[Irish Times - 29 Dec. 2009] Dart line to be split

Amalgam · 29-12-2009 2:21pm #1

I don't understand the need to split the line myself, it'll upset the dynamic of the coast and city, jobs and general social related journeys. It feels very 'LUAS'..

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1229/1224261353133.html?via=mr

The Irish Times - Tuesday, December 29, 2009

Dart line to be split to make way for underground

OLIVIA KELLY

DUBLIN’S DART line, which has carried passengers from Howth to Bray for 25 years, is to be severed following construction of the Dart Underground, Iarnród Éireann has confirmed.

The company will next March seek a railway order to construct the new Dart line, which will run underground from the Docklands to Heuston Station and Inchicore via St Stephen’s Green.

The underground line, due to open in 2015, will result in the current north-south Dart line being split in two.

Currently Dart trains run from Howth on the north coast of Dublin to Greystones, south of Bray, Co Wicklow, with city centre stops at Connolly, Tara Street and Pearse stations.

Once the underground line is built, passengers travelling from the north side will no longer have direct access to Connolly or Tara Street stations. Their Dart will run as normal to Clontarf Road, but will then enter a tunnel at East Wall and continue to underground stations at Docklands, Pearse, St Stephen’s Green, Christchurch, Heuston, and emerging at a surface station at Inchicore.

Passengers heading south will have to change at Pearse to return to the current Dart route.

Southside passengers travelling into the city will still have access to Pearse, Tara Street and Connolly stations. However, after passing through Connolly, their train will turn west, through Drumcondra and out to Maynooth in Co Kildare. To head north on the current Dart line, they also will have to change at Pearse Station.

Presenting the proposed lines to a recent meeting of Dublin city councillors, Dart underground project manager Peter Muldoon said the severing of the current Dart line would not affect journey times.

“If you are going from one side of the city to the other, you will have to change trains; just like every other major city. We hope to have one train every five or six minutes, so the time from leaving your house to arriving at work will not be adversely affected,” he added.

Capacity constraints at Connolly Station meant it was not feasible to construct the underground line from Connolly to Heuston stations and preserve the existing north-south Dart line.

“We have a major capacity problem with the tracks coming into Dublin,” Mr Muldoon said. “There are a huge number of tracks coming into Connolly and only one track coming out.”

The current line capacity at Connolly meant that extra trains could not be added to improve the frequency of the service, he said. The changes would allow a far greater number of trains to move through the city and would ensure passengers had a fully integrated public transport system, which brought them quickly to their destinations.

“This proposal takes people where they want to go – the Docklands and the south inner city. Merely transferring people between Heuston and Connolly doesn’t take people where they want to go,” Mr Muldoon said.

Iarnród Éireann will begin a new round of public consultation on the line and the proposed stations in the new year before it seeks a railway order, for permission to undertake the project, next March.

paulm17781 · 29-12-2009 2:23pm

Mother of God... Slow news day obviously.

The split will allow the DART to function as two separate lines with increased frequency on both. Once the split happens, we will have a DART network which will be vastly superior to the DART line.

This plan has been around since 2003. Good to see The IT picking up on it so quickly. :rolleyes:

Amalgam · 29-12-2009 2:26pm

Why split what is already joined? I'm not trying to be argumentative (honest), just looking for a rationale.

paulm17781 · 29-12-2009 2:31pm

Amalgam wrote: »

Why split what is already joined? I'm not trying to be argumentative (honest), just looking for a rationale.

The loop line bridge (Tara st.) is the most congested part of the network. The plan mentioned above will have half the DART lines completely bypassing this line so Howth / Malahide to Kildare will not affect the DART service.

With all these trains removed you no longer have Maynooth trains competing with Northern trains for space. This allows a much greater frequency of trains from Maynooth to Bray.

It is not possible to increase the frequency (any where near the level this allows) with out by passing the loop line and Connolly station. I believe Connolly can not handle any additional services.

