Irish language?

Wibbs · 26-03-2010 05:43PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

ok lets sort this out

Well sorted

We are insular celts (apart from anglo-saxons in England) that is people living in GB and Ireland

Even there its hard to pin down. It looks increasingly like the "celtic" Irish are no such thing(the saxons in England left more traces, than the celts in ireland). That the celtic culture "invaded" but on the back of few actual genetic Celts. We're of a different genetic line. It seems the mainland celtic culture proved very popular and easy to graft onto the existing culture. May have happened very very quickly too. Similar happened here with other examples. Christianity for one. Within a generation, or two, it pretty much swept through Ireland. Enough of its precepts fitted with the culture again and we became the light of the christian world. Kudos to us

. We went from being largely illiterate to incredibly literate within the same time. It seems to be in our nature and it seems it's infectious

. Look at the normans. Pretty soon they became "more irish than the irish themselves" which did not happen in Britain. No way. They kept very much apart from the locals there. Damn near until tudor times. AFAIR the first 3 or 4 "english" kings spoke only Norman french.

Chances are the language would show that too. I wonder has anyone looked at the language closely enough to trace its roots or to find any trace of the original language of the inhabitants of these islands? The ones who came here 12000 years ago. The Celtic languages in these islands are indo european languages. They're not "local". well they are now having been here for 2500 years

. I mean originally? How much of the really old bronze age language is still in Irish as an echo? I suppose comparing it to scots gaelic or manx wouldnt tell you much as we were back and forth to those places too often.

Chances are though, because we were isolated for so long(like Basque) there both must be a great enough age to Irish and probably still holds words or structures of an even older language.

Scots is a dialect of English and is also known as Lallans, due to the Ulster plantations Scots speakers moved to East Ulster and there own dialect is Ulster-Scots or Ullans (Ulster+Lallans = Ullans)

TBH it sounds to me like speaking english with the strongest ulster accent one can muster

Though again interesting to see what words and structures are older english. Do they show the vowel shift that happened in english for example? Would they say Bite as Beet? We have some Elizabethan words or use of words in Hiberno english. So you may hear older Dublin types use the word shore instead of drains. I think bowler for a dog is another one of those. Press instead of cupboard etc. Dunno if thats just in the pale though?

speedboatchase · 26-03-2010 05:52PM

I'm as patriotic as the next person but it serves no other essential functions and should be allowed fade away. It's is enforced to artificially keep it going for as long as possible and shouldn't in any way be compulsory. In my experience people that are finished their education belong in two camps, people like me who wish they had learned something else genuinely useful that they could apply in any every-day setting and those who thinks it's great and wished they were fluent. The fact is anyone can be fluent outside of school if they put their minds to it but they won't because there is literally NO BLOODY POINT!

Also the amount of public money wasted on translating signs and official documents in Irish, gnrrrrgh. And don't give me that "it's a beautiful language", not a million years imo

Krusader · 26-03-2010 05:56PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well sorted

Even there its hard to pin down. It looks increasingly like the "celtic" Irish are no such thing(the saxons in England left more traces, than the celts in ireland). That the celtic culture "invaded" but on the back of few actual genetic Celts. We're of a different genetic line.

When I say the Irish are Celtic, I mean Ibero-Celt(North Spain) most Irish have a genetic link with North Spain.
The Welsh would have came from Franco-Belgian region

Krusader · 26-03-2010 05:59PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

I'm as patriotic as the next person but it serves no other essential functions and should be allowed fade away. It's is enforced to artificially keep it going for as long as possible and shouldn't in any way be compulsory. In my experience people that are finished their education belong in two camps, people like me who wish they had learned something else genuinely useful that they could apply in any every-day setting and those who thinks it's great and wished they were fluent. The fact is anyone can be fluent outside of school if they put their minds to it but they won't because there is literally NO BLOODY POINT!

Also the amount of public money wasted on translating signs and official documents in Irish, gnrrrrgh. And don't give me that "it's a beautiful language", not a million years imo

How about theres 500,000 people who can speak it, it creates jobs every summer and contributes €50m evey year to the tax intake of this country

speedboatchase · 26-03-2010 06:08PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

How about theres 500,000 people who can speak it, it creates jobs every summer and contributes €50m evey year to the tax intake of this country

How many of these people learned it of their own accord and weren't forced to in school? :rolleyes: And how many of these 500,000 people have to speak the language or apply it in their work? How many jobs do Irish people lose out on when their Irish results force them to lose Learning Cert points and accept a undesired or lesser subject/qualification? And this govt pisses €50m up the wall every day of the week

dlofnep · 26-03-2010 06:11PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

How about theres 500,000 people who can speak it, it creates jobs every summer and contributes €50m evey year to the tax intake of this country

There's not 500,000 speakers if we must be honest. I'd estimate, probably closer to 100,000 speakers who can converse at a reasonable level.

