When did it become ok to joke about rape?

furiousox · 10-01-2010 2:55am

MAB83 wrote: »

So it's only bad to laugh if the topic you're joking about effects someone personally?! What if someone is a big Michael Jackson fan and finds those jokes really upsetting because they grew up listening to his music and felt like they knew him? What if you're offending that person? That's not okay is it? A bad taste joke is bad taste regardless, you can't laugh at one and find another offensive.

Yeah but everyone's idea of what constitutes bad taste is not the same is it?

I wouldn't be offended by Michael Jackson jokes at all, but I would be offended by Madeleine McCann jokes.
I can guarantee you it'll be vice versa for some people.

LETS BE AVN IT · 10-01-2010 2:58am

I think the word , rape , has become more acceptable in common conversation between people under 25 , its not used in its original context anymore for example you may hear people at football matches saying , ronaldo raped him there he didnt have a chance, or a band playing a concert , kings of leon actually raped the place tonight it was unreal ! So i dont think when people say it, they actually are thinking of physicaly assaulting some one.

Sabbath Lily · 10-01-2010 3:35am

I don't think a lot of people here are truly getting the sense of what the OP meant though. She's already more or less been accused of having a **** sense of humour and to get over it (which I think she has reacted to very gracefully, imo.) I love my football, and have heard the term 'raped' used in that context, when a player's beaten, but that is very, very different to jokes about actual rape. I have no problem with the actual word, or it being used in other contexts, when it is patently clear that an literal act of rape is not in question.

Jokes ABOUT rape, though - I do have a problem with. I don't mean to say that there isn't a joke out there, that couldn't be funny with relation to this - but not too many. A lot of it is the way it's told - if it's put in a dry, self-deprecating way, I don't mind too much. But a lot of the time, the way men tell these jokes (and it is men, always men, I'm afraid to say), it's in the mode of how they'd describe a sexual conquest to their mates down the pub - lots of laughter and a fairly strong sense of derision. It's the context in which it's told. And that context, unfortunately, is usually inappropriate, IMO.

Bottle_of_Smoke's depiction of rape and its taboo nature in this country is pretty on-the-money. Of course, most people seem to think that it doesn't exist unless they're faced with it directly - I don't think they ever consider that people they see every day could be victims. And if they did know this, I'm sure they'd think about altering their behaviour, at least about telling rape jokes anyway. But most guys I know go on the defensive when you challenge them on this. Generally I get asked what my problem is. Short of saying 'I was raped', I'm not allowed to have a legitimate answer.

speedboatchase · 10-01-2010 3:44am

Sabbath Lily wrote: »

But a lot of the time, the way men tell these jokes (and it is men, always men, I'm afraid to say), it's in the mode of how they'd describe a sexual conquest to their mates down the pub - lots of laughter and a fairly strong sense of derision

God forbid people laugh at a joke right? As for "sense of derision" - are you implying towards a rape victim? As I've said, there's absolutely no connection between laughing at a joke about a topic and then somehow being condoning that subject. Nothing in humour should be taboo

Sabbath Lily · 10-01-2010 3:51am

speedboatchase wrote: »

God forbid people laugh at a joke right? As for "sense of derision" - are you implying towards a rape victim? As I've said, there's absolutely no connection between laughing at a joke about a topic and then somehow being condoning that subject. Nothing in humour should be taboo

I knew someone would say that, and the whole censorship thing would be raised. If you want me to believe I'm censoring you, go ahead. But personally, I value compassion over absolutely free speech. If there's even a chance that I was speaking to a rape victim, and making that kind of joke in front of him/her, I would absolutely torture myself about it. But obviously that's just me...
Oh, and if you do happen to do the above, make sure to tell the victim yourself (if he/she actually identifies themselves, that is) that there's no connection between your joke and the assault that they suffered themselves. I mean, rape victims can sometimes suffer for years on end, what with the fact that our society still won't accept that the victims involved weren't 'asking for it'. So they might be a bit sensitive about the topic. But the most important thing is that you said what you wanted to say, isn't it?

