats why both DAB and DTT are on their last legs in this country.

channelsurfer2 · 02-05-2010 06:55PM

http://www.thepost.ie/news/ireland/digital-television-negotiations-reach-crisis-point-48985.html

And its over to Easy TV....... Where things will be far from easy..... not a hope of it launching ever in my opinion.... top up tv in the uk is what easy tv's model is a hybrid off... a la carte..

watty · 02-05-2010 07:17PM

Actually a very poor baised article
http://www.techtir.ie/node/1003485#comment-1004179

OneVision had no viable commerical model and refused to put up a bond equivalent to a years running cost and less than RTENL's initial costs.

How would it have looked if Onevision went bust and RTENL was €30M to €100M out of pocket?

02-05-2010 07:35PM

I have to repeat that it was negligence in the extreme for RTE to shell out €70 million when €25 million would have been enough.

They bought and installed transmitters for an economic model that was doomed to failure.

Thats very bad management and shows how out of touch they are in terms of running a business.

Andy454 · 02-05-2010 11:16PM

Perhaps the Minister for Communications could step in and level the playing field a little for DTT.

He could offer "free" set top boxes through a TV License fee hike of 250euros/year.

He could also levy all sky and upc customers subscribtions by 20% meanwhile operating DTT at the competitors basic pack price less 9%?

Maybe even scrap selling subscribtions to DTT and just make a mandatory 100euro/month electromagnetic wave reception tax and enforce a ban on all satellite dishes like in iraq.

That would be a surefire way of making sure DTT got off the ground.

carrolls · 03-05-2010 01:19AM

Andy454 wrote: »

Perhaps the Minister for Communications could step in and level the playing field a little for DTT.

He could offer "free" set top boxes through a TV License fee hike of 250euros/year.

He could also levy all sky and upc customers subscribtions by 20% meanwhile operating DTT at the competitors basic pack price less 9%?

Maybe even scrap selling subscribtions to DTT and just make a mandatory 100euro/month electromagnetic wave reception tax and enforce a ban on all satellite dishes like in iraq.

That would be a surefire way of making sure DTT got off the ground.

That would go down very well in a democratic country. :rolleyes:
For an encore we could invade Poland and start WW3.:)

BoredNaMoaner · 03-05-2010 07:42AM

At this stage of the game I cannot understand this obsession of finding a commercial partner on the part of the government. Isn't is about time to just forget the commercial MUXes and launch? Clearly there is no partner out there who can make it work, no matter what the Department wishes. Surely the Government isn't going to spend the next few years trying to refloat the commercial end of DTT through another tendering process. Haven't they learnt anything?

watty · 03-05-2010 09:51AM

Knowledgeable people have been saying this since BEFORE the demise of It'sTV. That's back in 2000. Ten Years ago

It's TV was the sole applicant for a digital terrestrial television license under the provisions of the Irish Broadcasting Act 2001

Its broadband scheme was technically inept as they did not take into account the number of users sharing the Interactive Bandwidth. The Interactive Bandwidth was to be several Mbps. But this of course would be for the whole mast. Imagine the speed 20,000 users would get, 300bps. Which is fine to replace phone line on Sky box type Interactive Red button votes etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_terrestrial_television#Republic_of_Ireland

It's TV plan was never commercially viable even if they had had a phone & broadband licence and found a way to work it, which was unlikely (They would have needed about 200MHz + 200Mhz extra spectrum using only TV masts. This is why Mobile uses lots of little masts, the channels can be re-used).

See also Spain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_terrestrial_television#Spain

If Pay DTT was not viable in Ireland in 2000, and was not viable to support DTT rollout in UK, how is it going to work now when all the main Terrestrial UK channels are free on satellite and shortly N.I. DTT will be on higher power. After analogue Switch off is complete in UK, apart from the free satellite services, more of Ireland will be able to receive UK freeview (DTT) direct than could receive Analogue! Additionally, even before Sky Digital, over 75% of Irish households had ITV!

MMDS is dying, losing to pay Satellite and free Satellite. It has up to 120 channels using MPEG2 and can't compete.

Any company funding Pay DTT in ireland will lose its shirt. Just on call centre costs and transmission costs, even if the content was free, which it isn't, even though a user can get it free on Satellite, a commercial operator has to pay.

icdg · 03-05-2010 12:21PM

I've renamed this thread...partially because we are coming up to the first anniversary of the "11th May" referred to in the thread title, but also because it is becoming rather clear that like Boxer, OneVision will never run a service.

Pay-DTT is not viable. I am trying to think of a major country where it has proved viable. Even in France, where against all the odds Canal Plus managed to run a pay-TV service on analogue terrestrial (!!!), DTT is largely a FTA service. In Sweden Boxer only suceeded thanks to the Government stacking the books in its favour (and they were almost taken to the ECJ as a result).

There is a mature pay-TV market in this country with two major players (Sky and UPC). Between them they have over 1 million subscribers which I would submit represents near-saturation point for pay-TV. There hasn't been a pay-TV service launched in this country starting from an absolute zero base of subscribers since Sky in 1989. Any commercial DTT service, in addition, will NEVER be able to compete with either of the two main players in terms of content, there simply isn't the space on the platform. They will only be able to compete on price and that means running as a loss leader in the middle of a recession. I can't see their banks being very agreeable to that.

BTW Welcome back Watty!

Elmo · 03-05-2010 05:23PM

The new thread title is brilliant it really reflexs the complete amount of desprate fustration followed by that sense of pure pessimism that we all must be feeling at this stage.

DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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