There is no point in trying to persuade people who see no significance in the Irish language. We can all pull up facts and figures to convey different points - but at the end of the day, it's all highly subjective.

If someone doesn't see value in the Irish language, don't feel the need to have to defend it. For every detractor, you someone who's passionate about the language and it's promotion.

Krusader · 26-03-2010 06:16PM

When you have passion for something it's hard not to defend it to the dead and hope others will see what they are missing, a significant part of their culture in this case.

Lets hope this 20 year plan does well and the revival picks up a gear

dlofnep · 26-03-2010 06:16PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

How many of these people learned it of their own accord and weren't forced to in school? :rolleyes:

Nobody was forced to learn the Irish language at school. It was part of the curriculum, much like english and maths is - alongside history and geography. This "forced" argument is emotive and ends up going nowhere.

For for the purpose of your argument - I learned it of my own accord, and I was not anymore forced to learn the Irish language in school as I was forced to learn English, Science, Maths, History or Geography.

speedboatchase wrote: »

How many jobs do Irish people lose out on when their Irish results force them to lose Learning Cert points and accept a undesired or lesser subject/qualification?

I don't feel that people should be judged on any subject that's not relevant to their college course. I don't feel that points gained or lost for English has any relevance on someone who's going into IT.

speedboatchase · 26-03-2010 06:16PM

dlofnep wrote: »

There's not 500,000 speakers if we must be honest. I'd estimate, probably closer to 100,000 speakers who can converse at a reasonable level.

There is no point in trying to persuade people who see no significance in the Irish language. We can all pull up facts and figures to convey different points - but at the end of the day, it's all highly subjective.

If someone doesn't see value in the Irish language, don't feel the need to have to defend it. For every detractor, you someone who's passionate about the language and it's promotion.

Well you're right, it's very subjective and neither of us is going to convince the other more than likely. But as I've said, I have no problem with people learning Irish of their own accord and applying it in whatever way they want, I just don't see the benefit of it being a compulsory subject through the vast majority of a students education. Although you're right in saying there's point in trying to convince the other, I feel there is no point and only harm in maintaining the status quo in schools

dlofnep · 26-03-2010 06:17PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

When you have passion for something it's hard not to defend it to the dead and hope others will see what they are missing, a significant part of their culture in this case.

They won't see it. It's not a decision they made overnight. It's something that gradually built up over years. They are entitled to their views and if they don't like the language, don't worry about it. There are 5 people who do like it for every detractor. You've nothing to worry about.

speedboatchase · 26-03-2010 06:18PM

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't feel that people should be judged on any subject that's not relevant to their college course. I don't feel that points gained or lost for English has any relevance on someone who's going into IT.

They shouldn't but obviously they can be. Any subject you don't have an option to avoid in school is surely then forced upon you, no?

dlofnep · 26-03-2010 06:21PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

Well you're right, it's very subjective and neither of us is going to convince the other more than likely. But as I've said, I have no problem with people learning Irish of their own accord and applying it in whatever way they want, I just don't see the benefit of it being a compulsory subject through the vast majority of a students education. Although you're right in saying there's point in trying to convince the other, I feel there is no point and only harm in maintaining the status quo in schools

There might be a debate worth having in regards to compulsory subjects in school at leaving cert level - but I think that it shouldn't single out Irish. I feel that if Irish is made optional at leaving cert level - then English should be made optional also. Allow people the choice to choose their language.

Perhaps optional Irish for the leaving cert might even do the language some good. It's hard to say. I've personally proposed that we have a second Irish subject that deals solely with conversational Irish - and that that should be mandatory for the leaving cert, but that grammar/poetry and so forth could be an extra subject at leaving cert level, which would be entirely optional. This would take alot of pressure off students - but at the same time, allow them to actual develop real speaking ability.

Krusader · 26-03-2010 06:21PM

dlofnep wrote: »

They won't see it. It's not a decision they made overnight. It's something that gradually built up over years. They are entitled to their views and if they don't like the language, don't worry about it. There are 5 people who do like it for every detractor. You've nothing to worry about.

The thing is I was one of them, but I've seen the light :cool:

dlofnep · 26-03-2010 06:24PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

They shouldn't but obviously they can be. Any subject you don't have an option to avoid in school is surely then forced upon you, no?

No, it's not forced upon you. No more than English or maths are forced upon you. it just so happens to be a part of the school curriculum. You're not obliged to sit your leaving cert.

