Tri related splish splash notes

pgibbo · 02-02-2010 12:04PM

interested wrote: »

01/02/10 PM

1000 f/s warm up
5 * 200 f/s pull with paddles on 3
10 * 50 f/s on 50
300 stroke / swim down - 100 catchup, 100 ripple, 100 easy

2800

Easy enough session - felt strong on the pull and spritely enough on the 50's - in on 40 for all of them - working the turns and keeping stroke rate high.

LOL....your thread always makes me smile - 2800 an easy session. I wish!!

What's ripple?

interested · 02-02-2010 12:08PM

pgibbo wrote: »

LOL....your thread always makes me smile - 2800 an easy session. I wish!!

What's ripple?

sorry ... its the name I was given a stroke technique that encourages a high elbow on recover and pointing the fingers/hands to enter the water after recovery ...

as the arm recovers you 'ripple' the surface of the water with your finger tips

interested · 02-02-2010 09:51PM

02/02/10 PM

6 * 100's f/s on 1.35 warm up

800 f/s on 12
8 * 100 f/s on 1.30
60 seconds
600 f/s on 10
6 * 100 f/s on 1.30
60 seconds
400 f/s on 6
4 * 100 f/s on 1.30
200 easy swim down

4400

best session in a long time - no idea why - temperature of pool was nice and cool, had eaten as normal. Only thing different to normal was that Id sipped on some isotonic drink an hour or so before going to the pool. Came in on 11.10 for the 800 (5.40,5.30 a good negative split) which I was happy with and straight into the 100's on 1.30. Came in on 8.25 for the 600 and 5.30 for the 400. Also responded well to active rest in the past so pleased that finished the session strong.

Macanri · 02-02-2010 10:28PM

One word...AWESOME. Do not look at my training thread.

interested · 03-02-2010 08:08AM

^
thanks

03/02/10

400 f/s warm up
20 * 100 f/s pull with paddles on 1.30
100 easy

2500

Good strong session again this morning - just solid stuff. Holding 1.22/1.23 pace for 100's - comfortable all the way through set of 100's.

shotgunmcos · 03-02-2010 11:12AM

How much does the mileage play a part in the swim development? I know the Marthons lads all put down 65+ mile weeks, given how technical swimming is I was wondering about this...

You are hitting some very solid session in the pool lately, good stuff

pgibbo · 03-02-2010 11:53AM

interested wrote: »

02/02/10 PM

6 * 100's f/s on 1.35 warm up

800 f/s on 12
8 * 100 f/s on 1.30
60 seconds
600 f/s on 10
6 * 100 f/s on 1.30
60 seconds
400 f/s on 6
4 * 100 f/s on 1.30
200 easy swim down

4400

best session in a long time - no idea why - temperature of pool was nice and cool, had eaten as normal. Only thing different to normal was that Id sipped on some isotonic drink an hour or so before going to the pool. Came in on 11.10 for the 800 (5.40,5.30 a good negative split) which I was happy with and straight into the 100's on 1.30. Came in on 8.25 for the 600 and 5.30 for the 400. Also responded well to active rest in the past so pleased that finished the session strong.

WOW...that's some session. Looks like you're really trucking in the water. How's your run and bike going?

A question if I may. I was in the pool this morning and part of the set I was doing had 6x100 (50m drill, 50m swim). I am wondering if I would be beter doing 2 or 3 drills multiple times or 6 seperate drills? Probably a tough on to answer given you have never seen me swim but figured no harm in asking. Today I did the following drills:

Kick with fins, no board, hands out in front;
Tarzan - swimming with head out of water (I over rotate and have been told this helps stop that);
25 right arm only, 25 left arm only;
50 catch up;
50 finger tip drag (ripple);
50 with pull buoy;
50 with fins.

I was thinking afterwards that maybe I'd have been better off building muscle memory by doing 2 of the drills 3 times or 3 of them twice. Any thoughts? Cheers.