Also you, shouldn't look at it as splitting the DART line. It is joining up the commuter lines.

trad · 29-12-2009 2:32pm

Does IR have the funds to pay for this or is it dependant on future Government funding?

paulm17781 · 29-12-2009 2:33pm

trad wrote: »

Does IR have the funds to pay for this or is it dependant on future Government funding?

It was included in Transport 21. It is the single most important project in Transport 21.

peter1892 · 29-12-2009 2:36pm

By splitting the existing DART line they'll be able to connect rail & light rail together - DART, Luas, Metro.

For example - if you lived in Malahide & worked in Sandyford you'd be able to take the Dart to Stephen's Green, change onto the Luas Green line & head on to work. Currently you'd need to get off the Dart at Pearse & walk up to the Green.

For someone living in Castleknock & working in the city centre it would be possible to take a Dart to Drumcondra & change onto the Metro towards the city, for someone in Tallaght wishing to take public transport to the airport this would involve taking the Red Luas line to Abbey st then walking across to the O'Connell st Metro stop.

Splitting the Dart line like this opens up rail transport in Dublin in way that can't be done right now. Think of the proposed Dart line as being like an X with Pearse in the middle of it.

Of course, my examples above depend on the various bits of the plan actually being built!

**Timbuk2** · 29-12-2009 2:40pm

If this ever happens, Northern commuter trains (e.g. Dundalk/Drogheda -> Connolly) still run as far as Connolly/Pearse?

paulm17781 · 29-12-2009 2:42pm

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

If this ever happens, Northern commuter trains (e.g. Dundalk/Drogheda -> Connolly) still run as far as Connolly/Pearse?

No. They'll go Clontarf, Dockland / Spencer dock, Pearse st (underground), Stephen's green, Christchurch, Heuston, Inchacore and onto Kildare. Far most useful than a train to connolly.

Isn't it great how the IT spun this as a negative when in fact it will benefit the city hugely. :rolleyes:

peter1892 · 29-12-2009 2:46pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

No. They'll go Clontarf, Dockland / Spencer dock, Pearse st (underground), Stephen's green, Christchurch, Heuston, Inchacore and onto Kildare. Far most useful than a train to connolly.

Isn't it great how the IT spun this as a negative when in fact it will benefit the city hugely. :rolleyes:

Won't the diesel trains still have to go to Connolly though? IIRC the interconnector will only be suitable for Dart/electric trains. Or will they divert northern commuter (diesel) services into Docklands instead?

paulm17781 · 29-12-2009 2:54pm

peter1892 wrote: »

Won't the diesel trains still have to go to Connolly though? IIRC the interconnector will only be suitable for Dart/electric trains. Or will they divert northern commuter (diesel) services into Docklands instead?

The tunnel is only for electric trains but Maynooth is going to be electrified as is Kildare. There'll be far fewer deisel trains about (in Connolly)

L1011 · 29-12-2009 2:57pm

But he was asking about Northern Commuter services, of which a fair few will still be diesel (Dundalk) even if the DART-to-Dwada happens...

KC61 · 29-12-2009 2:58pm

At the moment every train that operates to Maynooth uses a slot that could be used for a Northern line train from the loop line bridge. Every train from Maynooth blocks both Northern line directions.

By splitting it into two separate DART lines it means that the service from Maynooth and that from Howth/Malahide (or further if DART is extended north) will be able to operate on a self-contained basis and not conflict with one another.

This means that it will be possible to increase frequency on both routes.

As for Drogheda/Dundalk services, if they are still diesel operated, then they will go probably to Connolly or perhaps Grand Canal Dock still using the loop line. If they are DART then they will go via Docklands to Hazelhatch.

crocro · 29-12-2009 3:20pm

Here's a video that explains the dart underground project http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dart_underground.asp

If the metro is anything to go by, it will probably take until 2012 to get planning approval and a further 2 years to be financially approved plus a further 6 years to build so there's no panic.

fh041205 · 29-12-2009 3:26pm

MYOB wrote: »

even if the DART-to-Dwada happens...

