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Irish language?

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Comments

  • #272
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Yes but to compare an iternational language like english(or french or spanish or mandarin) to a language spoken by a small population is on a practical level comparing apples with oranges. If we never had english(or another international language) the cultural landscape would be the lesser for it. Our ability as a market would be seriously diminished. So cultural notions aside the fact we all speak an international language has been far more a help than a hindrance. it just happens to be english.

    I did not state that English is not important to us. But that if Irish is made optional for the leaving cert, there is a case for English also being made optional.

    The detractors will attempt to persuade us into thinking that the works of William Shakespeare and leaving cert English will have an adverse affect on our grasp of the English language, and our ability to succeed in life - but I stand before you as an example of someone who has not had leaving cert level English, but yet - I'm about to start a masters degree this september, and in my 4 years in college - I've yet to fail an exam.

    I've never stated that I feel strongly about Irish being compulsory for the leaving cert - but rather that students should have a choice on whether or not they wish to take Irish, English or both. I do feel that a new subject "Conversational Irish" should be compulsory. But that classically taught Irish could be made optional for the leaving cert, to relieve pressures from students.


  • #273
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Yes but to compare an iternational language like english(or french or spanish or mandarin) to a language spoken by a small population is on a practical level comparing apples with oranges. If we never had english(or another international language) the cultural landscape would be the lesser for it. Our ability as a market would be seriously diminished. So cultural notions aside the fact we all speak an international language has been far more a help than a hindrance. it just happens to be english.

    its fair enough learning to read and write english, but why the bull that goes along with it? no need whatsoever to be forced the nonsense i mentioned a few posts above. it hasnt helped me, and it hasnt helped many others either. surely if you are advocating for irish to be a choice subject then that aspect of english should be choice as well.


  • #274
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I did not state that English is not important to us. But that if Irish is made optional for the leaving cert, there is a case for English also being made optional.

    The detractors will attempt to persuade us into thinking that the works of William Shakespeare and leaving cert English will have an adverse affect on our grasp of the English language, and our ability to succeed in life - but I stand before you as an example of someone who has not had leaving cert level English, but yet - I'm about to start a masters degree this september, and in my 4 years in college - I've yet to fail an exam.

    I've never stated that I feel strongly about Irish being compulsory for the leaving cert - but rather that students should have a choice on whether or not they wish to take Irish, English or both. I do feel that a new subject "Conversational Irish" should be compulsory. But that classically taught Irish could be made optional for the leaving cert, to relieve pressures from students.

    could not agree much more with this


  • #275
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    English should be compulsory, for obvious reasons. A monoligual Irish person will find it very hard living in modern Ireland. However by passing foundation English this monolingual Irish speaker now has a small vocab in English that she can use when she needs.

    English should be compulsory up to the junior cert - after that, it's not required to get by in life. I've already explained that I do not have leaving cert level English, and that I've done quite well for myself in life.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You're right, Shakespear is of no use to you. But speaking English is.

    And I was able to speak English without ever learning Shakespeare. I studied honours English for the junior cert, and it has served me just fine in life. i've never stated that it shouldn't be compulsory - but that it there was a case for it being optional for the leaving cert.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    No, as english is the spoken language in the state and as such everbody should be able to speak it.

    And everybody is able to speak it - with or without the works of William Shakespeare.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Sorry to tell you but 100k is a pretty useless number for a language. I would classify any language with 100k bilingual speakers and <1k monoligual speakers dead/useless.

    What a tidy sum. How convenient for you. Unlucky for you, you're not a linguist and don't get to determine what is or what isn't a dead language. Once again, I've explained how that Irish is useful to me and many others. I've not disputed that you find it useless - but you seem to under the impression that your findings speak in behalf of everyone.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    No, because one must speak english in order to live a full life in this state. English is the most spoken language in the world

    And one can speak English at a reasonable level without ever sitting leaving cert English.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Irish is a dead/useless language.

    No, it is not. Continue to use emotive, and inaccurate adjectives - and you'll get nowhere.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Firstly: It is forced.

    Is English forced?
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Secoundly I asked why do you think that any adult should learn a dead/useless language ?

    Depends on what the language is. Luckily for you, Irish is neither dead nor useless.


  • #276
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Firstly - Irish is not useless.

    It pretty much is.
    Of the three core subjects (Irish, English and Maths) lacking an education in the latter two will make your life very difficult indeed. Not being able to speak or understand Irish doesn't seem to carry the same kind of penalty.

    As far as actual use goes, it's very niche.

    dlofnep wrote: »
    Secondly, Shakespeare is of no use or benefit to me. I've secured a place in a masters degree, without ever requireing Shakespare.

    Well done, have a lollipop.

    Though I'm sure a majority of people who've gone on to do a masters could say the same about Irish.

    So really, whats the point in even boasting about it?


