Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

dowlingm · 09-04-2010 7:22pm

@Hungerford I seem to remember there was something about IE/NTA not including Limerick Junction-Rosslare in their agreement...

lord lucan · 09-04-2010 8:22pm

IE already out with the "We'll review it if demand justifies it" line. Lame attempt at appeasing the natives!!:rolleyes:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/iarnrod-eireann-to-review-railway-line-closure-453309.html

KC61 · 09-04-2010 9:29pm

Southsider1 wrote: »

There is no ticket office at Rosslare Harbour is there? If so where? Also I found out last week that you can't buy a ticket for any station on the Tipperary to Rosslare line from the machines at Heuston or Limerick Junction.

In that case you buy on board the train from the ticket checker.

Southsider1 · 09-04-2010 9:34pm

KC61 wrote: »

In that case you buy on board the train from the ticket checker.

Ah, thanks very much!

Hungerford · 09-04-2010 9:36pm

To be frank, I am surprised about how poor the campaign from the likes of RUI has been to date. It has received surprisingly little coverage and points such as the fact the route is quicker than road haven't even been explored.

And it's not like they can afford to take a relaxed attitude to this. I've just been looking through the list of officially open but mothballed lines. This is the fate that Rosslare-Waterford may have in store:

Tralee - Fenit: Suggested by IE as a heritage railway after closure. Line never lifted or officially closed but a shopping centre somehow ended up on the trackbed just outside Tralee station. Whoops!

Limerick - Foynes: One visit by a weedsprayer then nothing. IE suddenly discovered that something happened to a bridge and forgot to repair it. Line disconnected from network last year. Heavily overgrown. Whoops!

Navan - Kingscourt: One visit by a weedsprayer then nothing. IE suddenly discovered that something happened to a bridge and forgot to repair it. They seem to be very unlucky when it comes to bridges. Anyway, Line disconnected from network last year. Heavily overgrown. Whoops!

Waterford - New Ross: In fairness, they did weedspray it until the line became so dangerous that a locomotive expired on it. Instead of fixing the issue, they forgot to repair it. Mysteriously, some of the track was lifted despite the absence of a closure order. Once again, disconnected from network last year. Heavily overgrown. Whoops!

Mullingar - Athlone: IE's maintenance crew must be so unlucky. Guess what? When it came to spraying this line, they had something better to do that day. They actually came back one day and found that the line was still connected but that it had become impassible. Whoops!

Midleton - Youghal: Disconnected from network last year. Trackwork has been 'borrowed' from this section over the years. They keep on misplacing it though. Guess what, it's extremely heavily overgrown. Whoops!

Claremorris - Collooney: This is still officially open. Anyway, IE's maintenance crew realised that letting householders taking over part of the alignment would make their jobs easier. This innovative move meant that they had to spend a fortune clearing it to satisfy those WOT types.

These guys are so accident prone.

Hungerford · 09-04-2010 9:39pm

dowlingm wrote: »

@Hungerford I seem to remember there was something about IE/NTA not including Limerick Junction-Rosslare in their agreement...

It's more interesting than that. Someone seems to have forgotten to publish Schedule A - the standards that IE have to adhere to in terms of service and routes. Quite odd how these accidents keep on happening around here:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/Contracts/IR_contract.pdf

Our man in Havana · 09-04-2010 9:45pm

Waterford - New Ross: In fairness, they did weedspray it until the line became so dangerous that a locomotive expired on it. Instead of fixing the issue, they forgot to repair it. Mysteriously, some of the track was lifted despite the absence of a closure order. Once again, disconnected from network last year. Heavily overgrown. Whoops!

It is disconnected alot longer than that.

Hungerford · 09-04-2010 10:05pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

It is disconnected alot longer than that.

They only pulled up Abbey Junction recently. They severed the track ages ago but maintained the pretence that it was connected to the network until then.