:eek:

I would wager quite a lot of money that we won't see that for a very very long time, if ever.

noelfirl · 29-12-2009 4:30pm

Once the underground line is built, passengers travelling from the north side will no longer have direct access to Connolly or Tara Street stations. Their Dart will run as normal to Clontarf Road, but will then enter a tunnel at East Wall and continue to underground stations at Docklands, Pearse, St Stephen’s Green, Christchurch, Heuston, and emerging at a surface station at Inchicore.

Passengers heading south will have to change at Pearse to return to the current Dart route.

Southside passengers travelling into the city will still have access to Pearse, Tara Street and Connolly stations. However, after passing through Connolly, their train will turn west, through Drumcondra and out to Maynooth in Co Kildare. To head north on the current Dart line, they also will have to change at Pearse Station

Good grief, subversive and anti-public transport journalism at it's best. Heaven forbid that people would have to change lines to get to their final destination, oh no, we wouldn't want that now would we.

Colm R · 29-12-2009 4:40pm

Thats an awful article. Whatever about the implementation, I don't think I have heard any dissent on the purpose or need for the interconnector.

Metrobest · 29-12-2009 4:43pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

The loop line bridge (Tara st.) is the most congested part of the network. The plan mentioned above will have half the DART lines completely bypassing this line so Howth / Malahide to Kildare will not affect the DART service.

With all these trains removed you no longer have Maynooth trains competing with Northern trains for space. This allows a much greater frequency of trains from Maynooth to Bray.

It is not possible to increase the frequency (any where near the level this allows) with out by passing the loop line and Connolly station. I believe Connolly can not handle any additional services.:)

I am supportive of any new underground rail project that has a sustainable economic or social benefit for the city of Dublin. Dart Underground needs further assessment and a proper cost-benefit analysis before it should be advanced.

A few observations:
- Dart underground will service Nama land housing estates that were, and are, not conducive to mass transit. Will there be a comprehensive planning strategy to densify the areas within walking distance of its stations?
- Outside of peak hours, where will the demand for Dart Underground come from? What attractions will it have over the private car?
- The loop line bridge is one of Dublin's biggest eyesores. Dart Underground should encompass its removal.

The biggest worries for me are lack of any clear overarching planning strategy to justify Dart Underground; the unknown factors of cost and actual passenger demand, Irish Rail's proven inability to manage large scale projects (it couldn't even extend the platforms of the Dart stations on time).

Worst of all though, is the shortsighted approach to the hideous loop line bridge, which is like an ugly wart on the face of Dublin. This elevated railway line should be dismantled entirely. Neither Tara nor Connolly are suited to their current roles ; the only way to expand their capacity is underground.

The focus on Docklands is interesting, but for this project I can't help wondering if it would not be better to run the Kildare-bound tunnel underneath Pearse and to connect with Metro North at an underground O'Connell Bridge/Tara interchange. Tara street overground station could be done away with completely.

Before I am dismissed as crazy, for an example of such an interchange please see Madrid's new station at Plaza del Sol. It combines Renfe commuter trains with Madrid's metro in a massive underground cavern right in the heart of the city. It is an engineering wonder.

Cookie_Monster · 29-12-2009 4:49pm

Metrobest wrote: »

- The loop line bridge is one of Dublin's biggest eyesores. Dart Underground should encompass its removal.

It one of the most recognisable features, and rather a nice looking bridge compared to some of the others along the river.

Granted the place may well look better but that said it is necessary with/without the inter connector. I imagine the diesel will not be allowed use this

Bluetonic · 29-12-2009 4:56pm

This thread is like a mash together of posts from existing threads.

I had to check the date a couple of times.

Metrobest · 29-12-2009 4:59pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It one of the most recognisable features, and rather a nice looking bridge compared to some of the others along the river.

Granted the place may well look better but that said it is necessary with/without the inter connector. I imagine the diesel will not be allowed use this

It obscures views of the Customs House and cuts off the Docklands from the rest of the city.

