Gardaí - Cut our pay and we will become corrupt

darkman2 · 27-04-2010 09:23AM #1

Bit of a stupid thing to say given what went on in Donegal for years and the numerous cases of corruption in the Gardaí over the years. It did not take a pay cut for them to be corrupt. Looks like more of them are easily corruptable. And this Union want guns for Gardaí at the same time as coming out with statements like this!?

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/corruption-warning-over-gardai-2153496.html

PCPhoto · 27-04-2010 09:29AM

someone should ask them if we keep their pay at the same rate and take away their allowances would that be ok (all 57 allowances)

even the "Lanzarotte allowance" ..... its well known that Gardai get an "allowance" for the overtime they miss while they are on holidays !!!

NOTE: Gardai cant quality for ALL 57 Allowances (some of the allowances are job specific - ie. working with dogs allowance would only apply to those who work with garda trained dogs) - but if you add up all the allowances an individual garda is allowed then it would be pretty high.

toomevara · 27-04-2010 09:34AM

Cut our pay and we will become corrupt...ahem...I think that train may have left the station some time ago. Arguably the opposite may in fact be the case, cut pay and you may attract folk to the force who are genuinely interested in policing rather than the ludicrously cushy pay, conditions and 'extras'.....

Sofa King Great · 27-04-2010 09:34AM

What he said was:

"There is always the likelihood - and it has been proved in other countries where you pay police forces at a rate of pay that puts them in a vulnerable place - that there is a risk of people being got at and that's a fact of life,"

Just because there was corruption in the past does not mean it should not be exposed as a risk now. Would you prefer they ignored the possibility of some debt ridden Gardai being "got at"

silent gav · 27-04-2010 09:38AM

Sofa King Great wrote: »

Just because there was corruption in the past does not mean it should not be exposed as a risk now. Would you prefer they ignored the possibility of some debt ridden Gardai being "got at"

Not when it's being used as threat.

kodute · 27-04-2010 09:39AM

Its a pretty ****ty job separating drunken, fighting shams outside supermacs at 2 in the morning. Give them a fair wage.

Sofa King Great · 27-04-2010 09:44AM

silent gav wrote: »

Not when it's being used as threat.

Read the article and find where it is being used as a threat?

silent gav · 27-04-2010 10:01AM

Sofa King Great wrote: »

Read the article and find where it is being used as a threat?

Of course it's not an explicit threat. Don't think he's that stupid. If a politician had said it. i.e due to our pay cuts we may become corrupt would you be as simpathetic?

vodafoneproblem · 27-04-2010 10:01AM

kodute wrote: »

Its a pretty ****ty job separating drunken, fighting shams outside supermacs at 2 in the morning. Give them a fair wage.

Gardai, Nurses, Teachers, and everyone else in the PS make more than a fair wage at this juncture of our country.

You know it and I know it.

danbohan · 27-04-2010 10:15AM

Sofa King Great wrote: »

What he said was:

"There is always the likelihood - and it has been proved in other countries where you pay police forces at a rate of pay that puts them in a vulnerable place - that there is a risk of people being got at and that's a fact of life,"

Just because there was corruption in the past does not mean it should not be exposed as a risk now. Would you prefer they ignored the possibility of some debt ridden Gardai being "got at"

they can resign and get a much better paid job! in private sector anytime they want , they can then contribute average 1500 per month into a private pension to give them equivalent of their current garda pension at 57 , hold on for the rush .!

kodute · 27-04-2010 10:18AM

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Gardai, Nurses, Teachers, and everyone else in the PS make more than a fair wage at this juncture of our country.

You know it and I know it.

Here we go, another Public Sector vs Private Sector debate, whose shít smells the least. Thanks :pac:

I don't know that your incorrect statement is true and you certainly don't know it to be true.

pasha75 · 27-04-2010 10:19AM

Stone was simply stating a fact that a young Garda caught in the situation of possibly losing his home may be tempted by, for example a gangland figure. However all right thinking members and despite what some of you think, is the vast vast majority would have no sympathy for any person who betrays the trust put in him or her.
When you talk about corruption is there anything in the last DECADE you can mention where Gardai deliberately were corrupt. Of course there will always be some rotten apples or operations where the Gardai are caught in the middle (SHELL etc) but I know the vast majority are honest decent people.
In relation to the allowances, if you actually check them out the are fairly meagre in the majority of cases and most do not qualify for them. However I do agree that they should be looked at and if needed some of them could be justifiably cut of abolished. JUST AS SOON AS THE TDS GET RID OF THERE WALKING AOUND EXPENSES.

hobochris · 27-04-2010 10:26AM

Emergency services pay should be the last on the list to be cut(if at all). Everyone else(including teachers), are fair game in my book.

