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New Boards.ie Terms of Use and Privacy Policy - your feedback welcome

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    #212
    masteroftherealm
    Registered Users Posts: 3,141 ✭✭✭masteroftherealm


    ynotdu wrote: »
    There are grey area,s,read my post!
    If someone finds that their isp has given out the account holders name without going through the proper channels and the site used that in a malicious way then both in theory could be sued for breaching their Privacy t&c,s.

    Posters have rights also ya know!

    No, you are misunderstanding.
    The ISP in NOT giving out any information, boards is merely reporting their IP address and leaving it up to the ISP to take action. No ISP would ever give out account information to a company (Boards.ie LTD) without a court verdict against them.


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    #213
    ynotdu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ynotdu


    masteroftherealm wrote: »
    No, you are misunderstanding.
    The ISP in NOT giving out any information, boards is merely reporting their IP address and leaving it up to the ISP to take action. No ISP would ever give out account information to a company (Boards.ie LTD) without a court verdict against them.

    Well if you read some posts here and in the 'jail' forum Devore&some Admins have known which company to contact according to themselves.
    Boards gets our ip address(like nearly every site)but it would have to be someone working for the ISP to translate that address into a person for boards to contact.


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    #214
    masteroftherealm
    Registered Users Posts: 3,141 ✭✭✭masteroftherealm


    No, there are many many other ways all legal to find that info out.


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    #215
    ynotdu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ynotdu


    masteroftherealm wrote: »
    No, there are many many other ways all legal to find that info out.

    Name them! Who-is does'nt count they are usually hidden behind twenty PO box address's:),not to mention hidden ID.s Proxies VPN,s............................


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    #216
    masteroftherealm
    Registered Users Posts: 3,141 ✭✭✭masteroftherealm


    Whois, Google, LinkedIn, Previous Posts, Various Social Networking.
    Its veyr easy to find out where someone works if you have their IP and Usernames.


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    #217
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    masteroftherealm wrote: »
    Abuse of the site or posting illegal/defamatory material would be recourse to contact an ISP, IMO.
    And any legal challenge to that decision would stand up in a court due to existing laws, online is merely a new medium of communication, we have libel/defamation/incitement to hatred/racism/violence laws already on the statute books.

    Would it ?

    If I troll the site whilst at work and Dev complains to my boss it mightn't actually get to the law courts.

    When this has been invoked we've seen (anecdotally from Dev) that folks have had their employment terminated because going on Boards is against their employers T&C. Nothing to do with the content but a lot to do with the actual act of being on Boards.

    I'm a subscriber. Until May. Then I'll just be an ordinary user because the site is no longer a community and is now a commercial entity and therefore doesn't require "supporters".


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    #218
    ynotdu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ynotdu


    masteroftherealm wrote: »
    Whois, Google, LinkedIn, Previous Posts, Various Social Networking.
    Its veyr easy to find out where someone works if you have their IP and Usernames.

    ip adress's identify nobody,or usenames.anybody who gave out more info was kinda silly dont ya think?

    The account holder is legally responsible for anything that gets routed through their ip address though.


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    #219
    Rev. BlueJeans
    Closed Accounts Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Rev. BlueJeans


    parsi wrote: »

    When this has been invoked we've seen (anecdotally from Dev) that folks have had their employment terminated because going on Boards is against their employers T&C. Nothing to do with the content but a lot to do with the actual act of being on Boards.

    Indeed. Not only anecdotally from DeV, but anecdotally from others too, IP info (which can be enough to nail a company-coupled with an email or other info, a person too) seems to have been given out*, without recourse to any privacy policy. One poster has revelled in the fact that they got someone sacked.

    We've hit upon an anomaly here between rigid legalese, and those with extra buttons, in most cases granted on a voluntary basis-one on which this site is built and has flourished, due to it's meritocracy, and in some cases, in spite of incompetency and favouritism, looking after third parties by providing such information.
    parsi wrote: »
    I'm a subscriber. Until May. Then I'll just be an ordinary user because the site is no longer a community and is now a commercial entity and therefore doesn't require "supporters".

    It hasn't been that hard up for quite a while.

    At the end of the day, I fully support the need to nail down a few things. However, such ring-fencing needs to be a two way street.