How it would work is this:
The loop line bridge is dismantled.

Southside diesel trains terminate at Pearse, Northside at Connolly.

Dart Underground connects the network via a tunnel between East Wall and Heuston, via Connolly/Tara/Pearse (four tracks between East Wall and Pearse).

dowlingm · 29-12-2009 5:05pm

One thing that could be contemplated to placate the whingers would be to run Howth services to Bray while Malahide etc. ran to Hazelhatch. This could be predicated on only Maynooth electric service going into Connolly and Navan/Pace staying diesel and going into a now-permanent Docklands surface station.

After all, I don't think anything is actually going to be physically "split" in terms of connections from Northern Line to Connolly, otherwise Enterprise wouldn't work!

noelfirl · 29-12-2009 5:10pm

Southside diesel trains terminate at Pearse,

Only two platforms, only two tracks, no room for expansion.

Northside at Connolly.

Congestion abounds.

Dart Underground connects the network via a tunnel between East Wall and Heuston, via Connolly/Tara/Pearse (four tracks between East Wall and Pearse).

Where do DARTs from Bray go (not just "inventing a tunnel", they have to go from elevated to subterranean via what sort of alignment, and thus how to get onto the Western line to Maynooth)?

There's no overwhelming need to remove the Loopline, since the removal of ads and the nice repaint, it's actually robustly pretty.

paulm17781 · 29-12-2009 5:10pm

Metrobest wrote: »

<snip>

Been over this with you a million times. Not going through it again.

The IC is the most important project in T21. All the others become less relevant without it.

What you're proposing above is a completely separate project to this one. Start a fantasy thread for that one. I've educated 2 - 3 people (who posted) on this thread. Let us not confuse them again.

Judgement Day · 29-12-2009 5:23pm

Metrobest wrote: »

It obscures views of the Customs House and cuts off the Docklands from the rest of the city.

How it would work is this:
The loop line bridge is dismantled.

Southside diesel trains terminate at Pearse, Northside at Connolly.

Dart Underground connects the network via a tunnel between East Wall and Heuston, via Connolly/Tara/Pearse (four tracks between East Wall and Pearse).

Where exactly would this leave inter-city service connections between Rosslare line trains and the rest of the network? How would freight workings to the South East operate when they are eventually restored? This nonsense about removing the Loop line bridge was last aired by elitist architects in the Irish Times about 1960 - I have the cutting somewhere - and I thought this nonsense had gone the way of the Dodo. The biggest problem I have with the Interconnector is that it is being proposed by CIE who have no credibility in operating, building or anything else to do with railways. If the interconnector was about closing railways, selling off property etc. and being proposed by CIE I would bow to their expertise in the field but building railways.....ffs.

mysterious · 29-12-2009 6:02pm

So basically if I live in Clontarf and want to go Dun Laoighaire, i will go as far as Eastwall and head to Pearse station? Get off the dart there and hop onto the Original dart line South of Pearse?

Is that how it is, I'm just not sure of the proposed layout. it does seem a little confusing to me.

Cool Mo D · 29-12-2009 6:15pm

mysterious wrote: »

So basically if I live in Clontarf and want to go Dun Laoighaire, i will go as far as Eastwall and head to Pearse station? Get off the dart there and hop onto the Original dart line South of Pearse?

Is that how it is, I'm just not sure of the proposed layout. it does seem a little confusing to me.

If you live in Clontarf, get on at Clontarf road, or Killester, whichever was closer. You will be on the DART line from Howth/Malahide to Hazelhatch. At Pearse station, change to the other DART line which goes from Maynooth to Bray/Greystones.

The original line will be replaced by 2 DART lines which form an X shape centred on Pearse station.

dowlingm · 29-12-2009 6:16pm

mysterious - yes, transfers between Northern and Kildare lines for all stations to Rosslare will happen at Pearse.

Kingdom · 29-12-2009 6:25pm

mysterious wrote: »

So basically if I live in Clontarf and want to go Dun Laoighaire, i will go as far as Eastwall and head to Pearse station? Get off the dart there and hop onto the Original dart line South of Pearse?

