AGS and the Ethics of a 2nd job

kravmaga · 26-04-2010 08:02PM #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0426/garda.html

Should members of AGS be allowed to work as Taxi drivers, Door staff, Security staff to subvent recent deductions in their salary.

Apparently a lot of younger members in Dublin are having issues paying their mortgages.

In London, The Met, City of London Police and British Transport Police all receive London Weighting Allowance which can add up to £6,000 pa to basic salary of a P.C.

Should a similiar allowance be introduced here in Dublin for state Keyworkers.

Might be something for the Garda Inspectorate to look at in the future.

Any relevant comments are welcome...

Paulzx · 26-04-2010 08:47PM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0426/garda.html

Should a similiar allowance be introduced here in Dublin for state Keyworkers.
.

They're looking to remove allownaces at the moment, not increase them. We're being hammered for actually daring to be paid for working nights and weekends.

There is not a snowballs chance in hell of any extra money being handed over to our already supposedly overstuffed pay packets.

Remember, "state workers" is a filthy term at the moment.

Hooch · 26-04-2010 09:23PM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0426/garda.html

Should members of AGS be allowed to work as Taxi drivers, Door staff, Security staff to subvent recent deductions in their salary.

I agree with some of the restricted jobs...like security and door staff seeing as we are obliged to be a member of AGS at all times on or off duty.

However I disagree with restrictions on being a Taxi driver and holding a public hourse licence.

Personally.....I think the GRA are fools. There is more important things to be fighting for....fair play to those proposing the vehicles and equipment.

Drummerboy08 · 26-04-2010 09:33PM

Even though I am not a member of AGS, I think well done to the guys calling for more funds for better gear and equipment.

I spend alot of time in garages as part of my job, and the amount of patrol cars that are literally falling apart is unreal. I think I'd take my chances as a criminal in a car if I was being pursued.

27-04-2010 06:20AM

gardaí... are calling for new legislation to include a mandatory 12-year sentence for... assault on a garda.

That's a move in the right direction, in my opinion.

silverharp · 27-04-2010 07:52AM

did I hear the news right that the GRA are calling for higher salaries becausue the gardai will be open to corruption?? I believe the average salary for police in the UK is £35K, the salaries here appear to be higher.

Apparently a lot of younger members in Dublin are having issues paying their mortgages.

with respect that's an individual issue and has no business being incorporated into public policy. if they were reckless in their personal finances then nobody else should be bailing them out, there are other ways to repair ones finances.

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 07:55AM

Silverharp2 wrote: »

did I hear the news right that the GRA are calling for higher salaries becausue the gardai will be open to corruption??

Is there the equivalent of the US IA in the Gardai to keep an eye on this?

TskTsk · 27-04-2010 07:55AM

Silverharp2 wrote: »

did I hear the news right that the GRA are calling for higher salaries becausue the gardai will be open to corruption??

Yes you did

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 08:02AM

Paulzx wrote: »

They're looking to remove allownaces at the moment, not increase them. We're being hammered for actually daring to be paid for working nights and weekends.

There is not a snowballs chance in hell of any extra money being handed over to our already supposedly overstuffed pay packets.

Remember, "state workers" is a filthy term at the moment.

Would you be willing to give up some of that salary for better equipment?

Paulzx · 27-04-2010 09:20AM

Jumpy wrote: »

Would you be willing to give up some of that salary for better equipment?

You'll have to ask a member of AGS.

Hypothetically, would i be willing to give up my salary to buy equipment? Not a hope. Next we'll all be throwing in a tenner to put diesel in the fire engine.

TheNog · 27-04-2010 09:22AM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0426/garda.html

Should members of AGS be allowed to work as Taxi drivers, Door staff, Security staff to subvent recent deductions in their salary.

Apparently a lot of younger members in Dublin are having issues paying their mortgages.

In London, The Met, City of London Police and British Transport Police all receive London Weighting Allowance which can add up to £6,000 pa to basic salary of a P.C.

Should a similiar allowance be introduced here in Dublin for state Keyworkers.

Might be something for the Garda Inspectorate to look at in the future.

Any relevant comments are welcome...

Working as door staff should definitely not be included. The amount of complaints I receive concerning alleged assault by door staff at the local niteclub would only be made worse it involved an off duty Garda. I can see it now: "You havent investigated it properly cos he is a guard. Im going to the Ombiman"

nice guy always wrote: »

fair play to those proposing the vehicles and equipment.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Even though I am not a member of AGS, I think well done to the guys calling for more funds for better gear and equipment.

I spend alot of time in garages as part of my job, and the amount of patrol cars that are literally falling apart is unreal. I think I'd take my chances as a criminal in a car if I was being pursued.

