Government agreement: Free-To-Air RTE in NI, BBC in RoI on DTT platform

dfdream

All,

Ye are loosing the run of yourselves.

Its a cheap shot of irish politicians taking praise for a cop out in providing a digital tv service thats standard in other countries.

We dont have digital and other countries have HD and looking at terestrial Super HD.

Trying to get a free deal on bbc channels to make it look like the digital revolution is happening in ireland.

Wow we might have 2 extra channels in standard def.

It would be more in their line to put irish channels FTA on satellite now and deal with the digital terestrial in its own time.

At least then people could get lidl/aldi/maplin receivers and have digital irish channels FTA.

Its always the same with them they dont want to give the small guy anything but dont think twice about giving €100s of millions of natural resources.

I think we should park this one and come back to it in 10 years time.

Freesat type setup with irish channels is the utopia for FTA and it would cost the irish gov nothing.


Its like the broadband debate all over again.

Sam Russell

slegs wrote: »

Will that definitely be the case in NI. Are all Freeview channels in the north going DVB-T2? Would be nothing technically stopping Freeview in the north retransmitting in MPEG2.

Nothing is definite. The mention that the STB will have to be taken into account.

i)Sharing information in the context of digital transition information campaigns and on digital transition generally
ii)Facilitating the ongoing spectrum coordination
iii)Facilitating the actions set out above in relation to all-island availability of Television Services
iv)Facilitating the sharing of information around set top box standards and other technology
v)Exploring options in relation to the reciprocal sharing of digital radio services.

I take this as meaning that STB will have to be compatible. Given they are going to go T2/MPEG4 in 2012 on at least one mux, they could decide to go on more that one mux. That would be small problem but not the end of the world.

mrdtv2010

slegs wrote: »

Will that definitely be the case in NI. Are all Freeview channels in the north going DVB-T2? Would be nothing technically stopping Freeview in the north retransmitting in MPEG2.

The compatibility issue is mentioned in the footnote of the MoU. Note that at DSO NI main transmitters will radiate five MPEG2 Freeview muxes and one MPEG4 DVB-T2 mux, just like every other UK main station. This is the configuration which will start rolling out on the Welsh stations this year beginning with Blaen-Plwyf on 24 March. There is increasing speculation that the UK COM operators will want to switch to T2 because it gives you 40Mb/s instead of 24Mb/s in an 8Mhz UHF channel. It is also possible when the Ofcom pay-tv determination is issued in March that the Sky Picnic pay service may be licensed,subject to commercial and technical conditions. A higher capacity pay service offer can afford to bankroll more expensive receivers and, of course, offer more SDTV channels than an MPEG2 or MPEG4 T1 proposition. The spring is going to be very interesting...

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not a lot of point broadcasting it with adverts in competition with the same thing on a different channel at the same time without adverts. They could show it at a different time I suppose, but not much point of that either.

Not a lot of point broadcasting it atm. For 18 years no channel this side of the boarder carried it. There are better BBC shows.

sesswhat

Sam Russell wrote: »

iv)Facilitating the sharing of information around set top box standards and other technology

Could this simply be referring to those currently receiving anologue through spillover? They will need to know what equipment to get if they are to continue doing so with DTT.

Sam Russell

sesswhat wrote: »

Could this simply be referring to those currently receiving anologue through spillover? They will need to know what equipment to get if they are to continue doing so with DTT.

I would think it is much more. Why bother with the spillover, you do not get a document like this over spillover. I think it means a bit of a rethink on STBs. RTENL have been very quiet for a long time on STBs, only recently appointing a testing lab. All along they have been saying 'No equipment should be purchased until launch'. Well, I wonder why!

If they specify the same box as Freeview HD, then the second Irish PSB could be T2, and NI could also put a second PSB to T2 to carry the RTE/TG4 and BBC HD signals, and allow extra capacity.

It is also possible, but unlikely, the STBs would be subsidised.:rolleyes:

slegs

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think it is much more. Why bother with the spillover, you do not get a document like this over spillover. I think it means a bit of a rethink on STBs. RTENL have been very quiet for a long time on STBs, only recently appointing a testing lab. All along they have been saying 'No equipment should be purchased until launch'. Well, I wonder why!

