Kishoge station: A white elephant never opened

Lifelike · 06-03-2010 3:01am #1

CIE have wasted a lot of money over the years, but now they have announced that the brand new Kishoge station near Lucan will not open because no construction has happened in the area.

I think that there are plenty of people living nearby to justify the opening of the station, but ah well

Opinions?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/travel-chaos-looms-as-bus-and-rail-services-face-chop-1997699.html

Rud · 06-03-2010 3:37am

that is crazy.good old IE making a right mess of things yet again

Irish and Proud · 06-03-2010 12:03pm

Rud wrote: »

that is crazy.good old IE making a right mess of things yet again

Wouldn't agree with that - IE were doing the job right in that they foresaw a demand and provided for it while they were in the midst of a major construction project (IMO, the station would be much cheaper to build while contractors, machinery etc were already available as a result of the Kildare Route Project). Also, the Kildare Route would not have to be disrupted again.

I blame the people who created the economic mess that we're in - the people who led us to believe that there was a huge demand for housing etc. IE are not the economists, so they are not to blame IMO.

Regards!

Lifelike · 06-03-2010 1:12pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with that - IE were doing the job right in that they foresaw a demand and provided for it while they were in the midst of a major construction project (IMO, the station would be much cheaper to build while contractors, machinery etc were already available as a result of the Kildare Route Project). Also, the Kildare Route would not have to be disrupted again.

I blame the people who created the economic mess that we're in - the people who led us to believe that there was a huge demand for housing etc. IE are not the economists, so they are not to blame IMO.

Regards!

The problem is there has been no construction going on for the past, let's say, 18 months, but CIE continued to construct the station right up until the damn thing was completed.

Now the whole thing is just going to fall apart :mad:

Run_to_da_hills · 06-03-2010 1:22pm

Lifelike wrote: »

The problem is there has been no construction going on for the past, let's say, 18 months, but CIE continued to construct the station right up until the damn thing was completed.

Now the whole thing is just going to fall apart :mad:

I can see their point, an unfinished railway station would be an eyesore and a liability. At least it can now be motballed.

DWCommuter · 06-03-2010 2:24pm

I can't find the post where I predicted this station would never open. But lets be honest with ourselves, before a foundation was dug on it, the arse had fallen out of the construction industry. Assuming that contracts were signed well in advance of the collpase, it was going to be built regardless. Now we face the cost of maintaining it, because if we don't it will become derelict very quickly.

This debacle is not an IE/CIE thing directly. Its more a victim of the blind acceptance that the property boom would go forever. That blindness can be shared by many.

dowlingm · 06-03-2010 2:24pm

I agree - a half-finished station is no incentive for further development once property prices are adjusted back to reality and Ireland does an Iceland and stages a popular revolt against NAMA

JHMEG · 06-03-2010 2:25pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I can see their point, an unfinished railway station would be an eyesore and a liability. At least it can now be motballed.

Probably had the construction contract signed more like.

Is Adamstown station getting much use? Considering Adamstown itself has been partially still-born (a lot if it is empty), the station isn't within walking distance for a lot of Adamstown, and it serves the wrong Dublin station...

Ham'nd'egger · 06-03-2010 2:32pm

You will find that a station like Kishogue will most likely be funded with some level of developer levies when/if there is real estate build around the area.

unkel · 06-03-2010 3:07pm

That's interesting

Development in the area hasn't happened because it has been in the planning phase. So that argument doesn't cut the mustard

Planning permission has just been granted (a few weeks ago iirc) for 1000 homes plus plenty of office space right beside Kishoge station. Condition of the permission was obviously that the train station would be open...

Not that anybody is going to build anything anywhere soon anyway

And as JHMEG said, the Kildare railway goes into Heuston, which is no good to most people.

JHMEG wrote: »

Is Adamstown station getting much use?

I doubt it. And Fonthill has been open what, a year now? And the carpark is always empty.

Sponge Bob · 06-03-2010 4:45pm

Dudes.

Is the station NOT THERE because of some stillborn SDZ...like Hansfield on the Navan

Line and Adamstown on the Limerick Line, related to like Clonburris SDZ that did get designated ?? but has not gone much further through planning and certainly not to construction.

I feel that it is a bit unfair to bosh IE over the head about this one. The SDZ is approved making all that lovely development land available for our wonderful builders to build on and there is massive demand out there is there not ???

In the case of Hansfield they built the platforms only which is probably what they should have done with Kishogue ....all with the benefit of hindsight of course.

jimmycrackcorm · 06-03-2010 5:29pm

Lifelike wrote: »

I think that there are plenty of people living nearby to justify the opening of the station, but ah well

Opinions?