Perhaps a system could be devised where courses in college require certain scores from specific subjects to gain entry. But I think the idea of our schooling system is to try make you rounded as possible prior to going to college.

neil_hosey · 26-03-2010 06:28PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

They shouldn't but obviously they can be. Any subject you don't have an option to avoid in school is surely then forced upon you, no?

Force is a very strong word. Its a compulsary subject in secondary alon gwith english, PE and maths. Its a compulsary subject in primary along with all subjects..

In college there are many compulsary subjects. No point trying to make out that irish is forced on people.

We just happen to live in ireland, where irish has been spoken for the guts of 2000 years.

The government and promoters of the language want to preserve this part of our culture. as multiculturalism starts to take a hold on ireland (its a good thing), its important we keep as much as ours as we can.

The attitude of "meh! irish/insert anything here? too hard, im too lazy" bugs the shít out of me

speedboatchase · 26-03-2010 06:33PM

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not forced upon you. No more than English or maths are forced upon you. it just so happens to be a part of the school curriculum. You're not obliged to sit your leaving cert.

Perhaps a system could be devised where courses in college require certain scores from specific subjects to gain entry. But I think the idea of our schooling system is to try make you rounded as possible prior to going to college.

Ok well I'm going to assume you're not a computer program and realise that the majority of people that want an education want to complete the leaving cert. Compulsory subjects in a school curriculum are "forced" on people that want to complete their education because whilst they will later on be able to choose and drop certain subjects, some, including Irish will always remain. Force may be a strong word but the end result remains the same

As far as being as rounded as possible, I think once students hit fifth year and have a grasp as what course or vocation they want to pursue they should be allowed choose every single subject they want to be taught. In this sense they will in the best possible position to have a good grasp of their possible career, and a greater chance of reaching the necessary points. In this sense they will have a well-rounded skillset, rather than simply having learnt a well-rounded amount of information

ps. can't reply cos it's quittin' time :P

Herb Powell · 26-03-2010 06:34PM

dlofnep wrote: »

These types of polls have been run in many shapes and forms.

I'm a big fan of the Irish language, and took it upon myself 3 years ago to learn it - and have done so to a decent level at this point. (Although there is always more I can learn).

I feel the education needs to be revamped with more focus on spoken Irish - with spoken Irish being a unique subject, and grammar being made optional at leaving cert level, with conversational Irish remaining as part of the curriculum. This takes less pressure off students, and helps develop grá don teanga and give students the ability to speak the language. Teach it as a language, not as a subject.

In school, grammar is fecked out the window. But I agree completely. I like Irish, but that "prós" sh!te needs to be abandoned.

26-03-2010 07:36PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

How many of these people learned it of their own accord and weren't forced to in school?

Me for one, OK still crap at it but that's not the point.

Rebelheart · 26-03-2010 08:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Put it another way, if we never spoke or wrote in english(or french or a widely used language) Irish writers would be pretty unknown outside of this country. Ditto for a lot of other cultural expressions of our heritage.

Yes, and the entire purpose of the existence of the Irish people is to be "known outside of this country"?

Yes, the same shíte mentality which was bewailing the Irish people for playing and supporting the GAA on a thread last year: if the GAA didn't exist, the "thinking" ran, all of the Irish would put their money and support into "known" sports and Irish people would therefore get international acknowledgement.

Jesus Christ almighty - the depth of your mentality, of this mentality. Pathetic. This insecurity and need for approval is pitiful in adults.

Rebelheart · 26-03-2010 08:53PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

They shouldn't but obviously they can be. Any subject you don't have an option to avoid in school is surely then forced upon you, no?

As long as you are including those grade 1 pointless wasters like Wordsworth, Kavanagh, Shakespeare, Dickenson and the rest who have been of absolutely no use to most people in their lives - but all of whom we were forced - yes, forced - to study. I don't hear the anti-Irish brigade giving out about these stalwarts of the English language syllabus being rammed down the throats of Irish children. Oh no.

And don't get me started about Pythagoras and the rest of those eejits that pass as the mathematics syllabus that is forced down our throats. Oh, do we suddenly not like this emotive language, emotive language which is perfectly OK when talking about the teaching of Irish?

The hypocrisy of the anti-Irish lobby here on this "forcing" issue is stomach-turning.

lugha · 26-03-2010 09:12PM

You cannot compare the compulsion to study English and maths with that to study Irish. The former is done for educational reasons, the latter, for essentially cultural ones.
There is a wide perception, rightly or wrongly, that Irish is being forced on people in school, and this is doing its promotion considerable damage IMO. The Irish never take to kindly to being forced to do anything. Dropping the compulsion could be one of the best things you could do if you want to promote the language.