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  • #277
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Well - How about you start using words that are more quantifiable rather than saying "many".

    In the absence of any credible statistics on the issue "many" is perfectly acceptable. I would like to think many most AH board users understand the term and as (unlike your good self) I didnt actually claim to enjoy majority support for my position so I dont feel an onus to find and select a set of figures based on some half @r$€;d survey to support it. (Besides this isint Wikipedia)


  • #278
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Well - in fairness, it's hard to find time outside of school to put into studying any language. I think many people genuinely would like to be able to speak the Irish language - but I think that needs to start in school, rather than expect an entire population to find the time outside of school.
    Maybe, but only if its of practical advantage. To live an entire lifetime in Ireland speaking english and only needing to speak it is what the majority of people do. Outside of a very small subset of people, try living an entire lifetime with only irish as your language. The gaelgoir chap who tried that recently found it almost impossible to live and work practically through Irish.


    Well, it's a private poll. They have the option of ticking whatever box they want and just moving on. I don't feel that people made their choice based on being bullied into it. I think you know that this is not the case.
    Actually I dont TBH. Its not a case of being directly bullied into it. Its far more subtle than that. One, for most adults it means little to them on a daily basis from a practical point of view. There is also the underlying idea of our heritage and pride in that. Irish would be part of that even if they never speak it. So its an easier step to click yes I think its a good thing, than to make the effort to say its not. The go with the flow notion. Kinda like if you put up a poll about say I dunno, art. Is art good? Most people have art as a background thing, not as a practical thing, so they'll click "ah yea sure art is great". Hey even the aforementioned shakespeare. Is he worthwhile? as a poll would likely give you a similar vote. Never underestimate the "dont really give a fcuk, but sure it must be good and I dont see the harm" factor in people.

    Evidence? Well lets take your figures at the higher end of the uptake of the language. Hey say 500,000 are all chatting away as Gaelige. Even then in a country of 4 odd millions it would be a minority actually engaging with the language. The 3.5 millions just dont care enough in their day to day lives. Thats what I mean and until that changes it will remain te minority language it is today.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #279
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    hooradiation wrote: »
    It pretty much is.

    I use it every day. I find it useful.
    hooradiation wrote: »
    Well done, have a lollipop.

    Though I'm sure a majority of people who've gone on to do a masters could say the same about Irish.

    So really, whats the point in even boasting about it?

    I'm not boasting about anything. I am responding to the argument that leaving cert English must remain compulsory. I've given a scenario of where I have survived just fine without it in an academic situation. I think it's a very valid point.


  • #280
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Evidence? Well lets take your figures at the higher end of the uptake of the language. Hey say 500,000 are all chatting away as Gaelige. Even then in a country of 4 odd millions it would be a minority actually engaging with the language. The 3.5 millions just dont care enough in their day to day lives. Thats what I mean and until that changes it will remain te minority language it is today.

    How many of those 3.5 million have the ability to speak it? I would love to be able to speak Spanish also - but unless I have the ability to do so, I cannot.

    If the majority of the population were fluent in Irish - I think you'd see a reasonable level of Irish use in society. Do you disagree? I don't think it's an issue of caring, I think it's an issue of ability.


  • #281
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    English should be compulsory up to the junior cert - after that, it's not required to get by in life. I've already explained that I do not have leaving cert level English, and that I've done quite well for myself in life.
    Junior Cert english means nothing, I passed my junior cert ordinary Irish despite not being able to tell the time in the dead/useless language.

    Do you really think we should have people passing ordinary level junior cert english without being able to tell the time ?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    And I was able to speak English without ever learning Shakespeare. I studied honours English for the junior cert, and it has served me just fine in life. i've never stated that it shouldn't be compulsory - but that it there was a case for it being optional for the leaving cert.
    So let me ask you somthing are you in favour of compulsory Irish or not ? Because every arguement you are bringing up for choice english can also be said of choice irish.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    And everybody is able to speak it - with or without the works of William Shakespeare.
    Again I'm not sure of you position.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    What a tidy sum. How convenient for you. Unlucky for you, you're not a linguist and don't get to determine what is or what isn't a dead language. Once again, I've explained how that Irish is useful to me and many others. I've not disputed that you find it useless - but you seem to under the impression that your findings speak in behalf of everyone.
    How do you know I'm not a linguist ? But anyway I'm not and those figures I used where aproximates.

    And my figures speak for no-one except themselves.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    And one can speak English at a reasonable level without ever sitting leaving cert English.
    I would not call one who cannot pass foundation level english a reasonable level.

    Now you will notice that I have failed to answer the last part of your post just as you failed to answer the last part of mine.


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  • #282
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Junior Cert english means nothing, I passed my junior cert ordinary Irish despite not being able to tell the time in the dead/useless language.

