Irish language?

unreggd · 28-03-2010 01:09AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ok, how about they fix the crap syllabus then make it optional ? Then we are both happy ?

Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make. The reason a lot of [not all] people don't like Irish is because its too hard the way its taught, and you do it for 12 years and end up with nothin! But I don't think the dislike just comes out of nowhere, it's trudging through the subject for years to no achievement.

So yes, the way forward IMO is fix the crappy syllabus, see how that goes, then make it optional.

I started learning French in 1st year, which was thought mainly as a spoken language, but unfortunately I'm more fluent in French than Irish.

Mathamatics is the father science, the science from which all other sciences originate. To even compare Maths to dead/useless languages like Irish or Awngi is equal to scientific blasphemy

But why do you think its ok to be forced to learn maths you know is useless/ not needed, but you're so strongly against Irish?

I can use the term useless if you would prefare that

As will I, for maths

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I am Irish and I love irish culture but as soon as language is introduced I just turn away

What do you qualify as Irish Culture? I dont understand how you can like a culture, but be so against it's language.

The main problem for me is the mandatory state that the language holds in school. Forcing people to learn something will never make them like it

Just like maths.

Then you have the attitude of the speakers of Irish. Such as my Irish teacher for example who insists on saying "Dia Duit" every time he meets me, despite me laying little hints that I don't like it by saying "Hello" back in a gruff manner

Then that's just you being ignorant, and discriminating against someone right to choose what language they speak, especially when its a mere greeting that you understand

Then we have place names, renaming parts of the country is bad enough such as Beal Átha Cliatha but when you start renaming the parts of other countries such as Nua Ebhrach then you know you have a problem

Irish isnt the only language to have a translation of cities, and its because Irish doesnt use all the letters of the English alphabeth

Then there is the feeling that you are learning the language of losers, the civilisation and people who where conquered. Personally I like to feel I'm on? the winning side, i.e english speaker

Clearly the words of someone "proud to be Irish"

Finally we have the way the language is promoted. Such as the very annoying Seachtain na Gaeilge, where my school put up ballons gave out stickers and tried to get every one to speak Irish in school for the week. I of course didn't wear the sticker and didn't speak Irish. Much to my Irish teachers annoyance.

Again, arrogant and ignorant. If you're so against it, then politely stay out of it, don't spitefully spoil it for everyone else

sron · 28-03-2010 01:24AM

unreggd wrote: »

Irish isnt the only language to have a translation of cities, and its because Irish doesnt use all the letters of the English alphabeth

Then explain that abomination of a word: várdrúis.
Though I support the language, whoever is in charge of constructing a modern vocabulary needs to be removed.

Iwasfrozen · 28-03-2010 01:43AM

unreggd wrote: »

Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make. The reason a lot of [not all] people don't like Irish is because its too hard the way its taught, and you do it for 12 years and end up with nothin! But I don't think the dislike just comes out of nowhere, it's trudging through the subject for years to no achievement.

So yes, the way forward IMO is fix the crappy syllabus, see how that goes, then make it optional.

I started learning French in 1st year, which was thought mainly as a spoken language, but unfortunately I'm more fluent in French than Irish.

As I am more fluent in Germen then Irish although I wouldn't say unfortunately as Germen is many time smore usefull.

But at least we are in agreement about it being made optional.

unreggd wrote: »

But why do you think its ok to be forced to learn maths you know is useless/ not needed, but you're so strongly against Irish?

Maths is not usless and is needed in all forms of life. As I said maths is the father of all sciences, the subject from which all other sciences come from.

How can you compare this with Irish ?

unreggd wrote: »

As will I, for maths

You are going to use the term useless instead of dead language for maths ?

unreggd wrote: »

What do you qualify as Irish Culture? I dont understand how you can like a culture, but be so against it's language.

Irish culture is what we the Irish people have made of it form the last four hundred years when we began speaking English. It is St. Patricks day, the Irish diaspora, the knights of St. Patrick, the Ancient Order of Hibernians

unreggd wrote: »

Just like maths.

Agreed but maths is in no danger of dying off so who cares if people like it or not ?

unreggd wrote: »

Then that's just you being ignorant, and discriminating against someone right to choose what language they speak, especially when its a mere greeting that you understand.