Is that how it is, I'm just not sure of the proposed layout. it does seem a little confusing to me.

Would you not be better off using your yacht? :cool:
Only kidding, the one question I'd have, is why only two tunnels? IE in my decade of using them always seem to balls up travel on the Kildare line at some point during the week. With the new interconnector it seems trains would come to a standstill if a train broke down in a tunnel.

Hungerford · 29-12-2009 6:42pm

Metrobest wrote: »

Worst of all though, is the shortsighted approach to the hideous loop line bridge, which is like an ugly wart on the face of Dublin. This elevated railway line should be dismantled entirely. Neither Tara nor Connolly are suited to their current roles; the only way to expand their capacity is underground.

Based on what has happened previously in Ireland, I would say removing the Loop Line bridge would actually be the shortsighted option.

Most cities have elevated railway lines and the Loop Line does its job particularly well: its main flaws are down to CIE's failure to resignal it in recent years.

Tara St's problems are down to capacity issues too and CIE's failure to build an appropriate station to meet its importance on the network.

The line's speed is actually higher than that through the Dart Underground tunnel will be and it's quite flexible in terms of how it can be operated. It's also become a somewhat iconic structure and seems popular with tourists because of the city view it provides.

Hungerford · 29-12-2009 6:45pm

KC61 wrote: »

At the moment every train that operates to Maynooth uses a slot that could be used for a Northern line train from the loop line bridge. Every train from Maynooth blocks both Northern line directions.

You forgot to mention the fact that if Maynooth or Northern line trains have to terminate at Pearse, that also blocks both directions.

KC61 · 29-12-2009 8:08pm

Hungerford wrote: »

You forgot to mention the fact that if Maynooth or Northern line trains have to terminate at Pearse, that also blocks both directions.

They won't once the city centre resignalling is completed.

Platform 2 at Grand Canal Dock will be a turnback platform, with platforms 1 and 3 being the through platforms. This will eliminate this problem that as you correctly observe happens at Pearse.

BrianD · 29-12-2009 10:26pm

Oh here we go again, Metrobest with a load of old RPA do it better than CIE blather. Uninformed

Metrobest wrote: »

I am supportive of any new underground rail project that has a sustainable economic or social benefit for the city of Dublin. Dart Underground needs further assessment and a proper cost-benefit analysis before it should be advanced.

Really? The benefits are pretty obvious and well documented. Odd you should ask this that you backed without question the mickey mouse LUAS, sorry Metro, to the airport. Thankfully this has been modified to serve Swords. In reality it should be a DART line going to the airport but then the RPA don't do DART.

A few observations:
- Dart underground will service Nama land housing estates that were, and are, not conducive to mass transit. Will there be a comprehensive planning strategy to densify the areas within walking distance of its stations?

I am presuming that you are referring to the north Docklands area. Correct to say that is now very much NAMA land and construction has stalled. If it hadn't it would be high density development which is IDEALLY suited to DART (metro) servicing the area. How on earth can you state that this type of development is not suited to DART?

- Outside of peak hours, where will the demand for Dart Underground come from? What attractions will it have over the private car?

Hmmm... the attraction that it is the DART perhaps? The ability to use improved metro transport to other locations in the city? It also facilitates better linkage and integration of the existing rail network and adding new stations within the city.

- The loop line bridge is one of Dublin's biggest eyesores. Dart Underground should encompass its removal.

AFAIK the loop bridge stays in. It would be great to see it go though.

The biggest worries for me are lack of any clear overarching planning strategy to justify Dart Underground; the unknown factors of cost and actual passenger demand, Irish Rail's proven inability to manage large scale projects (it couldn't even extend the platforms of the Dart stations on time).