If they specify the same box as Freeview HD, then the second Irish PSB could be T2, and NI could also put a second PSB to T2 to carry the RTE/TG4 and BBC HD signals, and allow extra capacity.

It is also possible, but unlikely, the STBs would be subsidised.:rolleyes:

Very unlikely in the extreme that there will be any Irish DTT DVB-T2 mux within 3-5 years. Also I would think RTE will be on a DVB-T/MPEG2 mux in the north for maximum exposure. Freeview HD will be niche for a couple of years yet and DVB-T2 will be used for HD only as far as i can see..

I just dont see the correlation between RTE having to be on a DVB-T2 mux in the north because its MPEG4 in the south. They are different systems and there is no technical restriction on the north to use MPEG4 because its being broadcast that way in the south.

DVB-T2 is in its infancy for the UK and not even on the radar medium term for Ireland. This stuff is confusing enough for most people without DVB-T2 constantly being dragged in as an apparent red herring.

iv)Facilitating the sharing of information around set top box standards and other technology

This is about sharing of information and does not imply anywhere a move to new standards or common technology.

Elmo

slegs wrote: »

DVB-T2 is in its infancy for the UK and not even on the radar medium term for Ireland. This stuff is confusing enough for most people without DVB-T2 constantly being dragged in as an apparent red herring.

MPEG 2 system used in UK
MPEG 4 currently a test system in Ireland

I assume the network in NI can retransmit RTÉ on MPEG2 and RTÉ NL could transmit BBC on MPEG4. I don't see a problem.

Now explain what DVB-T2 is?

slegs

Elmo wrote: »

MPEG 2 system used in UK
MPEG 4 currently a test system in Ireland

I assume the network in NI can retransmit RTÉ on MPEG2 and RTÉ NL could transmit BBC on MPEG4. I don't see a problem.

Now explain what DVB-T2 is?

Huh? Presume this is sarcasm although its hard to tell

I was referring to post 37 where DVB-T2 was mentioned as somehow being relevant to this announcment.

Elmo

DVB-T2 is HD version of Freeview, in the most basic of terms.

MPEG2 and 4 are codecs.

Now will when DVB-T2 is fully rolled out will people need to upgrade their DVB-T TV sets?

Sam Russell

I think that the use of MPEG4 in NI will only be on the new Freeview HD mux. If there is a shortage of space, they may put the extra channels (RTE) on it. The spirit of trhe memorandum would be that it would be MPEG2 on the PSB mux, but what would be displaced? In Ireland, there is plenty of space at the moment and no need to go to DVB-T2, but the mention of common STBs would suggest that they will look at recommending the UK T2/HD boxes, possibly only for boarder areas. [That is what I meant!]

The Cush

slegs wrote: »

DVB-T2 is in its infancy for the UK and not even on the radar medium term for Ireland. This stuff is confusing enough for most people without DVB-T2 constantly being dragged in as an apparent red herring.


This is about sharing of information and does not imply anywhere a move to new standards or common technology.

Agree 100% with that.

In Ireland DVB-T2 won't be considered until after ASO, for possible use on the two further multiplexes.

As the 3 channels won't be available until switchover in NI, thats over two and a half years away, if they can't be accomotated on an existing MPEG-2 mux then possibly the new (Digital Dividend interleaved spectrum) 7th mux might carry them in T2 if enough spare spectrum can be found. T2 specification receivers will be ubiquitous in the UK by then.

Alternatively the UK Digital Dividend Channels 31-37 have not been ruled out for DTT and are in the gift of the UK government whereas Channels 61-69 are allocated to mobile services.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that the use of MPEG4 in NI will only be on the new Freeview HD mux. If there is a shortage of space, they may put the extra channels (RTE) on it.

Right now they don't have enough space on the HD Mux for Channel 5 and are awiating improvements in multiplexing technology to carry 4 HD channels.

mrdtv2010

dfdream wrote: »

All,

Ye are loosing the run of yourselves.

Its a cheap shot of irish politicians taking praise for a cop out in providing a digital tv service thats standard in other countries.

We dont have digital and other countries have HD and looking at terestrial Super HD.

Trying to get a free deal on bbc channels to make it look like the digital revolution is happening in ireland.

Wow we might have 2 extra channels in standard def.

It would be more in their line to put irish channels FTA on satellite now and deal with the digital terestrial in its own time.

