[Irish Times - 29 Dec. 2009] Dart line to be split

KC61 · 29-12-2009 8:08pm

Hungerford wrote: »

You forgot to mention the fact that if Maynooth or Northern line trains have to terminate at Pearse, that also blocks both directions.

They won't once the city centre resignalling is completed.

Platform 2 at Grand Canal Dock will be a turnback platform, with platforms 1 and 3 being the through platforms. This will eliminate this problem that as you correctly observe happens at Pearse.

BrianD · 29-12-2009 10:26pm

Oh here we go again, Metrobest with a load of old RPA do it better than CIE blather. Uninformed

Metrobest wrote: »

I am supportive of any new underground rail project that has a sustainable economic or social benefit for the city of Dublin. Dart Underground needs further assessment and a proper cost-benefit analysis before it should be advanced.

Really? The benefits are pretty obvious and well documented. Odd you should ask this that you backed without question the mickey mouse LUAS, sorry Metro, to the airport. Thankfully this has been modified to serve Swords. In reality it should be a DART line going to the airport but then the RPA don't do DART.

A few observations:
- Dart underground will service Nama land housing estates that were, and are, not conducive to mass transit. Will there be a comprehensive planning strategy to densify the areas within walking distance of its stations?

I am presuming that you are referring to the north Docklands area. Correct to say that is now very much NAMA land and construction has stalled. If it hadn't it would be high density development which is IDEALLY suited to DART (metro) servicing the area. How on earth can you state that this type of development is not suited to DART?

- Outside of peak hours, where will the demand for Dart Underground come from? What attractions will it have over the private car?

Hmmm... the attraction that it is the DART perhaps? The ability to use improved metro transport to other locations in the city? It also facilitates better linkage and integration of the existing rail network and adding new stations within the city.

- The loop line bridge is one of Dublin's biggest eyesores. Dart Underground should encompass its removal.

AFAIK the loop bridge stays in. It would be great to see it go though.

The biggest worries for me are lack of any clear overarching planning strategy to justify Dart Underground; the unknown factors of cost and actual passenger demand, Irish Rail's proven inability to manage large scale projects (it couldn't even extend the platforms of the Dart stations on time).

If boards.ie had a bullsh*t meter it would be off the scale with the above. IR actually do have a good record of delivering projects on time unlike the RPA. Let's not forget the breaking eggs to make an omlette fiasco we had during the construction of the green and red lines. The fact that there is no price tag on the Metro North ... the list is endless. The DART tunnel has a price tag on it and a cleraly defined purpose. Tram North started life as a vanity project which has thankfully been whipped into some sort of useful routing.

There is a very clear strategy on what the tunnel will do and the two distinct lines that will be created. To be frank, we should have Dart-ifed the Maynooth and Kildare lines as soon as the coastal line was completed in 1984. You can't blame CIE for this only the political masters (the same ones that scuppered the Green and Red line tram link ups).

Worst of all though, is the shortsighted approach to the hideous loop line bridge, which is like an ugly wart on the face of Dublin. This elevated railway line should be dismantled entirely. Neither Tara nor Connolly are suited to their current roles ; the only way to expand their capacity is underground.

I would like to see the loop gone. I don't know how it can be at this point in time.

The focus on Docklands is interesting, but for this project I can't help wondering if it would not be better to run the Kildare-bound tunnel underneath Pearse and to connect with Metro North at an underground O'Connell Bridge/Tara interchange. Tara street overground station could be done away with completely.

Let's face it, it seems to be that the RPA quango have problems with linking up with other modes of rail transport. They rarely show them on the their consultation maps and have had ample opportunity to select a route that would better link into existing stations. In fact, I would hazard a guess that it's a "by the way" that Tram North actually meets the DART at Stephens Green.

There isn't a focus on the Docklands by the DART Underground section. there will only be one station in the area that will become a densely populated area in time. CIE/IR already owns land in the area so it cuts down on land acquisition costs for the tunnel portal.