There are literally hundreds of houses within 5-10 minutes walk from this station including my own so it beggars belief that this station which is practically finished will not open.

However I've used Adamsown station also on occasion and it's very ghostly despite how many houses / apartments are close at hand...

Lifelike · 06-03-2010 5:51pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There are literally hundreds of houses within 5-10 minutes walk from this station including my own so it beggars belief that this station which is practically finished will not open.

However I've used Adamsown station also on occasion and it's very ghostly despite how many houses / apartments are close at hand...

I guess it's the lack of integration that's stopping people from commuting in by train. People want to get to places like Grafton Street and Stephen's Green, although they will be served when (or should I say, if) the Interconnector opens.

Kishoge station will be in a right state by then unless it's maintained

Carawaystick · 06-03-2010 8:32pm

how would it cost anything to open the station if it was unstaffed like Broombridge?
and aren't some of the stations in East Cork unstaffed also?

Lifelike · 06-03-2010 9:18pm

Here are two pictures of the station:

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1000&d=1242145809

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3042/2698565200_82eba64728.jpg?v=0

unkel · 06-03-2010 11:19pm

They are old pictures. The Kishoge railway station has been pretty much completed for nearly a year now (except car park, etc.). From where I'm typing now, I can see it when I stand up

It's about 200-300m from my home as the crow flies...

kc56 · 07-03-2010 1:25am

Apart from the decision not to open Kishogue station, at the moment it cannot open!

Kishogue only has 3 platforms with none on the down-fast line. Until the KRP is completed it cannot open. One major part of the KRP remains which is the relaying of the two down tracks. As the down-slow will be out of use from time to time, outbound trains will not be able to stop. This work will not be completed until later this year.

Victor · 07-03-2010 10:06am

Carawaystick wrote: »

how would it cost anything to open the station if it was unstaffed like Broombridge?

Then the station buildings would end up being trashed and people just wouldn't pay the fare.

In fairness, if you get a bus and rail ticket, you can use the 151 (very good service on uncongested roads) to access Adamstown or cycle / drive to Adamstown or Clondalkin Fonthill. there is no car park at Kishoge.

One problem I do see is how passengers are meant to get from the west side of the Outer Ring Road to the east side with a Jersey Barrier in the way. attachment.php?attachmentid=835&d=1226780066

attachment.php?attachmentid=835&d=1226780066

corktina · 07-03-2010 2:07pm

thx 4 pics..i see lots of fields...

at least being there it could spur on some priority being given to development there.

Lifelike · 08-03-2010 5:43pm

corktina wrote: »

thx 4 pics..i see lots of fields...

at least being there it could spur on some priority being given to development there.

But apparently there are hundreds of empty apartments and townhouses in nearby Adamstown. So I don't think that a lot of development will be happening there soon

The question now is what to do with the station

JHMEG · 08-03-2010 6:03pm

Lifelike wrote: »

But apparently there are hundreds of empty apartments and townhouses in nearby Adamstown.

That is true, and a lot of Adamstown hasn't been built either.

DWCommuter · 08-03-2010 6:04pm

Lifelike wrote: »

The question now is what to do with the station

Add it to the forthcoming, "Look what the Celtic Tiger did" Tour.:D

Run_to_da_hills · 08-03-2010 6:35pm

If the developers got together with IR and proposed a large open air flea market on the site by the Station it could open up for it at weekends. There is no decent "boot sale" markets in Dublin and with the way the economy is going I'm sure there would be an opening for one. Its also a perfect venue for circuses etc as it is away from residential areas.

Wembly flea market is a huge success on a Sunday and it is served directly by the Metropolitan / Jubilee line which stops directly at it.

Lifelike · 08-03-2010 11:40pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If the developers got together with IR and proposed a large open air flea market on the site by the Station it could open up for it at weekends. There is no decent "boot sale" markets in Dublin and with the way the economy is going I'm sure there would be an opening for one. Its also a perfect venue for circuses etc as it is away from residential areas.

Wembly flea market is a huge success on a Sunday and it is served directly by the Metropolitan / Jubilee line which stops directly at it.

Would probably be a good idea, although remember that Wembley Park tube station serves the local community aswell, so it would remain open anyway. But I do agree that something like that could give IÉ an excuse to open this station...

Run_to_da_hills · 08-03-2010 11:54pm

Lifelike wrote: »

Would probably be a good idea, although remember that Wembley Park tube station serves the local community aswell, so it would remain open anyway. But I do agree that something like that could give IÉ an excuse to open this station...

Large park and ride facility for would be an other option but people would be reluctant to use it if fees are too much.