Zebra3 · 27-04-2010 10:27AM

One only has to look at the attacks carried out by guards on innocent civilians on Dame St a few years ago to see how corrupt they are.

How hard did members of the force work to ensure their thuggish collegues faced the laws like anyone else would have? :rolleyes:

vodafoneproblem · 27-04-2010 10:31AM

kodute wrote: »

Here we go, another Public Sector vs Private Sector debate, whose shít smells the least. Thanks :pac:

I don't know that your incorrect statement is true and you certainly don't know it to be true.

I know my correct statement is correct! The only problem is our politicians and judiciary and doctors and surgeons and everyone else paid by our taxes is overpaid as well. It's all knotted in together. Ireland in Wonderland! The only thing most of us are not sure of is NAMA the way to go. Oh, and some of the big private sector wages aren't helping our competitiveness or our economy, either!

kodute · 27-04-2010 10:47AM

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Gardai, Nurses, Teachers, and everyone else in the PS make more than a fair wage at this juncture of our country.

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

I know my correct statement is correct! The only problem is our politicians and judiciary and doctors and surgeons and ....

Either you oversee the wages of every employee of the state or you are some kind of omnipotent being.

To suggest that everyone in the PS make more than a fair wage is simply incorrect. I'll agree that there is a huge amount of waste and "fingleton money" in the PS but there are far more people earning a whole lot less.

Back OT...

Pay, Reference Points, and Police Performance

Alexandre Mas
University of California, Berkeley - Economic Analysis & Policy Group; National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER)

May 2006

NBER Working Paper No. W12202

Abstract:
Several theories suggest that pay raises below a reference point will reduce job performance. Final offer arbitration for police unions provides a unique opportunity to examine these theories, as the police officers either receive their requested wage or receive a lower one. In the months after New Jersey police officers lose in arbitration, arrest rates and average sentence length decline and crime reports rise relative to when they win. These declines are larger when the awarded wage is further from the police union's demand. The findings support the idea that considerations of fairness, disappointment, and, more generally, reference points affect workplace behavior.

Job performance is worse when pay is not adequate. Simple, right?
Not a hard stretch to see some members become susceptible to corruption in low pay conditions.

vodafoneproblem · 27-04-2010 10:54AM

^Most people are doing very well in the PS/CS compared to the Real World. Especially the well-known jobs that I mentioned. Boo Hoo, they can't afford the mortgage repayments on their third house because the rents have gone down and now they're in the mire. (This is only semi-joking.) However, the private sector aren't helping, either, in a lot of cases.

27-04-2010 10:55AM

Normal Garda on the street, dirrecting traffic, patrolling drunken folks after pubs and clubs close etc could be done by most of the population, therefore it shouldn't command a high salary. Rank and file members are paid very well for what they do.

kuntboy · 27-04-2010 11:08AM

Maybe if they all weren't so greedy and mortgaged up to their eyeballs with multiple properties. Maybe they can target those violent learner drivers in another "crackdown". I'm sure the fines won't magically "disappear" into the "fund".

heybaby · 27-04-2010 11:09AM

As we all know, many businesses have closed down due to the recession including pubs, EXCEPT ONE, public house on harcourt street frequented by public servants which judging by the article below seems to be positively thriving, which really speaks volumes about public service pay in this country!!!

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2009/12/06/story46106.asp

jonsnow · 27-04-2010 11:11AM

pasha75 wrote: »

.
When you talk about corruption is there anything in the last DECADE you can mention where Gardai deliberately were corrupt. Of course there will always be some rotten apples or operations where the Gardai are caught in the middle (SHELL etc) but I know the vast majority are honest decent people.

.

yes.The advance pitstop scandal from 8 years ago.As far as i know nothing much ever came of it and all the gardai were probably promoted to more senior positions.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2002/12/29/story953513528.asp

Other controversies that continue to dog Byrne's term in office include the shooting dead of John Carthy during the Abbeylara siege, the false murder confession of drug addict Dean Lyons, and the purchase of Byrne's home from a convicted killer (the commissioner said he did not know the identity of the owner of the house).

This year saw a remarkable `restructuring' in the garda transport depot, according to Byrne's latest crime report.