Before I am dismissed as crazy, for an example of such an interchange please see Madrid's new station at Plaza del Sol. It combines Renfe commuter trains with Madrid's metro in a massive underground cavern right in the heart of the city. It is an engineering wonder.

I'm sure it is but it's a much larger city.

Cookie_Monster · 30-12-2009 10:06am

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The original line will be replaced by 2 DART lines which form an X shape centred on Pearse station.

Will all services in Pearse use the same two tracks then?

Or will one line be under Pearse?

Pity the closed in all those old platforms, could probably use them to good effect when this come in, separating the two lines and increase the station capacity

paulm17781 · 30-12-2009 10:29am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Or will one line be under Pearse?

The new line will be under Pearse st.

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 11:33am

It's surely a complex engineering task to get rid of the loop line bridge but for city beautification and regeneration it's essential that this happens as part of the Dart Underground project. The loop line spoils views of the Customs House and essentially cuts Docklands off from the rest of the city leading to social exclusion.

Call me an elitist if you like, but does anyone seriously believe a bridge as ugly as the loop line's would be allowed to remain in such a sensitive area of another European city? It would've been buried years ago.

CIE has no interest in removing the loop line because CIE doesn't care about design. Heuston station is incredibly awful looking. All CIE cares about is lining its own pockets. Hence the large Bulmers ad I noticed on the Busaras side of the bridge last week, spoiling the otherwise pretty view of the Customs.

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 11:36am

BrianD wrote: »

I would like to see the loop gone. I don't know how it can be at this point in time.

.

At least we agree on one thing!

Where there's a will there's a way (to get rid of the loop line bridge) but within CIE, never one to think outside of the box, there is literally no will to get rid of the eyesore.

Cookie_Monster · 30-12-2009 11:40am

Metrobest wrote: »

. Hence the large Bulmers ad I noticed on the Busaras side of the bridge last week, spoiling the otherwise pretty view of the Customs.

There's been Bulmers adds on it for years and years, fairly iconic ones too.

How about we just get rid of Busaras as it an unsightly, hideous mess of a building also? Never mind that its gotten world wide note for its architecture.

I personally find the bridge more impressive than the customs house from an engineering point of view.

JHMEG · 30-12-2009 1:24pm

I never understood why this needed to be so complicated an expensive.

The loop line is always cited as a problem. Why can't it be widened?

If it can't... just construct an underground section in Connolly and run Maynooth services into it. Run the Luas from St Stephen's Green underground into the new part of Connolly. Job done, and in a more desirebale fashion as Connolly is a single hub for all rail transport in Dublin.

paulm17781 · 30-12-2009 1:29pm

JHMEG wrote: »

I never understood why this needed to be so complicated an expensive.

The loop line is always cited as a problem. Why can't it be widened?

If it can't... just construct an underground section in Connolly and run Maynooth services into it. Run the Luas from St Stephen's Green underground into the new part of Connolly. Job done, and in a more desirebale fashion as Connolly is a single hub for all rail transport in Dublin.

I think you're missing the point of what the proposed project achieves. There will be two DART lines in the city forming an X shape. They will open up parts of the city which currently have no rail. Link all rail based public transport and able far greater movement for people.

Widening the loop line won't achieve this, there would also be a lot of land needing to be bought, building demolished. NIMBYs saying it will block the custom house (even though it already does).

Trust me, if this is built, we will all be grateful it was.

Victor · 30-12-2009 4:01pm

Metrobest wrote: »

It's surely a complex engineering task to get rid of the loop line bridge but for city beautification and regeneration it's essential that this happens as part of the Dart Underground project. The loop line spoils views of the Customs House and essentially cuts Docklands off from the rest of the city leading to social exclusion.

Call me an elitist if you like, but does anyone seriously believe a bridge as ugly as the loop line's would be allowed to remain in such a sensitive area of another European city? It would've been buried years ago.

