Government agreement: Free-To-Air RTE in NI, BBC in RoI on DTT platform

lucernarian · 03-02-2010 01:57PM

Moville wouldn't really cover much of Co. Antrim.

Anyway there's coverage maps from the commercial multiplex operators. They aren't perfect and specifically the Moville relay does not form part of the plans so North Antrim and Derry look worse than they would be.

Linky: http://www.bci.ie/DTT/easy_tv/append5_tech.pdf

(They're all the same from each of the 3 bidders, the 3 bids were proposing identical coverage)

I note with interest that East Down is apparently not covered even though reports say otherwise... with a proper rooftop aerial install, the coverage would be more comprehensive across NI than the map suggests. Though places like Coleraine and Omagh and much of Belfast (Belfast not being the easiest place to erect rooftop aerials what with apartments etc.) would still have issues.

sesswhat · 03-02-2010 06:37PM

lawhec wrote: »

An Ofcom commissioned Arqiva document states that there is room for at least one additional multiplex from each of the three main transmitter sites in Northern Ireland (Divis, Limavady & Brougher Mountain).

The coverage of these three transmitters will be greatly increased at ASO. If they do find room to carry RTE1, RTE2 and TG4 in mpeg2, there will be a lot of people on both sides of the border for whom the technology Saorview use may no longer be relevant.

With one aerial, and some cheap as chips mpeg2 equipment, they can have all the Freeview channels (except HD) and the Irish ones as well, in every TV in the house.

Of course even if it does happen, it is almost three years away, by which time all equipment will be much cheaper and new TVs will have more advanced tuners as standard.

By then, RTE may also have added some value to their own mux. Otherwise I can't see many people with UTV putting up an extra aerial just for TV3.

lawhec · 03-02-2010 11:09PM

Elmo wrote: »

The right for foreign TV to broadcast terrestrial ???? AVWF/TVWF doesn't really state that. It just states that a government cannot prevent broadcasts from one member state into another via satellite, cable or other forms with greater capacity (of course when original written they were talking about Analogue services).

Within EU rules, a television service that is licensed in one EU country is effectively licensed for all - a country however can stop a channel that is sold for pay-TV purposes & has a foreign licence from having subscriptions for the said channel sold if the content of the channel does not comply with broadcasting rules in that country. This is how the UK hit proscription orders on hardcore pornography channels several times in the mid 1990's. The rule application is platform neutral e.g. TV5 is carried on Sky Digital in the UK and Ireland with a licence from the French authorities therefore does not require a subsequent licence from either Ofcom or the BAI. For terrestrial examples, there are two I can think of straight away - In the German speaking South Tyrol area of Italy, German and Austrian PSB TV and radio is rebroadcast. Closer to home, TG4 transmit from Divis (in analogue) in Belfast; TG4 (to the best of my knowledge) do not have a broadcasting licence from Ofcom.

lawhec · 03-02-2010 11:23PM

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Moville wouldn't really cover much of Co. Antrim.

Anyway there's coverage maps from the commercial multiplex operators. They aren't perfect and specifically the Moville relay does not form part of the plans so North Antrim and Derry look worse than they would be.

Linky: http://www.bci.ie/DTT/easy_tv/append5_tech.pdf

(They're all the same from each of the 3 bidders, the 3 bids were proposing identical coverage)

I note with interest that East Down is apparently not covered even though reports say otherwise... with a proper rooftop aerial install, the coverage would be more comprehensive across NI than the map suggests. Though places like Coleraine and Omagh and much of Belfast (Belfast not being the easiest place to erect rooftop aerials what with apartments etc.) would still have issues.

Current Moville reception range on both TV and radio is very patchy east of Ballintoy on the north Antrim coast. It doesn't penetrate Ballycastle.

Omagh coverage of DTT from the Irish Republic looks bad from the map linked (I can't vouch for Coleraine and Belfast as much), but the coverage assumes a minimum field level of 61dbm. DVB-T can work with significantly lower strengths; most DVB-T receivers sold in the UK can work with signal strengths in the low 40dbm range for the 64QAM multiplexes and the 16QAM multiplexes lower still. I suspect the coverage has been made deliberately conservative.