    If you want to maintain an element of reason within this debate, it would serve you well to stop continously trying to provoke Irish language enthusiasts by claiming that it's a dead language.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Do you really think we should have people passing ordinary level junior cert english without being able to tell the time ?

    No - but you seem to be under the impression that I'm satisfied with the current method of Irish language instruction. I'm not. And if you had been reading my thoughts on the issue - you'd understand that I propose a conversational Irish class as a means of addressing the low rates of fluency in Irish. I could go into the merits of immersion with regards to being proficient in speakign a language, but I've covered it on numerous occasions.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    So let me ask you somthing are you in favour of compulsory Irish or not ? Because every arguement you are bringing up for choice english can also be said of choice irish.

    My very first post in this thread addressed my thoughts on it.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65046986&postcount=11
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Again I'm not sure of you position.

    Well, now you are.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I would not call one who cannot pass foundation level english a reasonable level.

    The majority of students study either pass or honours level English for the leaving cert. I did not study leaving cert English - Would you saying my English is not to a reasonable level?
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Now you will notice that I have failed to answer the last part of your post just as you failed to answer the last part of mine.

    So now you know - Let's discuss it. But if you continue to try and turn the topic into an emotive one, by consistently referring it to a dead language - rather than a reasoned one, then I'm not interested in discussing it with you.


  • #283
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    If you want to maintain an element of reason within this debate, it would serve you well to stop continously trying to provoke Irish language enthusiasts by claiming that it's a dead language.
    In a way I am trying to provoke Irish language enthusiasts, but not in the way that you think.

    Wikipedia places Irish at 350,000 native speakers, now personally I think that this number is to big but howandever that places Irish in between "Awngi" a language spoken by the awi people living in central Gojjam in north western Ethiopia, and the "Komi" language, a language spoken by the Komi people in northeastern Russia.

    All three of these languages, I would consider dead/useless.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers
    dlofnep wrote: »
    No - but you seem to be under the impression that I'm satisfied with the current method of Irish language instruction. I'm not. And if you had been reading my thoughts on the issue - you'd understand that I propose a conversational Irish class as a means of addressing the low rates of fluency in Irish. I could go into the merits of immersion with regards to being proficient in speakign a language, but I've covered it on numerous occasions.
    And I would agree with you that conversational Irish should be taught in place of classical Irish however it should not be forced onto those who do not want it.

    Don't you see a problem when there are more native Awngi speakers then Irish speakers ? It would be more useful for me to learn "Awngi" !!

    dlofnep wrote: »
    My very first post in this thread addressed my thoughts on it.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65046986&postcount=11
    But you still want to force it onto those with no lust for it. And still every arguement you bring up for choice english can also be said of choice irish.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    The majority of students study either pass or honours level English for the leaving cert. I did not study leaving cert English - Would you saying my English is not to a reasonable level?
    I don't know what your English ability was like when you did your leaving cert, for all I know you could have learnt it since. However I have seen the foundation level english exam paper and I can safely say that anyone who fails foundation level english does not have a sufficient grasp of the language.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    So now you know - Let's discuss it. But if you continue to try and turn the topic into an emotive one, by consistently referring it to a dead language - rather than a reasoned one, then I'm not interested in discussing it with you.
    I'm not trying to this topic into an emotive one, but sooner or later you are going to have to accept that Irish is a useless language. Even more useless then "Awngi" !!


  • #284
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    dlofnep wrote: »
    How many of those 3.5 million have the ability to speak it? I would love to be able to speak Spanish also - but unless I have the ability to do so, I cannot.

    If the majority of the population were fluent in Irish - I think you'd see a reasonable level of Irish use in society. Do you disagree? I don't think it's an issue of caring, I think it's an issue of ability.
    Well obviously if we all spoke it it wouldnt be an issue. Thats a chicken egg argument.

    Ok the current population of Ireland is near as dammit to 4.5 million. So lets say 500,000 speak irish and that's one helluva stretch. Closer to 100,000 tops with a serious variability of actual fluency. So even at the daft higher figure 4 million have no ability to use it as a communication tool.

    Now according to the figures touted the majority of those support the language. Nearly all of those millions have gone through school exposed to the language, have all gov documents they deal with in the language as well as english, its a requirement of certain jobs to have it and it gives one an advantage in getting better marks in exams, have TV and radio stations given over to it etc. All at the same taxpayers expense. Yet 4 odd million people, the majority of the population of the country have no ability to speak it as an actual language( a cupla focal of pidgin irish doesnt count) .There's something missing here. How if the majority want it and have wanted it since the formation of the state, the same majority cant speak it, make no effort to speak it and give lip service to its preservation? Makes no sense. At all.

