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Girl Buried Alive In Honour Killing Horror

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    #62
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    irishconvert wrote: »
    How are those verses linked to honour killings?

    You take a very loose interpretation of "lewdness" and you ordain a way for death to claim them, say by being buried alive.


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    #63
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    homerjay2005 wrote: »
    at times like this, im happy we live in a country and culture thats knows, by in large, the difference between right and wrong. we have our scumbags, but this is wrong, wrong, wrong...
    The last Magdalene Laundry closed on September 25, 1996


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    #64
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    irishconvert wrote: »
    How are those verses linked to honour killings?

    Nah, those are the loving peaceful verses obviously.


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    #65
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    irishconvert wrote: »
    How are those verses linked to honour killings?

    It shows Islam has far less respect for women than men and encourages violence retribution which has no place in a civilised world. If this is the faith one is indoctrinated into then it's no surprise that such an attitude is prevalent in Islam cultures. At least in Christianity Jesus did a lot to change the barbarism of the old Testament,which is just as violent as Islam.


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    #66
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    prinz wrote: »
    You take a very loose interpretation of "lewdness" and you ordain a way for death to claim them, say by being buried alive.

    The quoted verse doesn't say anything about killing them.


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    #67
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    prinz wrote: »
    You take a very loose interpretation of "lewdness" and you ordain a way for death to claim them, say by being buried alive.

    The Qur'an also specifically states repeatedly that you are never under any circumstance to take the life of a fellow muslim. Like with all organised religions there are tons of contradictions depending on how you interperet your specific centuries old collections of texts.


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    #68
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Xluna wrote: »
    Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

    irishconvert wrote: »
    The quoted verse doesn't say anything about killing them.

    :confused: Seriously?


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    #69
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Xluna wrote: »
    It shows Islam has far less respect for women then men and encourages violence retribution which has no place in a civilised world. If this is the faith one is indoctrinated into then it's no surprise that such an attitude is prevalent in Islam cultures. At least in Christianity Jesus did a lot to change the barbarism of the old Testament,which is just as violent as Islam.

    Maybe you didn't read the verses you quoted properly but it has the same punishment for both men and women.

    In any case you are dragging our discussion off topic. We were discussing if Islamic teaching allows honour killings. You presented two verses which do not suport this point of view.


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    #70
    Sanjuro
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Sanjuro


    prinz wrote: »
    You mean like this one.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8455897.stm :confused: Yup it was fairly well covered. How's that 'guarantee' looking?

    Oh yeah, I remember Sky News doing 24/7 reports about that story all right....

    You can cherry-pick any positive story in order for a weak argument. But the fact of the matter remains, the news channels consistently portray certain communities in a negative light.


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    #71
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    strobe wrote: »
    The Qur'an also specifically states repeatedly that you are never under any circumstance to take the life of a fellow muslim. Like with all organised religions there are tons of contradictions depending on how you interperet your specific centuries old collections of texts.

    Yes. So they can use their interpretation of Islam to kill these women, and men as it happens.


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    #72
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    prinz wrote: »
    :confused: Seriously?

    Funny how you pop up in any Muslim bashing thread.

    The verse can be interpreted as keep them in their house until they die, i.e. of old age.


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    #73
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Wazdakka wrote: »
    I for one, fully support Turkey's application to be a full member of the European Union.

    With interesting things like this going on, What a great addition they would make..

    [/Enough sarcasm to kill a small horse]

    No sacarsm was required.

    It is human rights concerns (amongst other things) that are holding up Turkey's entry to the EU.

    If you want people in Turkey to be spared honour killings and the like, then the process of bringing Turkey into the EU is a good way of achieving that.


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    #74
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    irishconvert wrote: »
    The quoted verse doesn't say anything about killing them.

    I think the point prinz,very insightfully made, was that they manipulated an uncompassionate Islamic teaching to find a way to murder them. If such a teaching was more compassionate, they would not have been able to do this.


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    #75
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Sanjuro wrote: »
    You can cherry-pick any positive story in order for a weak argument..

    But a while ago you guaranteed there was no positive stories? :confused:


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    #76
    MikeC101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    prinz wrote: »
    :confused: Seriously?

    It could be interpreted as confine them to their houses for the rest of their life, until death in old age.

    To be honest though, it's more about poor, uneducated communities taking an extremist position on what their magical-sky-genie-of-choice wants them to do.

    It's interesting to consider what the situation would be like in some communities if the Old Testament hadn't been moderated somewhat by the New.


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    #77
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    prinz wrote: »
    :confused: Seriously?

    To be fair I don't think that verse could be interpreted as anything other than a life time house arrest order. It takes a huge leap to interperet as a death sentence. Still extremely fukked up to suggest you imprison someone for the rest of thier lives for flashing thier knickers though.


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    #78
    Sanjuro
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Sanjuro


    prinz wrote: »
    But a while ago you guaranteed there was no positive stories? :confused:

    Right. Well you can argue semantics with yourself all day if you like. Enjoy.


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    #79
    Proxy
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭Proxy


    Whenever I read a story such as this, I wonder "when is America going to liberate and bring stability to them"?

    It's a messed up world.