If boards.ie had a bullsh*t meter it would be off the scale with the above. IR actually do have a good record of delivering projects on time unlike the RPA. Let's not forget the breaking eggs to make an omlette fiasco we had during the construction of the green and red lines. The fact that there is no price tag on the Metro North ... the list is endless. The DART tunnel has a price tag on it and a cleraly defined purpose. Tram North started life as a vanity project which has thankfully been whipped into some sort of useful routing.

There is a very clear strategy on what the tunnel will do and the two distinct lines that will be created. To be frank, we should have Dart-ifed the Maynooth and Kildare lines as soon as the coastal line was completed in 1984. You can't blame CIE for this only the political masters (the same ones that scuppered the Green and Red line tram link ups).

Worst of all though, is the shortsighted approach to the hideous loop line bridge, which is like an ugly wart on the face of Dublin. This elevated railway line should be dismantled entirely. Neither Tara nor Connolly are suited to their current roles ; the only way to expand their capacity is underground.

I would like to see the loop gone. I don't know how it can be at this point in time.

The focus on Docklands is interesting, but for this project I can't help wondering if it would not be better to run the Kildare-bound tunnel underneath Pearse and to connect with Metro North at an underground O'Connell Bridge/Tara interchange. Tara street overground station could be done away with completely.

Let's face it, it seems to be that the RPA quango have problems with linking up with other modes of rail transport. They rarely show them on the their consultation maps and have had ample opportunity to select a route that would better link into existing stations. In fact, I would hazard a guess that it's a "by the way" that Tram North actually meets the DART at Stephens Green.

There isn't a focus on the Docklands by the DART Underground section. there will only be one station in the area that will become a densely populated area in time. CIE/IR already owns land in the area so it cuts down on land acquisition costs for the tunnel portal.

Before I am dismissed as crazy, for an example of such an interchange please see Madrid's new station at Plaza del Sol. It combines Renfe commuter trains with Madrid's metro in a massive underground cavern right in the heart of the city. It is an engineering wonder.

I'm sure it is but it's a much larger city.

Cookie_Monster · 30-12-2009 10:06am

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The original line will be replaced by 2 DART lines which form an X shape centred on Pearse station.

Will all services in Pearse use the same two tracks then?

Or will one line be under Pearse?

Pity the closed in all those old platforms, could probably use them to good effect when this come in, separating the two lines and increase the station capacity

paulm17781 · 30-12-2009 10:29am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Or will one line be under Pearse?

The new line will be under Pearse st.

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 11:33am

It's surely a complex engineering task to get rid of the loop line bridge but for city beautification and regeneration it's essential that this happens as part of the Dart Underground project. The loop line spoils views of the Customs House and essentially cuts Docklands off from the rest of the city leading to social exclusion.

Call me an elitist if you like, but does anyone seriously believe a bridge as ugly as the loop line's would be allowed to remain in such a sensitive area of another European city? It would've been buried years ago.

CIE has no interest in removing the loop line because CIE doesn't care about design. Heuston station is incredibly awful looking. All CIE cares about is lining its own pockets. Hence the large Bulmers ad I noticed on the Busaras side of the bridge last week, spoiling the otherwise pretty view of the Customs.

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 11:36am

BrianD wrote: »

I would like to see the loop gone. I don't know how it can be at this point in time.

.

At least we agree on one thing!

Where there's a will there's a way (to get rid of the loop line bridge) but within CIE, never one to think outside of the box, there is literally no will to get rid of the eyesore.

Cookie_Monster · 30-12-2009 11:40am

Metrobest wrote: »

. Hence the large Bulmers ad I noticed on the Busaras side of the bridge last week, spoiling the otherwise pretty view of the Customs.

There's been Bulmers adds on it for years and years, fairly iconic ones too.

How about we just get rid of Busaras as it an unsightly, hideous mess of a building also? Never mind that its gotten world wide note for its architecture.

I personally find the bridge more impressive than the customs house from an engineering point of view.

JHMEG · 30-12-2009 1:24pm

I never understood why this needed to be so complicated an expensive.

The loop line is always cited as a problem. Why can't it be widened?