    OK look at this from the outside. Its like going to Madrid and finding the street signs in basque. Finding all kids must do basque as the national language of the nations culture. Seeing government documents in basque, finding they've changed names of places used for generations into basque and insist new housing estates must be in basque. Finding out you cant become a lawyer or Garda or civil servant without basque, watching basque TV being propped up by taxpayers money, etc the list is long. Then finding very very few people speak it outside of a region miles away, that very very few speak it in the non basque areas except to know how to ask to go to the loo and that if the only language you spoke was basque your life and career prospects would be minimal, even within the basque region. You would think the whole situation a bit mad ted. Rightfully so. You would find it even madder if you read a survey in the paper that showed the majority supported this. Thats essentially what you have going on here. You couldnt make this stuff up. Jonathon Swift would have had his work cut out to come up with a satire like this.

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You were able to learn the ability to speak it and fair play. Why dont the other millions? Its nice to have in the background, but its a badge to wear not a language to speak. For all the ticking of boxes, theyre still not learning it. I guarantee at least half, if not more of those who ticked yay for irish in this very poll, can speak feck all of it and more to the point, other than "supporting" it will never speak more than feck all of it. As I say dont underestimate the "meh I dont give a fcuk beyond the idea of it" easy option.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #285
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Wikipedia places Irish at 350,000 native speakers, now personally I think that this number is to big

    It is too big - I would say 150,000-200,000 competent Irish speakers would be more reasonable.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    but howandever that places Irish in between "Awngi" a language spoken by the awi people living in central Gojjam in north western Ethiopia, and the "Komi" language, a language spoken by the Komi people in northeastern Russia.

    It might be more useful to you if you lived in Ethopia. Do you? For the record, the population of Ethopia is 80 million.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And I would agree with you that conversational Irish should be taught in place of classical Irish however it should not be forced onto those who do not want it.

    I don't have an issue with the essence of your point - but I do have an issue with when you use the word forced - but only use in it terms of the Irish language. The Irish language is compulsory, it is not forced on the population of the Irish people. You may feel that it's forced on you - that's different.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Don't you see a problem when there are more native Awngi speakers then Irish speakers ? It would be more useful for me to learn "Awngi" !!

    No, I don't see it as a problem that there are more speakers of a minority language out of a population of 80 million than there is of Irish out of a population of 6 million.

    It would not be more useful for you to learn Awngi. Let's not be silly.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But you still want to force it onto those with no lust for it. And still every arguement you bring up for choice english can also be said of choice irish.

    No - I don't. My very first post, I stated that grammar/poetry and so forth could be optional for the leaving cert. I felt that conversational Irish should be compulsory, to allow for the population to become fluent. I think that's a very fair compromise. I feel that making Irish optional in it's current state, without a conversational class would seriously harm the language. If they come up with a conversational class that doesn't have any exams, and promotes purely conversational Irish - then I'd be all in favour of it being optional.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I don't know what your English ability was like when you did your leaving cert, for all I know you could have learnt it since.

    I don't have a leaving cert. I do have a college degree however.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    However I have seen the foundation level english exam paper and I can safely say that anyone who fails foundation level english does not have a sufficient grasp of the language.

    Well perhaps those who undergo foundation level English could have it as a compulsory subject. To be honest - I'm not pushed either way on English. If it remained compulsory, I wouldn't be bothered either way.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I'm not trying to this topic into an emotive one, but sooner or later you are going to have to accept that Irish is a useless language. Even more useless then "Awngi" !!

    It's kind of hard to accept it when I speak and use the language every day. I'd be contradicting myself if I said it was useless.


  • #286
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Wibbs, I'll get back to you on it - I'm seriously too tired to type anymore. :)


  • #287
    unreggd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,835 ✭✭✭unreggd


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But you agree that one should be forced to learn it ?
    Never said that. As was mentioned before, I said they should fix the crap syllabus first before they just make it optional right away.
    Yes it is compulsory, but it shouldn't be. That's what the dicussion is about
    Again, the syllabus needs to be sorted before makin it optional. Did it ever occur to you that you dislike Irish purely because you were never good at it? (as a result of the crap syllabus)

    Mathamatics is the most important subject in school, it is the father science from which all other sciences originate
    And who said everyone will persue a scientific career?
    Again, as said before, Maths you need for your career, you learn in college. And I was only interested in biology, and it had very little basis of maths
    Anyone who can even compare a dead language to mathematics doesn't even deserve an opinion in school curricula
    Irish is not dead. Dead means nobody speaks it anymore, and theres no records of it. Recently, an indigenous woman died, and she was the last known speaker of her tribal language. No records. THATS a dead language.
    And my opinion on maths is completely valid. Your point is Irish is useless and unwanted, well so is maths for just as many people

    Perhaps you should get a life ? One that doesn't involve spending a huge number of hours learning a dead language
    What, and you have got a life studyin maths all the time?