    *edit: It's been kindly clarified to me that the situation quoted in the thread related to journals.ie-where comments are IP matched and accessible quite normally by the journal authors themselves. As such, no private info was given out by an administrator. I'm happy to correct this, and thank the user who explained the situation :)


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    #220
    Rev. BlueJeans
    Closed Accounts Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Rev. BlueJeans


    Incidentally, and without wearing a tinfoil hat-it is often cited on here, that accessing non reported PMs, is a matter of trawling through the database at length, and that such is only done in extreme circumstance.

    The monitoring of such messages can be done quite easily by means of a vBulletin add-on, which may or may not be a part of the software this site uses. While I'd take the powers that be at their word, and so assume they don't run such a utility-to claim that monitoring such data is such a mammoth task is somewhat misleading.


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    #221
    Darragh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Darragh


    Folks, with all due respect, if you have questions, queries or issue with what Boards.ie has or may have done in the past, can you bring it to a new thread please? This thread is for feedback on the new TOU, not for decrying the current status. I can completely understand your perspective, yet I'm stuck in a position where all I can change is the future by dealing with the present. The past I can do nothing about.

    If you have direct questions or feedback for me as a boards.ie employee, then do that in a new thread unless it's relevant to the TOU and the purpose of this thread.

    Thank you

    Darragh


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    #222
    HereSince2003
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭HereSince2003


    Ponster wrote: »
    It's not the answer that you're looking for but seeing as you didn't actually create an account in 2003 you would never have seen the T&C.

    People who lurk don't have to sign up/agree to anything.

    Here since 2003 is incorrect. I messed my reg up. I was sure biscuits was spelt biscuts 2000.03
    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    Did you see the ones when you signed up in 2009?

    No, unless you mean the welcome email and PM. Which do not contain any reference to T&C's. But do stae the Rules that one agrees to when signing up.There is also link on the front page to the Terms and Privacy.
    masteroftherealm wrote: »
    When u signed up to vbulletins software u agreed to a T&C statement, so yes there was a T&C a long ling way back.... always has been.

    That is correct. Do feel free to post a copy of it. They have nothing to do with these new ones.
    Ponster wrote: »
    I thought of that but then considered the idea of someone signing up with a second account just to ask a question in feedback a little too "tin-foil hat" for me.

    I am under the impression that if I login I agree to the new T&C's so I took an alternative choice.
    masteroftherealm wrote: »
    These T&C's come down to one thing, some of us have been around for a long time and know how boards "used" to be. But people have to realise boards is no longer a small community website, its one of the most popular sites in the country and is a company also, nit just a few mates running a forum.
    A company MUST protect itself from litigation and thats what the T&C's are, if you read back I have personal issues with a some paragraphs from a profesisonal standpoint but overall I understand that a large company with investors must protect its liabilities.

    Totally agree. Why not have a pop up when people log in were they click yes or no? Not an issue for new reg's as it would be linked to in the registration process?


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    #223
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    Darragh wrote: »
    Folks, with all due respect, if you have questions, queries or issue with what Boards.ie has or may have done in the past, can you bring it to a new thread please? This thread is for feedback on the new TOU, not for decrying the current status. I can completely understand your perspective, yet I'm stuck in a position where all I can change is the future by dealing with the present. The past I can do nothing about.

    With all due respect behaviour in the past is used as a yardstick to judge current behaviour & possible behaviour in the future.

    So those of us who've been around for a while are necessarily going to view the new T&Cs through the lenses of past behaviour by boards.ie.

    It's life, and the way life works so build a bridge and get over it.


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    #224
    Darragh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Darragh


    Ha, Parsi, made me laugh. "build a bridge and get over it" - interesting advice.


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    #225
    CFlower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭CFlower


    masteroftherealm wrote: »
    No, you are misunderstanding.
    The ISP in NOT giving out any information, boards is merely reporting their IP address and leaving it up to the ISP to take action. No ISP would ever give out account information to a company (Boards.ie LTD) without a court verdict against them.

    This is a not well tested area. Certainly, the poster's user name, email address and IP details in many cases add up to an indentifiable person or PC. While some more cautious, or less amenable, may be concealed by proxies and anonymous email addresses, etc. some members in good faith will have provided details that make them identifiable. If this information is exposed, their political opinions may become publically known.

    Boards.ie has obligations under the Data Protection legislation to keep this information private. Political opinions under the legislation are viewed as "sensitive personal information". At the moment the penalties for breaching personal privacy vary from non-existent to not big, but they may be increased in future.