If it can't... just construct an underground section in Connolly and run Maynooth services into it. Run the Luas from St Stephen's Green underground into the new part of Connolly. Job done, and in a more desirebale fashion as Connolly is a single hub for all rail transport in Dublin.

paulm17781 · 30-12-2009 1:29pm

JHMEG wrote: »

I never understood why this needed to be so complicated an expensive.

The loop line is always cited as a problem. Why can't it be widened?

If it can't... just construct an underground section in Connolly and run Maynooth services into it. Run the Luas from St Stephen's Green underground into the new part of Connolly. Job done, and in a more desirebale fashion as Connolly is a single hub for all rail transport in Dublin.

I think you're missing the point of what the proposed project achieves. There will be two DART lines in the city forming an X shape. They will open up parts of the city which currently have no rail. Link all rail based public transport and able far greater movement for people.

Widening the loop line won't achieve this, there would also be a lot of land needing to be bought, building demolished. NIMBYs saying it will block the custom house (even though it already does).

Trust me, if this is built, we will all be grateful it was.

Victor · 30-12-2009 4:01pm

Metrobest wrote: »

It's surely a complex engineering task to get rid of the loop line bridge but for city beautification and regeneration it's essential that this happens as part of the Dart Underground project. The loop line spoils views of the Customs House and essentially cuts Docklands off from the rest of the city leading to social exclusion.

Call me an elitist if you like, but does anyone seriously believe a bridge as ugly as the loop line's would be allowed to remain in such a sensitive area of another European city? It would've been buried years ago.

CIE has no interest in removing the loop line because CIE doesn't care about design. Heuston station is incredibly awful looking. All CIE cares about is lining its own pockets. Hence the large Bulmers ad I noticed on the Busaras side of the bridge last week, spoiling the otherwise pretty view of the Customs.

Can we try yo keep this on topic?

Hungerford · 30-12-2009 4:04pm

Metrobest wrote: »

Call me an elitist if you like, but does anyone seriously believe a bridge as ugly as the loop line's would be allowed to remain in such a sensitive area of another European city? It would've been buried years ago.

Doubt it - if only because it has become part of our cultural heritage - it was referred to by Joyce in Ulysses. David Norris and his mates would probably chain themselves to it to prevent its demolition.

Carawaystick · 30-12-2009 4:06pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

The new line will be under Pearse st.

and will be twin track

paulm17781 · 30-12-2009 4:18pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

and will be twin track

Yes, well, there will be two tracks. I can't remember if it's going to be one tunnel divided or two separate tunnels.

Victor · 30-12-2009 4:47pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

Yes, well, there will be two tracks. I can't remember if it's going to be one tunnel divided or two separate tunnels.

Both Metro North and the Interconnector are going with two separate tunnels. While slightly move expensive, separate tunnels means less settlement in a particular area (small volume removed) and better operational capability - an incident / accident doesn't close both tracks.

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 5:06pm

JHMEG wrote: »

I never understood why this needed to be so complicated an expensive.

If it can't... just construct an underground section in Connolly and run Maynooth services into it. Run the Luas from St Stephen's Green underground into the new part of Connolly. Job done, and in a more desirebale fashion as Connolly is a single hub for all rail transport in Dublin.

I agree. Instead of running a tunnel to Inchicore under Viking Dublin (bound to throw up delays), they could build build a vast underground hub somewhere in the vicinity of Tara/Connolly, and an underground termnius at the Green.

It could be a metro/dart hub like Sol station in Madrid. In Madrid, they placed this huge underground cavern underneath the city's main square to link commuter and metro trains. It's an incredible piece of engineering and has to be seen to be belived, but here's a picture.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/26050867.jpg

Northside darts could terminate at the Green while southside trains could terminate at Pearse. Maynooth trains could terminate at Connolly on the surface.

This would allow the loop line bridge to be demolished.

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 5:13pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

How about we just get rid of Busaras as it an unsightly, hideous mess of a building also? Never mind that its gotten world wide note for its architecture.

I personally find the bridge more impressive than the customs house from an engineering point of view.