Southsider1 · 09-04-2010 10:07pm

I think what CIE needs is a Michael O'Leary or Willie Walsh type to take it by the scruff of the neck. Cut through all the Union bullsh1t, tear out the waste and streamline the operation. Revise the ticketing systems, and generally shake it up a bit... I was amazed to hear that there are three separate boards in CIE - the main CIE board and one each for BE and IE... Absolute madness!

Judgement Day · 09-04-2010 10:42pm

Southsider1 wrote: »

I think what CIE needs is a Michael O'Leary or Willie Walsh type to take it by the scruff of the neck. Cut through all the Union bullsh1t, tear out the waste and streamline the operation. Revise the ticketing systems, and generally shake it up a bit... I was amazed to hear that there are three separate boards in CIE - the main CIE board and one each for BE and IE... Absolute madness!

Forget about the union bull**** - first get rid of ALL the management - then deal with the unions who, in fairness, only look out for their members wellfare i.e the lump (severance packages) as everbody at non-management levels knows that they are just marking time until their clock arrives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBMHU1BJXCw

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 11:26pm

Southsider1 wrote: »

I think what CIE needs is a Michael O'Leary or Willie Walsh

Or ideally someone with Thatcher's balls. Not sure MOL or WW would be up to it.

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 11:42pm

Hungerford wrote: »

Claremorris - Collooney: This is still officially open. Anyway, IE's maintenance crew realised that letting householders taking over part of the alignment would make their jobs easier. This innovative move meant that they had to spend a fortune clearing it to satisfy those WOT types.

Drove over this recently in part of rural Co Sligo. Didn't realise at first what it was - thought it was a BnM line as the land around it is appallingly bad... so bad that I thought it was bog. Pretty obvious after you see the bit that I did how it got its nickname.

lord lucan · 09-04-2010 11:50pm

JHMEG wrote: »

Drove over this recently in part of rural Co Sligo. Didn't realise at first what it was - thought it was a BnM line as the land around it is appallingly bad... so bad that I thought it was bog. Pretty obvious after you see the bit that I did how it got its nickname.

Here's a pic from Carrowmore on the Burma Road,says it all really!:D

http://www.eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/C/Carrowmore/slides/DSC05461.html

Our man in Havana · 10-04-2010 12:09am

That bit is in surprisingly good nick considering the state of some other closed lines.

Judgement Day · 10-04-2010 12:41am

The track doesn't look much different to when I travelled over it on the 30th November 1981 in a special inspection car trip organised by Fr.McGreil of WRC fame - sorry DW! Apart from the rain, my abiding memory is of running down a flock of sheep as we approached Claremorris on the return journey - very unpleasant.

DWCommuter · 10-04-2010 2:14am

Judgement Day wrote: »

The track doesn't look much different to when I travelled over it on the 30th November 1981 in a special inspection car trip organised by Fr.McGreil of WRC fame - sorry DW! Apart from the rain, my abiding memory is of running down a flock of sheep as we approached Claremorris on the return journey - very unpleasant.

No worries JD I was only 10 years of age and did not foresee how caught up in this mess I would be.

Hungerford has made a great post there in relation to how care and maintenence is handled. Sums it up perfectly.

dermo88 · 10-04-2010 10:06am

DW Commuter.

Your post in relation to this line on railusers.ie sums up the issue very well. As normal, no holds barred, said as it is, no nonsense. It might not be polite, but its what is required to get the message across.

Someone mentioned Michael O'Leary, or "someone with Thatchers balls". I have constantly predicted that this would be the end game with CIE/IE. Finally we see that privatisation is not the bogeyman constantly shown by the media, or unions. If CIE do not wish to operate the line properly, then a private operator, under contract can.

We are seeing a repeat of the same 'closure by stealth' policies employed by British Rail in the 1980's, with the likes of the Leeds-Settle-Carlisle line.

Instead of Ribblehead viaduct, we see the Barrow viaduct.

The lines 'raison d'etre' with the demise of Sugar Beet traffic was in question from 2006 onwards. I do ask, can it be rescued. I say, with proper timetabling and competitive timings it certainly can.