  • #288
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    unreggd wrote: »
    Never said that. As was mentioned before, I said they should fix the crap syllabus first before they just make it optional right away.
    Ok, how about they fix the crap syllabus then make it optional ? Then we are both happy ?
    unreggd wrote: »
    Again, the syllabus needs to be sorted before makin it optional. Did it ever occur to you that you dislike Irish purely because you were never good at it? (as a result of the crap syllabus)
    No, I dislike the language. No matter what way it is tought.
    unreggd wrote: »
    And who said everyone will persue a scientific career?
    Again, as said before, Maths you need for your career, you learn in college. And I was only interested in biology, and it had very little basis of maths
    Mathamatics is the father science, the science from which all other sciences originate. To even compare Maths to dead/useless languages like Irish or Awngi is equal to scientific blasphemy.
    unreggd wrote: »
    Irish is not dead. Dead means nobody speaks it anymore, and theres no records of it. Recently, an indigenous woman died, and she was the last known speaker of her tribal language. No records. THATS a dead language.
    I can use the term useless if you would prefare that.
    unreggd wrote: »
    And my opinion on maths is completely valid. Your point is Irish is useless and unwanted, well so is maths for just as many people.
    Se above it is the equivalente to scientific blasphemy to even begin to compare Maths with Irish or Awngi.


  • #289
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    And who said everyone will persue a scientific career?

    Isint education supposed to be about more than careers ?

    And even if one doesnt intend to become a scientist there are a lot of good reasons why they should learn about science.

    Just like even if one doesnt intend to become a cartographer there are a lot of good reasons why they should learn about Geography


  • #290
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    lugha wrote: »
    You should be careful not to make the (all too common) mistake of assuming that those who do not embrace Irish (the language and other cultural aspects) as you do, loathe Irish or Irishness.
    People define their Irishness in different ways, and compared to other aspects of Irish culture such as sport and music/dance, there is a hostility to the language from some which I think comes from its compulsion in schools.
    I have some reservations about the language, I think because of the over-zealousness of the way in which it was promoted by some. Although I have made a couple of efforts since school to learn Irish, but to no avail. The classes I took were supposed to be in spoken Irish (to get back to your question) but alas the tutor pretty much insisted on doing all the talking :(. So I decided after a few classes that I probably wasn't going to learn any more than I already knew. Certainly, I have pretty bad memories of trying to learn Irish grammar in school, I recall getting my homework returned with every page looking like it had the measles with all the red marks :o.

    Thank you very much for taking the time to respond.
    However, you misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that everyone who does not embrace the Irish language or culture loathes either Irishness, or the Irish language.

    In all honesty, I have never encountered anything other than admiration from people who cannot speak Irish who have overheard me using it - and have had complete strangers approach me to ask if I was speaking Irish, and congratulate me on it's use.(Embarrassing, TBH:o)

    However, having read this thread from the beginning, I did formulate the opinion, (possibly mistaken?) that some people have, at the very least, a vehement dislike of the language.

    Since speaking Irish is as natural to me as speaking English, I am sincerely interested in the cause of this dislike.


    I have witnessed intelligent people struggle to learn Irish, and fail. Irish grammar seems to be a huge stumbling block for many people.

    So, I'm curious! Is the cause of the dislike, (where it exists), as a result of the way it was taught, or is it a dislike/rejection of the language itself?
    ie. If people didn't have to learn reams of verbs, grammatical rules, prose and poetry, would it then become easier to learn Irish - and make learning Irish more acceptable to those who dislike Irish because they found it a difficult subject?

    My primary school children are taught Irish very differently to the teaching methods used when I was at school. Secondary school teaching does not seem to have changed as much.

    So, if we just taught children to speak Irish, initially through dance and mime for vocabulary purposes, then by encouraging them to speak Irish, rather than listening to someone else speak it, would it make learning Irish more acceptable/easier/both?

    Noreen


  • #291
    PK2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Make it optional I reckon, getting forced to learn it just makes kids resent it. Its not comparable to other subjects cos we all know full well we dont need Irish to get by. If we put as much effort into getting kids to learn foreign languages like German, French etc. I think this would be more beneficial to them and those who actually want to learn Irish will have a better experience rather than being distracted by those who hate it


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  • #292
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It is too big - I would say 150,000-200,000 competent Irish speakers would be more reasonable.
    Well they are adding communities in Canada, Australia and the US.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    It might be more useful to you if you lived in Ethopia. Do you? For the record, the population of Ethopia is 80 million.
    It's more useful to me because it means I can potentially talk to more people in Awngi then I can with Irish. Also the Awngi people are less likely to be bilingual meaning that by learning it I may now speak with approximately 300k more people.

    Whereas with Irish the vast majority of speakers are dual English/Irish speakers. Meaning that if I learn Irish I may now only speak to the <1k monolingual Irish speakers in the entire world.