Before Christmas a colleague who is a good swimmer came to the pool and watched me swim. He reckoned tarzan and ripple while scraping thumb off torso were the 2 drills I should work on most. Probably just answered my own question but would interested on your thoughts.

interested · 03-02-2010 01:36PM

shotgunmcos wrote: »

How much does the mileage play a part in the swim development? I know the Marthons lads all put down 65+ mile weeks, given how technical swimming is I was wondering about this...

You are hitting some very solid session in the pool lately, good stuff

Good question and excuse the ramblings ...

swimming mileage v triathlon swimming mileage

imho, if you get two swimmers - say two identical twins with identical strokes etc since we're just chatting - and put them in a pool lane by lane - where one twin does 10 * 100's off 1.30 and the other does 60 * 100's off 1.30 - the percentage distance in mileage may / may not be directly proportional to their performance (time) lane by lane at a race over 1500 metres. IMHO - the guy doing 60 * 100's will have more fitness in the bag to lean on the pace in the last 600 metres and beat his twin. For me there is no silver bullet - the likes of Kieran Perkins or Grant Hackett dominated mens distance swimming for along time and I suspect they were logging some serious distances to achieve what they did.

But ... or BUT since its pretty big - everyone is different - its not just about doing the distances in the water each week and more about how the sets and sessions are constructed in addition to each individuals personal framework that facilitates them to compete.
You can be unlucky enough to catch a cold or virus at any time during the year - and doing 60 or 80 k a week wont be beneficial - it'll actually set you back etc.

Its probably similar for running with the distances they can log in preparation for an A-marathon - its a combination of quality and quantity the gives them the physical and mental confidences to push and push and push over the long distance events. Although (as I know from very painful experience at IM) a marathon takes alot longer than a 1500 or even a 3.8km swim

With regard to triathlon swimming mileage
- and again just my opinion
I think that (its entirely relative to the individual) at a certain distance per week the potential performance and time benefits to be gained from doing 5 swim sessions instead of 3 will depreciate - since the overall time for a triathlon is NOT based on your swim time (in non-drafting events - if a pro misses the first group coming out of the swim its effectively over since they have to expend lots and lots of energy to jump across on the bike to the lead group).

An example - two different people that do triathlons - both part time weekend warriors with real world responsibilities and limitations on time ...
Person A: swim p.b 25 mins for oly - swims 3 times a week, has a pretty efficient stroke and is comfortable in the sea and pool alike. Clocks 10k a week in the pool. Bike p.b is 1.04, Run p.b is 37.

Person B: swim p.b 33 mins for oly - swims 3 times a week, has a reasonable stroke in the pool but cant translated that to the sea. swims 3 times a week and clocks 5k a week in the pool. Bike p.b is 1.04, Run p.b is 37.

If both do a couple of extra sessions a week - imho the greater benefits will be experienced by Person B. In other words - the stronger swimmer probably wont see as good a return on their time in their overall triathlon time. Also, the perceived weaker swimmer has potentially more to benefit from using one of the additional sessions as a stroke session ...

Case in point - 3 swimmers were in a lane beside me recently - pretty sure they were triathletes - not leaving 5 seconds and doing 200's off 4.40. Only the guy up front got the full benefit of their time in the pool - and ALL of them could have benefitted from doing 10 mins stroke correction drills instead of doing the 200's. Its all about what you can get from your valuable time imho.

But whats 'a good swimmer' ?? how do each of us know what volume a week is enough to reach our best during an A-race ??

If I knew Id probably keep it to myself

I enjoy my swimming these days - for about a decade I wouldnt go near a pool. These days I use it as an active recovery from the other disciplines and something to take my mind off real world stuff - I enjoy participating in triathlons of all shapes and sizes.

