Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

16791112170

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The N20 around Charleville , old N6 around Kilreekil and N18 south of Gort all have a profile of 10-12k AADT and these are with important truck and bus corridors included.

    The M18 is being built as narrow median ( after the bit around Newmarket on Fergus was finished) and the M6 section around Cappataggle toll/Kilreekil is also narrow median.

    From Croom to Mallow certainly requires no more than narrow median for the traffic levels no more than Gort-Ennis does.

    I would consider something more adequate( wide median) north of Croom and from the blackwater bridge near Mallow on to Cork and would plan for D3 within 10 miles of Limerick and Cork cities. They bought enough land for wide median from Galway Airport as far as the M18/M17 exchange west of Athenry.

    It is a pity that the NRA does not consider using concrete barriers on corners and post and wire barriers on straights, driving for miles on end at 75mph along a concrete wall is weird and uncomfortable and the relief of a road 'opening itself out' on occasion would be nice :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Well The M20 should be wide median deffo to Croom to Limerick, since the Adare bypass will hook up here and the N20 rises to 15,000 just before the N2O TOTOs. The existing DC near Limerick is 25,000 A.A.D.T with a high amount H.G.Vs. Traffic will boom here when the Tunnel, Gort bypas and Limerick to Nenagh scheme opens. The Castleisland bypass will be open and Adare schemes will allow greater traffic movements to funnel onto the Croom to Limerick motorway. I would deffo agree with having this section D3 capacity. It makes perfect sense.

    The N20 is pretty busy with a very large amount of H.G.Vs. It will continue to rise as the Atlantic corridor is now taking shape further north. So the trade and links between Limerick, Cork and Galway will prosper imo.

    Mallow is 16,000 A.A.D.T and rises to 22,000 A.A.D.T at blackpool. Simalar figures on the Limerick end where traffic rises at the N21 interchange.

    I still think the Adare bypass should be motorway to motorway interchange. It's going to be another M50 disaster interchange, with 5 exits. This isn't acceptable considering it funnels local, N21 and the the Croom traffic to and from the M20. This is going to be another headache, considering the existing N21, N20 interchange is higher spec.:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Are they redesigning this scheme or what/ I would like to see modifcation done to the N21 branch off. The N21 should been connected to the M20 by a free flowing on ramp and off ramp.


    The first lump of the M20 should be the Adare/Croom to Buttevant. This would be pahse 1 can be fast tracked, and the other fantasy schemes can wait until this is done.



    No other road scheme should start until after this gets built. The only scheme on par with this is Newlands and Gort Tuam.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The road north of Arklow is 50% busier than the stretch from Croom to Mallow.

    Anyway most of the land is bought and finishing the missing link on the M11 will take a lot less time than the M20 which is still in planning.

    This argument is facetious.


  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭csd


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Anyway most of the land is bought and finishing the missing link on the M11 will take a lot less time than the M20 which is still in planning.

    This is the key here. The CPOs for the M11 are done, the land is fenced, the (preliminary) design work is done. It would take the M20 a year at least to get to this stage, so it's silly to say the M11 (and other projects) should be delayed till the poor old N20 gets its upgrade.
    This argument is facetious.

    +1

    /csd


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Like I said a few days ago, the section from Croom to Mallow is not as busy as /no busier than the N11 north of Arklow so stop dragging that section of the N11 into it all the time.

    It stands on its own merits along with Newlands Cross and should ideally proceed as soon as possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Yes, I absolutely want the M20 project to go ahead, and as soon as possible, but I would nevertheless consider Newlands and the missing N11 section a higher priority.

    My main concern is that the M20 project isn't completely scrapped, or downgraded while in the waiting list. Plus I think it should be top of the waiting list. A start in about 2 years time would be acceptable. Besides, they need to fix the mess that is the planned tie-in with the existing N21 and the planned Adare Bypass.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,537 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Wanna show us?
    Ooops, I came looking for that image only to find I forgot to attach it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭bacon&cabbage


    Zoney wrote: »
    Yes, I absolutely want the M20 project to go ahead, and as soon as possible, but I would nevertheless consider Newlands and the missing N11 section a higher priority.