Closing the route would reduce in minimal savings compared with the overall budget of CIE/Iarnrod Eireann.

There is the potential for a decent cross country service from Arklow-Wexford-Waterford-Limerick-Cork and Galway. Whether it can compete with roads is another matter.

I would like to see it saved, but in the context of Iarnrod Eireanns benign neglect of this route and others, I can only conclude that privatisation of the routes CIE does not wish to operate is a desirable outcome.

Should it require, as I have advocated in the past, a strike, a lockout, or the removal of entrenched elements awaiting their final payoff and pension, so be it. Then, at least professional managers and workers can work in partnership to make this route and others succeed. Is that too much to ask?

Frankly, nothing else will remove the poisonous cancer of CIE from Irish society. A recession, as it was in 1971, 1981, and the early 2000's has always been a catalyst for a cold hard analysis of the rail network, transportation policy, and change.

Whether it is for the better or worse, remains to be seen. I remain cautiously optimistic.

Zoney · 10-04-2010 10:41am

dermo88 wrote: »

I would like to see it saved, but in the context of Iarnrod Eireanns benign neglect of this route and others, I can only conclude that privatisation of the routes CIE does not wish to operate is a desirable outcome.

Why do you conclude that? It would cost less to pay CIE directly for each such route than pay a private operator to run it (and that is what would be happening, it's make-believe to think a private company would make money overall without getting it from the government). Even on busy services in the UK the taxpayer is having to subsidise private operators plus Network Rail overall more than they ever did with BR.

I agree with splitting Iarnród Éireann into a public infrastructure owner and an entirely separate public services operator though, and indeed having provision for private operators to run certain routes if they want (even though I see it as merely a mechanism for crony capitalism, there should at least be a framework in place in case of some kind of genuine possibility for a privately run service).

dermo88 · 10-04-2010 12:51pm

Give me crony capitalism compared to the crony socialism. Do you see the "workers" protesting at the closure of this route.

No

They are salivating like rabid dogs at the prospect of redundancy payments.

I mean, 11 level crossings have to be individually manned on the 30 mile route. Level crossings was one major element which killed off Mallow to Waterford in March 1967, they are expensive to maintain.

Privatisation is not a panacea per se, and its not an ideal solution. But take the reality. We have a state owned operator, succeeding in failure.

With a private operator, you set down in stone the improvements and servce provision required. The local authorities and/or central government help pay for the improvements. It is locally accountable. The services meet at Waterford, Wexford, Limerick Junction. New drivers could be employed based from Wexford. Imagine....they could even be stakeholders in a new operation.

This is what was done in Sweden, Germany, Denmark. It can be done here, or can we just proceed in copying the worst of our neighbours mistakes, and ignoring the improvements of the best?

We have seen what CIE is. Its a corrupt gravy train. The economic boom and the consistent wastage of money were able to conceal a multitude of errors. Now, the piper has to be paid. Surely.....there is a better way.

Our man in Havana · 10-04-2010 12:59pm

When the traffic on the line stops, I would assume that signal persons and crossing keepers will still report for duty as normal. From what I am reading there will just be no scheduled services and the line will be open.

They are not going to save alot so.

Hungerford · 10-04-2010 1:18pm

No - the gatekeepers and the signallers won't be expected to report for duty. They will be made redundant or deployed.

The level crossings issue is deceptive - IE could remove a lot of that expense by automating them and controlling them from Mallow. The Dublin to Greystones section of the Dart line has more level crossings over a much shorter distance.

Hungerford · 10-04-2010 1:25pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

That bit is in surprisingly good nick considering the state of some other closed lines.

It was cleared relatively recently on the orders of the government to maintain the pretence that they might actually open it at some point.

Here's what a typical level crossing on the line looked like before that work began:

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/T/Tobercurry/slides/The%20levelcrossing%20at%20Tobercurry%20Station.html

Incidentally, has anyone else noticed how signalling equipment mysteriously vanishes when lines are under care and maintenance? Spooky.