STB · 03-02-2010 11:42PM

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Actually the more interesting issue is this: when will Irish DTT ever start? We've been waiting 12 years. If you just wanted FTA simulcast of Irish PSB services as a stopgap measure you could start tomorrow with MPEG4 T1 which replicates the analogue offer with much better QoS. But nobody seems able ever, ever to make that commitment... Sky must be rubbing their hands with glee at every delay while there is no Irish Freesat ever in sight. What a mess!!

Well that trivialises matters.

Posters here are finally catching on that your posts about DVB-T2 has little or NO relevance to Ireland in the medium to long term. Infact the same applies to most punters in the UK to for the forseeable future. DVB-T2 is in its infancy and will only be used for a handful of HD terrestrial broadcasts for the forseeable future. ALL the rest of the UK terrestrial stations WILL remain in MPEG2 as a result. This means that there is no need that the UK punter WONT have to replace their cheap MPEG2 box or IDTV for a LONG while. Even if these UK punters want to view HD channels they only have to buy a freely available and cheap combo box which will display the HD stations on Sat and the DVBT stations of MPEG4 and MPEG2 on ONE box. This will also give choice to cross some border punters who can choose to watch RTE in MPEG4 from Ireland or in MPEG2 from the Freeview platform within NI.

Meanwhile little oul Ireland will (as we have done over the last year) deploy the more efficient MPEG4 on DVB-T like the majority of our European colleagues.

We may not have 66 million licence fee holders money to invest in Freesat, but we can get the basic infrastructure right from the start in line with our European neighbours.

Peter Henderson · 04-02-2010 12:23AM

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Moville wouldn't really cover much of Co. Antrim.

Anyway there's coverage maps from the commercial multiplex operators. They aren't perfect and specifically the Moville relay does not form part of the plans so North Antrim and Derry look worse than they would be.

Linky: http://www.bci.ie/DTT/easy_tv/append5_tech.pdf

(They're all the same from each of the 3 bidders, the 3 bids were proposing identical coverage)

I note with interest that East Down is apparently not covered even though reports say otherwise... with a proper rooftop aerial install, the coverage would be more comprehensive across NI than the map suggests. Though places like Coleraine and Omagh and much of Belfast (Belfast not being the easiest place to erect rooftop aerials what with apartments etc.) would still have issues.

I notice with those maps coverage improves after Q1 2011 to include most of newtownabbey/Carrick ? Is this when the power increase takes place or is the deep null to the north going to be removed ? I get perfect reception from Clermont Cairn analogue wise, but nothing on digital (even sound only) although, every so often it'll appear for a few days and then vanish again.

Yesterday's announcement is certainly good news. RTE is extremely poplular up here, even in Unionist/Loyalist areas, judging by the number of aerials pointing at Clermot Cairn. They could easily find space at the moment in NI by doing away with ITV 2 +1, Channel 4 +1, and E4 +1. Plus One channels are pointless in my opinion. Alternatively get rid of some of the shopping/porn/chat channels. Mobilizer, Gay Rabbit, or Rabbit would not be missed by 99.9999% of NI viewers.

STB · 04-02-2010 12:50AM

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Alternatively get rid of some of the shopping/porn/chat channels. Mobilizer, Gay Rabbit, or Rabbit would not be missed by 99.9999% of NI viewers.

Did I read that right. Thats too much choice surely, even for rabbits who'll watch just about anything I'm sure. Hopefully its not part of the contradeal.

The Cush · 04-02-2010 01:09AM

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Linky: http://www.bci.ie/DTT/easy_tv/append5_tech.pdf

(They're all the same from each of the 3 bidders, the 3 bids were proposing identical coverage)

The coverage maps are same because they were provided to the 3 bidders by RTÉNL as they are the transmission provider.

One thing I missed on first reading in Tuesday's Irish Times report on the signing of the MoU was the following

The deal will ensure that the Irish and British authorities co-operate on the transition from analogue to digital television services, including joint ownership of television masts along the border.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0202/1224263582384.html

There is no mention of mast ownership in the MoU, I wonder if this is speculation or is this one of the specifics behind the document. The discussion leading up to the MoU have been ongoing for at least a year, a 3 page document seems like very little information for that much talking.