Same thing can be said of the Irish teacher, he is discriminating against my right to speak English, he understands "hello" in english and he is being ignorant because he keeps it up despite my obvious hatred of his language.

unreggd wrote: »

Irish isnt the only language to have a translation of cities, and its because Irish doesnt use all the letters of the English alphabeth

But why do they do it ? It is extermally annoying to have the name of your area, your home, the place where you have lived all your life suddenly changed by some smarmy "this is how you should say it" Irish speaker.

unreggd wrote: »

Clearly the words of someone "proud to be Irish"

I'm not proud to be Irish.

I said I love Irish culture, which I do. But I am not proud of this country or this people.

unreggd wrote: »

Again, arrogant and ignorant. If you're so against it, then politely stay out of it, don't spitefully spoil it for everyone else

How am I spoiling the fun for others ? I simply refuse to take any part in it.

Iwasfrozen · 28-03-2010 01:45AM

aDeener wrote: »

renaming??

99% of place names in ireland were "renamed" from the irish!

And now a small section of the Irish would like to name them back ? Simply proves my point.

bodice ripper · 28-03-2010 01:46AM

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh really?

But yet - it didn't help you understand that all languages take loan words from other languages. It reminds me of a post on here a few months back in a similar thread, where a user poked fun at the Irish language taking a loan word - calling a television "telefís". And judging by your post - I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't know where tele & vision come from.

And don't worry, checking wikipedia for it now - and posting about how you knew all along won't save face.

i know full well that english steals from everywhere - it is one of the reasons it is such a successful language. irish, on the other hand, seems to only really take from english. it is as if all irish speakers largely speak english. oh, wait....

yes I know where the word television comes from, i did classics in school and college, but thanks for assuming...

Evan93 · 28-03-2010 02:27AM

I spend 6 hours a week in Irish class. These 6 hours to me are a waste. I like the fact we have a language and it's part of our culture but really who cares? Times have changed since De Valera and his buddies outlined their plans for the teaching of Irish. We should be given the choice to study the language not have it forced upon us. I can see where every other subject I have will benefit me later in life, but Irish? I cannot see that benefiting me in any form. People can argue all day that maths and english should be optional also. However, maths and english can be used all over the world and essentially it is opening up peoples options. Irish can only be used in Ireland, and the people who use it are the people who like it, so let the people who like it choose it for themselves and people who do not, let them choose too.

We are allegedly living in a smart economy. Irish being compulsory in the education system is not so smart.

MoyVilla9 · 28-03-2010 02:32AM

Evan93 wrote: »

I spend 6 hours a week in Irish class. These 6 hours to me are a waste. I like the fact we have a language and it's part of our culture but really who cares? Times have changed since De Valera and his buddies outlined their plans for the teaching of Irish. We should be given the choice to study the language not have it forced upon us. I can see where every other subject I have will benefit me later in life, but Irish? I cannot see that benefiting me in any form. People can argue all day that maths and english should be optional also. However, maths and english can be used all over the world and essentially it is opening up peoples options. Irish can only be used in Ireland, and the people who use it are the people who like it, so let the people who like it choose it for themselves and people who do not, let them choose too.

We are allegedly living in a smart economy. Irish being compulsory in the education system is not so smart.

My thoughts exactly!

Naikon · 28-03-2010 02:37AM

It's dead already. Not one person I personally know speaks it fluently.

unreggd · 28-03-2010 03:09AM

Naikon wrote: »

It's dead already. Not one person I personally know speaks it fluently.

Congrats on knowing the whole population of Ireland, your facebook friends list must be huge!

InKonspikuou2 · 28-03-2010 03:47AM

I wasn't born here but yet i spoke Gaeilge before i spoke English thanks to my gaeilgoir father. spanish being my first language. One of the big shames of this gift is that i have lost more of this unique language while in the country of origin than i had in my previous years of living in Colombia and the United States. How has this happened? My friends have learned it for 16 years but yet can not speak the language or do not have any interest in trying to speak it. I just do not understand the whole animosity towards gaeilge. Yes it is a language which has not much basis outside Ireland but the same could be said for Swedish or Malay. Surely trying to preserve a bit of your heritage through ancesteral language is worth the effort whether you are proud of the current conditions of the country or not.

lugha · 28-03-2010 10:57AM

dlofnep wrote: »

I think you're forgetting another vital reason. The fact that people are left without the ability to speak Irish. That can have a huge impact on people. Studying a language for 13 years without being able to speak it is naturally going to irk people.