CIE has no interest in removing the loop line because CIE doesn't care about design. Heuston station is incredibly awful looking. All CIE cares about is lining its own pockets. Hence the large Bulmers ad I noticed on the Busaras side of the bridge last week, spoiling the otherwise pretty view of the Customs.

Can we try yo keep this on topic?

Hungerford · 30-12-2009 4:04pm

Metrobest wrote: »

Call me an elitist if you like, but does anyone seriously believe a bridge as ugly as the loop line's would be allowed to remain in such a sensitive area of another European city? It would've been buried years ago.

Doubt it - if only because it has become part of our cultural heritage - it was referred to by Joyce in Ulysses. David Norris and his mates would probably chain themselves to it to prevent its demolition.

Carawaystick · 30-12-2009 4:06pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

The new line will be under Pearse st.

and will be twin track

paulm17781 · 30-12-2009 4:18pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

and will be twin track

Yes, well, there will be two tracks. I can't remember if it's going to be one tunnel divided or two separate tunnels.

Victor · 30-12-2009 4:47pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

Yes, well, there will be two tracks. I can't remember if it's going to be one tunnel divided or two separate tunnels.

Both Metro North and the Interconnector are going with two separate tunnels. While slightly move expensive, separate tunnels means less settlement in a particular area (small volume removed) and better operational capability - an incident / accident doesn't close both tracks.

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 5:06pm

JHMEG wrote: »

I never understood why this needed to be so complicated an expensive.

If it can't... just construct an underground section in Connolly and run Maynooth services into it. Run the Luas from St Stephen's Green underground into the new part of Connolly. Job done, and in a more desirebale fashion as Connolly is a single hub for all rail transport in Dublin.

I agree. Instead of running a tunnel to Inchicore under Viking Dublin (bound to throw up delays), they could build build a vast underground hub somewhere in the vicinity of Tara/Connolly, and an underground termnius at the Green.

It could be a metro/dart hub like Sol station in Madrid. In Madrid, they placed this huge underground cavern underneath the city's main square to link commuter and metro trains. It's an incredible piece of engineering and has to be seen to be belived, but here's a picture.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/26050867.jpg

Northside darts could terminate at the Green while southside trains could terminate at Pearse. Maynooth trains could terminate at Connolly on the surface.

This would allow the loop line bridge to be demolished.

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 5:13pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

How about we just get rid of Busaras as it an unsightly, hideous mess of a building also? Never mind that its gotten world wide note for its architecture.

I personally find the bridge more impressive than the customs house from an engineering point of view.

Don't put words in my mouth.

But improving the transport system would allow Busaras to be relocated. Imagine then, that the buses were gone from Busaras, the railings and car park around Busaras removed, and the loop line bridge demolished. The whole area would be completely transformed from an eyesore into the cultural centre of Dublin.

It's that sort of joined up thinking that we need, and Dart Underground is the catylst that could bring this project to fruition.

CIE's vision, instead, is to contruct a tunnel to Inchicore to service Nama housing estates in the suburban sprawl of Leinster.

SeanW · 30-12-2009 5:26pm

Ok, first of all, you do realise that the Interconnector proposal pre-dates NAMA by about 7 years? The Interconnector Plan also will not serve "the sprawl of Leinster" as it will only extend the DART to Hazelhatch, Co. Dublin.

Not only that but the focus is on creating a new DART service within the city, (i.e. the stops in Stephens Green, the Digital Hub, Pearse, the Docklands etc) which will provide a backbone linking all the other transport modes in the city. The function of Interconnector is much like Crossrail in London, or the existing trunk lines in Berlin and Munich for example.