    Boards.ie may not sell on or give out personal user details for commercial or other purposes without the permission of users. This personal information belongs to the members and can't just be handed out willy nilly by Boards for commercial reasons and certainly not maliciously.

    Boards.ie also has obligations not to host information that defames people, or incites hatred.

    Where there is "illegal posting" Boards first recourse should be to remove it and if need be to ban the poster. They may report to the Gardai. If someone keeps reregistering and reoffending, after warning, the right approach might be to pass the information on illegal posting to the Gardai.

    Where behaviour is not illegal, I'm not sure that Boards.ie's grounds would be so firm - but this is not a legal opinion, it is only my impression from reading the Data Protection and Digital Rights Ireland websites.

    The area of Boards.ie directly approaching employers, spouses, colleges etc. to complain imo is a grey area with some potential risks attached for Boards.

    I value the political discussion forums, and I recognise that they need to ensure that they protect themselves and others from harm, but there is a need to include in this awareness that posters have a right for their personal details to remain private. Use of that data for purposes other than the purpose given, i.e. registration, is best avoided.

    I wonder has Boards.ie taken legal advice on this issue?

    The Privacy Policy, simply by stating that Boards.ie will do such and such does not override any rights that members have by virtue of the Data Protection legislation, or their right to their reputation.

    There is also an issue of Data Retention. Data is not meant to be held longer than necessary. A person leaving Boards and not wanting their data retained would seem possibly to be within their rights to ask for it to be removed.

    All this can be looked at on the Data Commissioners very helpful website.

    http://www.dataprotection.ie/

    This is "Digital Rights" excellent website. It looks at the ongoing issues of data protection in Ireland, usually from the individual's point of view. As well as Board.ie's policies, users may not be aware of the extent to which governments are taking on power to hold personal information on file.

    http://www.digitalrights.ie/

    Again, none of this is legal opinion, it is my own view based on reading these sites and the main legislation.


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    #226
    Darragh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Darragh


    Posters have a right for their personal details to remain private.

    100% correct.

    I'd like to try explain this very clearly for people - Boards.ie is changing. Like it or not, Boards.ie is now much more an information resource site rather than a "community" one. Our challenge is to retain and promote the community aspects of the site while bringing you the best information that you and other members can provide. Basically, with the site, it should be easy to

    • Read - meaning it's accessible, it's clearly navigable and information is legible
    • Post - the User Interface is easy to use and any questions are covered in the FAQ
    • Register - the registration process gives everything you need to know to get started
    • Search - Looking for information about something? The site should deliver if it's there
    • Discuss - want to have your say on recent topics? There should be a place for serious discussion
    • Talk - want to just kick back and talk about non-serious issues? There should be a place for that
    • Find - Looking for a good gig? A film? A concert in your local area? There should be a place for that
    • Help - looking for help on how to do something, not just boards.ie related? Or like to offer help to someone?
    • Win - companies want to give prizes in return for awareness. Would you like to win one?
    • Share - have you created something you're proud of? Got an idea you want advice on? Taken a great photo you want to show off?
    • Give feedback - got an idea on how to improve the site, its procedures, its structure? Your feedback is welcome.
    and everything else that makes the site great. A lot of it is already there - where it's lacking, we're working on it - but it will take time.

    That's where the TOU come in. We previously did not have (as far as I know) TOU - certainly not in its current form. What we had was the following on registration (I'm not sure how long this text has been in place):
    Forum Rules (read these, they are important - Thanks)

    Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

    Although the administrators and moderators of boards.ie will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of boards.ie, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

    By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

    The owners of boards.ie reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason & and to suspend or ban any user account for any reason.

    Do read the Forum Stickies before you post in each forum, they contain important information, posting guidelines and forum specific rules.

    Please do not register an account on Boards.ie just to promote yourself, your website, your company or your products, this will simply annoy and alienate the users and will most likely result in your posts being removed and your user account being suspend/banned. If you wish to advertise, contact sales@boards.ie.

    Choose a user name you will be happy using over a long period as we only allow name changes to subscribers. We recommend that you do not register with your real name or your email address. Please note that we do not delete user accounts due to the disruption it can cause to conversations nor will we delete posts or threads on request. Please think before you post, your posts will be publically available for a long time, posts will not be removed because you do not like the response or the members.

    Take a moment to read any welcome private message and email, it will help you enjoy your time on boards.ie.

    followed by a PM that said, in part
    Thanks for registering at boards.ie! We are glad you have chosen to be a part of our community and we hope you enjoy your stay.