Dont get me started on the state of our cars. :mad:

Deleted User wrote: »

gardaí... are calling for new legislation to include a mandatory 12-year sentence for... assault on a garda.

That's a move in the right direction, in my opinion.

Absolutely but unless judges are on board and when we have enough prison places it wont be worth the paper its printed on.

Silverharp2 wrote: »

with respect that's an individual issue and has no business being incorporated into public policy. if they were reckless in their personal finances then nobody else should be bailing them out, there are other ways to repair ones finances.

Yes and the way to help sort out personal finances is to have a second job.

Jumpy wrote: »

Would you be willing to give up some of that salary for better equipment?

I already have a reduction of about 30% in my income through all the cuts. Would you give up some of your salary to help us protect you and your property?

MagicSean · 27-04-2010 09:27AM

Silverharp2 wrote: »

did I hear the news right that the GRA are calling for higher salaries becausue the gardai will be open to corruption?? I believe the average salary for police in the UK is £35K, the salaries here appear to be higher.

Basic salaries here are higher by about 8% for the first two years but then even out. I don't know what allowances they get though. They also get increases depending on what region they work in. I think the London Met get £2000 extra. The CSO figures published here are completely useless. They include every rank from Garda to Commissioner, they exclude the pension levy and they include overtime, which isn't very common anymore.

Silverharp2 wrote: »

with respect that's an individual issue and has no business being incorporated into public policy. if they were reckless in their personal finances then nobody else should be bailing them out, there are other ways to repair ones finances.

Not really. Because the law says that a Garda who misses a payment and gets into debt should be fired. Its added pressure on them that isn't on regular people. So either its a personal matter or not. It shouldn't go both ways.

nice guy always wrote: »

I agree with some of the restricted jobs...like security and door staff seeing as we are obliged to be a member of AGS at all times on or off duty.

However I disagree with restrictions on being a Taxi driver and holding a public hourse licence.

Same could be said for being a taxi man though. How many times on a saturday night would taximen call the gardaí with all sorts of complaints. As with working in a bar. I dont see why security companies cant hire off duty members in an official capacity, similar to those employed at events.

Jumpy wrote: »

Would you be willing to give up some of that salary for better equipment?

Thats a load of crap. You don't send a man to a building site and say "You can only have a helmet if you take a pay cut".

TheNog · 27-04-2010 09:31AM

There is a thing I forgot to mention. Get rid of that stupid regulation concerning civil debt. For the love of God the GRA mentioned this over a yea ago saying they are actively seeking to have this removed from the Code.

Why the hell is it taking over of a year????????

Get the bloody finger out ffs

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 09:40AM

TheNog wrote: »

I already have a reduction of about 30% in my income through all the cuts. Would you give up some of your salary to help us protect you and your property?

Those cuts are so the country can afford you at all.

Yes, I would be willing to pay extra tax to equip the Gardai, also to assist to run a campaign to improve public image. Small chance of your public image improving while you have this union making these claims though.
I wouldnt pay extra tax to pay you more though. If it looked like you were actually doing something then I would agree with payrises that you might request, however as a member of the public I can say you "appear publicly" to be doing sweet FA.

I say "you" referring to the Gardai, not you personally.

MagicSean · 27-04-2010 11:20AM

In what way are Gardaí doing nothing exactly?

EDIT: Gardaí don't have a union. They are denied that right.

Paulzx · 27-04-2010 12:49PM

Jumpy wrote: »

If it looked like you were actually doing something then I would agree with payrises that you might request, however as a member of the public I can say you "appear publicly" to be doing sweet FA.

.

I suggest you pay a visit to any of the District courts in Dublin any day of the week. The queues of cases waiting to go in front of the judges might make you think otherwise.

TheNog · 27-04-2010 01:27PM

Jumpy wrote: »

however as a member of the public I can say you "appear publicly" to be doing sweet FA.

I say "you" referring to the Gardai, not you personally.

Can you elaborate on the above?

Paulzx wrote: »

I suggest you pay a visit to any of the District courts in Dublin any day of the week. The queues of cases waiting to go in front of the judges might make you think otherwise.

+ 1

Sunday was my first day off in 2 weeks due to having to go to court. The longest number of weeks I have worked without having one complete day off, is 3 weeks. Believe it or not I am not the only either.

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 01:32PM

Paulzx wrote: »

I suggest you pay a visit to any of the District courts in Dublin any day of the week. The queues of cases waiting to go in front of the judges might make you think otherwise.

That is if I was proactively to do this, but who would? Public view is different. Like AGS turning up when called for instance. Or even being visible in trouble spots late at night.
Paying you more will not fix this, also bear in mind that your average person will not realise that a good part of this lies at the hands of the courts system and its revolving doors. They will blame the front end of AGS.
Sort out your public image, then try for payrises or reversals.

