Irish language?

Rebelheart wrote: »

Hello? Hello? History lesson: the English are nothing but a bunch of upstart merchants.

The old Napoleonic nation of shopkeepers description? For someone who claims educated opinion, that's one helluva blunt and clumsy description. Not far off some english describing us as apes not so long ago. Equally daft. The list of contributions to culture and science by english types is a long one.

Mere merchants trying to ape the Normans, but, in Ireland anyway, treated with contempt by the Normans for their crude nouveau riche notions.

Actually its a little more complex than that and Im not sure what you mean by "in Ireland anyway". The Norman ruling class in england did treat the locals and their language with contempt. They invaded in 1066 and it wasnt until edward the third in the mid 14th century where an English king actually born and bred in the place replaced norman french as the official language of england(and that was due to fears his "own" people were about to revolt). It wasnt his first language either. Richard the lionheart, who would be claimed by many english people as one fo theirs couldnt speak a word of the language(and barely lived there at all).

In Ireland the normans were much more integrated from very early on. Marrying locals etc, even speaking the local language. A point noted by norman english types at the time. Much of the animosity in the early days anyway, wasnt so much between irish and english people as between hiberno norman and anglo norman. Not unlike the aggro between england and france at the time actually. Anglo normans and franco normans with the local french and english being dragged along for the ride. There it was even dafter as you had members of the same norman families either side of the channel coming to blows. In fact you could argue the normans of all hues were the shopkeeper nouveaus. The normans are more to blame for the traditional enmity between these islands than the local irish, english scots or welsh. Later generations just kept it going.

To be intellectual and opposed to this crowd of blood-thirsty, monastery-robbing, land-grabbing peasants that pass as the New English (i.e. the English, as they are now known) is a historically solid position in Ireland.

Again more complex than you're painting this. Lets look at the monastery robbing. Good old henry the eighth. A man with little to recommend him as a human being. Twat just about covers it. He was Welsh more than english. Considering the irish presence in wales over the millennia, he may well have had more irish than english in him. The english as a nation havent had a "truly english" monarch for a very very long time. Hell the current lot are german hapsburgs.

Intellectualism, English style, was attained through the barrel of many, many guns and marked by a willingness to break established norms of warfare and engage in mass murder such as the scorched earth policies of Humphrey Gilbert, Walter Devereaux and Richard Bingham. Nothing respectable, never mind intellectual, about that reality.

Again a very blunt reading of history. "Established norms" of warfare varied quite a bit. IE outside of storybooks there werent any. Look at the civil war in england itself. Look at the various wars europe wide. Scorched earth policies were not exactly thin on the ground. Neither was religious intolerance and massacres on the back of it. The french(again) were unbelievably brutal at the time of the reformation and after in their dealings with protestants. Even the pope at the time was "ah here lads calm the hell down". Even the boogie man cromwell was as bad or good as far as quarter given among his own as he was in ireland and arguably gave more quarter than his continental counterparts would have.

This stuff like the language really depends on the angle one comes at it. Like I was saying to dlofnep I've personally very very rarely heard Irish spoken outside my schooldays. In Irish speaking areas too(and in the scots hebridies ). Now I accept that because I dont speak the language Im much less likely to engage with it than someone like dlofnep who does. He's far more likely to hear it as he's far more likely to kickoff a convo in it in the first place. On that basis I would say that between the two extremes of how many actually speak it, the answer lays in the middle. Its not as low as I think it is or have experience of, but its equally not as high as dlofnep thinks it is or has experience of. IMH I'd reckon the figure for daily Irish speakers who would be approaching fluent is around the 60 k mark.

It is not a dead language on that basis, but I would argue its a long way from a living practical language as far as this island goes. In a way that doesnt matter so long as enough people speak it and have use for it. I doubt we'll ever see it being our actual first language. English* is just too strong internationally. In a 1000 years it may be Chinese being the strong one and still so long as say 100,000 are speaking Irish it;ll still be around.




*I still have the feeling that for many the love an promotion of the Irish language is more to do with the cultural baggage and dislike of english.