My swim mileage per week is purely based on time restraints ... I swim with a group once a week for an hour and every now and then Id keep my better half company at the pool - I definitely have the capacity to swim more in a week but Im up to my eyes with real world stuff at the moment so ... I grab a swim when I can ... and try to add in some running and biking. Im still in base building mode in all of the sports - despite my lack of running or times Im doing in swimming .... its potentially another long season for me so ... the way I see it .. Im in no rush.

interested · 03-02-2010 01:51PM

pgibbo wrote: »

WOW...that's some session. Looks like you're really trucking in the water. How's your run and bike going?

I need to run a little more these days but havent had a chance to put many solid bike sessions together. One turbo session a week and one short hill session last weekend is no where near enough. The bike training will kick in during this month and during March. My personal experiences last year (based on my running) is that for me theres more risk of injury if I do long runs and long bikes during the same cycles or training periods. I dont need to go running any marathons until Sept / Oct so I dont see the need to risk injury.

That said - my running distances are pathetic based on the table - but it makes it pretty easy for me to spot my triathlon limiters

A question if I may. I was in the pool this morning and part of the set I was doing had 6x100 (50m drill, 50m swim). I am wondering if I would be beter doing 2 or 3 drills multiple times or 6 seperate drills? Probably a tough on to answer given you have never seen me swim but figured no harm in asking.

Today I did the following drills:

Kick with fins, no board, hands out in front;
Tarzan - swimming with head out of water (I over rotate and have been told this helps stop that);
25 right arm only, 25 left arm only;
50 catch up;
50 finger tip drag (ripple);
50 with pull buoy;
50 with fins.

I was thinking afterwards that maybe I'd have been better off building muscle memory by doing 2 of the drills 3 times or 3 of them twice. Any thoughts? Cheers.

Yeah - its hard to answer that - but from my own point of view I always found it more beneficial to work on one drill and one correction at a time. So instead of 100's do ...

6 * 50's finger tip drag (ripple)
3 * 50's swim (thinking about keeping a high elbow without finger dragging)
6 * 50's catch up
3 * 50's swim (thinking about stroke rate and long efficient pulls)

Rather than chopping and changing ... again - this is just my opinion without seeing your stroke.

Before Christmas a colleague who is a good swimmer came to the pool and watched me swim. He reckoned tarzan and ripple while scraping thumb off torso were the 2 drills I should work on most. Probably just answered my own question but would interested on your thoughts.

Yeah, think you have that one covered

- since its now feb you should ask him for another opinion ... hopefully you've corrected what he thought those drills would help you with by now.

Anyhow ....

interested · 04-02-2010 08:05AM

04/02/10

2 * 400 f/s on 6
8 * 200 f/s pull with paddles on 3
100 easy swim down

2500

Struggled a little this morning with tiredness - to be expected late on in the week - 200's were done comfortably on 3 but shoulders tired.

pgibbo · 04-02-2010 11:47AM

interested wrote: »

04/02/10

2 * 400 f/s on 6
8 * 200 f/s pull with paddles on 3
100 easy swim down

2500

Struggled a little this morning with tiredness - to be expected late on in the week - 200's were done comfortably on 3 but shoulders tired.

Good to see that you are human after all - and not a fish!

interested · 04-02-2010 12:50PM

pgibbo wrote: »

Good to see that you are human after all - and not a fish!

i really should change my login to ... but then ...

interested · 05-02-2010 08:05AM

05/01/10

1000 f/s warm up
16 * 100 f/s on 1.30
200 easy f/s swim down
50 back stroke to stretch shoulders out

2850

Not a lot of sleep again (despite 15 mins snooze on couch before heading for bed - theres gotta be some tele-porting device available at this stage) and feeling it a bit this morning. Set of 100's were supposed to be 4*(5*100 on 1.25) but didnt feel sharp enough from the start so switched it to a long mindf*ck set of 100's that were done repping around 1.26/1.25.

interested · 05-02-2010 09:05AM

nothing whatsoever to do with swimming but possibly the two coolest things ive seen on the web in an age

Both worth putting the headphones on for ...
The Kuroshio Sea aquarium

And ... this timelapse stuff ...that people who know about camera's do but has to do with the local life guards ...