Don't put words in my mouth.

But improving the transport system would allow Busaras to be relocated. Imagine then, that the buses were gone from Busaras, the railings and car park around Busaras removed, and the loop line bridge demolished. The whole area would be completely transformed from an eyesore into the cultural centre of Dublin.

It's that sort of joined up thinking that we need, and Dart Underground is the catylst that could bring this project to fruition.

CIE's vision, instead, is to contruct a tunnel to Inchicore to service Nama housing estates in the suburban sprawl of Leinster.

SeanW · 30-12-2009 5:26pm

Ok, first of all, you do realise that the Interconnector proposal pre-dates NAMA by about 7 years? The Interconnector Plan also will not serve "the sprawl of Leinster" as it will only extend the DART to Hazelhatch, Co. Dublin.

Not only that but the focus is on creating a new DART service within the city, (i.e. the stops in Stephens Green, the Digital Hub, Pearse, the Docklands etc) which will provide a backbone linking all the other transport modes in the city. The function of Interconnector is much like Crossrail in London, or the existing trunk lines in Berlin and Munich for example.

You cannot remove the Loop Line bridge because it would effectively isolate the DSE line from the national network. The direct connection between Connolly and Pearse is very beneficial from a passenger POV and Tara St. is a very important station. There is no possible way in which any railway passenger would benefit at all from the bridges removal.

deiseman21 · 30-12-2009 5:32pm

Maye someone needs to list the services (ie... the train or tram lines) availeable from each of the following stations
If we name the split dart lines
MALAHIDE/HOWTH-HAZELHATCH/HEUSTON dart north and
GREYSTONES/BRAY-MAYNOOTH dart south

heuston.....intercity to the south-dart north-luas red line
stephens green.....metro north-luas green line-dart north
pearse street....dart north-dart south-intercity to south east
connolly....enterprise-intercity to northwest and west-commuter lines
to louth meath and kildare-dart south-luas red line

If i've missed anything please feel free to correct me as far as i can guess only these 4 station will be affected

deiseman21 · 30-12-2009 5:48pm

Metrobest wrote: »

I agree. Instead of running a tunnel to Inchicore under Viking Dublin (bound to throw up delays), they could build build a vast underground hub somewhere in the vicinity of Tara/Connolly, and an underground termnius at the Green.

It could be a metro/dart hub like Sol station in Madrid. In Madrid, they placed this huge underground cavern underneath the city's main square to link commuter and metro trains. It's an incredible piece of engineering and has to be seen to be belived, but here's a picture.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/26050867.jpg

Northside darts could terminate at the Green while southside trains could terminate at Pearse. Maynooth trains could terminate at Connolly on the surface.

This would allow the loop line bridge to be demolished.

completely missing the point
its about being able to get from one area of the city to another while still on the rail network,and not walking inbetween stations in the process

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 6:19pm

noelfirl wrote: »

Only two platforms, only two tracks, no room for expansion.

Congestion abounds.

Where do DARTs from Bray go (not just "inventing a tunnel", they have to go from elevated to subterranean via what sort of alignment, and thus how to get onto the Western line to Maynooth)?

There's no overwhelming need to remove the Loopline, since the removal of ads and the nice repaint, it's actually robustly pretty.

Is it not possible to have a tunnel portal to the Bray line somewhere near Pearse and have it run underground to a new hub under Connolly/Tara. Presumably, there is engineering scope here to do something, as CIE has slated an underground station to be built at Pearse. Why this station cannot connect to a Connolly underground hub and remove the loop line eyesore has not been explained.

Overhead and surface railway lines are being removed in cities all over the world.

Melbourne buried its lines at Flinders Street station to build Federation Square.

Barcelona buried a costal line when it built the Olympics.

Paris... buried a railway line and built an elevated park in its place.

Fity years from now, the decision to build Dart Underground without rectifying the loop line bridge mistake will be rued by planners, architects and social workers.

[Irish Times - 29 Dec. 2009] Dart line to be split

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