Detractors often seem to conveniently miss this. I'm not sure if you purposely did or not. But I would like you to comment on it.

I am not sure why you would think “detractors” as you call us, would want to purposefully miss this point? That has to do with how effective the teaching of Irish is, which is a somewhat different point. As it happens, I didn't have any objections to Irish being compulsory when I was in school, indeed I was quite the little republican then.

And I think the 13 years bit is overstated. It sounds appalling but closer examination tells a different tale. 8 of those years are in primary school, and I would suggest that an adult could go from scratch to the competence level of a child finishing primary school in the space of a few weeks. Thus you should only really expect a secondary school leaver to be a little more competent in Irish than in a language they would have studied for 5 years, which I think is pretty much the case.

owenc · 28-03-2010 11:00AM

unreggd wrote: »

Congrats on knowing the whole population of Ireland, your facebook friends list must be huge!

I dont know anyone that speaks it and id say very few speak it in ni at all and if they do its not very good... may couple thousand..

owenc · 28-03-2010 11:01AM

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

I wasn't born here but yet i spoke Gaeilge before i spoke English thanks to my gaeilgoir father. spanish being my first language. One of the big shames of this gift is that i have lost more of this unique language while in the country of origin than i had in my previous years of living in Colombia and the United States. How has this happened? My friends have learned it for 16 years but yet can not speak the language or do not have any interest in trying to speak it. I just do not understand the whole animosity towards gaeilge. Yes it is a language which has not much basis outside Ireland but the same could be said for Swedish or Malay. Surely trying to preserve a bit of your heritage through ancesteral language is worth the effort whether you are proud of the current conditions of the country or not.

it would still be useless only about 50,000 people or some small number like that speak it... and to me that is very few!

rich1874 · 28-03-2010 01:10PM

I hate people who openly speak fluent Irish but that's only because i'm madly jealous and wish that i spoke fluent irish. Then when there's a bunch of chinese people in the lab speaking chinese in a loud manner and secretly laughing at us because we don't understand what they're saying(i just know they're making fun of our inability to do martial arts), i could speak irish with my friend and give two fingers to the chinese, and the poles and ukrainians for that matter. Literally you know. put two fingers right in their faces. I'm not bitter.

eddyc · 28-03-2010 03:11PM

The compulsory learning of Irish feels like its based more idealism and nationalism than practicality. I have no problem with people learning it in schools if they choose to but mandatory Irish seems to be causing the language more harm than good. I personally dislike the language because I wasn't any good at it in school, I can speak German though. There seems then to be a problem in the way it's thought. Actually there seems to be a problem with learning languages but thats probably because we are an English speaking country.
Also on the nationalism thing, as there is no discernible practical purpose for learning Irish other than because your Irish. Being Irish these days doesn't necessarily mean that you are a white catholic who's ancestors once spoke Irish although I'm sure the majority of Irish people are. Cultures change and languages change over time. People are welcome to learn and speak Irish and I support the government funding it also but to be an Irish person shouldn't mean you are compelled to learn Irish in school.

Dostoevsky · 28-03-2010 04:20PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As I am more fluent in Germen then Irish although I wouldn't say unfortunately as Germen is many time smore usefull.... It is extermally annoying to have the name of your area, your home, the place where you have lived all your life suddenly changed by some smarmy "this is how you should say it" Irish speaker.

I sincerely hope your knowledge of "Germen" is substantially more proficient than is your knowledge of that "usefull" language, English.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Same thing can be said of the Irish teacher, he is discriminating against my right to speak English, he understands "hello" in english and he is being ignorant because he keeps it up despite my obvious hatred of his language.