anyhow - its funny friday

interested · 08-02-2010 08:03AM

08/02/10

1000 f/s warm up
6 * 200 f/s pull with paddles on 3
200 f/s swim down
50 backstroke

2450

first swim of the week and the first since friday so not feeling to fresh in the water. Usual monday stuff. 200's pull were just steady.

interested · 09-02-2010 08:18AM

09/02/10

500 f/s warm up
20 * 100's f/s pull with paddles on 1.30
100 easy swim down

2600

Felt better this morning - probably better sleep. Always used to feel better training tues mornings a lifetime ago. Did the 100's comfortably - thinking about keeping stroke long, rotation and proper elbow position of pull below water to maximise leverage.

pgibbo · 09-02-2010 10:30AM

I used paddles for the first time on Sunday evening at our Masters session. Man they're tough and really showed up the flaws in my pull technique. I used them for 4 x 50m as the coach doesn't want anyone picking up any shoulder injuries. Get used to using them first and then build up the sets is the approach being adopted from what I can tell. I felt I was going slower with them also. I would have assumed you should go faster.

Is using the paddles the best way to address underwater stroke mechanics?

interested · 09-02-2010 10:44AM

pgibbo wrote: »

I used paddles for the first time on Sunday evening at our Masters session. Man they're tough and really showed up the flaws in my pull technique. I used them for 4 x 50m as the coach doesn't want anyone picking up any shoulder injuries.

Fair play to your coach - its really easy to strain something using them initially and/or if you change up the sizes of them. If you've had shoulder problems do not use paddles. Simple rule.

Get used to using them first and then build up the sets is the approach being adopted from what I can tell. I felt I was going slower with them also. I would have assumed you should go faster.

used when kicking, yeah it is possible to faster - but to be honest I never ever use them when sprinting or really pushing the pace. My sets of 100's or 200's in the mornings are done with paddles to keep me focused on feeling the water, keep shoulder strenght and get as much from 40 mins as a I can in the water. I will be going back to using a drag belt with them as well soon so some of the distance Im doing will drop since my 100's times may need to slow too.
If you try to increase your arm / stroke frequency with paddles the following can happen:
- you're stroke will shorten (as in you wont be pushing past your hip and finishing the arm pull properly)
- you are likely to increase the chance of shoulder injury.

Is using the paddles the best way to address underwater stroke mechanics?

Not really imho. Underwater mechanics are pretty simple to be honest - its a sweeping movement increasing in speed from hand entry ... slightly out, not too deep, back towards the bodies centre line and then push harder / faster out past the hip.

Ive never used em but Ive always considered finger paddles pretty good at helping with correct hand entry / position and initial stroke.

Ive no connection with swimshop.co.uk but am a happy customer from time to time.
Sounds like you've a good coach at your master's swims - just listen to his advice and take a step back if you are getting sore / achey with the paddles on ...

again, just my opinion but the only swimming injuries Ive seen are paddle related or over training ...

btw, Griffin posted this yesterday - didnt listen to it and didnt watch it all but what I did see looked v good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXsE7...eature=related

interested · 09-02-2010 10:35PM

09/02/10 PM

750 f/s warm up
4 * 200 f/s on 3
4 * 175 f/s on 2.40
4 * 150 f/s on 2.20
4 * 125 f/s on 2.00
4 * 100 f/s on 1.40
easy 100 f/s, 4 * 50 IM order

3050

Strange session and distances this time around. concentrated on keeping stroke long.

interested · 10-02-2010 08:06AM

10/02/10

1000 f/s warm up
8 * 200's f/s pull with paddles desc 1-4 on 3 mins
(2.55, 2.50, 2.45, 2.38) (2.55, 2.50, 2.42, 2.31)
50 easy

2650

Good set of 200's. Decided to descend pace 1-4 and 5-8. Felt good to go a little faster than normal. The ideal would be to in a position to do 8 * 200's f/s on 2.40 holding around 2.30's but Im still a good bit off that at the moment.

shotgunmcos · 10-02-2010 10:31AM

interested wrote: »

8 * 200's f/s pull with paddles desc 1-4 on 3 mins
(2.55, 2.50, 2.45, 2.38) (2.55, 2.50, 2.42, 2.31)
.