    Oh by the way the population of the World is 6,811,000,000.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    I don't have an issue with the essence of your point - but I do have an issue with when you use the word forced - but only use in it terms of the Irish language. The Irish language is compulsory, it is not forced on the population of the Irish people. You may feel that it's forced on you - that's different.
    As a compulsory subject it is forced on every Leaving and Junior Cert student in the south.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, I don't see it as a problem that there are more speakers of a minority language out of a population of 80 million than there is of Irish out of a population of 6 million.
    You've compleatly lost me, what has the number of people in Ethopia got to do with my assertion that Awngi is a more important language then Irish.

    Altough to be fair that fact that it is even open to discussion that the language of a couple of primitive tribesmen is more important then Irish really shows that Irish has no place in the modern classroom.

    Be that classroom in Ireland or Ethopia.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    It would not be more useful for you to learn Awngi. Let's not be silly.
    It would allow me to open dialogue with a lot more people then Irish would. Who's being silly. You or I ?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    No - I don't. My very first post, I stated that grammar/poetry and so forth could be optional for the leaving cert. I felt that conversational Irish should be compulsory, to allow for the population to become fluent. I think that's a very fair compromise. I feel that making Irish optional in it's current state, without a conversational class would seriously harm the language. If they come up with a conversational class that doesn't have any exams, and promotes purely conversational Irish - then I'd be all in favour of it being optional.
    I like you idea to be honest, especially the no exam/no pressure part altough I just can't agree with so many hours being spent on this and so many tax euros going to paying teachers with no real purpose.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    I don't have a leaving cert. I do have a college degree however.
    Ah my mistake so.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    It's kind of hard to accept it when I speak and use the language every day. I'd be contradicting myself if I said it was useless.
    Believe me when I say you are in a very small minority of Irish speakers, nevermind those that use it everyday.

    Altough I have no problem with this, I have no problem with people speaking Indian, German, French etc. in the privacy of their own conversations.

    However I do have a problem with learning a language I have absolutely no need for because some guy with a very un-Irish name (De Valera) wrote that it was my native language in a book that governs me yet has I title I can't read.

    I also have a problem with millions of my tax euros going towards paying for Irish teachers and the translation of Irish documents that no one will ever read on a national and level, and since 2007 on an international level.

    But my biggest problem is with those who tell me that Irish in my "native language", my native language is the one that I said "mama" in. It is the language of my family, my friends and my area. It is not and will never be the language of a dead society, a dead era and a defeated civilisation.

    [/rant]


  • #293
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Thank you very much for taking the time to respond.
    However, you misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that everyone who does not embrace the Irish language or culture loathes either Irishness, or the Irish language.

    In all honesty, I have never encountered anything other than admiration from people who cannot speak Irish who have overheard me using it - and have had complete strangers approach me to ask if I was speaking Irish, and congratulate me on it's use.(Embarrassing, TBH:o)

    However, having read this thread from the beginning, I did formulate the opinion, (possibly mistaken?) that some people have, at the very least, a vehement dislike of the language.

    Since speaking Irish is as natural to me as speaking English, I am sincerely interested in the cause of this dislike.


    I have witnessed intelligent people struggle to learn Irish, and fail. Irish grammar seems to be a huge stumbling block for many people.

    So, I'm curious! Is the cause of the dislike, (where it exists), as a result of the way it was taught, or is it a dislike/rejection of the language itself?
    ie. If people didn't have to learn reams of verbs, grammatical rules, prose and poetry, would it then become easier to learn Irish - and make learning Irish more acceptable to those who dislike Irish because they found it a difficult subject?

    My primary school children are taught Irish very differently to the teaching methods used when I was at school. Secondary school teaching does not seem to have changed as much.

    So, if we just taught children to speak Irish, initially through dance and mime for vocabulary purposes, then by encouraging them to speak Irish, rather than listening to someone else speak it, would it make learning Irish more acceptable/easier/both?

    Noreen

    I'm going to be honest, I hate Irish. I am Irish and I love irish culture but as soon as language is introduced I just turn away.

    The main problem for me is the mandatory state that the language holds in school. Forcing people to learn something will never make them like it.

    I also don't like the money spent on it as said in my previous post millions of my tax payers money is going to fund something that I hate.

    Then you have the atitude of the speakers of Irish. Such as my Irish teacher for example who insistes on saying "Dia Duit" every time he meets me, despite me laying little hints that I don't like it by saying "Hello" back in a gruff manner.

    Then we have place names, renaming parts of the country is bad enough such as Beal Átha Cliatha but when you start renaming the parts of other countries such as Nua Ebhrach then you know you have a problem.

    Then there is the feeling that you are learning the lanuage of losers, the civilisation and people who where conquered. Personally I like to feel I'm not the winning side, i.e english speaker.

    Finally we have the way the language is promoted. Such as the very annoying Seachtain na Gaeilge, where my school put up ballons gave out stickers and tried to get every one to speak Irish in school for the week. I of course didn't wear the sticker and didn't speak Irish. Much to my Irish teachers annoyance.