Certainly, this colour light on the New Ross line isn't doing much protecting - someone appears to have accidently decapitated it!

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/N/New%20Ross/slides/DSC01448.html

dowlingm · 10-04-2010 1:31pm

In fairness, Hungerford, the cost of automating those Rosslare-Waterford LCs is not insubstantial. That's a six figure number each.

FlameoftheWest · 10-04-2010 2:16pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

That bit is in surprisingly good nick considering the state of some other closed lines.

But look at the curves! Like a narrow gauge.

Hungerford · 10-04-2010 2:19pm

dowlingm wrote: »

In fairness, Hungerford, the cost of automating those Rosslare-Waterford LCs is not insubstantial. That's a six figure number each.

My point would be that for a relatively insubstantial once-off outlay, you would permanently save the cost of employing 11 crossing keepers and you remove the restrictions they place on opening hours and Sunday operating.

If IE were clever, they would launch a programme of gradual modernisation of the lesser-used lines, starting off with small items such as crossings and working up to full signalling upgrades.

dowlingm · 10-04-2010 3:05pm

To be fair - they have been doing that. They only closed the last manual LC on the Dublin-Cork a year or two ago. Plenty of LCs left to auto on operational lines other than Rosslare-Waterford. What is needed is an injection of cash to bring in temporary contractors to do an "Ontrack 2010" upgrade programme - but cash is going to be scarce now Ireland is towing a sinking ship (Anglo Irish).

Also - keepers get paid from operating funding, LCs from capital. It sounds like a meaningless distinction but the LC cost gets paid now whereas the keeper redundancy payback is longer (albeit helped by less disruption due oversleeping and the ability to operate 24/7)

However, once again we need separation of Network from Train Operations. Make it part of NRA and their reduced yet still impressive budget and we'd have 75/90mph grade separated lines on routes like Mallow-Tralee, Kildare-Waterford and Portarlington-Galway, not 50mph lines with LCs and flat junctions.

Southsider1 · 12-04-2010 12:55pm

See! It's great to see that they're putting the money the save to good use:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/consultants-for-new-rail-lines-to-be-paid-836450000-2134302.html

Judgement Day · 12-04-2010 1:25pm

Southsider1 wrote: »

See! It's great to see that they're putting the money the save to good use:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/consultants-for-new-rail-lines-to-be-paid-836450000-2134302.html

Yeah, and I would say the €50k is only the cost of preparing the tender documents - the contract itself will probably be a seven figure sum.

Judgement Day · 12-04-2010 10:11pm

From the Save the Rosslare railway Facebook site:

'Irish Rail lodged their application to the National Transport Authority on March 26th. The NTA is presently considering this application. It is of huge importance that objections are lodged to this application. There is no formal process for public consultation however the NTA will accept submissions.

There is no charge for lodging an objection, it will be accepted in electronic form. Anyone can object to the proposal from within the country or outside. email your objections to info@nationaltransport.ie and mark them Rosslare Waterford Railway.

Play your part at home or abroad.'

Seems like a damn good idea to me and my submission is going in tomorrow.
__________________

Transportuser09 · 13-04-2010 12:04am

Judgement Day wrote: »

From the Save the Rosslare railway Facebook site:

'Irish Rail lodged their application to the National Transport Authority on March 26th. The NTA is presently considering this application. It is of huge importance that objections are lodged to this application. There is no formal process for public consultation however the NTA will accept submissions.

There is no charge for lodging an objection, it will be accepted in electronic form. Anyone can object to the proposal from within the country or outside. email your objections to info@nationaltransport.ie and mark them Rosslare Waterford Railway.

Play your part at home or abroad.'

Seems like a damn good idea to me and my submission is going in tomorrow.
__________________

Now that is a good idea.

dowlingm · 13-04-2010 3:18am

The problem being that the application is secret (ahem, "commercially sensitive") so it's hard to see the exact basis for IE's submission and thus critique it. In fact, when would anyone know about the NTA process to object - were IE obliged to advertise this application?