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    #80
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Xluna wrote: »
    I think the point prinz,very insightfully made, was that they manipulated an uncompassionate Islamic teaching to find a way to murder them. If such a teaching was more compassionate, they would not have been able to do this.
    You also selectively quoted, I have highlighted the part you omitted.
    If any of your women are guilty of fornication, ask for four reliable witnesses from among yourselves against them; and if they testify and their guilt is proved, confine them to their houses until they die or Allah opens some other way out for them.[15] And the two, whether married or unmarried, who are guilty of this offense, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. Surely Allah is the Acceptor of Repentance, Merciful


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    #81
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Funny how you pop up in any Muslim bashing thread..

    Just about as often as you pop up with a copy-and-paste disclaimer about how nothing could possible have anything to do with Islam and refusing to acknowledge any link whatsoever. Might I point out that I have also stated out that honour killing is a practice in other communities too?
    irishconvert wrote: »
    The verse can be interpreted as keep them in their house until they die, i.e. of old age.

    Ah well, that's ok then. :rolleyes: In fairness as a westerner Muslim, that you could see that interpretation as ok speaks volumes. Is it any wonder that people in let's say more 'backward' communities take a deadlier interpretation?


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    #82
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    MikeC101 wrote: »
    It could be interpreted as confine them to their houses for the rest of their life, until death in old age.

    To be honest though, it's more about poor, uneducated communities taking an extremist position on what their magical-sky-genie-of-choice wants them to do.

    It's interesting to consider what the situation would be like in some communities if the Old Testament hadn't been moderated somewhat by the New.

    You would be going down with uzis to gay pubs on a murder spree,killing Tesco and Dunnes employees,as they work on the Sabbath. Oh and you could'nt be near a woman if she's menstruating. Nice to know Gods law is eternal.:rolleyes:


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    #83
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    strobe wrote: »
    To be fair I don't think that verse could be interpreted as anything other than a life time house arrest order. It takes a huge leap to interperet as a death sentence. Still extremely fukked up to suggest you imprison someone for the rest of thier lives for flashing thier knickers though.
    Only if you selectively quote from the Qur'an


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    #84
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    irishconvert wrote: »
    You also selectively quoted, I have highlighted the part you omitted.

    I would like to know how they repent. Of course in this case the victim was not able to repent being buried alive. I got those quote from an external source,so it was they who selectively left out the redeeming part of the passage. What of the other quote I mentioned,about whipping people in public,was there a redeeming part of that quote left out?


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    #85
    GrizzlyMan
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭GrizzlyMan


    That has made me so angry reading that, Fu*king C*nts!!! All Religion should be banned! all it does is brain wash idiots


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    #86
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    GrizzlyMan wrote: »
    That has made me so angry reading that, Fu*king C*nts!!! All Religion should be banned! all it does is brain wash idiots

    Add the media and advertising to that list and you've got my vote.


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    #87
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Only if you selectively quote from the Qur'an

    Surely you could acknowledge that the thousands of Muslims who do kill in the name of "honour" have been selectively Qur'an?


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    #88
    Pedro K
    Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Pedro K


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Since we cant even be consistent in our assumptions regarding her ethnicity lets not make assumptions about peoples religion ?
    It happened in a south eastern province of Turkey, which, as stated in the article, are predominantly Kurdish.

    Kurds, are also mostly muslims.

    It is perfectly consistent and within reason to think so.


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    #89
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    It is perfectly consistent and within reason to think Barrack Obama is white ?
    GrizzlyMan wrote: »
    All Religion should be banned!

    If the fact that burying someone alive is illegal doesnt seem to stop people doing it I fail to see how banning religion will ?


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    #90
    Kaizer Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭Kaizer Sosa


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Since we cant even be consistent in our assumptions regarding her ethnicity lets not make assumptions about peoples religion ?
    MikeC101 wrote: »
    What's not consistent?

    Kurds are a significant ethnic group in Turkey - the killing took place in a Kurdish area. Hence, it took place in Turkey, and the perpetrators appear to have been Kurdish in ethnicity.

    What's hard to understand about that?

    Ladies and Gentleman, I think we're about to have a mike-off.


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    #91
    MikeC101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    It is perfectly consistent and within reason to think Barrack Obama is white ?

    If you somehow existed in an information vacuum for a number of years, I'd say it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to expect the US President to be an older white man. It would be an incorrect assumption of course. If you still think it when faced with evidence to the contrary, then you have a problem.

    Plus I think a proper comparison would be more along the lines of would it be reasonable to assume a randomly chosen US President was a white male.

    But with regards to what you actually posted, which was claiming that referring to the girl as being both Turkish and a Kurd was "not being consistent in our assumptions regarding her ethnicity", that's nonsense. Someone can be both. There's no inconsistency there, (though it would seem many Kurds would prefer not to be considered Turkish) and given the demographics of the region, it isn't unreasonable to make the assumption.

    Add to that the phenomenon of Kurdish honour killings in Turkey, the majority of Kurds being Muslims, it's hardly all that much of a stretch.

    Edit: Some of the newer reports are also claiming "Medine attempted three times to seek refuge at a local police station, but each time was turned away." I don't know how autonomous the Kurdish regions are from Turkish police in regards to local matters, but there's a serious policing problem there if it's true.


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