Souriau · 04-02-2010 01:58AM

Peter Henderson wrote: »

I notice with those maps coverage improves after Q1 2011 to include most of newtownabbey/Carrick ? Is this when the power increase takes place or is the deep null to the north going to be removed ? I get perfect reception from Clermont Cairn analogue wise, but nothing on digital (even sound only) although, every so often it'll appear for a few days and then vanish again.

Yesterday's announcement is certainly good news. RTE is extremely poplular up here, even in Unionist/Loyalist areas, judging by the number of aerials pointing at Clermot Cairn. They could easily find space at the moment in NI by doing away with ITV 2 +1, Channel 4 +1, and E4 +1. Plus One channels are pointless in my opinion. Alternatively get rid of some of the shopping/porn/chat channels. Mobilizer, Gay Rabbit, or Rabbit would not be missed by 99.9999% of NI viewers.

I agree that Plus one is a waste of space,
Channel 4+1, ITV2+1, E4+1, Virgin1+1, plus somt silly text services...

lawhec · 04-02-2010 02:43AM

Channel 4+1 might be "sacrificed" if Mux7 isn't an option, though my experience is that its picture quality on Freeview for the channels can at times be appalling.

ITV2+1 is currently on Mux2 as a place holder for a future ITV1+1 (maybe UTV+1?). Same boat as Channel 4+1.

E4+1 and Virgin 1+1 are on commercial multiplexes which are the same across the UK (i.e. no regional variations) and Virgin 1+1 time-shares its stream with Yesterday and one of those Dial-A-Tart channels. Therefore not a practical consideration unless a dedicated Northern Ireland stream was created, and these would not be broadcast from relays post-DSO.

Services like Mobilizer, Rabbit etc. are MHEG interactive text services from Teletext Ltd. which use up a small amount of bandwidth on MuxA/COM1, nowhere near enough for even a video stream in MPEG4.

The Cush · 05-02-2010 07:20AM

From today's Irish Times

All not happy with a free digital Beeb
Fri, Feb 05, 2010

ON TUESDAY, Communications Minister Eamon Ryan made much play of securing a deal with his British counterparts on digital terrestrial television (DTT).

Among other things, it will facilitate the broadcast of TG4 on free-to-air DTT in Northern Ireland when the analogue signal is switched off in 2012. They must have been dancing in the streets of Belfast at that news.

But a byproduct of the memorandum of understanding between the governments is to “facilitate the widespread availability on the DTT platforms of BBC services in Ireland”.

This was the first hint that the Beeb’s TV channels might be available on the free-to-air, public service DTT multiplex that RTÉ has been charged with airing in 2012.

Ryan’s press release went a step further: “The memorandum commits the two governments to facilitating the widespread availability of RTÉ services in Northern Ireland and BBC services in Ireland on a free-to-air basis.”

Good news for viewers, perhaps, but it caused quite a stir with pay TV operators NTL/ Chorus and Sky, who between them pay millions of euros each year to the BBC to carry their channels, which are hugely popular with Irish viewers.

They’re not impressed at the prospect of the Beeb being available for free on the public service DTT multiplex, a move that could potentially cost them subscribers.

This might also put the kibosh on the viability of a commercial DTT multiplex, which the Eircom-led OneVision consortium is trying to construct.

It would be hard for a commercial DTT operator to compete with a free-to-air DTT service that already offers RTÉ, TV3, TG4 and the BBC channels.

A source close to OneVision said this could potentially drive a “horse and coach” through its business plan.

Denis O’Brien has already walked away from DTT, handing back his licence last year.

Ryan’s deal might result in OneVision going the same way, not to mention some stiffly-worded correspondence from NTL/Chorus and Sky.

© 2010 The Irish Times

tlaavtech · 05-02-2010 09:03AM

Ryan’s deal might result in OneVision going the same way, not to mention some stiffly-worded correspondence from NTL/Chorus and Sky.