Southsider1 · 13-04-2010 1:14pm

dowlingm wrote: »

The problem being that the application is secret (ahem, "commercially sensitive") so it's hard to see the exact basis for IE's submission and thus critique it. In fact, when would anyone know about the NTA process to object - were IE obliged to advertise this application?

Your probably correct in what you say but how can it be classed as 'commercially sensitive'? They have no direct competition on any service...

Also, as an aside, I had a great chat with a CIE man on the train to Dublin this morning. I meet him quite regularly and he was telling me he's been offered early retirement. He was told he'd get around €160,000 in lump sum plus his pension. I asked him what he'd do when he retires 'cos he's still only in his 50s. He replied:"Ah, I'll be grand, sure they're going to take me back on a contract so, I'll actually get paid more than I get now - they just need to reduce the headcount!". C'mon, wtf is this all about? and they're wanting to lock up the bankers???

DWCommuter · 13-04-2010 1:31pm

Southsider1 wrote: »

Your probably correct in what you say but how can it be classed as 'commercially sensitive'? They have no direct competition on any service...

Also, as an aside, I had a great chat with a CIE man on the train to Dublin this morning. I meet him quite regularly and he was telling me he's been offered early retirement. He was told he'd get around €160,000 in lump sum plus his pension. I asked him what he'd do when he retires 'cos he's still only in his 50s. He replied:"Ah, I'll be grand, sure they're going to take me back on a contract so, I'll actually get paid more than I get now - they just need to reduce the headcount!". C'mon, wtf is this all about? and they're wanting to lock up the bankers???

This kind of carry on is endemic to the CIE group and the wider semi state sector. Its not about public transport. Its about suiting themselves. The commerce of the real world is alien to them.

Hungerford · 13-04-2010 2:19pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

'Irish Rail lodged their application to the National Transport Authority on March 26th. The NTA is presently considering this application. It is of huge importance that objections are lodged to this application. There is no formal process for public consultation however the NTA will accept submissions.

Now, I am seriously confused. They lodged the application several weeks before going public. That doesn't seem right or fair...

Our man in Havana · 13-04-2010 2:23pm

They are doing as they please. They answer to no-one.

dowlingm · 13-04-2010 11:55pm

re commercially sensitive - that's what Joe Ryan said when I raised this on the waterford rosslare fb page.

Judgement Day · 14-04-2010 10:58am

Well, the closure is finally attracting attention in the local newspapers and these extracts are from today's Enniscorthy Guardian - not yet online.
FF TD and Junior Minister Sean Connick - as I predicted - as turned out to be a waste of space! Bought and paid for by his recent elevation he is going to do nothing to rock the boat. Local readers will also be unsurprised by the total lack of comment from 'brain dead' FF TD John Browne. I have some more positive information to report which I will post later.

The latter piece will appeal to all you fans of CIE's unique understanding of mothballing aka 'care and maintenance'.

DWCommuter · 14-04-2010 11:21am

Oh the irony JD.:rolleyes:

A certain Service Planning Manager mentioned in the articles has a rather personal connection with the WRC.

I know the line isn't in a metroplis, but IE are screwing the South East without any accountability. Your little neglected railway is paying the price for the WRC. Literally. And the same faces are laughing at it.

This company needs to be torn apart at the seams. A lot of managers in there should be ashamed of themselves.

Judgement Day · 14-04-2010 11:24am

I had a long, and interesting, chat with someone at the National Transport Authority http://www.nationaltransport.ie/ today and he confirmed to me that they have a statutory role in the closure of the railway. He also confirmed that while they have NOT been seeking public opinions/submissions on the future of the railway they are happy to receive same and there is NO cut-off date for receipt of same. So now is the time for rational, well constructed proposals to be sent in and not a load of crap about how I love steam (heating) and my Grandad took me on the train in 1916. Please people, focus - rational proposals to the address on the website. Don't let the bastards (FF/Greens and CIE) grind you down!