Paulzx · 27-04-2010 02:04PM

Jumpy wrote: »

Sort out your public image, .

So employ spindoctors or PR consultants? What policing problems is that going to solve?

Its bad enough having to listen to politiicians spouting ****e that has been handed to them by overpaid pr flunkies without AGS starting this too.

Sofa King Great · 27-04-2010 02:06PM

Jumpy,

How do you propose the average Garda sorts out the public image of AGS?

The reason it takes so long for Gardai to arrive, why there aren't gardai on every corner and why they aren't in trouble spots is down to resources. It is certainly not because they are "doing sweet FA"

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 02:21PM

Paulzx wrote: »

So employ spindoctors or PR consultants? What policing problems is that going to solve?

Its bad enough having to listen to politiicians spouting ****e that has been handed to them by overpaid pr flunkies without AGS starting this too.

Yes, I believe they should advertise their presence, and if their representatives want to protest about anything, then protest that without sufficient resources and manpower they can not keep your average law abiding citizen with at least the illusion of safety. The gardai need respect borne from the average public citizen knowing that if they need them, AGS is there. Right now if my home was broken into I dont have total trust that the Gardai would provide protection. I believe they would show up hours later, dust a bit and give a report.
This is not because I have had this experience, this is because I have heard the experiences of others who have. I am your normal citizen who stays out of trouble, there are many others like me.

I know this idea might make some members cringe, but what exactly is wrong with something like this?

Also, stop taking offense because I am criticising. If anyone should be able to handle criticism its the countrys police force.

MagicSean · 27-04-2010 02:51PM

Jumpy wrote: »

Yes, I believe they should advertise their presence, and if their representatives want to protest about anything, then protest that without sufficient resources and manpower they can not keep your average law abiding citizen with at least the illusion of safety. The gardai need respect borne from the average public citizen knowing that if they need them, AGS is there.

Their reps have been protesting. Nobody listens to them. If there is an urgent call that involves a risk of injury or death Gardaí always give it priority.

Jumpy wrote: »

Right now if my home was broken into I dont have total trust that the Gardai would provide protection. I believe they would show up hours later, dust a bit and give a report.
This is not because I have had this experience, this is because I have heard the experiences of others who have. I am your normal citizen who stays out of trouble, there are many others like me.

I heard the earth was flat. Doesn't mean I believe it. If your home is broken into and you are there and you call the gardaí it is given high priority. If you come home to find your house has been broken into it is not treated as urgent.

Jumpy wrote: »

I know this idea might make some members cringe, but what exactly is wrong with something like this?

Waste of money that isn't there.

Jumpy wrote: »

Also, stop taking offense because I am criticising. If anyone should be able to handle criticism its the countrys police force.

Why? Do you not think we get enough of it on a regular basis? Criticism should generally be based on facts. What you have there is a bandwagon.

Paulzx · 27-04-2010 02:59PM

Jumpy wrote: »

Yes, I believe they should advertise their presence, and if their representatives want to protest about anything, then protest that without sufficient resources and manpower they can not keep your average law abiding citizen with at least the illusion of safety. The gardai need respect borne from the average public citizen knowing that if they need them, AGS is there. Right now if my home was broken into I dont have total trust that the Gardai would provide protection. I believe they would show up hours later, dust a bit and give a report.
This is not because I have had this experience, this is because I have heard the experiences of others who have. I am your normal citizen who stays out of trouble, there are many others like me.

I know this idea might make some members cringe, but what exactly is wrong with something like this?

Also, stop taking offense because I am criticising. If anyone should be able to handle criticism its the countrys police force.

Pictures of cops on the back of a bus would help restore your trust in the An Garda Siochana? I'd say the local hooligans would be shi&&in themselves:D

I'm not a Garda by the way so i can't be offended by your criticism.

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 03:33PM

Positive image > Negative image.
Not really much more I can say if posters pick out the smaller parts of what is essentially a bigger picture.

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 03:38PM

As a side note, if AGS do put their image on the back of a bus, it might be better to make sure of the positioning of the exhaust pipe. I just realised what I posted.

Paulzx · 27-04-2010 03:55PM

Jumpy wrote: »

As a side note, if AGS do put their image on the back of a bus, it might be better to make sure of the positioning of the exhaust pipe. I just realised what I posted.

I've already reported it:D

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 03:57PM

I searched for "Police Advertising"

I need a proof reader.

TheNog · 27-04-2010 04:10PM

Jumpy wrote: »

Yes, I believe they should advertise their presence, and if their representatives want to protest about anything, then protest that without sufficient resources and manpower they can not keep your average law abiding citizen with at least the illusion of safety. The gardai need respect borne from the average public citizen knowing that if they need them, AGS is there.