    My main concern is that the M20 project isn't completely scrapped, or downgraded while in the waiting list. Plus I think it should be top of the waiting list. A start in about 2 years time would be acceptable. Besides, they need to fix the mess that is the planned tie-in with the existing N21 and the planned Adare Bypass.

    +1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Victor wrote: »
    Ooops, I came looking for that image only to find I forgot to attach it.

    The spurs in black is exactly what I had in mind for enhancing the MIUs using the M8 to greater effect. I was concerned that we'd have good motorways between Dublin and the other cities, but none between the latter - so I was looking at a cost effective way of linking up the other cities and your Black option is almost identical to what I came up with (didn't post it though).

    Your Red option looks very good (but is now irrelevant with the current M8 of course), but would have a massive impact on the Glen of Aherlow - it's a beautiful area. However, it would have been very effective in providing replacement routes for the N20 and N24.

    Wonder if the NRA had considered any of these options before planning the M20???

    Regards!


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Not being smart here but was 'that' M24 proposal via Mitchelstown .....not a Mysterious plan originally. It stuck in my mind because it was the only logical proposal I ever saw from him during his hyperactive 'ms paint' phase . :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Yeah, but those alternative plans do not deal with the need to upgrade the N20 south of Mallow to accommodate commuter traffic growth. Plus there is already M20 to Patrickswell and relatively easy to upgrade WS2 to south of Croom. So Croom-Mallow remains a missing link.

    I don't think the idea of link through the Galtees to M8 is particularly sensible. Sure you can see from the map it's actually longer than the specific Croom to Mallow section!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Not being smart here but was 'that' M24 proposal via Mitchelstown .....not a Mysterious plan originally. It stuck in my mind because it was the only logical proposal I ever saw from him during his hyperactive 'ms paint' phase . :D


    It was my idea i posted it here years ago.:p I just brought it up many times. Infact I drew a motorway map here of my plans on a few occaisions. It included the M24 idea. I didn't get the idea from somone else. I'm a road expert and I see how motorways are designed in other countries. I'm sure others came up with the same idea aswell.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    You may have dug out your crayon but it was not an original idea from you. The NRA commissioned a feasibility study, Fehily Timoney Gifford Ramboll, on the viability of the Atlantic Corridor being routed down towards the M8 or down the N20.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    You may have dug out your crayon but it was not an original idea from you. The NRA commissioned a feasibility study, Fehily Timoney Gifford Ramboll, on the viability of the Atlantic Corridor being routed down towards the M8 or down the N20.


    I still think it was my original idea. NRA never made it official. and lets be real. Still doesn't prove they came up with the idea before me or anyone.

    They wouldnt think thngs like this as quick as I would. Never mind actually planning roads as efficient as this. I was saying this for years about the current motorway plans running alongside old N routes was complete lunacy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The NRA commissioned a feasibility study, Fehily Timoney Gifford Ramboll, on the viability of the Atlantic Corridor being routed down towards the M8 or down the N20.

    Touché, but I did first hear it from Mysterious the self proclaimed "road expert" around here :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Touché, but I did first hear it from Mysterious the self proclaimed "road expert" around here :p

    You mean you read it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    You may have dug out your crayon but it was not an original idea from you. The NRA commissioned a feasibility study, Fehily Timoney Gifford Ramboll, on the viability of the Atlantic Corridor being routed down towards the M8 or down the N20.

