you DO believe in God.

Dr Kamikazi · 15-01-2010 02:32AM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I'm fairly certain that the organisation of religion, and from that the organisation of people, is the original idea.

True enough, but get enough people involved and the original idea gets lost in dogma and oppression.
The original idea would be like "wouldn't it be nice if people where a bit nicer to each other" and ends with the Spanish Inquisition.
For that reason I can appreciate spirituality, but religion is just the bastardisation of same.
If I'm not making sense it's OK, I'm still working it out myself.
Suggestions welcome...

aidan24326 · 15-01-2010 04:24PM

Petrovia wrote: »

That's not actually true. Being truly atheist doesn't inherently require any thinking. What if you grew up atheist, in a completely unreligious environment, so unreligious that you don't even know the notion of god/s? You're still a true atheist even though you have probably never spent a thought on the idea. Granted, you wouldn't call yourself an atheist, but you'd still be one.

I pretty much agree with you, I think we're all born atheist as a default setting. I don't buy into this idea that religion is hardwired into our brains. An aptitude for gullibility and superstition maybe, and i guess religion is just one of the ways that that manifests itself. A very prominent way due to the power that organised religions have exerted over people through the ages.

What I meant though is that for someone like me, and it probably applies to the majority of posters here, being born into a religious environment, at least to the extent that there was a veneer of religion, being baptised, first communion, going to mass, religion class at school and all of that, it requires active thought to reject what you've been told is true when growing up. It requires excercising your brain to say hang on, this stuff doesn't make any sense, it doesn't tally with how things really are. It requires thought because of what we've been brought up, most people in this country anyway. Of course for someone brought up in an atheist environment it's a little different.

Petrovia · 15-01-2010 08:00PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

What I meant though is that for someone like me, and it probably applies to the majority of posters here, being born into a religious environment, at least to the extent that there was a veneer of religion, being baptised, first communion, going to mass, religion class at school and all of that, it requires active thought to reject what you've been told is true when growing up. It requires excercising your brain to say hang on, this stuff doesn't make any sense, it doesn't tally with how things really are. It requires thought because of what we've been brought up, most people in this country anyway. Of course for someone brought up in an atheist environment it's a little different.

It makes sense, of course. I'm against people generalising like that (as in 'atheism requires thinking' etc.) though because it's a small leap from there to 'atheism is only for smart people'/'if you're not atheist, you're stupid' and while obviously not being correct it also makes atheists seem horribly arrogant. That said I do understand where you're coming from completely!

Perhaps it's also because I was raised atheist - in a sort of 'declining' Catholic environment*, not in a completely atheist environment, may I add - and I don't like the idea that my atheism is only valid now that I've spent a lot of time thinking about it

*in the sense that in the 1950s, 98% of people in the area were Catholic, and now no one really cares about religion anymore, but obviously that didn't happen completely overnight.

Dr Kamikazi · 16-01-2010 12:39AM

I do however believe in the four apostles.
John, Paul, George and Ringo.

aidan24326 · 17-01-2010 03:57AM

Petrovia wrote: »

It makes sense, of course.

It does? I'm a little surprised to hear someone call themself atheist and then say that religious beliefs make sense? Or maybe we've misunderstood each other?

amacachi · 17-01-2010 04:04AM

Just jumping in mid-thread here, but there is one thing in the OP I would agree with, there are some people who are Atheist and find any reason to give out about religion or spirituality because they like to associate themselves with Dawkins etc. to look like they're smarter than they are. It's a small but significant minority in my experience. I've had someone who did OL Biology in the LC trying to tell me about how evolution proves God isn't real ffs.

However that's the only bit in the OP I would agree with. One thing is the exact opposite of what I would say the real situation is, there would be a lot more people who see themselves as Christian who never pray outside a church (funerals, weddings etc.) than Atheists who do pray.

Daftendirekt · 17-01-2010 12:48PM

Why would an atheist pray?

Wouldn't that make you a theist?

Petrovia · 17-01-2010 12:56PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

It does? I'm a little surprised to hear someone call themself atheist and then say that religious beliefs make sense? Or maybe we've misunderstood each other?

Oh sorry, I meant something like 'what you say makes sense', not 'religious beliefs make sense'.

Antbert · 18-01-2010 05:34PM

I don't doubt that there are people who think atheism is cool, and so declare themselves atheists but... I never thought they actually weren't atheists. I understand the type of person you're referring to. However irritating they may be (there is no denying that this specific type of person is irritating, sort of in the same way as someone wears oversized pretend glasses with no perscription in them) I never thought that they were secretly religious.

Anyway, people who consider atheism to be cool will surely be atheists won't they...? I don't know anyone vaguely religious who really respects Richard Dawkins. Why would you specifically want a load of atheists to like you if you weren't actually one?