drkpower · 10-01-2010 3:59am

speedboatchase wrote: »

God forbid people laugh at a joke right? As for "sense of derision" - are you implying towards a rape victim? As I've said, there's absolutely no connection between laughing at a joke about a topic and then somehow being condoning that subject. Nothing in humour should be taboo

Isnt the point that, in the vast vast majority of cases, joking about actual rape simply isnt funny.

speedboatchase · 10-01-2010 3:59am

Sabbath Lily wrote: »

I knew someone would say that, and the whole censorship thing would be raised. If you want me to believe I'm censoring you, go ahead. But personally, I value compassion over absolutely free speech. If there's even a chance that I was speaking to a rape victim, and making that kind of joke in front of him/her, I would absolutely torture myself about it. But obviously that's just me...
Oh, and if you do happen to do the above, make sure to tell the victim yourself (if he/she actually identifies themselves, that is) that there's no connection between your joke and the assault that they suffered themselves. I mean, rape victims can sometimes suffer for years on end, what with the fact that our society still won't accept that the victims involved weren't 'asking for it'. So they might be a bit sensitive about the topic. But the most important thing is that you said what you wanted to say, isn't it?

I honestly feel the person at the table would actually realise there was no connection between me telling a joke and condoning the action within it? Like as if the person at the table suddenly starts thinking "oh no, this guy likes to rape people!!". If I knew the person had suffered that kind of assault I would of course have a lot more tact to make the joke in front of them. For example, if someone told a racist joke (as I said, there a tons of taboo subjects for humour) you wouldn't tell it in the company of a person of the race being described in the joke. Self-censorship in these areas is always going to happen and should always to happen, but liking the joke is nothing to be ashamed of - it's just a joke. You say at the end there "But the most important thing is that you said what you wanted to say, isn't it?!" as if I'd be a heartless, selfish person who wants to hurt peoples feelings to make my mates laugh but as I said, that's completely off the mark

drkpower wrote: »

Isnt the point that, in the vast vast majority of cases, joking about actual rape simply isnt funny.

Humour is subjective and no topic is or should be off-limits and what do you mean by "actual rape"? I wouldn't make a joke about an actual rape victim, no-one does that

drkpower · 10-01-2010 4:02am

speedboatchase wrote: »

If I knew the person had suffered that kind of assault I would of course have a lot more tact to make the joke in front of them. For example, if someone told a racist joke (as I said, there a tons of taboo subjects for humour) you wouldn't tell it in the company of a person of the race being described in the joke.

90+% of rape victims are women and reents stats suggest that somewhere approching 30% of women have been the victim of rape; so do the maths, there is a good chanse that the woman at the table is going to be a woman who has been raped.

drkpower · 10-01-2010 4:06am

speedboatchase wrote: »

Humour is subjective and no topic is or should be off-limits and what do you mean by "actual rape"? I wouldn't make a joke about an actual rape victim, no-one does that

It is about context. You said yourself that certain topics were off limits in certain company. If you and your mates like to tell rape jokes and you all think its funny, go for it, but in company where there is a very good chance that someone has been the victim of rape, you shouldnt go there.

When I said "actual rape" jokes, I was distinguishing a play on the word/word games, which is a little different to jokes that have rape as a part of the narrative.

Ickle Magoo · 10-01-2010 4:07am

speedboatchase wrote: »

I honestly feel the person at the table would actually realise there was no connection between me telling a joke and condoning the action within it? Like as if the person at the table suddenly starts thinking "oh no, this guy likes to rape people!!". If I knew the person had suffered that kind of assault I would of course have a lot more tact to make the joke in front of them.