At least then people could get lidl/aldi/maplin receivers and have digital irish channels FTA.

Its always the same with them they dont want to give the small guy anything but dont think twice about giving €100s of millions of natural resources.

I think we should park this one and come back to it in 10 years time.

Freesat type setup with irish channels is the utopia for FTA and it would cost the irish gov nothing.


Its like the broadband debate all over again.

The cynical view, but sounding a much needed note of economic realism on this reflector? I wonder...

mrdtv2010

The Cush wrote: »

Agree 100% with that.

In Ireland DVB-T2 won't be considered until after ASO, for possible use on the two further multiplexes.

As the 3 channels won't be available until switchover in NI, thats over two and a half years away, if they can't be accomotated on an existing MPEG-2 mux then possibly the new (Digital Dividend interleaved spectrum) 7th mux might carry them in T2 if enough spare spectrum can be found. T2 specification receivers will be ubiquitous in the UK by then.

Alternatively the UK Digital Dividend Channels 31-37 have not been ruled out for DTT and are in the gift of the UK government whereas Channels 61-69 are allocated to mobile services.



Right now they don't have enough space on the HD Mux for Channel 5 and are awiating improvements in multiplexing technology to carry 4 HD channels.

Four HDTV channels are being broadcast in the London & Granada areas on the test transmissions at data rates of 9.5 Mb/s in MPEG4 DVB-T2. Stand by for a commercial announcement this Friday.

slegs

mrdtv, is there any chance you could start one thread on DVB-T2 instead of entering every thread with a DVB-T2 slant.

This particular topic has very little if anything to do with T2 and yet here we are

Not being smart but it may make more sense to discuss the merits or not of T2 for Irish DTT on a single new thread.

mrdtv2010

slegs wrote: »

mrdtv, is there any chance you could start one thread on DVB-T2 instead of entering every thread with a DVB-T2 slant.

This particular topic has very little if anything to do with T2 and yet here we are

Not being smart but it may make more sense to discuss the merits or not of T2 for Irish DTT on a single new thread.

Actually the more interesting issue is this: when will Irish DTT ever start? We've been waiting 12 years. If you just wanted FTA simulcast of Irish PSB services as a stopgap measure you could start tomorrow with MPEG4 T1 which replicates the analogue offer with much better QoS. But nobody seems able ever, ever to make that commitment... Sky must be rubbing their hands with glee at every delay while there is no Irish Freesat ever in sight. What a mess!!

marclt

I think we need to be realistic about what this might herald. On analogue, all the Good Friday agreement gave viewers in NI was a low powered TG4 frequency aimed at a specific part of Belfast. Not exactly what many might have interpreted in the beginning. RTE's availability in the north has been through high powered analogue signals beamed in....

So this wording tends to suggest a bit more. It will probably mean in practice that RTE will have some space on the 7th multiplex on main transmitters in the North due to a lack of space on existing multiplexes. Space on freeview is a valuable commodity. It may not include any space on relay sites.

There is lots of space down south... there was a plan for two PSB muxes originally... perhaps this will be the case again. I'm sure that if OneVision doesn't come up trumps any time soon, then TV3 will want to have 3e on a PSB mux. Setanta may also want to fill a slot. Newstalk and Today FM won't want to miss out on taking up space either, not if RTE are the only radio stations on saorview.

The Cush

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Four HDTV channels are being broadcast in the London & Granada areas on the test transmissions at data rates of 9.5 Mb/s in MPEG4 DVB-T2. Stand by for a commercial announcement this Friday.

OK, originally when 5 were granted the final slot Ofcom didn't expect the space to be available until end of 2010. That considered two SD channels in NI on that mux probably won't be possible.

Souriau

When the two goverments agreements stated that the two digital systems to be share and standardise.
Does this mean both NI and Eire will have 1 approval STB format that is suitable in both area?
i.e MPEG4.
I have a feeling that maybe they will have a STB that is suitable for all Ireland, maybe the NI mux will be change to MPEG4 to give extra capacity.
If anyone in the north have Freeview and want to watch RTE, they may have to buy a new STB, Freeview STB at the moment is MPEG2, so could be a Freeview Ireland STB with MPEG4 T1 and Freeview Ireland HD will T2, depend on customer choices.
The sooner they sort out the agree format STB, the better. and the new logo for all Ireland.
Also it would help if the main PSB mux is SFN all over, so coverage to the maximum...
Just a guess...

lawhec

Interesting memorandum. It makes sense for the switch-over on both sides of the border to be co-operative so that an All-Ireland plan can go smoothly. It's been done before when the FM Radio Band was reorganised in the late 80's on both sides. Obviously the approach has been for a trade-off, while the availability of RTÉ in Northern Ireland has a political element to it, BBC in the Republic has been more about the expansion of channel choice. One doesn't appear to be given on paper without another.