Maybe the thread should've been more about the Atheism 'fad'. Which I also think is nonsense, but might have made more sense,

Pushtrak · 18-01-2010 05:44PM

amacachi wrote: »

there are some people who are Atheist and find any reason to give out about religion or spirituality because they like to associate themselves with Dawkins etc.

I'd imagine disassociating themselves with the church would be higher up the foodchain. You have to find yourself against one thing before jumping on another, I'd imagine. Even if Dawkins or someone else was the means to that end, the point is irrelevant.

I've had someone who did OL Biology in the LC trying to tell me about how evolution proves God isn't real ffs.

So, only people who get A1 Leaving Certificate Higher Level are allowed to cite/have an interest in Scientific pursuits? Not really seeing your point.

amacachi · 19-01-2010 12:51AM

Pushtrak wrote: »

I'd imagine disassociating themselves with the church would be higher up the foodchain. You have to find yourself against one thing before jumping on another, I'd imagine. Even if Dawkins or someone else was the means to that end, the point is irrelevant.

They got the dissociating themselves from the church out of the way in their early teens.

So, only people who get A1 Leaving Certificate Higher Level are allowed to cite/have an interest in Scientific pursuits? Not really seeing your point.

I didn't say that, but when someone's knowledge on a subject sums to 48 minutes of a television show not even entirely devoted to the subject and they try to lecture me on it they can **** right off. Some people think that aligning themselves with Dawkins or seeing a single documentary somehow makes them so ****ing enlightened.

ItisintheSTARS · 05-02-2010 10:13PM

Magnus wrote: »

These are people known to be atheists/non-theists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nontheists
I couldn't copy/paste the list here because it's too big.

Albert Einstein really liked the idea of Jesus but I think this quote best expresses Einsteins view on god: ‘The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.’

Or Gandhis famous quote: I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
I definitely agree with these two above.

If Jesus existed he seems to have been a pretty cool guy, too bad the pope, priests and christian fundamentalists have destroyed the original intentions of Jesus for their own petty power struggles.
Even if I believed in god I would still hate the church.

MAGNUS,some of many Einstein quotes, 'The fanatical Atheists are like slaves..still feeling the weight of their chains...They are creatures who in their grudge against traditional religion as 'opium of the masses'..cannot HEAR the music of the spheres.'
'What seperates me from most atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the UNATTANABLE secrets of the Harmony of the Cosmos.'
'The more I do science the more I believe in a GOD.'

In order for most atheists to hold their position it seems,they need to quote very selectively,always.

Flamed Diving · 05-02-2010 10:20PM

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

MAGNUS,some of many Einstein quotes, 'The fanatical Atheists are like slaves..still feeling the weight of their chains...They are creatures who in their grudge against traditional religion as 'opium of the masses'..cannot HEAR the music of the spheres.'
'What seperates me from most atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the UNATTANABLE secrets of the Harmony of the Cosmos.'
'The more I do science the more I believe in a GOD.'

In order for most atheists to hold their position it seems,they need to quote very selectively,always.

:facepalm:

fitz0 · 05-02-2010 10:25PM

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

In order for most atheists to hold their position it seems,they need to quote very selectively,always.

You left in an extra "a" there.

Flamed Diving · 05-02-2010 10:36PM

I prefer quotes that can be backed with references. That said, I don't endorse quotes as evidence of ANYTHING.

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)

ItisintheSTARS · 05-02-2010 10:56PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

:facepalm:

What is this supposed to mean ?

Flamed Diving · 05-02-2010 11:01PM

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

What is this supposed to mean ?

ItisintheSTARS · 05-02-2010 11:05PM

fitz0 wrote: »

You left in an extra "a" there.

No as an ex atheist ,and being very well read and all that ,and quoting in this context,there was no EXTRA ''a''.
Yes there are some pretty horrid 'believers',but you are the ones who are supposed to be WELL educated ,and RATIONAL.
Funnily enough this is often so untrue.
And many RATIONAL people like Voltaire,and many truly creative people like Mozart believed in a Creator.
Maybe you are mixing 'rebellion' with serious intellectual searching.
The first can beget the latter ,but mostly it doesn't.
There needs to be very advanced 'soul for that.

Turtwig · 05-02-2010 11:09PM

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

No as an ex atheist ,and being very well read and all that ,and quoting in this context,there was no EXTRA ''a''.
Yes there are some pretty horrid 'believers',but you are the ones who are supposed to be WELL educated ,and RATIONAL.
Funnily enough this is often so untrue.
And many RATIONAL people like Voltaire,and many truly creative people like Mozart believed in a Creator.
Maybe you are mixing 'rebellion' with serious intellectual searching.
The first can beget the latter ,but mostly it doesn't.
There needs to be very advanced 'soul for that.

Since when does an atheist have to be anything? All I do is lack belief in God. I'm sorry if you think that I should conform to your typical set of characteristics: I'm not rational and I don't care!!