    Anyone know where a copy of the study can be read?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Not being smart here but was 'that' M24 proposal via Mitchelstown .....not a Mysterious plan originally. It stuck in my mind because it was the only logical proposal I ever saw from him during his hyperactive 'ms paint' phase . :D

    Tis being smart though, Mysterious has put across some good sketches of interchanges in the past. Could ye two shake off yer differences and get on with discussing the topic at hand.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 37 wingfo


    Surly the North ring road has to be done along with the M20 as there
    will be a major bottleneck in the Blackpool area when the end of the
    motorway is reached,mind you this is Irish planning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    M20 Southern Section (Blarney - Mallow) and Cork NRR Phase 1 (Blarney - M8) will be built at the same time (eventually).

    As for the Blarney - N22 section of the NRR, god knows :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Bards


    [PR] €1bn Cork-Limerick motorway plan a step closer


    http://www.examiner.ie/home/euro1bn-cork-limerick-motorway-plan-a-step-closer-113078.html

    Thursday, February 25, 2010



    PLANS for one of the country’s longest and most expensive motorways linking Cork and Limerick will be lodged with An Bord Pleanála today.



    The €1 billion M20 project features:

    * 80 kilometres of dual divided motorway.

    * 6km of dual carriageway.

    * 45km of associated national, regional and local roads

    * A motorway service area at Lissard, near Rathduff.

    * 46 road bridges, eight river bridges and two railway bridges.

    * 33 structures for land or farm access, and 36 major culverts.

    Land values along the proposed route and construction costs have not been finalised. But the M3 from Clonee, west of Dublin, to Kells, which is 20km longer and due to open in July, will cost some €1bn.

    The M20 will start at the existing Blarney junction and will remain online with the existing N20 to Mourneabbey. The proposed route will then veer east from the existing N20 passing east of Mallow and Buttevant. It will rejoin the existing N20 for about 2km at Velvetstown before again veering to the east.

    It will cross the N20 just south of Ballyhea, pass west of Charleville and continue west of the existing N20 until the Croom bypass.

    Most of the bypass will be reutilised as part of the new development and the new scheme will terminate near the existing junction at Attyflin, Co Limerick. An oral hearing on the proposed route will be held this summer and subject to funding, construction could start before the end of 2011. The project is being coordinated by Cork County Council and Limerick County Council, with the support of the National Roads Authority.

    When the corridor scheme is complete, Cork and Galway will be linked by some 200km of motorway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    the M3 from Clonee, west of Dublin, to Kells, which is 20km longer and due to open in July, will cost some €1bn.

    Eh, the M20 will be almost DOUBLE the length of the M3. And people worry about the death of newsprint.. :rolleyes:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Maps CPO and EIS are all here

    http://www.corkrdo.ie/m20_cork_limerick_motorway_scheme_cpo.php

    You need an Autodesk DWF File Viewer app to read the maps in detail. The rest is in PDF format including some low res maps.

    You may even be go and meet "Isaac" at the hearing and give evidence against him :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Eh, the M20 will be almost DOUBLE the length of the M3. And people worry about the death of newsprint.. :rolleyes:
    the figures are right, on the M3 project you have:
    49km of motorway from Clonee to Kells (M3)
    10km of dual carriageway from Kells to Carnaross, North of Kells (N3)
    making 59km, indeed 21 km less than the N20, so 1km out but you'd let the paper away with that


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 441 ✭✭Joey Joe-Joe Jr


    the figures are right, on the M3 project you have:
    49km of motorway from Clonee to Kells (M3)
    10km of dual carriageway from Kells to Carnaross, North of Kells (N3)
    making 59km, indeed 21 km less than the N20, so 1km out but you'd let the paper away with that

    But the newspaper article states that the M3 is 20 km longer than the proposed M20.
    ...the M3 from Clonee, west of Dublin, to Kells, which is 20km longer...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    My connexion speed is pathetic; can someone summarise the route of the M20 to Mallow? North of Blarney is an online upgrade envisaged, much like the Nenagh Bypass?