Rebelheart · 26-03-2010 09:24PM

lugha wrote: »

You cannot compare the compulsion to study English and maths with that to study Irish. The former is done for educational reasons, the latter, for essentially cultural ones.

Absolute horseshíte of the finest quality. Thank you for bearing witness to the above mentioned hypocrisy. It is absolutely fine to force the (utterly pointless) English and Maths curricula down the throats of Irish children, but not acceptable to force the Irish curriculum down the throats of Irish children. "Education" my eye. It's simply your favoured crowd of cultural colonialists dressed up as "education" by you here.

lugha wrote: »

The Irish never take to kindly to being forced to do anything. Dropping the compulsion could be one of the best things you could do if you want to promote the language.

More delusional parochial provincial crap. As a general rule, the Irish people are a walkover. They are not - definitely not - the French when it comes to making a stand. The radicals in every generation of Irish people were lonely figures, not leadership figures. The Daniel O'Connells of Irish society, not the Peadar O'Donnells, are the normal political preference. The mass of Irish people are backward (i.e anglocentric), profoundly conservative, and tribal in their political inclinations.

lugha · 26-03-2010 09:35PM

Rebelheart wrote: »

Absolute horseshíte of the finest quality. Thank you for bearing witness to the above mentioned hypocrisy. It is absolutely fine to force the (utterly pointless) English and Maths curricula down the throats of Irish children, but not acceptable to force the Irish curriculum down the throats of Irish children. "Education" my eye. It's simply your favoured crowd of cultural colonialists dressed up as "education" by you here.

But Rebel, if we hadn't forced English down your throat then you wouldn't be able to be the Tippex of boards, correcting all our atrocious grammar! :P

English is our language (whatever about first or second or official yah de yah) and studying the language of your country is imminently sensible to develop your communication skills. Studying mathematics enhances your numerical and analytical skills. The primary effect of having Irish compulsory in schools in to instill an attitude of at best dislike, and at worst hostility to the language. The promoters of Irish are their own worst enemies.

owenc · 26-03-2010 09:43PM

lugha wrote: »

You cannot compare the compulsion to study English and maths with that to study Irish. The former is done for educational reasons, the latter, for essentially cultural ones.
There is a wide perception, rightly or wrongly, that Irish is being forced on people in school, and this is doing its promotion considerable damage IMO. The Irish never take to kindly to being forced to do anything. Dropping the compulsion could be one of the best things you could do if you want to promote the language.

well if this island as a whole hasnt spoken irish for hundreds of years whats the point in forcing it down peoples throat now! nothing!! people are just doing it to rebel against others... :rolleyes:

Rebelheart · 26-03-2010 09:50PM

lugha wrote: »

But Rebel, if we hadn't forced English down your throat then you wouldn't be able to be the Tippex of boards, correcting all our atrocious grammar! :P

Amazing. It just beggars belief that somebody could know more than a single language, doesn't it, Lugha?

lugha wrote: »

English is our language (whatever about first or second or official yah de yah) and studying the language of your country is imminently sensible to develop your communication skills.

More undereducated drivel. There is no rational reason why Irish children should have the English curriculum forced down their throats - sonnets, poetry and stories that are of absolutely no use to the vast majority of Irish people but which we are forced to learn - how many people here have had use for a "stanza", to take one of numerous examples, since they escaped from secondary school?

It's long past the time that the assorted rabble of mentally unstable persons who pass as poets and writers of the English language were not rammed down people's throats in this country. Your position is utterly indefensible.

lugha wrote: »

Studying mathematics enhances your numerical and analytical skills.

More undereducated bollocksology. How many people here have used an algebraic equation, calculus, trigonometry or the rest of that nonsense since they left school? Yet, it, too, was (and is) forced down out collective throats. You, like so many, are evidently unaware of the vast difference between being able to calculate sums quickly, which is very very useful, and having to sit the subject mathematics, which is pointless or, at best, very very close to pointless.

unreggd · 26-03-2010 10:13PM

Rebelheart wrote: »

How many people here have used an algebraic equation, calculus, trigonometry or the rest of that nonsense since they left school? Yet, it, too, was (and is) forced down out collective throats. You, like so many, are evidently unaware of the vast difference between being able to calculate sums quickly, which is very very useful, and having to sit the subject mathematics, which is pointless or, at best, very very close to pointless.