  • #294
    migozarad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭migozarad


    In Israel,Hebrew was revitalised as the everyday language of the masses there within two generations of the establishment of that state.This exemplar illustrates that with the right amount of political will,Gaeilge can also be rejuvenated.The syllabus needs to be updated&the emphasis put on the "comhra" side of ar theanga naisiunta.Go raibh maith agaibh.

    Is mise le meas,

    Maidhc


  • #295
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    migozarad wrote: »
    In Israel,Hebrew was revitalised as the everyday language of the masses there within two generations of the establishment of that state.This exemplar illustrates that with the right amount of political will,Gaeilge can also be rejuvenated.The syllabus needs to be updated&the emphasis put on the "comhra" side of ar theanga naisiunta.Go raibh maith agaibh.

    Is mise le meas,

    Maidhc
    The reason Hebrew was brought in as the language of the Jewish state was due to the huge amount of immigrants comming in from all over the world (Aliyah) and the need to find a common language these people could speak.

    In Ireland we have no such problem, everybody speaks english so there is no need to seek a common language.

    Also I don't know what your hoping to show by ending your post in Irish but I've taken the liberty of using google translate to translate what you wrote in Irish into Hebrew, for no reason other then I think it's a cool thing to do.

    השפה הלאומית.

    בכבוד רב,

    -Maidhic.


  • #296
    lugha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    I did formulate the opinion, (possibly mistaken?) that some people have, at the very least, a vehement dislike of the language.

    Since speaking Irish is as natural to me as speaking English, I am sincerely interested in the cause of this dislike.
    I would suggest that there are two reasons why some people are hostile to the Irish language, more so that other elements of Irish culture.
    One as had already been mentioned, is that it is compulsory in school. And I think the comparisons with English or maths are spurious. The arguments for having these two subjects are different, even if you think they shouldn't be compulsory either.
    The other reason is the over zealous way in which supporters of the language try to promote it. John B. Keane was physically assaulted (leading I think to permanent hearing damage) for daring to suggest change to one such zealous thug (I think he was proposing that the compulsion in school be dropped, though he himself was an avid supporter of the language). I even heard the poet Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill describe the attitude of some in the movement to promote Irish as being "fascist like".
    There was also a whiff of this attitude in RTE in the past when they woudl insist (although I don't think they do so now) on translating people's names into Irish for their news bulletins. Surely it is nothing more than basic courtesy to respect whatever language any individual chooses for their name?


  • #297
    Michael B
    Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Michael B


    I wish we were more like the Welsh, they're extremley proud of their language.


  • #298
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Well they are adding communities in Canada, Australia and the US.

    Yeah - People often over-estimate the amount of Irish speakers. I like to be realistic. Over-compensating the amount of Irish speakers doesn't help the language - it just makes it look like it's in a better state than it is. I'd rather a real evaluation of the state of if, so we know how much work is needed to correct it.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It's more useful to me because it means I can potentially talk to more people in Awngi then I can with Irish. Also the Awngi people are less likely to be bilingual meaning that by learning it I may now speak with approximately 300k more people.

    Let's be honest - the chances of you ever having to use Awngi are zero. If you ever visit the Aran Islands, or any gaeltacht region - Irish would be very beneficial to you. Does that mean you wouldn't be able to get by with just English? Of course not - but they would respect you alot more for even trying.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Whereas with Irish the vast majority of speakers are dual English/Irish speakers. Meaning that if I learn Irish I may now only speak to the <1k monolingual Irish speakers in the entire world.

    All of the Irish speakers I talk to are bilingual, some of them are trilingual. But I choose to speak Irish to them. It's a conscious choice. If you wish to use English - more power to you. I'm not judging you.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    As a compulsory subject it is forced on every Leaving and Junior Cert student in the south.

    I disagree with this statement. I don't feel that every student feels that it is forced upon them. Forced implies that it is against their will. Can you state that every student learns Irish against their will? I don't think you can. I would estimate that most people just get on with it and aren't bothered either way.

    There is a big difference between something being forced, and something being compulsory.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You've compleatly lost me, what has the number of people in Ethopia got to do with my assertion that Awngi is a more important language then Irish.

    You are trying to make the claim that it would be more useful for you to learn Awngi. It wouldn't be. You do not live there, and I doubt you have any plans in the foreseeable future to go there.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Altough to be fair that fact that it is even open to discussion that the language of a couple of primitive tribesmen is more important then Irish really shows that Irish has no place in the modern classroom.

    You're really stretching with that. Because speakers of one minority language outnumber the speakers of another minority language, it somehow has no place in a modern classroom? Whether they are a tribe or not is not important. You're immediately relegating any minority language with less than 350,000 native speakers as not having a place in a modern classroom. The fact that Irish doesn't have a high number of speakers is more the reason to teach it.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It would allow me to open dialogue with a lot more people then Irish would. Who's being silly. You or I ?