GM071class · 10-03-2010 2:03pm

Lifelike wrote: »

But apparently there are hundreds of empty apartments and townhouses in nearby Adamstown. So I don't think that a lot of development will be happening there soon

The question now is what to do with the station

I Think they should open it, Look at Pheonix Park Station on the Matnooth line.

Every commuter train stops there, Despite it being within spitting distance of Ashtown!

I remember saying to friends years ago that it was a Stupid idea to open a station so close to Ashtown, and only on the assumption that a massive developement was being built on the far side of the Navan Road.

The station see's only a handful of 'foot' passengers a day, However in terms of Park & Ride, I have seen the Car Park reasonably full.

This is another pointless station, though they should finish it, we keep hearing the advice telling us to prepare for the up-lift in the economy..

The semi-state body should be practising this too!

Regards,
Matt,

KC61 · 10-03-2010 2:48pm

Personally I don't see the point in opening the station until an increased level of service on the line is implemented with the delivery of more 3-car 22K sets next year.

At that point yes it should open, and I would hope that a Park & Ride site is included, because there are significant numbers of people in South Lucan who would use the service. It is very accessible from that area.

JHMEG · 10-03-2010 3:07pm

Could someone from Lucan post their opinion on that? There seems to be a notion in this country that any train service is great, when clearly that's not the case. Serving a station on the outskirts on the fringe of the city centre and not integrating with other suburban rail are majorly off-putting.

KC61 · 10-03-2010 3:21pm

JHMEG wrote: »

Could someone from Lucan post their opinion on that? There seems to be a notion in this country that any train service is great, when clearly that's not the case. Serving a station on the outskirts on the fringe of the city centre and not integrating with other suburban rail are majorly off-putting.

Knowing a not insignificant number of people from that area who work in the city, I asked them a very specific question - if there were a minimum of 4 trains per hour in the peak and two in the off-peak, with parking facilities at Kishoge station would they use it?

The answer from all of them was, interestingly, yes.

The point I am making is that it would be quite daft to open it as it stands without increasing frequency to make it a viable alternative to the bus/car. Nor would it make sense to open without a Park & Ride facility. I'm not sure whether one is planned for the station or not, but if there isn't someone's head should roll.

I'm not in the habit of making wild statements without doing a little research first!

JHMEG · 10-03-2010 4:33pm

I meant on thread.

Unkel lives beside the station and doesn't seem to think the service is much use.

Victor · 10-03-2010 5:09pm

Adamstown gets some use, as does Clondalkin Fonthill I imagine. As Kishoge is unlikely to ever have a car park, I can't see it opening until either (a) train frequency is substantially increased (via the extra 22000 sets or displaced 2900 sets) or (b) there is sufficient demand in the immediate vicinity, i.e. on the door step.

KC61 · 10-03-2010 5:28pm

JHMEG wrote: »

I meant on thread.

Unkel lives beside the station and doesn't seem to think the service is much use.

I would agree with that. Unless frequency were built up to provide a realistic alternative to the 25a/25x bus then they can forget about it.

KC61 · 10-03-2010 5:29pm

Victor wrote: »

Adamstown gets some use, as does Clondalkin Fonthill I imagine. As Kishoge is unlikely to ever have a car park, I can't see it opening until either (a) train frequency is substantially increased (via the extra 22000 sets or displaced 2900 sets) or (b) there is sufficient demand in the immediate vicinity, i.e. on the door step.

That I think is scandalous. Crazy planning.

Although not surprising. Look at Clondalkin/Fonthill. The 76/a/b and 210 pass directly outside but there are no bus stops within a 7 minute walk of the station!

JHMEG · 10-03-2010 5:36pm

KC61 wrote: »

I would agree with that. Unless frequency were built up to provide a realistic alternative to the 25a/25x bus then they can forget about it.

You're missing my point. The frequency doesn't matter when the service doesn't go to where most people want to go. The 25a goes through the heart of the city and on to Pearse Street.

HeritageRailway · 10-03-2010 6:14pm

JHMEG wrote: »

You're missing my point. The frequency doesn't matter when the service doesn't go to where most people want to go. The 25a goes through the heart of the city and on to Pearse Street.

Part of the reason for opening Kishogue and renovating other stations on this line is to feed into the Dart Underground programme. When this is built, it will call at Pearse and it will provide a frequent service in a fraction of the time that either the 25A or 151 currently do. Until there is a scope to open the line fully and the DoT allow for a bus feeder towards the line, Kishogue has no need to open.