    (Or, better yet, upload some images from the EIS drawings.)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Online to within 5 miles of Mallow swings east offline and passes east of Mallow , there is a junction and an interconnect road NE of Mallow that goes about 1-2 miles west to the existing N20 north of the town. East until Charleville, crosses N20 and then remains offline remains west until it passes Croom and the Croom bypass is also online.

    No Adare Bypass or junction therewith is shown, there is no final route ( I think) and certainly no CPO and EIS for it.

    It appears a decision was made not to hold the remainder up for Adare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    I don't see a north ring road? :(

    Is that now not going ahead???


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I don't see a north ring road? :(

    Neither do I, it could be because it is a separate EIS contract and may report separately ( and presently )

    See http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR082067


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Hmm.
    * Scheme to be split into two, with the southern section likely starting first. Split most likely in Velvetstown area, where a temporary at-grade roundabout will be built.
    * Service area at Rathduff, which may be advanced as a separate scheme.
    * Nine grade-separated junctions at: Blarney (full), Rathduff (half), MSA (full), Mallow South (full), Mallow East (full), Charleville/Ballyhea (full), Bruree (full), Croom (full), Attyflin (full).
    * Lots of online upgrade.

    The last point will make this scheme protracted and messy, methinks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    No Adare Bypass or junction therewith is shown, there is no final route ( I think) and certainly no CPO and EIS for it.

    It appears a decision was made not to hold the remainder up for Adare.

    Actually deposit map 43 shows land for a roundabout junction for Croom (north) with land for a spur to the west for Adare bypass, as was shown on earlier maps.

    Also deposit map 46 shows extinguishment of existing slips at the current N20 junction on the M20/N21 mainline, and possibly a messy new arrangement off that junction for the existing N21.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    So they intend do the southern section first to a point somewhere between Buttevant and Charleville Furet ????

    Jebus, half that is online, very messy altogether. Best give that job to Roadbridge or Wills who don't hang about :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    So they intend do the southern section first to a point somewhere between Buttevant and Charleville Furet ????

    Jebus, half that is online, very messy altogether. Best give that job to Roadbridge or Wills who don't hang about :D

    Looks like it. See EIS part 1, p. 4.2 of 4.50

    I really hope Roadbridge gets this. Can you imagine how long it will take if it goes to Bam.

    EDIT, Velvetstown is a little north of Buttevant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Attached.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Hate posting three posts back-to-back, but I think when the time comes we should have this thread as a pre-construction thread and have two separate ones for the two halves once they start construction. The M9 thread is a monstrosity now, and is very hard to follow casually. I don't think this thread should go down that path...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Furet wrote: »
    Attached.

    And in there on page 72 of 446 ( cannot copy it :( ) they say the development will be split at Velveststown and the southern bit from there will be done first.

    The MSA will be a third separate scheme.

    I suppose the northern bit will be held over until they complete the Adare EIS and CPO which has not been given to Jacobs Engineering that I can see ...or anybody else. Jacobs have the old style engineering consultancy contract in Adare since 2005.

    The NRR is mentioned on page 131 where they say "IF" the NRR is constructed at the same time ....not AS or WHILE , it has been decoupled from the M20 southern section to a certain extent...do read the whole page. But the NRR is a separate EIS and CPO to be prepared by Fehilly not Eptisa/Arup.

    If ye had any competent TDs in all of Limerick and Cork ye could get them to ask Dempsey questions in the Dáil

    1. When will the CPO and EIS for the NRR be published.
    2. Will the Bord Pleanala Hearing be conducted for

    a) M20 ( all)
    b) M20 ( all + NRR)
    c) M20 South ONLY
    d) M20 South AND NRR TOGETHER?

    and in what decade ????

    3. Will the NRR go to construction with the M20 Southern section Cork-Velvetstown
    4. Now that the northern M20 section has decoupled can he give a date when the PPP Tender willl be published for each of

    a) M20 south
    b) M20 North
    c) Adare :D
    d) Cork NRR

    ...you know, important stuff for Cork TD's like !!!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The North Ring is mentioned under the "Early Feasibility Studies" section from page 51/446 (specifically p. 53). In addition the possibility of a connection to the M8 at Mitchelstown is discussed and then dismissed.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Question 5. When will the EIS for Adare go to tender and when will the tender be awarded ???