I did wonder how long it would be before Sky/NTL had a bit of a hissy fit

Of course, if there was no commercial operator, this would simplify things enormously. RTE would be left holding the bill (or should I say we the taxpayer), but besides that, do we really need subscription DTT? We now have plenty bandwidth to put BBC 1-4 & News on one transponder, and still have plenty room for IrelandHD and BBCHD on another. If you need subscription channels, go to NTL and Sky. We would also have room for the Oireachtas channel at no cost assuming that you use the streaming feed - In fact you would have room for all the streaming feeds!!

No commercial DTT, no loss

slegs · 05-02-2010 09:10AM

tlaavtech wrote: »

I did wonder how long it would be before Sky/NTL had a bit of a hissy fit

Thats like a complient to Eamon Ryan from Sky. When have Sky ever felt some pressure in Ireland from real market changing competition.

channelsurfer2 · 05-02-2010 09:13AM

(posted this in the boxer/one vision thread) errrrrrr. correct me if I am wrong here but arent they already widely available free to air here via satellite???? as for sky complaining sure they are a foreign company broadcasting into a soverign nation which they refuse to pay any VAT on except for installs and always use the line that they are not regulated by the irish government but by the UK.... tough luck... I for one wont be crying over their spilt milk....thats my rant over....

the artist previously known as channelsurfer...:)

tlaavtech · 05-02-2010 09:16AM

Just thought of another advantage of no commercial DTT - We can get full-res RTE (720X576) instead of 544X576 and as much bandwith as they like for beautiful picture quality

slegs · 05-02-2010 09:23AM

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

(posted this in the boxer/one vision thread) errrrrrr. correct me if I am wrong here but arent they already widely available free to air here via satellite???? as for sky complaining sure they are a foreign company broadcasting into a soverign nation which they refuse to pay any VAT on except for installs and always use the line that they are not regulated by the irish government but by the UK.... tough luck... I for one wont be crying over their spilt milk....thats my rant over....

the artist previously known as channelsurfer...:)

Not sure but I believe NTL have to pay BBC for rights and while BBC is FTA on sat there must be some cost for officially having them on the EPG on Sky.

Antenna · 05-02-2010 09:30AM

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

as for sky complaining

Who said they were complaining?
Surely it really doesn't make any difference to Sky at all?? . BBC are FTA on satellite, BBC1 and BBC2 continue to be available on the EPG of a Sky box if you cancel SKy after all - and the other BBCs in 'Other Channels' - as before.

The reality is that it would be TV3 etc that would be complaining.

No one has explained how transmission of BBC on Irish DTT would be paid for?

If its paid for out of the licence fee, many would say surely the same should be done for TV3 and other Ireland based broadcasters??

tlaavtech · 05-02-2010 09:31AM

I could be wrong, but I believe that Sky have to carry BBC in the UK for legal reasons. They carry BBC in Ireland for commercial reasons, and I'm not sure that the BBC pay to be carried on the EPG here, because if they did they would probably have BBC3 and BBC4 carried on the EPG too, which they do not.

They do not carry ITV EPG here, because ITV don't pay for the privilige. This goes to prove how key BBC1 and BBC2 are to the acceptance of a "Package" - Just watch the people dump Sky!

channelsurfer2 · 05-02-2010 10:12AM

i think its 2.50 for bbc 1 and 2 per month that sky pay.this was the charge at the time when they went on the sky epg that was reported... the article says that sky and ntl are not happy therefore draw your own conclusions re complaining.....sky want bbc to pay them for bbc3 and 4 to go on the epg when the reality is that ntl pay bbc worldwide for them on their epg so it aint gonna happen...bbc being available via aerial is a good step..

sesswhat · 05-02-2010 10:39AM

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

i think its 2.50 for bbc 1 and 2 per month that sky pay.this was the charge at the time when they went on the sky epg that was reported... the article says that sky and ntl are not happy therefore draw your own conclusions re complaining.....sky want bbc to pay them for bbc3 and 4 to go on the epg when the reality is that ntl pay bbc worldwide for them on their epg so it aint gonna happen...bbc being available via aerial is a good step..

Always a good thing. Technically, it should not really worry Sky as they have enough in their armoury to counter it, by removing extra charges for HD for example. They should be far more worried about Freesat but they will be very careful not to bring up that subject to journalists. After all, Freesat boxes are available more cheaply than Irish DTT boxes and more and more TVs will come with both built in.