In relation to Ashtown station, the long term plan is for Phoenix Park and a new station located around Ratoath Road to replace it. Currently, this is partly held up due to local residents objecting to a bridge to replace "Reilly's Crossing on Ratoath Road; a long known accident black spot and traffic bottleneck.

dowlingm · 10-03-2010 7:07pm

As a rule of thumb, the need for a car park at a rail station should be inversely proportional to distance from the centre of the city. Where car parks exist in dense urban areas they should be replaced with "kiss and ride" loops and the property then developed.

However, the failure to integrate fares or to direct bus operators to serve the stations that exist means people will continue to assume "park and ride" as a default.

Lifelike · 10-03-2010 8:56pm

KC61 wrote: »

That I think is scandalous. Crazy planning.

Although not surprising. Look at Clondalkin/Fonthill. The 76/a/b and 210 pass directly outside but there are no bus stops within a 7 minute walk of the station!

The station doesn't even have a car park :eek:. Now that really is bad planning by IÉ. The whole idea of the station is bad enough already, being so close to Adamstown, but this is off the wall altogether.

anotherlostie · 10-03-2010 9:12pm

Also living along this line, I would never consider the train an option due to its poor frequency. It's a difficult situation for IE - the current demand doesn't lend itself to providing extra services (even when the capacity is there), but on the other hand, if you build, will they come? If I knew there was a train every 15-20 minutes (and not every 2 hours, if that), I would certainly use the station instead of a bus.

KC61 · 10-03-2010 9:27pm

JHMEG wrote: »

You're missing my point. The frequency doesn't matter when the service doesn't go to where most people want to go. The 25a goes through the heart of the city and on to Pearse Street.

I accept that point - but even allowing for the changeover to the 92 at Heuston the train would probably be faster than the 25a/25x.

JHMEG · 11-03-2010 12:38am

KC61 wrote: »

I accept that point - but even allowing for the changeover to the 92 at Heuston the train would probably be faster than the 25a/25x.

Which is really a case of bad and worse. Driving to Leixlip and getting the train from there would be a better option for a lot of people.

HeritageRailway wrote:

Part of the reason for opening Kishogue and renovating other stations on this line is to feed into the Dart Underground programme.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

KC61 · 11-03-2010 1:01am

JHMEG wrote: »

Which is really a case of bad and worse. Driving to Leixlip and getting the train from there would be a better option for a lot of people.

We are of course speaking hypothetically (assuming Kishoge were open) but I have to say that you're a difficult person to please - an integrated bus/rail service (through tickets available) and you're still not happy!!

orourkeda · 11-03-2010 1:03am

HeritageRailway wrote: »

Part of the reason for opening Kishogue and renovating other stations on this line is to feed into the Dart Underground programme. When this is built, it will call at Pearse and it will provide a frequent service in a fraction of the time that either the 25A or 151 currently do. Until there is a scope to open the line fully and the DoT allow for a bus feeder towards the line, Kishogue has no need to open.

In relation to Ashtown station, the long term plan is for Phoenix Park and a new station located around Ratoath Road to replace it. Currently, this is partly held up due to local residents objecting to a bridge to replace "Reilly's Crossing on Ratoath Road; a long known accident black spot and traffic bottleneck.

What about Broombridge? Will that close? Its only a fleas spit from Ratoath Road and it would appear to me that it wouldnt really justify the expense or hassle of building a new station. I'm no expert on these matters and perhaps there's a perfectly rational explanation for this but I cant quite see what it is.

It appears to be transferring the problem down the line. Quite literally

orourkeda · 11-03-2010 1:12am

Lifelike wrote: »

Would probably be a good idea, although remember that Wembley Park tube station serves the local community aswell, so it would remain open anyway. But I do agree that something like that could give IÉ an excuse to open this station...

Then you also have wembley stadium, (although not used daily or weekly by any means) and a lot of office space in the area also.

JHMEG · 11-03-2010 1:47am

KC61 wrote: »

We are of course speaking hypothetically (assuming Kishoge were open) but I have to say that you're a difficult person to please - an integrated bus/rail service (through tickets available) and you're still not happy!!

Down my way you'd be called snakey! There is a huge difference between having the option of linking up with a bus service, and having no choice but to use a bus to complete your journey, and well you know it! The latter does not an integrated system make.

KC61 · 11-03-2010 2:13am

JHMEG wrote: »

Down my way you'd be called snakey! There is a huge difference between having the option of linking up with a bus service, and having no choice but to use a bus to complete your journey, and well you know it! The latter does not an integrated system make.

You are entitled to your view but I doubt people would make a longer drive from south Lucan to Leixlip to get a longer train journey rather than drive from south Lucan to Kishoge and then train to Heuston even allowing for the 92 bus.