It's not so much "this guy like to rape people" as "this guy thinks rape is funny"...and given the statistics on rape, you aren't likely to know the person had suffered such an assault. It seems to be a topic you'd be ashamed to laugh at in front of a rape victim, added to the fact you can't possibly tell who is or isn't a victim of rape - would common sense not dictate that it's not actually joke material?

speedboatchase · 10-01-2010 4:10am

drkpower wrote: »

It is about context. You said yourself that certain topics were off limits in certain company. If you and your mates like to tell rape jokes and you all think its funny, go for it, but in company where there is a very good chance that someone has been the victim of rape, you shouldnt go there.

When I said "actual rape" jokes, I was distinguishing a play on the word/word games, which is a little different to jokes that have rape as a part of the narrative.

This. It's very easy to misconstrue a message of me and my friends rubbing our hands together and cackling away over a series of rape jokes we have prepared all week to rattle off one after another. If I find someone funny (subjective), I will laugh at it involuntarily, that can be any manner of joke; tonight I laughed my ass off at a joke about a hen dating agency. If I laugh at a racist joke (for example the wheel of fortune "naggers" answer in South Park scene was hysterical) or anything else a bit taboo, it really doesn't mean anything. I try have as much tact as possible if I'm the one telling the joke. Of course I wouldn't tell the joke in front of someone who has suffered such a horrible ordeal and to be honest, I would only tell that kind of joke in the company of women if I knew them really well, it's hard first-date material

speedboatchase · 10-01-2010 4:13am

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's not so much "this guy like to rape people" as "this guy thinks rape is funny"...and given the statistics on rape, you aren't likely to know the person had suffered such an assault. It seems to be a topic you'd be ashamed to laugh at in front of a rape victim, added to the fact you can't possibly tell who is or isn't a victim of rape - would common sense not dictate that it's not actually joke material?

There are plenty of jokes about child abuse, racism etc etc as I've said, in fact every single Michael Jackson joke before and after his death centred around this. As I've said above rape is obviously a situation where I would have more tact than usual, in the same way I wouldn't tell a racist joke in the company of someone of a race mentioned in the joke. Unless I knew a woman in the company of the joke really well I wouldn't bother. If I did, and I think it's funny - I'll tell it. I mean come on, people here have heard of edgy humour before right? Lots of subjects are used and you use tact when telling them BUT most importantly, if you find them funny, nothing wrong with that and they're worth telling

tudlytops · 10-01-2010 4:15am

speedboatchase wrote: »

Of course I wouldn't tell the joke in front of someone who has suffered such a horrible ordeal and to be honest, I would only tell that kind of joke in the company of women if I knew them really well, it's hard first-date material

Problem is how do you know if someone was a rape victim, it's not as if people go around telling their story, even if you think you know them well.

There are a lot of jokes I don't laugh at and these are one of them.

drkpower · 10-01-2010 4:20am

speedboatchase wrote: »

This. It's very easy to misconstrue a message of me and my friends rubbing our hands together and cackling away over a series of rape jokes we have prepared all week to rattle off one after another. If I find someone funny (subjective), I will laugh at it involuntarily, that can be any manner of joke; tonight I laughed my ass off at a joke about a hen dating agency. If I laugh at a racist joke (for example the wheel of fortune "naggers" answer in South Park scene was hysterical) or anything else a bit taboo, it really doesn't mean anything. I try have as much tact as possible if I'm the one telling the joke. Of course I wouldn't tell the joke in front of someone who has suffered such a horrible ordeal and to be honest, I would only tell that kind of joke in the company of women if I knew them really well, it's hard first-date material

Im not trying to paint a picture of you and your misogynistic mates down the pub getting off on rape jokes, I am simply making the point that jokes that have rape as their subject are really not on in female company, given the relatively comon experience it is for women (even the ones you know well).