    Before you post in the forums, do read the forum stickies to familiarise yourself with each forum's etiquette. This can be confusing at first as forums have different rules, taking a few extra moments will make your time on boards more enjoyable.

    Please do not join these forums just to promote yourself, your website, your company or your fabulous products and services, this will simply annoy and alienate the users and will most likely result in your posts being removed and possibly your user account.

    Before you post, please be aware that we do not delete user accounts and name changes are reserved to subscribers only.

    So what we attempted to do with the TOU was add all of the above - some of it very important - to a legal document that showed that we were (a) serious about this project and the future of Boards.ie, and (b) were serious about your protection as much as our own.

    The previous Privacy Policy can be seen here.

    The clause in the new Privacy Statement in full reads as this
    Nuisance posts

    Our first line of defence against nuisance posts is to delete them and to ban the user. Nuisance posts include potentially defamatory material, surreptitious advertising, any other posts which breach the posting guidelines and any form of messages, posts or emails deemed offensive by the administrators or moderators.



    Where a nuisance poster persists, we reserve the right to use email addresses and IP addresses to identify the user and halt the nuisance.



    For example, on a very few occasions, we have reported to organisations that it appeared that one of their employees or other users of their computer equipment was repeatedly making nuisance posts on Boards.ie and asked them to take steps to stop it.


    Similarly, where a user recommends the products or services of their employer, they should state their conflict of interest. Where they do not do so, we reserve the right to point out that the user appears to have a conflict of interest.

    This will only happen when we have exhausted all other avenues of getting this member to stop - we're not talking just trolling here, we're talking about a sustained attack on the site that will cause problems for other members. For example, we have seen threads on other forums trying to organise "attacks" on quieter forums here. We have constant spammers circling the board and - well, the tech guys would be able to advise you more. This is a last step measure, and will only be used when attempts to contact the nuisance poster have failed and they continue to try harm the site despite being warned not to.

    If you have a better suggestion of what we could do here, we'd love to hear it. This is not about getting people fired for posting on Boards.ie - this is about Boards.ie protecting itself from something that could disrupt a lot of our members.

    Our moderators are volunteers. Despite all the threads of "mods not gods" and the like, what people have to remember is that when someone breaks the rules, either of the forum charter or the guidelines, someone has to clean up after them. They have a lot of cleaning up to do on a daily basis so that you can enjoy the site without seeing all the clutter that surrounds it.

    The thing is, if you don't break the rules or try maliciously damage the site, you should have nothing to worry about.
    Boards.ie has obligations under the Data Protection legislation to keep information private.

    This is 100% correct. We work closely with the Data Protection Commissioners who advise us when we have queries. In particular we have a duty about Personal Data, defined as
    "data relating to a living individual who can be identified either from the data or from the data in conjunction with other information in the possession of the data controller;"
    Boards.ie may not sell on or give out personal user details for commercial or other purposes without the permission of users. This personal information belongs to the members and can't just be handed out willy nilly by Boards for commercial reasons and certainly not maliciously.

    Boards.ie also has obligations not to host information that defames people, or incites hatred.

    This is also 100% true - we have legal and defamation guidelines here. Where at all possible, we do not break these.
    Where there is "illegal posting" Boards first recourse should be to remove it and if need be to ban the poster. They may report to the Gardai. If someone keeps reregistering and reoffending, after warning, the right approach might be to pass the information on illegal posting to the Gardai.

    Where behaviour is not illegal, I'm not sure that Boards.ie's grounds would be so firm - but this is not a legal opinion, it is only my impression from reading the Data Protection and Digital Rights Ireland websites.

    On the first paragraph, yes. On the second paragraph - depends on what is meant by "illegal". For example, spamming the site continually with a huge number of duplicate accounts may not be "illegal" but it sure as hell is disruptive and annoying and against our TOU. Using an office internet connection to perpetrate this may not be illegal, but if it stops the attack against us, wouldn't it be fair enough of us to contact the IT dept of the source and let them know what's happening so they can help us stop it?
    The area of Boards.ie directly approaching employers, spouses, colleges etc. to complain imo is a grey area with some potential risks attached for Boards.

    In fairness, we won't be doing this unless we really really have to.
    I wonder has Boards.ie taken legal advice on this issue?

    Yes, yes we have. From a number of sources, including the Data Protection Commissioners Office.
    The Privacy Policy, simply by stating that Boards.ie will do such and such does not override any rights that members have by virtue of the Data Protection legislation, or their right to their reputation.