Coming in a little late to the thread, I would assume that the retransmissions would be free-to-air. The memorandum is vague, but from the northern end if RTÉ was only going to be made available on a pay basis, there will still be plenty who will put up the ironmongery southwards and still get it FTA where possible. Ditto the reverse.

The domestic BBC channels are only distributed for UK licence-fee payers (at least for terrestrial viewing) so an arrangement with BBC worldwide would need to be put in place if BBC NI domestic services are to be rolled out on DTT in the Republic. It isn't clear wherever this means it is just BBC 1 & 2 NI or if it will replace all of the BBC DTT offering currently broadcasting in Northern Ireland (except maybe Parliament). Obviously the BBC cannot make money out of this via advertisements, one possible way however might include the carriage of BBC World News alongside the domestic services with local advertisements during breaks.

UTV could in theory object, but unlikely in practice. It would be pointed out to them that they (in public at least) did not object to the presence of RTÉ being made available to cable (Virgin) and satellite (Sky) customers in Northern Ireland, therefore the addition of RTÉ services on a free-to-air basis terrestrially would be no effective defence (something about bolting a stable door) and RTÉ's right to broadcast would be protected under the EU Television without Frontiers directive. UTV would also run the risk of being counter-objected by RTÉ (with support from TV3) in the same manner in the Republic which in a worst-case scenario for UTV could see them being removed from cable and MMDS platforms. It would be a case of being careful what you wish for.

An Ofcom commissioned Arqiva document states that there is room for at least one additional multiplex from each of the three main transmitter sites in Northern Ireland (Divis, Limavady & Brougher Mountain). While these are intended for "local", these could be made available for RTÉ to broadcast with approval. It would be unlikely that other than a Divis multiplex there would be any desire for a local-run multiplex the same way they are being advertised in Britain (Is Channel M's multiplex on Winter Hill on air yet?). RTÉ could help pay for this coverage by leasing out spare bandwidth to other broadcasters that don't have carriage on any of the three UK COM multiplexes - the international news channels like DW-TV, France 24 etc. would probably be the most interested for the audience available.

In the Irish Republic there is spare multiplex allocation's available if required for BBC carriage though it may not be available until all analogue services are closed depending if One Vision ever does launch. If only BBC1 & 2 were carried, carriage on the current RTÉNL Multiplex may prove sufficient.

There is a possibility that DVB-T2 could be used in Northern Ireland for a MUX7 but it would only really be needed if the channels were carried as HD channels. If they were just being transmitted as SD then DVB-T MPEG2 would be fine for as long as it remains in tandem with other multiplexes. Current UK DTT broadcasting policy is for DVB-T MPEG2 for SD channels, DVB-T2 MPEG4 for HD. No point blurring lines.

If the Conservatives gain a majority in the next Westminster elections, I would say they have plenty of other things to be worrying about rather than try to cut into an international (and exceptional) agreement involving only a small part of the UK. It's not an effective issue for them as I can see.

I reckon the reason UTV and TV3 are not mentioned is that they are commercial channels with public service missions stipulated in their licences - BBC and RTÉ are fully fledged public service broadcasters though they achieve this in different ways.

Whoever suggested to forget about DTT in the Irish Republic and have RTÉ FTA on satellite - it's been long debated on these forums, RTÉ Free-to-air via satellite is a non runner. Cost of rights for imported programmes shown on RTÉ broadcasting to Northern Ireland is one matter, to cover beyond that into Britain and parts of mainland Europe is not practical, not to mention that some programming for cable and satellite viewers in Northern Ireland is blocked out - on a free-to-air basis, this would affect all viewers. Finally, RTÉ effectively transmits for free on Astra 2D with carriage paid for by Sky, they are at their helm.