    Right - Come back to me when you speak Awngi to someone.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I like you idea to be honest, especially the no exam/no pressure part altough I just can't agree with so many hours being spent on this and so many tax euros going to paying teachers with no real purpose.

    That's not for you to decide - that's for the Irish people to decide.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Believe me when I say you are in a very small minority of Irish speakers, nevermind those that use it everyday.

    A minority of Irish speakers - in the region of 150,000 people. I'm comfortable with that. You seem to think that I'm worried about over-compensating the amount of Irish speakers.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    However I do have a problem with learning a language I have absolutely no need for because some guy with a very un-Irish name (De Valera) wrote that it was my native language in a book that governs me yet has I title I can't read.

    That's a fair point. Which is why I'm not opposed to the idea of it being optional for the leaving cert, provided that conversation Irish is created as a subject. If it was made optional prior to a major overhaul of the curriculum, it would seriously harm the language.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I also have a problem with millions of my tax euros going towards paying for Irish teachers and the translation of Irish documents that no one will ever read on a national and level, and since 2007 on an international level.

    Sorry - but you don't pay millions in tax. You don't get to decide what your tax goes on. Every citizen of this country contributes to a wide array of things, many of which they might not want their tax going to. But that's a part of the society we live in, and many people are more than happy to contribute to the Irish curriculum.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But my biggest problem is with those who tell me that Irish in my "native language", my native language is the one that I said "mama" in. It is the language of my family, my friends and my area. It is not and will never be the language of a dead society, a dead era and a defeated civilisation.

    I'm not interested in what you consider to be your native language. If you consider it to be English, that's fine. I'm not here to dictate to you what you should feel or think.


  • #299
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    lugha wrote: »
    I would suggest that there are two reasons why some people are hostile to the Irish language, more so that other elements of Irish culture.
    One as had already been mentioned, is that it is compulsory in school. And I think the comparisons with English or maths are spurious. The arguments for having these two subjects are different, even if you think they shouldn't be compulsory either.
    The other reason is the over zealous way in which supporters of the language try to promote it. John B. Keane was physically assaulted (leading I think to permanent hearing damage) for daring to suggest change to one such zealous thug (I think he was proposing that the compulsion in school be dropped, though he himself was an avid supporter of the language). I even heard the poet Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill describe the attitude of some in the movement to promote Irish as being "fascist like".
    There was also a whiff of this attitude in RTE in the past when they woudl insist (although I don't think they do so now) on translating people's names into Irish for their news bulletins. Surely it is nothing more than basic courtesy to respect whatever language any individual chooses for their name?

    I think you're forgetting another vital reason. The fact that people are left without the ability to speak Irish. That can have a huge impact on people. Studying a language for 13 years without being able to speak it is naturally going to irk people.

    Detractors often seem to conveniently miss this. I'm not sure if you purposely did or not. But I would like you to comment on it.


  • #300
    PARKHEAD67
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭PARKHEAD67


    dr gonzo wrote: »
    (mods please move if this shouldnt be here)

    A mate(A boards moderator in fact) and i agree to disagree about the Irish language, he thinks its dead and we should move on which ill admit, irritates me a little because i think its something important to hang on to.

    I fully understand that its not widely spoken and therefore all the irish usage in our society is not for better comprehension but merely cultural. On top of that its rich of me to say its important when I dont even speak it but thats why i want to get the general consensus.

    Is it worth keeping or should we just be rid of it?
    Would be great if we kept it like the Italians,Spanish,Portuguese etc. all use their native tongue.Its too late now though.We've been Engerlised.:eek:


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  • #301
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I'm going to be honest, I hate Irish. I am Irish and I love irish culture but as soon as language is introduced I just turn away.

    The main problem for me is the mandatory state that the language holds in school. Forcing people to learn something will never make them like it.

    I also don't like the money spent on it as said in my previous post millions of my tax payers money is going to fund something that I hate.

    Then you have the atitude of the speakers of Irish. Such as my Irish teacher for example who insistes on saying "Dia Duit" every time he meets me, despite me laying little hints that I don't like it by saying "Hello" back in a gruff manner.

    Then we have place names, renaming parts of the country is bad enough such as Beal Átha Cliatha but when you start renaming the parts of other countries such as Nua Ebhrach then you know you have a problem.

    Then there is the feeling that you are learning the lanuage of losers, the civilisation and people who where conquered. Personally I like to feel I'm not the winning side, i.e english speaker.

    Finally we have the way the language is promoted. Such as the very annoying Seachtain na Gaeilge, where my school put up ballons gave out stickers and tried to get every one to speak Irish in school for the week. I of course didn't wear the sticker and didn't speak Irish. Much to my Irish teachers annoyance.

    renaming??

    99% of place names in ireland were "renamed" from the irish!


This discussion has been closed.
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