No mention was made of The Sunday Business Post's exposé of the extraordinary prices charged to the depot by Advance Pitstop, and the junkets enjoyed by named officers at the depot, courtesy of Advance Pitstop.

Pitstop overcharged the gardai €264,000, and it is estimated that Pitstop's contract -- obtained with the most expensive tender -- cost the taxpayer €400,000. The junkets Pitstop laid on took in lavish late-night entertainment spots in Rome, Puerto Banus and the Algarve, as well as the set of Coronation Street, a Manchester United Champions League match and the Ryder Cup golf course in Valderama.

Travelling on each junket was Department of Justice official Olly Hanlon, then a technical adviser in the garda transport depot. Hanlon said he was "disappointed to find no tyre facilities" on each trip, and he characterised the €57,000 junkets spree as a series of "brainstorming sessions" about the tyre business. Now, under the `restructuring' at the transport depot referred to in Byrne's crime report, Hanlon has been given overall charge of the garda fleet.

27-04-2010 11:13AM

heybaby wrote: »

EXCEPT ONE, public house on harcourt street frequented by public servants

Anyone who has spent 10 mins outside that place can testify that loads of badge flashing goes on to get in free, bacon brigade club of choice.

baltimore sun · 27-04-2010 11:37AM

cut their wages, let them become corrupt, would ya rather give a copper 50 to make the penalty points disappear or get 2 anyway or 4 if you bring it to court, i'd rather give him a fifty anyday.

anyway there's plenty of garda corruption going on already

27-04-2010 11:48AM

I just got this in a PM,

"Normal Garda on the street, dirrecting traffic, patrolling drunken folks after pubs and clubs close etc could be done by most of the population, therefore it shouldn't command a high salary. Rank and file members are paid very well for what they do."

Normal Garda on the street do all those things you've mentioned plus 10 times more, they are on standby all the time and are first responders to 999 calls and see and deal with the most horrific and hairiest of **** so you don't have to. I doubt most of the population could handle infant deaths, teen suicides road traffic collisions, having junkies threaten to prick you needles or have death threats on you. Members of An Garda Siochana agree that the normal Garda on the beat is the hardest and respected job of all An Garda Siochana, its the frontline. It deserves a decent wage.

I deal with scum of the earth and see the unimaginable, the heart breaking and get paid to engage with scum of the earth. We protect your friends and family from burglars, thieves and assault etc... more times than you know by patroling your neighbourhoods unseen while you sleep.

I earn 350 a week after tax and all those so called allowances. I have a mortgage of 1000 a month, a wife that works one day a week and has two kids to support. My bank goes to 0 each month i'm border line arrears as are many of my colleagues. I live in a ****ty 2 bedroom house. If i don't do overtime i won't make my bills... that simple.

So i've taken a bit of umbrage to your sweepingly stereotypical post. Those in management positions i.e. the bosses are well paid but the grunts get fook all - If our work was performance based the rank and file would get little and the grunt on the street would be the highest paid as they do all the work, you really have no idea what goes on behind the scenes

Paints a very good picture, no mention of

- dial 999 and have to wait up to 30 mins for a squad car to arrive
- the guards ferrying their girlfriends or random tramps home in squad cars on Saturday night at 2am ish in full view of the general population while on duty
- Guards ignoring blatent scum who terrorise the elderly and families in "rough" areas.
we can all add 3 or more points to the list.

That crap about them keeping us safe while we sleep is rich, my Dad was coming home from a few pints years ago when I was 10 or 11, two lads having a fight outside on the street, one of them ordered my Dad to let him in as the other guy was going to stab him, Dad wouldn't open the door, mum dialled 999 and told them the story. Dad had to give both of the scum a thumping to get rid of them (he was well into his 40s at the time). 40 mins later the squad car arrives, we felt rightly safe that night alright.

Who takes out a mortgage of a grand a month when they earn 350/week after tax. Five years ago I was on €50000/annum and thought long and hard about taking one for €850/month out.

I wouldn't be surprised if a uniform annoys me over the coming weeks after this to be honest.

kodute · 27-04-2010 12:13PM

RoverJames wrote: »

I just got this in a PM,

So you decided to post a PM in this thread to make your point, with the users permission I hope?

heybaby · 27-04-2010 12:14PM

RoverJames wrote: »

I just got this in a PM,

"Normal Garda on the street, dirrecting traffic, patrolling drunken folks after pubs and clubs close etc could be done by most of the population, therefore it shouldn't command a high salary. Rank and file members are paid very well for what they do."