My general line of thinking is similar to marclt stated about bringing some realism to potential plans, and I would say that the agreement on technical standards would see both the north and south in the long term converge to having DVB-T2 MPEG4 HD services (with some SD services for legacy broadcasters and interactive services) say at the end of this decade but that current DSO plans at least in Northern Ireland are too far advanced for convergence to be achieved in the short term. Remember that a STB or an IDTV which can decode MPEG4 video can do MPEG2 quite happily too.

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

When the two goverments agreements stated that the two digital systems to be share and standardise.
Does this mean both NI and Eire will have 1 approval STB format that is suitable in both area?
i.e MPEG4.
I have a feeling that maybe they will have a STB thst is suitable for all Ireland, maybe the NI mux will be change to MPEG4 to give extra capacity.
If anyone in the north have Freeview and want to watch RTE, they may have to buy a new STB, Freeview STB at the moment is MPEG2, so could be a Freeview Ireland STB with MPEG4 T1 and Freeview Ireland HD will T2, depend on customer choices.
The sooner they sort out the agree format STB, the better. and the new logo for all Ireland.
Also it would help if the main PSB mux is SFN all over, so coverage to the maximum...
Just a guess...

Once DVB-T2 receivers are launched we are half way to a common standard receiver (MPEG2/MPEG4 and DVB-T/DVB-T2).

The problem with receivers today is if they receive transmission from two different transmitters within a country or across a border the duplicate channels or cross border channels are automatically placed in the 800's, no easy way to mix channels in the epg from different transmitters or countries. In Wales I believe some viewers would prefer to receive their tv from an England transmitter and I believe they are advised to manually enter the frequency channel they require or disconnect the aerial from their receiver while scanning the Welsh frequencies and reconnect in the region of the English frequencies (not very user friendly). I believe the UK situation is being looked at by the experts.

If this problem was solved a common receiver to both D-Book and Nordig profile is possible (both profiles support MPEG2/MPEG4 and DVB-T/DVB-T2 and MHEG-5). It will be for the manufacturers to make available receivers that meet the requirements of both standards and that offers assisted or auto re-tuning to allow users to handle storing of duplicated or different regional channels simply.

Can't see a multiplex going MPEG-4 until the DVB-T2 multiplex is launched in 2012.

In any case ASO in not planned until at least 2012 in both jurisdictions so analogue overspill will be around for a while yet.

dubmick

I wonder will this agreement allow us to use the BBC's iPlayer? Just a thought

Minstrel27

dubmick wrote: »

I wonder will this agreement allow us to use the BBC's iPlayer? Just a thought

I do not see why it would.

lucernarian

Allowing the BBC iPlayer to work here could be a cost-effective way of showing UK programmes FTA in the Republic of Ireland. I don't think it could be completely ruled out.

tlaavtech

It surprises me that no one has brought up the topic of the affect this will have on the Commercial side of DTT. Until now, the thinking was that the BBC's & ITV's would be the key to the success of the One Vision platform. We now have a Government pledge to carry BBC's on the FTA system, so I would see this as a blow to One Vision, NTL and Sky - and a brilliant development all round!!

The big question on my mind is not the carrier format (MPEG2/4), but one of timescale. Saorview could start to carry the BBC's tomorrow if they wanted to, but I fear that they will want to wait until a simultaneous launch on both sides of the border. However, now that the cat is out of the bag, I can't see Saorview launching without the BBC's - be it a soft or hard launch.

If they can get the BBC on soon, I can see a big push on the DTT front in the next few months. So who will push DTT without a commmercial arm? Electrical retailers are desperate to sell anything at the moment, so once there is a STB/TV with a Saorview sticker on it, they will push like crazy. With the general downturn, the pitch will be that you can get rid of your Sky/NTL subs and get an equally good picture from an ariel for a once-off payment. No ITV? TV3 carries most of the same stuff, so no loss there.

At the same time, since Saorview makes a nice package as is, it will put pressure on One Vision to launch at the same time as Saorview to try and make sure that people get a box with a slot for their card!!

I know that I am a bit of an optomist, but the threads needs to celebrate this development, and not just moan about how it will never happen!

slegs

tlaavtech wrote: »

It surprises me that no one has brought up the topic of the affect this will have on the Commercial side of DTT. Until now, the thinking was that the BBC's & ITV's would be the key to the success of the One Vision platform. We now have a Government pledge to carry BBC's on the FTA system, so I would see this as a blow to One Vision, NTL and Sky - and a brilliant development all round!!