Flamed Diving · 05-02-2010 11:22PM

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

No as an ex atheist ,and being very well read and all that ,and quoting in this context,there was no EXTRA ''a''.
Yes there are some pretty horrid 'believers',but you are the ones who are supposed to be WELL educated ,and RATIONAL.
Funnily enough this is often so untrue.
And many RATIONAL people like Voltaire,and many truly creative people like Mozart believed in a Creator.
Maybe you are mixing 'rebellion' with serious intellectual searching.
The first can beget the latter ,but mostly it doesn't.
There needs to be very advanced 'soul for that.

It's funny that, as an non-atheist, 2/3's of your posts have been in the A&A forum. You literally registered and then made a beeline for this forum. Odd.

Turtwig · 05-02-2010 11:31PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Man is but a reed, the most feeble thing in nature, but he is a thinking reed. The entire universe need not arm itself to crush him. A vapor, a drop of water suffices to kill him. But, if the universe were to crush him, man would still be more noble than that which killed him, because he knows that he dies and the advantage which the universe has over him; the universe knows nothing of this. All our dignity consists then in thought. By it we must elevate ourselves. - Blaise Pascal

Flamed, did you get that sig from a recent video.:D
*Shakes fist angrily for not thinking of it first*
It's such a lovely quote.

robindch · 05-02-2010 11:32PM

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

No you are the ones who are supposed to be WELL educated ,and RATIONAL. Funnily enough this is often so untrue.

Not all that nice a thing to say.

Could you substantiate your claim that we're neither well-educated nor rational?

ItisintheSTARS · 05-02-2010 11:33PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Since when does an atheist have to be anything? All I do is lack belief in God. I'm sorry if you think that I should conform to your typical set of characteristics: I'm not rational and I don't care!!

I do not think I was replying to you.
I have no idea who you are or of your ideas .
I was replying to another poster,and if you care to look ,most atheists
think that they are more RATIONAL than 'believers'.
So what makes you think I was talking to you since I do not know about your existence.
So all you have done is show that they have tantrums as well.
OH dear ,what a night for Atheists.! ! !
GOOD BYE.

Turtwig · 05-02-2010 11:34PM

robindch wrote: »

Nut aul tat noice a thnig too cay.

Culd yuo soobstandcyate ur clame tat we'ur nider well-educated nor rational?

Proof is in the pudding:pac:

The Mad Hatter · 05-02-2010 11:41PM

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

I do not think I was replying to you.
I have no idea who you are or of your ideas .
I was replying to another poster,and if you care to look ,most atheists
think that they are more RATIONAL than 'believers'.
So what makes you think I was talking to you since I do not know about your existence.
So all you have done is show that they have tantrums as well.
OH dear ,what a night for Atheists.! ! !
GOOD BYE.

You have a very odd way of typing for someone who claims to be "very well read and all that"

Turtwig · 05-02-2010 11:47PM

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

.

I do not think I was replying to you.

Well either you were or you weren't.

I have no idea who you are or of your ideas .

Nor do I.

I was replying to another poster,and if you care to look ,most atheists
think that they are more RATIONAL than 'believers'.

Really? You're not even sure what yourself was thinking yet you think you know what others were thinking.:p

So what makes you think I was talking to you since I do not know about your existence.

I'm an atheist, you said I had to be well educated and rational. I felt a little upset by this, many of the posters here may be smarter that I am, but does that just mean I'm disqualified as an atheist?

So all you have done is show that they have tantrums as well.

Stick around, I do it sometimes : moods can vary.

OH dear ,what a night for Atheists.! ! !

Indeed.

GOOD BYE.

Adios.

robindch · 06-02-2010 12:09AM

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

Flamed Diving wrote:

:facepalm:

What is this supposed to mean ?

FYI - it means that somebody thinks that you've said something very silly indeed.

Antbert · 06-02-2010 01:45PM

Hello again Troll thread!

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

if you care to look ,most atheists
think that they are more RATIONAL than 'believers'.

Well, it's probably true to say that most atheists think belief in God is irrational. So... Your point?

So all you have done is show that they have tantrums as well.
OH dear ,what a night for Atheists.! ! !

Er... What?

GOOD BYE.

Well, I guess you won't be responding to me then.

adamshred · 06-02-2010 04:38PM

amacachi wrote: »

I've had someone who did OL Biology in the LC trying to tell me about how evolution proves God isn't real ffs.

Possibly the most immature post that I have encountered on this site to date.

I know people who failed everything on their leaving cert and they're a hell of a lot more intelligent than many others I know who passed with flying colours.

Ridiculous post.

Galvasean · 06-02-2010 05:44PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

You have a very odd way of typing for someone who claims to be "very well read and all that"

I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it was Haiku.

you DO believe in God.

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