You cannot remove the Loop Line bridge because it would effectively isolate the DSE line from the national network. The direct connection between Connolly and Pearse is very beneficial from a passenger POV and Tara St. is a very important station. There is no possible way in which any railway passenger would benefit at all from the bridges removal.

deiseman21 · 30-12-2009 5:32pm

Maye someone needs to list the services (ie... the train or tram lines) availeable from each of the following stations
If we name the split dart lines
MALAHIDE/HOWTH-HAZELHATCH/HEUSTON dart north and
GREYSTONES/BRAY-MAYNOOTH dart south

heuston.....intercity to the south-dart north-luas red line
stephens green.....metro north-luas green line-dart north
pearse street....dart north-dart south-intercity to south east
connolly....enterprise-intercity to northwest and west-commuter lines
to louth meath and kildare-dart south-luas red line

If i've missed anything please feel free to correct me as far as i can guess only these 4 station will be affected

deiseman21 · 30-12-2009 5:48pm

Metrobest wrote: »

I agree. Instead of running a tunnel to Inchicore under Viking Dublin (bound to throw up delays), they could build build a vast underground hub somewhere in the vicinity of Tara/Connolly, and an underground termnius at the Green.

It could be a metro/dart hub like Sol station in Madrid. In Madrid, they placed this huge underground cavern underneath the city's main square to link commuter and metro trains. It's an incredible piece of engineering and has to be seen to be belived, but here's a picture.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/26050867.jpg

Northside darts could terminate at the Green while southside trains could terminate at Pearse. Maynooth trains could terminate at Connolly on the surface.

This would allow the loop line bridge to be demolished.

completely missing the point
its about being able to get from one area of the city to another while still on the rail network,and not walking inbetween stations in the process

Metrobest · 30-12-2009 6:19pm

noelfirl wrote: »

Only two platforms, only two tracks, no room for expansion.

Congestion abounds.

Where do DARTs from Bray go (not just "inventing a tunnel", they have to go from elevated to subterranean via what sort of alignment, and thus how to get onto the Western line to Maynooth)?

There's no overwhelming need to remove the Loopline, since the removal of ads and the nice repaint, it's actually robustly pretty.

Is it not possible to have a tunnel portal to the Bray line somewhere near Pearse and have it run underground to a new hub under Connolly/Tara. Presumably, there is engineering scope here to do something, as CIE has slated an underground station to be built at Pearse. Why this station cannot connect to a Connolly underground hub and remove the loop line eyesore has not been explained.

Overhead and surface railway lines are being removed in cities all over the world.

Melbourne buried its lines at Flinders Street station to build Federation Square.

Barcelona buried a costal line when it built the Olympics.

Paris... buried a railway line and built an elevated park in its place.

Fity years from now, the decision to build Dart Underground without rectifying the loop line bridge mistake will be rued by planners, architects and social workers.

Hungerford · 30-12-2009 7:08pm

Metrobest wrote: »

Is it not possible to have a tunnel portal to the Bray line somewhere near Pearse and have it run underground to a new hub under Connolly/Tara.

That would isolate Pearse from the rest of the system and would make it impossible to run diesel-powered services to Rosslare. The Dart underground tunnels are going to be for designed electric trains only.

Again, there could also be protests from cultural figures and historians as the Pearse - Dun Laoghaire stretch of the line was the world's first commuter railway, having opened in 1834.

Hungerford · 30-12-2009 7:11pm

Metrobest wrote: »

Fity years from now, the decision to build Dart Underground without rectifying the loop line bridge mistake will be rued by planners, architects and social workers.

Huh?

The loop line has been around for nearly 12 years and I don't recall any banlieues springing up around it.

dowlingm · 30-12-2009 7:16pm

Metrobest

You ask is it not possible to have a portal near Pearse. Whip out Bing Maps Birds Eye View and tell us where your portal would go, accounting for the elevation change and therefore the gradient between +1 over ground to Level -1 (I'll be generous and say the Interconnector will go under yours at -2)

You're proposing this, the onus is on you to show how it would work.

This would be a multi-billion euro replacement for infrastructure that already exists, albeit overground, with massive construction impacts given the dense urban form. The replacement would not permit through diesel haul services between the Sligo and Rosslare outer networks, would impede maintenance movements since there is no depot on the Rosslare line to service the 22Ks and 28Ks and would not permit any notional freight movements with existing rolling stock.