Normal Garda on the street do all those things you've mentioned plus 10 times more, they are on standby all the time and are first responders to 999 calls and see and deal with the most horrific and hairiest of **** so you don't have to. I doubt most of the population could handle infant deaths, teen suicides road traffic collisions, having junkies threaten to prick you needles or have death threats on you. Members of An Garda Siochana agree that the normal Garda on the beat is the hardest and respected job of all An Garda Siochana, its the frontline. It deserves a decent wage.

I deal with scum of the earth and see the unimaginable, the heart breaking and get paid to engage with scum of the earth. We protect your friends and family from burglars, thieves and assault etc... more times than you know by patroling your neighbourhoods unseen while you sleep.

I earn 350 a week after tax and all those so called allowances. I have a mortgage of 1000 a month, a wife that works one day a week and has two kids to support. My bank goes to 0 each month i'm border line arrears as are many of my colleagues. I live in a ****ty 2 bedroom house. If i don't do overtime i won't make my bills... that simple.

So i've taken a bit of umbrage to your sweepingly stereotypical post. Those in management positions i.e. the bosses are well paid but the grunts get fook all - If our work was performance based the rank and file would get little and the grunt on the street would be the highest paid as they do all the work, you really have no idea what goes on behind the scenes

Paints a very good picture, no mention of

- dial 999 and have to wait up to 30 mins for a squad car to arrive
- the guards ferrying their girlfriends or random tramps home in squad cars on Saturday night at 2am ish in full view of the general population while on duty
- Guards ignoring blatent scum who terrorise the elderly and families in "rough" areas.
we can all add 3 or more points to the list.

Who takes out a mortgage of a grand a month when they earn 350/week after tax. Five years ago I was on €50000/annum and thought long and hard about taking one for €850/month out.

I wouldn't be surprised if a uniform annoys me over the coming weeks after this to be honest.

Great post, look as far as im concerned,

the gardai = civil servants in peaked caps

Far too much respect is given to this pampered, over paid, under worked motley crew whose list of benefits and allowances is as long as your arm. Unfortunately with the badge and a guaranteed job for life (till 50 anyway) comes a sense of entitlement and a god complex. Its only by the grace of god for the gardai that the irish people are a docile people and violent crime is not along the same lines as parts of the UK or USA because I shudder to think how our keystone cops would cope with crime on an american scale. What the gardai needs is a massive reality check, renewable 6 months contracts for the lot based on a performance review with an emphasis on proactive policing, not the current reactive model where the guards only get involved grudgingly as a last resort because, god forbid they might have to write up a report. This nonsense where gardai must attend the district court tieing them up for hours at a time must end also, particularly when the offense is a minor one, surely an on the spot fine would suffice with a three strike clause coming into effect, either that or the use of video conferencing would ensure that officers spend more time out looking to catch people offending instead of sitting in a court room waiting for the inevitable adjournment.

vodafoneproblem · 27-04-2010 12:19PM

Got the exact same PM, RoverJames. Someone's doing a lot of undercover PR work! No mention of the incremental scale, I notice...

Rookster · 27-04-2010 12:27PM

They were corrupt before the pay cuts anyway so this argument does not stand up.

Also they knew the wage rates before they entered the job so why did they go mad with property and cars etc.

SlabMurphy · 27-04-2010 12:33PM

God love them - and the rest of our public ' servants ' ( or the public circus as i8 call it ) and semi state employees. Agood proportion of them are driving taxi's, just like the army, porters and ambulance and fire brigade crews etc in hospitals ( reguliar shift hours ,plenty of time off ), and the very hard working teachers ( do around 25 hours a week, off 4/5 months of the year ).

Also Gurads, Army and prison officers retire early, 55 or what ever. A full decade to do offical nixers. Some neck :mad:

Andrew33 · 27-04-2010 12:41PM

I'm actually too embarrassed to say how little I earned for 8 hours last night (less than half the minimum wage) but I certainly won't be turning to crime as a result. I think its an insult to everybody in the State to suggest that Gardai might become corrupt if their pay is cut. I think its very unfair that they could be sacked for getting into debt though. That's just a ridiculous rule.

27-04-2010 12:47PM

kodute wrote: »

So you decided to post a PM in this thread to make your point, with the users permission I hope?

No, I didn't seek permission, I did not reveal who it was from so no permission required

Gardaí - Cut our pay and we will become corrupt

Comments