The bigger threat this agreement has for Sky is to bring the whole subject into the public eye. At the moment the majority of Sky subscribers seem to be blissfully unaware of the range of channels available to them by just removing their Irish cards.

Elmo · 05-02-2010 10:47AM

Antenna wrote: »

The reality is that it would be TV3 etc that would be complaining.

No one has explained how transmission of BBC on Irish DTT would be paid for?

If its paid for out of the licence fee, many would say surely the same should be done for TV3 and other Ireland based broadcasters??

The BBC don't carry advertising hence TV3 don't care. If RTÉ and TG4 are put on Freeview for free in NI and BBC NI is put on SaorView in the south then it is just a simple trade between the Networks.

TV3 would have a problem with UTV on SaorView and UTV with TV3 on FreeView, due to the near identical schedules and advertising. UTV will have issues with RTÉ and TG4 on FreeView in NI since both will take advertising away from the NI market. (Not that they will ever mention that they have always done that this side of the boarder).

Anyway TV3 and TG4 don't pay all that much for transmission unlike RTÉ who are left with most of the bill.

i think its 2.50 for bbc 1 and 2 per month that sky pay.this was the charge at the time when they went on the sky epg that was reported

Possibly for all of the UK. How much are sky and UPC paying RTÉ, TV3 and TG4?

tlaavtech · 05-02-2010 10:53AM

Elmo wrote: »

Possibly for all of the UK. How much are sky and UPC paying RTÉ, TV3 and TG4?

That's the real joke - AFAIK, RTE pay Sky!

Elmo · 05-02-2010 10:56AM

tlaavtech wrote: »

That's the real joke - AFAIK, RTE pay Sky!

There is the punch line. And sky are laugh all the way to the bank as are UPC even if RTE et aren't paying them to be on their EPG.

BarryM · 05-02-2010 11:24AM

I don't recall anybody noting these two words in the release - "help ensure:"

Someone mentioned Sir Humphrey, that is typical Sir H speak.....

The IT piece on the hissy fit is nearer the reality, the pols will run a mile from 'interfering' with the cable/satellite providers, as much because they need the publicity they provide as not wanting to be seen to 'dilute' the irish content of tv deliberately by providing a means for the bbc to be delivered country wide. Can't you just imagine the reaction of the irish language enthusiasts??

The only reason that the deflectors have not been closed down (to the benefit of the MMDS et al) was a court case which threw out the matter because of poor drafting of the rules.

Here is an opportunity to rationalise the availability of tv on a choice basis, will they take it? will they hell. The license would have to be altered, rte could/should not get all the revenue if they, through their subsidiary, were carrying the signals; the intellectual property issues would keep all the boys in the law library occupied and in funds for years; the language lobby and their friends would raise hell..... need I go on??

Bye, Barry

Antenna · 05-02-2010 11:53AM

Elmo wrote: »

The BBC don't carry advertising hence TV3 don't care. If RTÉ and TG4 are put on Freeview for free in NI and BBC NI is put on SaorView in the south then it is just a simple trade between the Networks.

Its nonsense to talk of a 'simple trade'

Firstly the costs of transmitting BBC on FTA DTT in the republic is going to be considerably greater than the other way round (due to the size and often difficult terrain of the republic compared to NI). Has anyone made up a projected cost of a nationwide DTT transmission of each BBC channel with reasonable definition and how and who pays RTE NL for this?

What is in it for the BBC to be available FTA on Irish DTT, unless they are going to get a slice of the Irish licence fee, or paid otherwise?

Ryan is announcing something which they know full well cannot proceed as claimed. The reality is more like that BBC Northern Ireland produced programmes would be broadcast in the schedule of an "RTE Extra" type DTT channel and thats it for BBC on Irish FTA DTT.

Sam Russell · 05-02-2010 12:02PM

Antenna wrote: »

Its nonsense to talk of a 'simple trade'

Firstly the costs of transmitting BBC on FTA DTT in the republic is going to be considerably greater than the other way round (due to the size and often difficult terrain of the republic compared to NI). Has anyone made up a projected cost of a nationwide DTT transmission of each BBC channel with reasonable definition and how and who pays RTE NL for this?