You don't seem to have much love for English either. Maybe there's the rub: English is so hard that you're using Irish as the fallguy for the impending failure in the Leaving Certificate? (Should you not be studying for the Mocks?)

Dostoevsky · 28-03-2010 04:28PM

eddyc wrote: »

but to be an Irish person shouldn't mean you are compelled to learn Irish in school.

Or compelled to learn English or Maths. After all, it's not as if most people will use mathematical algorithms, Shakespearian poetry or the like after they sit their leaving certificate examinations. (fair points otherwise)

Iwasfrozen · 28-03-2010 04:38PM

Dostoevsky wrote: »

I sincerely hope your knowledge of "Germen" is substantially more proficient than is your knowledge of that "usefull" language, English.

Pointing out typos, the last desperate attempt to snatch victory from the jaws of impending defeat in an internet forum discussion.

Dostoevsky wrote: »

You don't seem to have much love for English either. Maybe there's the rub: English is so hard that you're using Irish as the fallguy for the impending failure in the Leaving Certificate? (Should you not be studying for the Mocks?)

Actually my mocks where over as and of the start or Febuary. And I did quite well in english, getting a 67% in my pre-exam.

I guess my material is so good I don't have to worry about spelling.

Dostoevsky · 28-03-2010 04:44PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I guess my material is so good I don't have to worry about spelling.

Clearly this is not the reality.

Iwasfrozen · 28-03-2010 04:46PM

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Clearly this is not the reality.

What ? Now you don't even make sense.

Unless you are my English teacher then you don't know what my exam material is like.

Now can we get back to the discussion at hand ?

eddyc · 28-03-2010 04:46PM

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Or compelled to learn English or Maths. After all, it's not as if most people will use mathematical algorithms, Shakespearian poetry or the like after they sit their leaving certificate examinations. (fair points otherwise)

Why do you think English and Maths are compulsory?

Dostoevsky · 28-03-2010 04:50PM

eddyc wrote: »

Why do you think English and Maths are compulsory?

Because the "English lobby" and "Maths lobby" wanted to force us to learn those useless subjects? (I could spell, write and calculate - necessary things for life - long before I reached the Leaving Certificate so it's a mystery to me why I was forced to learn useless things like English poetry and algebra at that stage)

Noreen1 · 28-03-2010 05:02PM

Rightly or wrongly, I've formed the opinion that Irish is disliked by some people because it is difficult to learn, and/or is considered a dead or dying language.

It seems to me that the language has been decimated by the fact that, using traditional teaching methods, it can be a very difficult language to learn.

Modern primary teaching methods, in my local school, at least, have proved very successful, and I haven't noticed any of the children who started school without any Irish displaying any dislike of the language - they seem to learn it quite easily.

So, based on my own experience, (I don't presume to know how effectively Irish is taught at Primary school, nationally) it is possible to teach Irish without having the students dislike it as a subject.
In fairness, this seems to change at Secondary school. My own children hate Irish grammar - and they are fluent speakers!:eek: They also hate Irish literature, or at least, the literature they are forced to learn at school. The same can be said for English literature, however.

On the other hand, both of them like German as a subject. Which makes me wonder whether the literature being taught is the problem? (Both are avid readers, in either Irish or English)

I've also noticed that all of my children seem to learn foreign languages easily. I have to presume that this is because they are bilingual from an early age, since their natural abilities are markedly different.
Where one is a straight A Maths/Science student, the other is severely dyslexic in Maths, and moderately dyslexic in reading .
Yet, both of them consistently achieve a B grade in Honours level German. I can't think of any reason for this except the fact that they are bilingual. If there is an educational expert on here who can come up with another explanation, I would be very interested in hearing it.

I believe that if Irish is made optional in schools, the vast majority of students will drop it like a hot brick, because of the difficulty involved in learning it as it is currently taught. If that happens, then scarce resources will be allocated elsewhere in schools, and those who want to learn Irish will no longer have the opportunity to do so. I think that would be a shame.
I also believe that if Secondary level Irish were taught as a spoken language, where children pick up the grammar naturally, and aren't given reams of literature to learn, then Irish could be very popular at secondary level, and lead to a very successful revival of the language.

Whether any of you think Irish is worth reviving is entirely up to you.