    Agreed, to a point. That point is where you have irretrievably and unashamedly stepped over the line and you are aware of what the next step we will take is, and you commit the offence anyways.

    Some people like touching electric fences just to see if they'll get a shock.


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    #227
    Darragh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Darragh


    Oh - and don't be worried about "political views" - your politics are your own business, unless you're using our forums to incite racial or religious hatred, to promote an illegal organisation or to commit some other potentially harmful act, your views are your own business and you are welcome to them.

    We will not be going to anyone with "Oh, by the way, the member "Darragh" on our site? He's actually your employee and you might want to know, he's thinking of voting Labour in the next election".

    Firstly, who has the time to do this? Secondly, why would we? Thirdly, who'd care?


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    #228
    CFlower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭CFlower


    Darragh wrote: »
    Oh - and don't be worried about "political views" - your politics are your own business, unless you're using our forums to incite racial or religious hatred, to promote an illegal organisation or to commit some other potentially harmful act, your views are your own business and you are welcome to them.

    We will not be going to anyone with "Oh, by the way, the member "Darragh" on our site? He's actually your employee and you might want to know, he's thinking of voting Labour in the next election".

    Firstly, who has the time to do this? Secondly, why would we? Thirdly, who'd care?

    Very full reply Darragh in your two posts. Thanks for that. The grey areas in my view remain grey and probably will continue to do so. Even case law would only help up to a point. Did the Data Commission provide a definition of the type of posting that in their view would warrant a contact with employers?

    When it comes to knowledge of someone's political views, once "Darragh" has been shopped to his boss, his boss will be in the position to look at his political views.

    By the way, I am my own boss, so you are welcome to complain to me directly at any time you don't like my posting. :) I am generally very amenable.

    I'm a new poster, so I'm not harking back to some "good old days" when it was 3 guys and an apple mac.

    While Boards.ie has its Business Plan, and provides a service of a quality that couldn't be achieved without spending money, its primary product is the posting that people do voluntarily and the voluntary work of the moderators.

    It seems to me that your bullet points relate well to parts of the site where a service is being provided, but in forums that are more chat/community based are not such a 100% good fit.

    In the financial world last year it was learnt that there is no such thing as too big to fail. Imo, Boards.ie needs the affiliation and trust of its posters to be part of its Business Plan. Trust is based on clear and reasonable boundaries.

    Willingness to engage in this kind of discussion of course helps to maintain trust.


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    #229
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Darragh wrote: »
    I'd like to try explain this very clearly for people - Boards.ie is changing. Like it or not, Boards.ie is now much more an information resource site rather than a "community" one.
    +1 It's where this goes that will be interesting. Boards and places like it are a new media being born(and I'm not one of those "teh web will save us all" types). Or could be anyway. Web stats as far as user figures will matter less and viewing figures will matter more IMHO. How many generate content for something like the sunday times? 1000 maybe? Read by millions. It's long been my opinion that while Boards has 200,000 regged users(?), I would say that actual content generating users that make up 90 odd % of content would number a rolling 2000, tops. If not less. Most read content? I'd even go as low a figure as 600. When I've said this in passing to people, some have got twitchy at the notion. I don't see why TBH. It's still a big community and it's a success, just a different kind of success to say a purely community based one.


    * Share - have you created something you're proud of? Got an idea you want advice on? Taken a great photo you want to show off?
    All the other points are great and so is this one, but like others have said and I agree this could well be the dodgy one. Copyright and especially licencing issues. "Ownership" basically. Truthfully and personally speaking? Would I post a photo or other potentially licenceable(?) idea/post on here now, as things stand? TBH I wouldn't. Not that I have any mind. :D Not just Boards either BTW. Doubly so for facebook and the like.

    IMHO the day of the interweb free lunch is not gone, but that day is coming I reckon. It was largely an unsustainable notion anyway. There have been a few shots over the bow already. The aforementioned facebook privacy issues, things like eircom blocking piratebay etc and the maxwell group moving to charge for content. Existing content providers will fight more and more to control "their" content and revenue.

    How might this affect places like boards? I would worry less about users TBH. Most people use facebook et al and dont seem to be concerned about this stuff(foolishly IMHO). I would worry about larger entities getting involved and starting a precedent.