The Dublin rail system is not a network but rather a series of radial lines into termini now linked by jerryrigged solutions and surrounded by buildings built right up against the alignments. It is what it is, and it's distracting the discussion from the reality of the project going forward - which hopefully it will continue to do notwithstanding the disaster that is the public finances.

Blackjack · 30-12-2009 7:30pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I personally find the bridge more impressive than the customs house from an engineering point of view.

Heathen!!;)

Carawaystick · 30-12-2009 11:41pm

Metrobest wrote: »

I agree. Instead of running a tunnel to Inchicore under Viking Dublin (bound to throw up delays), they could build build a vast underground hub somewhere in the vicinity of Tara/Connolly, and an underground termnius at the Green.

How does this get rail passengers who use the line into heuston to the city centre?
How does this get extra passengers into the city from Kildare, west Dublin, and further afield?

Judgement Day · 30-12-2009 11:51pm

Slight off topic but it seems to be the opinion of many posters on Boards.ie that inter-city rail travel is on its last legs so is there a need for the interconnector just to cater for Dublin commuters?

dowlingm · 30-12-2009 11:55pm

Judgement Day, I'm not sure how you got from one to the other there. After all, getting commuter traffic out of Heuston will certainly help platform availability for starters, which has held up many an intercity just short of destination.

Carawaystick · 31-12-2009 12:05am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Slight off topic but it seems to be the opinion of many posters on Boards.ie that inter-city rail travel is on its last legs so is there a need for the interconnector just to cater for Dublin commuters?

If commuters living in Carlow, Kildare, Laois, Offaly & west Dublin could get the train to dublin city centre instead of several km away, I'd imagine then there'd be a better service to market to potential customers, and potentially more of them on the train and less of them clogging up the streets by car. I'd imagine waiting for service times could (I wish I was confident to say would) be reduced gain increasing the attractiveness of rail.

L1011 · 31-12-2009 3:46am

Metrobest wrote: »

Is it not possible to have a tunnel portal to the Bray line somewhere near Pearse and have it run underground to a new hub under Connolly/Tara. Presumably, there is engineering scope here to do something, as CIE has slated an underground station to be built at Pearse. Why this station cannot connect to a Connolly underground hub and remove the loop line eyesore has not been explained.

There isnt the space to drop the line near Pearse, end of. Trains have a very limited maximum gradient and the existing line is *elevated*.

Metrobest wrote: »

Fity years from now, the decision to build Dart Underground without rectifying the loop line bridge mistake will be rued by planners, architects and social workers.

Architechts usually rue what people 5 years ago built, indeed what they built five years ago.

Social workers??

Cookie_Monster · 31-12-2009 9:51am

Metrobest wrote: »

Is it not possible to have a tunnel portal to the Bray line somewhere near Pearse and have it run underground to a new hub under Connolly/Tara. Presumably, there is engineering scope here to do something, as CIE has slated an underground station to be built at Pearse. Why this station cannot connect to a Connolly underground hub and remove the loop line eyesore has not been explained.

Overhead and surface railway lines are being removed in cities all over the world.

Melbourne buried its lines at Flinders Street station to build Federation Square.

Barcelona buried a costal line when it built the Olympics.

Paris... buried a railway line and built an elevated park in its place.

Fity years from now, the decision to build Dart Underground without rectifying the loop line bridge mistake will be rued by planners, architects and social workers.

Every one of your posts in this thread have been about getting rid of the line. Its a vital piece of infrastructure and a Dublin landmark and this will never change. It will still be there in 50 years regardless of other transport initiatives. Building a tunnel simply to replace a perfectly sound and capable bridge for no reason other than "it would look nice" is moronic and unjustifiable in every way.

Hungerford wrote: »

Huh?

The loop line has been around for nearly 12 years and I don't recall any banlieues springing up around it.

I may well be wrong but I imagine its a lot more than 12 years that line & bridge has been there :P

Blackjack wrote: »

Heathen!!;)

Engineer

[Irish Times - 29 Dec. 2009] Dart line to be split

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