I know one or two black guys who think that the occasional 'N' joke is hilarious, and in their company i might rattle off an especially good one. Would I tell that joke in the company of other black people who i knew, but whose personal sensibilities and backgrounds i wasnt aware of? Not a chance.

speedboatchase · 10-01-2010 4:24am

Well I'm gonna head to bed and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone tonight or come off as some kind of crazy scumbag or anything. I do realise however that perhaps there's a male/female divide about this subject, which for the reasons people have underlined in the thread is understandable. As the above poster says "there are a lot of jokes I don't laugh at and these are one of them" and I think with most blokes we pretty much laugh at every joke if we find it funny, and maybe have less control on what we find funny, a more no holds barred approach. But interesting pointers and I do see where people are coming from

In any case I'll bid you all adieu but not before I leave you with that terrible animal joke I heard earlier

- "I used to run a dating agency for chickens. But I was struggling to make hens meet"

:eek: Sorry..

drkpower · 10-01-2010 4:25am

speedboatchase wrote: »

There are plenty of jokes about child abuse, racism etc etc as I've said, in fact every single Michael Jackson joke before and after his death centred around this.

I dont think you are getting this.
It is highly unlikely that the recipient of the joke will be a relative of Michael J.
It is highly unlikely, in your circles (under 30/40, yes?), that the recipient of the joke will be a victim of child abuse (although given recent events I would be very careful of that one too, particularly with older age groups).

But with women, there is not far off a 1 in 3 chance that they will have been a victim, and probably a 1 in 2 or more chance that they will know someone very well who is a victim. So it is a totally different ball game. Edgy humour is great, but it is no longer edgy when it directly offends someone who has every right to be offended by it, then its just offensive.

Lia_lia · 10-01-2010 5:15am

Clare Bear wrote: »

People joke about everything. Rape, dead babies, cancer.....the list goes on. I'm not saying it's okay to joke about rape but I don't get offended by those sort of jokes either, they're everywhere. Not that they're all acceptable but people laugh at inappropriate things, it's human nature.

Yeah, this.

Jules · 10-01-2010 7:33am

Speaking from a very personal opinion, it all depends on the context.

I have sat on my computer talking to a group of friends and the guys involved would be chatting away and one would throw up a pic of a girl and they would chime in with "oh yeah i'd hit that, she'd get it, i'd rape her" whilst flexing their e-penis. And it doesn't bother me when its a once off. Hell i have used the term once or twice in reference to the tax man!

But, i have unfortunately had to sit in the same room as guys saying things like that over and over again, whilst playing games or watching movies and it does get to a point where i do get uncomfortable, worse it being an ex who knew of my situation!

And also i have to say jokes about the actual act of rape bother me in hugh ways. And it's not like i don't have a bit of a twisted sense of humour but i do think some jokes go to far, and desensitise people to things. Like the maddie thing, end of the day a little girl went missing and is probably dead and people talking about her being the "hide and seek campaion of 2008" or whatever. That is targeting an individual and that is too far. But, like i said, i have a personal opinion on certain things and, well thats that.

Nevyn · 10-01-2010 12:37pm

Humour is subjective but this thread is about the use of the word rape as an expression rather then as a joke.

It has become a turn of phrase it seem with some people to say how badly they or another person lost at a game or activity and I'm sorry but your football team loosing by 13 nil to it's arch rival is not comparible to being raped.

Nor it is a compliment or a good turn of phrase to express how sexually attracted you are to someone, "She's so hot, I'd rape her" I don't see how that expression can be recieved with anything but revulsion esp given the stats on date rape and how under reported rape is.

scanlas · 10-01-2010 12:53pm

The funnier one's joke is the more likely one will get away with it. You can even blatantly bully people, if it's funny you aren't a social violater. Look at Vinnie Jones in big brother house, he gets away with a lot of bad behavour because he's funny and no one sees him as a social violater. He's blatantly bullying Alex. People want value, when you are funny you are giving value, so people are less likely to have a problem with the joke content.

Herbal Deity · 10-01-2010 12:54pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong because I'm undecided, but I will offer a critiscism. Murder/slaughter are much more regularly used words than rape.