    Say a poster copies and pastes content, copy or image, from a newspaper or other site. This happens all the time. I've done it myself. I would always leave the link which is good manners anyway. Most do. But all it needs is one large corporation to turn around and go "hang on do you have permission to reproduce that content to add to your sites content? We want money now thanks".

    It's possible that in say 5 years time, users here will not be allowed to link to any site that is not "open source" like wikipedia and the like. Actually wikipedia have been clever to avoid this stuff so far. Well as far as I know anyway? Maybe take a leaf from their book re licencing and copyright etc?

    How you police that for both the communities sake and Boards Ltd and how you attempt to limit possible future issues would take better minds than I have to muster. I do see it as an issue that will grow. We've had Web 1.0, we're now apparently in Web 2.0. I reckon Web 3.0 may be a quite different entity. I'm probably wrong and indeed hopefully I am. Just my 2 cents.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #230
    Darragh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Darragh


    The grey areas in my view remain grey and probably will continue to do so.

    Thanks for your reply. At the risk of sounding stupid, can I ask you to clarify, if you haven't already, what the grey areas are and I'll see if I - or our legal advisor - can clarify them for you?
    Did the Data Commission provide a definition of the type of posting that in their view would warrant a contact with employers?

    This wouldn't be up to the DPC - this would be a Boards.ie decision. However, I'll get a list of what that would be for you - give me a few days - but it will be a guidance, not a definitive list. We have to deal with things on a case by case basis. Basically, in my opinion, it would be if someone was using their employers computers to run code against the site to significantly hinder the site performance, or similar. Bear in mind, it would be a last resort.
    its primary product is the posting that people do voluntarily and the voluntary work of the moderators.

    It seems to me that your bullet points relate well to parts of the site where a service is being provided, but in forums that are more chat/community based are not such a 100% good fit.

    Yep, very much with you on the first point - on the second, can you point out where things don't fit, please, and, if possible, suggest an alternative? it's very difficult sometimes to take the helicopter view and see the entire scope. We have almost 1300 public forums now - that's potentially 1300 different communities. I can't see them all :)
    Boards.ie needs the affiliation and trust of its posters to be part of its Business Plan. Trust is based on clear and reasonable boundaries.

    I've been saying that about all online companies - not just Boards.ie - for years :) It's tip top of my agenda.


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    #231
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Darragh wrote: »
    Oh - and don't be worried about "political views" - your politics are your own business, unless you're using our forums to incite racial or religious hatred, to promote an illegal organisation or to commit some other potentially harmful act, your views are your own business and you are welcome to them.

    We will not be going to anyone with "Oh, by the way, the member "Darragh" on our site? He's actually your employee and you might want to know, he's thinking of voting Labour in the next election".

    Firstly, who has the time to do this? Secondly, why would we? Thirdly, who'd care?

    Could you then not write this into the TOU to provide some protection to the user?

    Is it beyond the realms of imagination that an Admin would look up a user's personal information - not because they were a nuisance poster, but simply because they were curious?

    And what if it transpired that that poster was, for example a FF backbench TD who publically supports the government but on boards.ie is highly critical of them? I'm sure for someone such as that, the risk that they could be outed would, even if it is a fairly low risk, prohibit them freely expressing themselves.

    A more everyday example would be the public sector workers who post anonymously on boards.ie that they think the cuts in PS wages are correct. However, if they said this in public it would be game over for their career. Surely it would be beneficial for them to have a level of protection against this.

    I know that what I say on boards.ie is often very guarded because of this issue.


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    #232
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,850 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    Do people ever read T's & C's anyways? Until it proves to be bad I'll be treating it like there is no difference anyways.


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    #233
    coldwood92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭coldwood92


    looks fine to me lads


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    #234
    X Ray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭X Ray


    Darragh wrote: »
    Oh - and don't be worried about "political views" - your politics are your own business, unless you're using our forums to incite racial or religious hatred, to promote an illegal organisation or to commit some other potentially harmful act, your views are your own business and you are welcome to them.

    We will not be going to anyone with "Oh, by the way, the member "Darragh" on our site? He's actually your employee and you might want to know, he's thinking of voting Labour in the next election".

    Firstly, who has the time to do this? Secondly, why would we? Thirdly, who'd care?

    An amazingly basic thing to have to say, yet it has to be said and thank you for doing so.


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    #235
    Pacing Mule
    Registered Users Posts: 5,057 ✭✭✭Pacing Mule


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Could you then not write this into the TOU to provide some protection to the user?