I don't think saying "It's of no benefit in my chosen career" really justifies dropping it, because both my daughters could say the same of maths. My dyslexic daughter could say Maths excludes her from many college courses.
My elder daughter is studying law at NUIG, and doesn't need Maths for her chosen profession, either (Though Maths was, of course, an entry requirement). I don't believe Maths shouldn't be compulsory because of this. I think Secondary school is about getting a broad education base from which to specialise - if three languages can be taught - successfully - instead of two, is that not a good thing?

Noreen

I.Am.A.Panda · 28-03-2010 05:33PM

Lol @ all the Modern Devs saying "It's our national identity!!!!!!"

Firstly, a lot of things make up our national identity, including:

- Alcoholism
- Irish dancing
- Fighting
- Smoking
- Leprechauns
- St.Patricks Day

Now, should the government fund programmes to nurture those? Of course not. People are picking out an aspect of "our" culture (By the way I disagree with the idea of the people as one entity) and saying it should be preserved, ignoring the other parts.

The idea people who speak Irish get a 10% mark bonus in state exams, get an automatic high mark in a compulsory subject versus the multitude who struggle with it, and get a general advanced start in society is BS to me. Seriously, the government made huge cuts the other departments, but the Ghaeltacht affairs, received an increase in the region of €2.5 million.

Seriously, every argument for Irish starts with "I'm an Irish speaker" or "I love Irish". This is basing the argument on personal opinion, rather than the facts. The facts are that the majority of students hate taking Irish, most people can't handle an Irish conversation after 13 years of forced education, English is a huge benefit to Ireland, and that basically, Irish is on the road to being dead, a road that no amount of government tampering can stop.

I.Am.A.Panda · 28-03-2010 05:39PM

aDeener wrote: »

renaming??

99% of place names in ireland were "renamed" from the irish!

And so doing the same thing all over again is justified how?

hooradiation · 28-03-2010 05:54PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

My elder daughter is studying law at NUIG, and doesn't need Maths for her chosen profession, either (Though Maths was, of course, an entry requirement). I don't believe Maths shouldn't be compulsory because of this. I think Secondary school is about getting a broad education base from which to specialise - if three languages can be taught - successfully - instead of two, is that not a good thing?

This is the dumbest thing.
"Hurr, my daughters claim they didn't need it"
Well in that case, lets drop one of the most important topics in school down to optional on your daughters say-so, but we mustn't drop Irish down because........ wait, why is that again?

Fucking Jesus......

eddyc · 28-03-2010 05:58PM

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Because the "English lobby" and "Maths lobby" wanted to force us to learn those useless subjects? (I could spell, write and calculate - necessary things for life - long before I reached the Leaving Certificate so it's a mystery to me why I was forced to learn useless things like English poetry and algebra at that stage)

Indeed the English and Maths syllabus will contain material that is useless to certain individuals and that is a problem. But you cannot deny the practicality in teaching reading writing and arithmetic which the subjects of English and Maths cover. People should definitely be exposed to Irish to see if they like it but it should be treated like any other language subject, if there is a demand to learn it, let it be thought. My personal opinion is that people like the idea of the language but 'on the ground' English is the native language of Ireland, as much as Irish ever was. Irish should be given some government help because it his historically significant to this land but learning it shouldn't be a national duty. It's a part of the old culture, our present culture is quite different, people are beginning to move beyond nationalism altogether and the idea of keeping up the old traditions to some people is uninteresting.

Paco Rodriguez · 28-03-2010 06:46PM

It should be left to whatever course it takes at this stage. its no use throwing money into trying to develop it. There are greater issues in life.

Noreen1 · 28-03-2010 07:01PM

hooradiation wrote: »

This is the dumbest thing.
"Hurr, my daughters claim they didn't need it"
Well in that case, lets drop one of the most important topics in school down to optional on your daughters say-so, but we mustn't drop Irish down because........ wait, why is that again?

Fucking Jesus......

Read my post again. "I don't believe Maths shouldn't be compulsory because of this. "

Noreen

PK2008 · 29-03-2010 09:30PM

Useless language, the sooner it dies out the better.

Irish language?

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