Hungerford · 14-04-2010 11:31am

I also think that anyone writing to the NTA should state that the withdrawal of services is an effective closure given the company's approach to mothballed lines.

DWCommuter · 14-04-2010 12:23pm

From the Irish Times

Howlin says rail line closure part of 'vendetta'

CIARAN MURPHY

WEXFORD TD Brendan Howlin (Labour) has claimed the Government has a vendetta against the southeast region.
Mr Howlin made the remarks following the announcement of the closure of the Waterford-Rosslare rail line by Iarnród Éireann, as recommended in the McCarthy report. A closing date is expected to be announced by the company shortly.
Mr Howlin, who is Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the Dáil, said in a statement that an “admission” by Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey in the Sunday Tribune newspaper, that he was to “sacrifice the Waterford to Rosslare link in order to open rail lines elsewhere is the country, is nothing short of scandalous”.
“The notion that rail links in Co Wexford and the southeast, that have existed for decades, are to be plundered to provide services in other parts of the country is absolutely outrageous.
“There is absolutely no doubt that the services on the western rail corridor are badly needed, but that does not mean that communities in other parts of the country should be deprived as a result,” Mr Howlin said.
“The people of Co Wexford and of the southeast in general are now convinced that this Fianna Fáil/Green Government has a vendetta against us,” he added.

Howlin is starting to get it now.:D

Judgement Day · 14-04-2010 12:57pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

From the Irish Times

Howlin is starting to get it now.:D

Sadly Howlin is another useless knob, it's not as if he ever did anything for the railway when he was a minister.

DWCommuter · 14-04-2010 6:31pm

As a matter of interest what reasons did IE give for moving the station in Rosslare Europort in 2007?

Judgement Day · 14-04-2010 6:50pm

DW - like your new IE promotional video on the Facebook page - you should post it here. I understood that CIE/IE stated that the reason for moving the station was to facilitate port development - whatever that means? :rolleyes:

Southsider1 · 14-04-2010 6:58pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I understood that CIE/IE stated that the reason for moving the station was to facilitate port development - whatever that means? :rolleyes:

Well, it's grand and handy now.... Outside the port compound..... leaving the compoun and port free to be sold without a nasty great railway line running through it;)

Transportuser09 · 14-04-2010 7:10pm

Yeah imagine having a railway line going right into a port, it might provide a convenient connection to the ferries, we couldn't have that could we. One reason given by IÉ was that the line was dividing up the area used by lorries coming into the port, kind of ironic given that the rail operator owns the port yet it decides road traffic has priority.

DWCommuter · 14-04-2010 8:20pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

DW - like your new IE promotional video on the Facebook page - you should post it here. I understood that CIE/IE stated that the reason for moving the station was to facilitate port development - whatever that means? :rolleyes:

Sounds like a weak excuse. More to do with the ultimate effort in making the train/ferry connection so bad that they are futureproofing the excuses for the eventual closure of the line south of Gorey.

KC61 · 14-04-2010 8:26pm

The reason given was that the Gardai and Customs authorities wanted a secure port area from point of entry (on the southside of the old port connection) that was not possible to enter except by the authorised route. The railway line hindered that aspiration (given anyone could walk along it), whatever the rights or wrongs of the final decision.

DWCommuter · 14-04-2010 8:32pm

KC61 wrote: »

The reason given was that the Gardai and Customs authorities wanted a secure port area from point of entry (on the southside of the old port connection) that was not possible to enter except by the authorised route. The railway line hindered that aspiration (given anyone could walk along it), whatever the rights or wrongs of the final decision.

That sounds pretty weak as well.

Southsider1 · 14-04-2010 10:08pm

KC61 wrote: »

The reason given was that the Gardai and Customs authorities wanted a secure port area from point of entry (on the southside of the old port connection) that was not possible to enter except by the authorised route. The railway line hindered that aspiration (given anyone could walk along it), whatever the rights or wrongs of the final decision.

They never heard of gates then? :mad: Funny that they don't have the same issue at Holyhead port? Railway comes right into the terminal...

Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

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