JHMEG · 11-03-2010 11:05am

KC61 wrote: »

You are entitled to your view but I doubt people would make a longer drive from south Lucan to Leixlip to get a longer train journey rather than drive from south Lucan to Kishoge and then train to Heuston and then having to complete their journey to the city centre by bus

I fixed that post for you. I would have no doubt that driving to Leixlip from Lucan village would be a quicker and more satisfactory option for the city centre than drive-train-bus.

KC61 · 11-03-2010 11:48am

JHMEG wrote: »

I fixed that post for you. I would have no doubt that driving to Leixlip from Lucan village would be a quicker and more satisfactory option for the city centre than drive-train-bus.

You are misrepresenting what I said. Please read my posts carefully. I never said Lucan Village. I said South Lucan. There is a big difference.

Given that the bus from Heuston Station is very consistent to the city centre because of the continuous North Quays bus lane, the option of going via Kishoge and Heuston would actually be the fastest route.

Assuming that the person is going to say the Grafton Street area, the principal commuter trains from Leixlip Louisa Bridge to Tara Street take 41 and 45 minutes. Allowing for 15 minutes driving/parking and then a 10 minute walk that totals 1 hour 10 minutes approximately.

Taking Kishoge (were it open and had a car park), 5/10 minutes to get to the station, 17 minutes on the train to Heuston, and then allow 20 minutes between the walk to the bus and then the 92 bus trip direct to the south city. That totals roughly 50 minutes.

It does boil down to perception a lot of the time, and as I've noted before that does not always equate to the reality.

JHMEG · 11-03-2010 12:21pm

KC61 wrote: »

I never said Lucan Village.

I did. 10 mins drive to Leixlip Confey and 30 mins into Connolly. No bus required.

I think your estimates of 20 mins from getting off the train to arriving by bus to your destination are conservative.

(EDIT: If I was in charge, I would not allow Heuston to be used for any commuter services... it's fine for intercity)

KC61 · 11-03-2010 12:33pm

JHMEG wrote: »

I did. 10 mins drive to Leixlip Confey and 30 mins into Connolly. No bus required.

I think your estimates of 20 mins from getting off the train to arriving by bus to your destination are conservative.

(EDIT: If I was in charge, I would not allow Heuston to be used for any commuter services... it's fine for intercity)

With due respect if you going to start questioning a point that I make, by changing the goalposts, I think that you should make that abundantly clear, because it makes the whole discussion rather pointless.

From the outset in this thread I said my comments related to South Lucan. You only mentioned Lucan Village in post 46, which was after you started to claim that Leixlip would be faster.

If we are going to have an intelligent discussion about this it is only fair that you make the basis of your arguments clear at the time, rather than wasting my time.

As someone who has used the Rail/92 bus through Heuston on quite a number of occasions, I can actually say that 20 minutes is quite realistic from the platform to Grafton Street even in rush hour.

As I have said before, my comments/observations here are based as someone who uses public transport every day and as someone with a keen interest in how it actually works (or not as the case may be). I am not in the habit of making statements for the sake of it.

If you are suggesting that it would be quicker to operate around into Connolly and Pearse via the Phoenix Park (even allowing for the lack of capacity there), than Heuston, I honestly think that you're wrong. The bus lane on the North Quays changed that. Furthermore a quick glance at the timetable shows most trains take 35/38 minutes in the morning peak to Connolly from Confey not 30.

I don't see any point in contributing to a series of posts where someone is just moving the goalposts to suit their own perceptions.

JHMEG · 11-03-2010 12:51pm

Fair enouigh, you're talking about south Lucan only. I said Lucan from the outset, and "Lucan" includes, but is not limited to, Lucan Village.

I have endured the 9x from Heuston on many occasions, and forcing the use of bus does not make for satisfactory transport, and I believe the interconnector plans support my argument, where rail will replace bus. Forcing people to use the bus does not mean transport is "integrated", as you imply.

I canvassed the opinion of people who actually live in Lucan. With due respect your unwaivering support for CIE and state run public transport in general blinkers you slightly from the reality, in my opinion. I don't live in Lucan and I suspect you don't either, so how about we wait till someone like unkel tells us what he thinks.

JHMEG · 11-03-2010 12:58pm

KC61 wrote: »

If you are suggesting that it would be quicker to operate around into Connolly and Pearse via the Phoenix Park (even allowing for the lack of capacity there), than Heuston,

You've twisted that and turned it into a loaded question, and well you know it. Of course south Lucan into Heuston will be quicker than into Connolly.

You are fully aware that I meant running via the Park straight into Connolly, and Heuston out of the loop (so to speak) would beat any form of Heuston then bus or Heuston then Luas.

Kishoge station: A white elephant never opened

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