You prefer the illusion of policing as opposed to proper policing?

Did you know that at any one time day or night there are roughly 3,000 gardai working in Ireland with a population of 4.5 million?

Do you realise that when a person dials 999, they are not the only one dialling that number?

Right now if my home was broken into I dont have total trust that the Gardai would provide protection. I believe they would show up hours later, dust a bit and give a report.
This is not because I have had this experience, this is because I have heard the experiences of others who have. I am your normal citizen who stays out of trouble, there are many others like me.

Taking a report and subsequent scene of crimes are only a very small part but important part of a burglary investigation. After you make a report of burglary the process of investigation begins which can take several hours actively investigating it. It is not simply have a look around and dust a few areas as you are implying.

I know this idea might make some members cringe, but what exactly is wrong with something like this?

Are you serious?

I would prefer money being spent on a new car for my station.
I would prefer money being spent on a couple of more computers for my files.
I would prefer money being spent on recruiting more Gardai.
I would prefer money being spent on purpose built stations to increase safety for Gardai and prisoners.
I would prefer money being spent on proper and practical uniform.
I would prefer money being spent on continuous training.

These are just a few things I would like

Also, stop taking offense because I am criticising. If anyone should be able to handle criticism its the countrys police force.

There is only so much criticism a person can take. I tend to ignore them now. Not worth listening to, most of them anyway.

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 04:33PM

TheNog wrote: »

Are you serious?

I would prefer money being spent on a new car for my station.
I would prefer money being spent on a couple of more computers for my files.
I would prefer money being spent on recruiting more Gardai.
I would prefer money being spent on purpose built stations to increase safety for Gardai and prisoners.
I would prefer money being spent on proper and practical uniform.
I would prefer money being spent on continuous training.

These are just a few things I would like

Then why is the only thing that is immediately visible to the public your representative organisation asking for more pay?

Therefore increasing the hostility to the private sector - In this case the Gardai.

Try and see it from an average Joe point of view rather than taking it like "everyone is against us"

27-04-2010 04:34PM

TheNog wrote: »

Taking a report and subsequent scene of crimes are only a very small part but important part of a burglary investigation. After you make a report of burglary the process of investigation begins which can take several hours actively investigating it. It is not simply have a look around and dust a few areas as you are implying.

In fairness, as much as I like AGS, unless it's a serious burglary were hundreds of thousands of euro of stuff goes missing, I've never seen any 'dusting' or investigation done at a burglary. I've also never seen a thief found out at a later date, nor items returned (that's just in my own personal experience, and in fairness, such situations aren't just limited to Ireland).

Anyway, my thoughts on Gardaì getting second jobs is a bit mixed. On one hand I can't see any issue with Gardaì delivering my post, selling me sweets at the corner shop or sweeping roads or such.

However, I do have an issue with Gardaì being bouncers and the likes. Those are dangerous jobs and people get hurt doing them a lot of the time. I don't want my local Gardaì doing potentially dangerous jobs when they should be relaxing or sleeping.

And I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the Garda who has to beat a violent scumbag into the back of his car, only to bump into him and his several mates at a pub/club later in the evening.

They should be allowed have second jobs if they feel up to it, but the jobs should have to be approved by the station's Superintendent.

As said above, though, they should be allowed to rent themselves out as Gardaì (though this obviously goes against the "don't dress like a guard when you're off duty" rule... if that rule exists? I'm sure it does?!)

Jumpy wrote: »

Then why is the only thing that is immediately visible to the public your representative organisation asking for more pay?

Would you be a Garda for minimum wage? I feel they are among a small group of people who earn their money. Much as I hate to say it, having "Garda" on your vest is like wearing a reticule in some places.

ScubaDave · 27-04-2010 04:43PM

Jumpy wrote: »

Yes, I believe they should advertise their presence, and if their representatives want to protest about anything, then protest that without sufficient resources and manpower they can not keep your average law abiding citizen with at least the illusion of safety. The gardai need respect borne from the average public citizen knowing that if they need them, AGS is there. Right now if my home was broken into I dont have total trust that the Gardai would provide protection. I believe they would show up hours later, dust a bit and give a report.
This is not because I have had this experience, this is because I have heard the experiences of others who have. I am your normal citizen who stays out of trouble, there are many others like me.

I know this idea might make some members cringe, but what exactly is wrong with something like this?

Also, stop taking offense because I am criticising. If anyone should be able to handle criticism its the countrys police force.

Have you seen where the exhaust pipe is!?

AGS and the Ethics of a 2nd job

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