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Is the southern section cheaper? If so, this may have more chance of going ahead, and with it built, to some extent it makes it unlikely the northern section will be permanently stalled even if it is held up (makes the state of the existing road all the more glaring if it has motorway north and south of it).


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I'm still quite shocked at the thought of a rebuild of the existing N20 from Blarney to the southern outskirts of Mallow. That will be quite an undertaking indeed, especially from Rathduff to Mallow, where the amount of ribbon development, junctions and constraints in general is formidable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    In this map Velvetstown marks the cut-off point between the N and S sections of the proposed M20.

    N20N73M8.jpg

    It looks to me like the N73 is crying out to be linked to the M20 via a dead straight spur, no more than 8 or 9km long, that would remove the painful bend and dive in the N73's current alignment. Such a spur would bring the M20 much closer to Kildorrerey, Mitchelstown, and the M8.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭-Corkie-


    As furet said above about the new thread, i am livin west of mallow so when construction does commence i should be able to give regular updates and pictures. Roadbridge would be the ideal contractor allrite furet but anything would be better than bothar hibernian, i would have to go down there with a wheelbarrow and shovel to improve progress.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Heres a general map -

    m20a.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Those DSW files are horrendous to work with.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Furet wrote: »
    I'm still quite shocked at the thought of a rebuild of the existing N20 from Blarney to the southern outskirts of Mallow. That will be quite an undertaking indeed, especially from Rathduff to Mallow, where the amount of ribbon development, junctions and constraints in general is formidable.

    There is indeed but most of the road is very wide so online upgrade should not be so bad given the right contractor gets the job to carry out the work. The best part of it all will be easy to keep track of progress on the scheme from Mallow south. Is the 2+1 original section included in the online upgrade?

    A little off topic I think the N21 to south of Adare should be dual type 1. You cannot avoid the fact that 25,000 cars pass through the streets of that town every day which 2+2 wont handle of a bypass. Also the junction at Croom is not not good enough to cater those traffic numbers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    tech2 wrote: »
    There is indeed but most of the road is very wide so online upgrade should not be so bad given the right contractor gets the job to carry out the work. The best part of it all will be easy to keep track of progress on the scheme from Mallow south. Is the 2+1 original section included in the online upgrade?

    That's the crucial bit right there! ;)

    It seems that the 2+1 section will indeed be included in the online upgrade. Lots of at-grade junctions along there to contend with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Just heard a good question here. If this is to be motorway... what will be the "alternate route" between Mallow and Cork? There'll be no "old N road" if it's an online upgrade! The original Mallow-Cork road? Not much of an option I'd have thought, though I'm not too familiar with it. Obviously there'll be parallel access roads for local traffic, but I'm talking about any longer distance traffic that can't go on the motorway. OK, so that's pretty hypothetical given we're basically talking L drivers, tractors and 50cc scooters or what not, none of which are that likely to be long distance - but still.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Grounds for the planning board to reject the southern section, perhaps? The original road is actually medieval.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭-Corkie-


    Zoney wrote: »
    Just heard a good question here. If this is to be motorway... what will be the "alternate route" between Mallow and Cork? There'll be no "old N road" if it's an online upgrade! The original Mallow-Cork road? Not much of an option I'd have thought, though I'm not too familiar with it. Obviously there'll be parallel access roads for local traffic, but I'm talking about any longer distance traffic that can't go on the motorway. OK, so that's pretty hypothetical given we're basically talking L drivers, tractors and 50cc scooters or what not, none of which are that likely to be long distance - but still.


    Blarney to bweeng to mallow is only 1k longer than using the main road at the moment. It runs almost parallel to the west of the n20.


Advertisement