What is in it for the BBC to be available FTA on Irish DTT, unless they are going to get a slice of the Irish licence fee, or paid otherwise?

Ryan is announcing something which they know full well cannot proceed as claimed. The reality is more like that BBC Northern Ireland produced programmes would be broadcast in the schedule of an "RTE Extra" type DTT channel and thats it for BBC on Irish FTA DTT.

This is a political announcement, not a commercial one. The British Government already pays 60% or so of the cost of the NI ecconomy directly. The British Goverment could get the BBC to do anything they wanted to as they are under political control at this level, the BBC World Service is already paid for by the British Foreign Office and has been for years. There is nothing to stop the British Government funding the whole lot. Afterall, Irish Lights were paid for by the British Government until Maggie found out!

Wait and see, it can go anyway you like to think.

The whole cost of DTT four muxes is less than the current cost of analogue. Much of RTNL income after ASO will come from outside TV.

marclt · 05-02-2010 12:06PM

I think it's best if we stick as closely to what has been said. If BBC1&2 NI are to be made available down south, I don't see how suddenly their locally originated programmes will now appear on some additonal, specially created channel.

I'm no expert but if the mux is transmitting, does it make it any cheaper to broadcast the mux at half capacity? The inclusion of these channels presumably will be on a mux already carrying Irish PSB content. The cost in the north will involve running a totally new mux to accomodate the three additional channels. I can't see any existing channel wanting to give up their space.

What will be interesting is the effect on the programme schedules and cross border programme production that has occurred so frequently in the past.

slegs · 05-02-2010 12:15PM

I would agree Marclt. The only extra cost would be in the links to transmit the channels to RTENLs central distribtution hub (or whatever its called). After that the infrastructure and MUX space are already available. I would imagine that RTE and BBC NI already have transmission links in place due to the amount of shared activity there would be in all Ireland TV. If that was the case then the core infrastructure is already there and would just need to be expanded.

Antenna · 05-02-2010 12:28PM

marclt wrote: »

If BBC1&2 NI are to be made available down south, I don't see how suddenly their locally originated programmes will now appear on some additonal, specially created channel.

What I speculated was that BBC1, and 2 would end up NOT being available on Irish Saorview (FTA DTT), and the most you could hope for is some BBC NI programming in the schedule of an additional RTE digital channel.

slegs wrote: »

The only extra cost would be in the links to transmit the channels to RTENLs central distribtution hub (or whatever its called).

eh, do the DTT transmitters run on 'Fresh Air' ?

marclt wrote: »

I'm no expert but if the mux is transmitting, does it make it any cheaper to broadcast the mux at half capacity?

thats like saying that a bus operator should invite some people to travel for free so as to fill up empty seats whilst other passengers pay a hefty cost which is effectively also paying for the passengers invited on for free

marclt · 05-02-2010 12:40PM

Antenna wrote: »

What I speculated was that BBC1, and 2 would end up NOT being available on Irish Saorview (FTA DTT), and the most you could hope for is some BBC NI programming inthe schedule of an additional RTE digital channel.

I understand what you're saying, I just think it isn't going to be that easy to schedule, procure. There'd probably be some rights issue between the broadcasters unless a new, shared channel was created. That will cost a few bob!

Antenna wrote: »

eh, do the DTT transmitters run on 'Fresh Air' ?

No.... and there will be a 'cost' associated with running a channel or two. But, the infrastructure is there, the costs of broadcasting digital are much reduced - a fifth of analogue roughly per mux. Within that mux you can squeeze in half a dozen channels.

What I am saying is that if RTE are already broadcasting and the space is available within their PSB mux, then the cost of adding the BBC Channels is lower than starting from scratch.

RTE realise that their channels alone are not a big enough draw for people to go out and buy decoders. Adding BBC1 and 2, gives it the edge. IF OneVision collapses, and the increasing delay gives me that impression, then RTE and UPC can have a crack with EasyTV.

A good, solid free package will entice viewers, add on some high quality paid for content and you have a very good package. The market for this will come from those who don't wish to pay Sky or cable, and those with more than one tv per house.

Government agreement: Free-To-Air RTE in NI, BBC in RoI on DTT platform

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