Thats what I always say! But noone seems to want to get rid of maths / make it optional, that's just crazy talk :rolleyes:
It's equally uninteresting, and if anything, way more pointless than Irish

I think every subject taught in Ireland is done arseways, too much emphasis on irrelevant parts, not enough on the important ones

Like geography! You don't necessarily know where everywhere is on a map, capital cities etc, but you know everything you possibly could about volcanoes! FFS!

lugha · 26-03-2010 10:15PM

Rebelheart wrote: »

More undereducated drivel. There is no … rant, rant, …

Learning the language of your country (i.e. English in Ireland) and mathematics extensively in school is a widespread practice and is not unique to Ireland. Perhaps you think all the educationalists of the world have got it wrong and you have got it right, but I guess your get comfy after a while standing alone.

Perhaps we should put a stop to teaching history as well? Think what a angry, angry boy you wouldn’t be if we had done. :pac:

Rebelheart wrote: »

How many people here have used an algebraic equation, calculus, .. rant, rant.

As opposed to Peig which you no doubt use daily in your life

. Studying mathematics does develop peoples problem solving skills. If you had worked a bit harder at this you might not have suggested 1,000,000 protestants taking a ferry to Scotland might be a “solution” to the problems in NI.

irishdub14 · 26-03-2010 10:22PM

But maths isnt pointless, yes i know we all dont use trigonometry and algebra (well most of us), but it strengthens and increases brain power and helps improve our minds. Just like in English, why do we learn shakespere? It helps improve our understanding of the language, structure and emotions....!

Personally I think Irish should be simply optional in school, so the students who do it will shine and progress and the people who dont wont be spreading all this negative attitude towards the language.

dlofnep · 26-03-2010 10:29PM

lugha wrote: »

You cannot compare the compulsion to study English and maths with that to study Irish.

Of course you can. English beyond junior cert level serves absolutely no purpose. I've got on just fine without it. I've also got on fine without leaving cert level maths. I'm in my final year in an honours degree course in the field of IT, and haven't failed an exam in the 4 years.

So, we can compare whatever we want. Especially when our own experiences in life state anything but what you're suggesting.

If you want Irish to be optional for leaving cert level - That's fine, there's an argument to be made. But if you reject the idea that there's an argument to be made for the idea of optional English at leaving cert level - you're a hypocrite.

lugha wrote: »

The former is done for educational reasons, the latter, for essentially cultural ones.

Quoting Shakespeare has absolutely nothing to do with education. It's as much cultural as Peig Sayers is.

lugha wrote: »

There is a wide perception, rightly or wrongly, that Irish is being forced on people in school, and this is doing its promotion considerable damage IMO.

A wide perception by whom? The Irish language is not being forced on anyone in school no more than English or Maths is. It is a part of the curriculum. I would estimate that the majority of the people do NOT feel that it is forced upon them - and judging by this poll alone, most people would agree that it is an accepted part of our education.

Please don't try make the case that those views are from anything other than a minority.

lugha wrote: »

The Irish never take to kindly to being forced to do anything. Dropping the compulsion could be one of the best things you could do if you want to promote the language.

There are a vast array of things we can do to promote the language. Focusing more on conversational Irish is the most important. Making it optional at leaving cert level is worth discussing - but something tells me that you're not talking about leaving cert Irish.

Rebelheart · 26-03-2010 10:32PM

lugha wrote: »

Learning the language of your country (i.e. English in Ireland)

Irish is the language of my country. English is, surprise surprise, the language of England. Radical, eh? Nice try at rewriting thousands of years of Irish history to suit your British nationalist outlook, by the way.

lugha wrote: »

[blah, blah blah]... and mathematics extensively in school is a widespread practice and is not unique to Ireland. Perhaps you think all the educationalists of the world have got it wrong and you have got it right, but I guess your get comfy after a while standing alone.

Lugha, you are:

1) in no position to give a summation of the consensus among "educationalists of the world" on this or any issue.

2) You have still failed to justify why Irish children should be forced to learn the works of the wide range of dysfunctional people who pass as poets and authors in the English language. How does being forced to know Sonnet 112 (that's Shakespeare, by the way), as is the current situation, benefit the average Irish student? Or anything else from the emotionally unstable people who get on the English language curriculum in Irish schools.

lugha wrote: »

Perhaps we should put a stop to teaching history as well? Think what a angry, angry boy you wouldn’t be if we had done. :pac:

The basics: History, unlike English or Mathematics, is not a compulsory subject for the Leaving Cert in Irish schools. It is optional and, therefore, unlike your beloved English poetry and literature, not rammed down students' throats.

lugha wrote: »

Studying mathematics does develop peoples problem solving skills.

Em, studying After Hours (and most things in the world) also develops problem-solving skills. You'll have to do much better.

Irish language?

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