:eek: do the paddles help you swim faster or slow you down, if ts the latter you are a machine!!

interested · 10-02-2010 10:43AM

shotgunmcos wrote: »

:eek: do the paddles help you swim faster or slow you down, if ts the latter you are a machine!!

They slow the stroke rate down and turn the tiredness associated with a 90 minute session without them into 40 mins with them if you know what I mean

Ill definitely repeat this session without paddles soon so ... we'll see.

interested · 11-02-2010 08:22AM

11/02/10

1000 f/s warm up
4 * 200's f/s on 3 desc 1-4 (2.55, 2.51, 2.46, 2.40)
4 * 100's f/s on 1.30
200 easy swim down

2400

A couple of fair conclusions can be gathered from the set this morning
a) swimming pull with large paddles definitely can make you faster as long as you've the shoulder strength to pull all the way through as the stroke rate goes up.
b) I really need to do more kick sets.
c) Ive no real short speed at the moment - as I get closer to end of April and May sets of 8 * 100's on 1.45 with a target of 1.10 will help this or even fast 50's.

Despite the fact that the 200 times were similar to the first set of 4 yesterday the perceived effort was much greater for me. It wasnt possible for me to cruise the first couple of 200's and focus in on going fast on the last 2 - id to work for the 2.55 and 2.51.

Then all of this is the difference between training to swim and training to swim for triathlons. If I can do 19 or 38 100's on 1.30 holding an average of 1.20 **comfortably** that will give me ~25mins or ~51min over 1900m or 3800m and enable me to function as id like on the bike and run.

Of course what you do in the protected environment of the pool is not always possible to translate precisely into an open water environment but I aint doing sets of 200's in the sea in February for love nor money

interested · 12-02-2010 08:02AM

12/02/10

400 f/s warm up
16 * 100 IM on 1.45
200 f/s easy swim down

2200

something different is always good so hence the IM set at the end of the week. 100's were done between 1.30 and 1.35 - 10 seconds rest was fine and could have done a few more of these.

interested · 15-02-2010 08:01AM

15/02/10

1000 f/s warm up
6 * 200's f/s pull with paddles on 3
300 swim down

2500

Nothing too pacey this morning - used it a little as a recovery session after weekend - getting feel for water again and stretching out shoulders.

interested · 15-02-2010 10:34PM

15/02/10 PM Long Course

500 f/s warm up
4 * 200 f/s on 3.15
2 * 400 f/s on 6.30
1 * 800 f/s
8 * 50 f/s on 60
200 f/s easy swim down

3500

Long time since I swam in a long course pool. Went 12.05 for the 800 which wasnt too bad.

interested · 17-02-2010 08:12AM

17/02/10

200 f/s warm up
12 * 200's f/s pull with paddles on 3
200 f/s swim down

2800

Imposed day off yesterday - decided on something to get me back into it - comfortable all way through 200's but they were done with the intention of keeping the stroke rate steady and long.

interested · 17-02-2010 01:28PM

An interesting read, and kinda summarises the whole 'dont swim as fast as you can, swim as well as you can' for triathlon

I hadnt heard the phrase 'Critical Swim Speed' (I would have thought it was the speed required to stay afloat

)

http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html

pgibbo · 17-02-2010 03:07PM

been meaning to do this swim test for a while now and see how it goes. Now that you've reminded me of it I'll try to do it on Friday and start pacing my splits based on it and see how it goes. Cheers.

shotgunmcos · 17-02-2010 03:41PM

Whats up with that CSS calculator? Say you put in your 400 time and a 200 time and it gives x.xx/100m but if you put in same 400 and faster 200 it gives a higher CSS

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