Well, that was part of my point. Murder and rape are equally horrific crimes.

I'm not fully decided myself either.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Rape isn't taboo for no reason. It's taboo because its a topic that makes people uncomfortable. Not for repressed catholic reasons, it's uncomfortable because victims generally want privacy.

I partially agree. But at the same time, a fear surrounding mentioning the word "rape" is not good.

Thaedydal wrote: »

It has become a turn of phrase it seem with some people to say how badly they or another person lost at a game or activity and I'm sorry but your football team loosing by 13 nil to it's arch rival is not comparible to being raped.

It's not comparable to being murdered either though, and I don't think many would have a problem with the term "murder" being used in that context.

In a way, you could say it's a subconscious recognition of just how horrendous a crime rape is.

On the other hand, given that a joke about rape may very well be a trigger for a victim, and you're much more likely to be in the company of a rape victim or someone who's close to one than someone who was close to a murder victim.

Nevyn · 10-01-2010 1:06pm

Murder is less likely to happen to a person in this country then rape/sexual assault is.
Clearly if a person is alive they were not murdered so the term of expression is clearly far removed from the act, rape is not as clear cut at all.

Apolloyon · 10-01-2010 3:11pm

I see the statement floating around these days 'that either everything is funny or nothing is'. It's a convenient shield to hide behind because if someone is offended, the person can claim that they have 'no sense of humour' or some such. The reality is that jokes about rape are not funny. Never funny in fact. Whether they be keyboard warriors, work or college mates, their claim that everything is or should be funny is often proven inherently false. Do they make paedophile jokes at interviews? The aforementioned 'rape jokes' at their sister's wedding? Of course they don't. We all have filters about what's appropriate. Anyone who claims otherwise would be unable to interact in any meaningful way with others.

And for those who find rape jokes 'hilarious'. Stop and think about someone you care about for five minutes.Now imagine rape in that personal context. How 'hilarious' is it now?

10-01-2010 3:31pm

It's an f-ing joke. There are a vast number of things that aren't funny irl that people make jokes about. If you don't like that particular kind of humour that's your opinion. But everyone is different and you should respect that
Besides, fearing and hiding from something only emphasises the influence it has over you

drkpower · 10-01-2010 3:35pm

There seems to be a bot of confusion here.

Use of the word rape to mean 'violated' in a non-sexual context (ie. I was raped by the taxman; United raped Spurs etc....) is a totally different animal to jokes about rape itself or use of the term rape to express sexual attraction (ie. she is so hot I would rape her).

What humour there is in the latter is beyond me, but hey, horses for courses. The key point is that anyone who uses the latter form of 'joke' in female company (even if they know them extremely well) is an idiot.

10-01-2010 3:39pm

^^I'm female and I laugh at those jokes. People need to learn to relax their haunches once in a while

mikeystipey · 10-01-2010 3:42pm

'twas Tommy Tiernan who made the rape jokes fashionable

Silverfish · 10-01-2010 3:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

^^I'm female and I laugh at those jokes. People need to learn to relax their haunches once in a while

Would you laugh if you were in the company of a friend who had been raped?

Would you tell jokes like that to a rape victim?

Would you tell them they need to learn to relax if it did upset them?

Just curious.

dlofnep · 10-01-2010 3:45pm

The world is an evil place. The buck doesn't stop with rape jokes. I don't get offended easily, but I've heard some disgusting stuff in my time. Remember the Jamie Bulger jokes? Yeah - sick people have been around a long time.

drkpower · 10-01-2010 3:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

^^I'm female and I laugh at those jokes. People need to learn to relax their haunches once in a while

Have you been raped?
If not, do you think you would find them hilarious if you had been?
Do you know what the approximate number of Irish women who have been raped is, and therefore do you know the odds, when telling a hilarious rape joke to 3 women, what the chances are that one of them has been raped?
In such a scenario, do you think that that women needs to 'relax her haunches'?

When did it become ok to joke about rape?

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