The big question on my mind is not the carrier format (MPEG2/4), but one of timescale. Saorview could start to carry the BBC's tomorrow if they wanted to, but I fear that they will want to wait until a simultaneous launch on both sides of the border. However, now that the cat is out of the bag, I can't see Saorview launching without the BBC's - be it a soft or hard launch.

If they can get the BBC on soon, I can see a big push on the DTT front in the next few months. So who will push DTT without a commmercial arm? Electrical retailers are desperate to sell anything at the moment, so once there is a STB/TV with a Saorview sticker on it, they will push like crazy. With the general downturn, the pitch will be that you can get rid of your Sky/NTL subs and get an equally good picture from an ariel for a once-off payment. No ITV? TV3 carries most of the same stuff, so no loss there.

At the same time, since Saorview makes a nice package as is, it will put pressure on One Vision to launch at the same time as Saorview to try and make sure that people get a box with a slot for their card!!

I know that I am a bit of an optomist, but the threads needs to celebrate this development, and not just moan about how it will never happen!

I cant see this holding up the Saorview launch. It is trivial to add and remove channels at any stage to the service. There would be no reason to wait bar the current cost/commercial hold ups as well documented. In fact I would say that BBC1 and BBC2 will be there immediately on launch as the agreement is the biggest step, costs here will be traded off on each side and only arise when they come to pass. For RTENL there wont be much extra cost as they have the capacity now. In the north it may be different as they will need to find space for RTE1/2 on their MUXes.

SRB

If the restrictions on the DTT signals from the Republic were relaxed - how much of Northern Ireland would be covered ? Kippure and Three Rock are watchable along the Down Coast at the moment, if Clermont came on high powered would there be a need for the services to be carried on the NI system or would the overspill be enough ? I know areas like the North East coast would have issues, but couple of low powered DTT relays could sort that out.

tlaavtech

slegs wrote: »

I cant see this holding up the Saorview launch. It is trivial to add and remove channels at any stage to the service. There would be no reason to wait bar the current cost/commercial hold ups as well documented. In fact I would say that BBC1 and BBC2 will be there immediately on launch as the agreement is the biggest step, costs here will be traded off on each side and only arise when they come to pass. For RTENL there wont be much extra cost as they have the capacity now. In the north it may be different as they will need to find space for RTE1/2 on their MUXes.

I really hope that you are right!! I see the Saorview launch date as the end of 2011 quoted elsewhere as crazy - I suspect we will see Saorview before the Summer.

Elmo

UTV could in theory object, but unlikely in practice. It would be pointed out to them that they (in public at least) did not object to the presence of RTÉ being made available to cable (Virgin) and satellite (Sky) customers in Northern Ireland, therefore the addition of RTÉ services on a free-to-air basis terrestrially would be no effective defence (something about bolting a stable door) and RTÉ's right to broadcast would be protected under the EU Television without Frontiers directive. UTV would also run the risk of being counter-objected by RTÉ (with support from TV3) in the same manner in the Republic which in a worst-case scenario for UTV could see them being removed from cable and MMDS platforms. It would be a case of being careful what you wish for.

And they don't go around complaining that they are available to nearly 80% of households in the Republic and during the 1990's saw the republics audience as on of their main forms of income, or that they are now a major player in Irish Radio.

The right for foreign TV to broadcast terrestrial ???? AVWF/TVWF doesn't really state that. It just states that a government cannot prevent broadcasts from one member state into another via satellite, cable or other forms with greater capacity (of course when original written they were talking about Analogue services).

Digifriendly

SRB wrote: »

If the restrictions on the DTT signals from the Republic were relaxed - how much of Northern Ireland would be covered ? Kippure and Three Rock are watchable along the Down Coast at the moment, if Clermont came on high powered would there be a need for the services to be carried on the NI system or would the overspill be enough ? I know areas like the North East coast would have issues, but couple of low powered DTT relays could sort that out.

Good point . AFAIK Moville serves much of NE coast already, also some can receive Holywell Hill there. Much of Ballycastle (in a basin) is a black spot however. Even seen an aerial for Clermont Carn just south of Armoy!