    Is it beyond the realms of imagination that an Admin would look up a user's personal information - not because they were a nuisance poster, but simply because they were curious?

    And what if it transpired that that poster was, for example a FF backbench TD who publically supports the government but on boards.ie is highly critical of them? I'm sure for someone such as that, the risk that they could be outed would, even if it is a fairly low risk, prohibit them freely expressing themselves.

    A more everyday example would be the public sector workers who post anonymously on boards.ie that they think the cuts in PS wages are correct. However, if they said this in public it would be game over for their career. Surely it would be beneficial for them to have a level of protection against this.

    I know that what I say on boards.ie is often very guarded because of this issue.

    Your post and examples are not as relevant to what the internet has become. The internet is no longer a mystical place where people can become a completely different person detached from their everyday being with no chance of this personallity being linked to their offline real person. The reality is that although the net provides a certain amount of anomynity this is shrinking rapidly.

    If you post something here or anywhere on the net you should be prepared to have that post / thought / image etc be linked back to your real offline life. If you're a backbench FF TD who is highly critical of the governement then morally you should come out and publically say so. Posting it here or anywhere online needs to be seen as no different to saying it to a group of people in your own home, one of whom may run off to the papers.

    The internet is evolving and is no longer a safe harbour to annonymously post views you don't have the balls to do in real life. Likewise service providers, be it Eircom or Boards.ie Ltd are facing increasingly difficult situations and legal issues that can no longer be dealt with by saying "It's not our fault, it was one of our users and we don't really know who they are anyway"

    Boards.ie are laying some foundations to protect the site as a whole. You may not like the changes but these are IMO internet culture changes rather than the lads here deciding to change things round themselves. It's important for people to realise this.


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    #236
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    Could similar wording as below be used in your new terms and conditions ?
    I have copied these 2 paragraphs from the T& C of Yahoo.com in relation to Flickr.
    Thank you and I hope this may help.
    John

    (b) With respect to Content you elect to post for inclusion in publicly accessible areas of Yahoo! Groups or that consists of photos or other graphics you elect to post to any other publicly accessible area of the Services, you grant Yahoo! a world-wide, royalty free and non-exclusive licence to reproduce, modify, adapt and publish such Content on the Services solely for the purpose of displaying, distributing and promoting the specific Yahoo! Group to which such Content was submitted, or, in the case of photos or graphics, solely for the purpose for which such photo or graphic was submitted to the Services. This licence exists only for as long as you elect to continue to include such Content on the Services and shall be terminated at the time you delete such Content from the Services.

    (c) With respect to all other Content you elect to post to other publicly accessible areas of the Services, you grant Yahoo! the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully sub-licensable right and licence to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such Content (in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed.


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    #237
    Masada
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Masada


    Hi,

    My apologies if this has already been mentioned but theres a lot of noise on other subjects in the thread,

    ---If I post an image on boards right now, am i then giving boards the right of ownership of that photo?

    ---Does this only apply to photo's that are uploaded/attached to boards.ie or will this also include those that are posted by way of links and image tags? (ie, hosted on flickr, pix.ie etc etc and linked to boards)

    ---If the answer to Q1 is Yes, Are there any plans to adjust these TOU in order to leave the rights of photographs posted with the photographer without any claim to ownership from boards.ie?



    There's a thread over in the photography forum ( http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055786340 ) about these new T&Cs and as im sure you'll understand, Boards.ie taking ownership of any photo's posted there is seriously bad for a photography forum. A lot of posters do not want to post images on the site until the issue of ownership is cleared up, assuring them their images will remain their own property after posting.,


    Thanks in advance.,:)

    EDIT: I've just noticed Darragh posted a reply over in the photography forum about this where it appears the best interests of the photographers are at heart. It'll be interesting to see how this fans out.., cheers.,:)


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    #238
    Darragh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Darragh


    pixbyjohn and masada, thanks for your input. Very helpful and as per this thread and the photography forum ones, the TOU will be amended as soon as we can to clarify this issue :)


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    #239
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    Could similar wording as below be used in your new terms and conditions ?
    I have copied these 2 paragraphs from the T& C of Yahoo.com in relation to Flickr.
    Thank you and I hope this may help.
    John

    (b) With respect to Content you elect to post for inclusion in publicly accessible areas of Yahoo! Groups or that consists of photos or other graphics you elect to post to any other publicly accessible area of the Services, you grant Yahoo! a world-wide, royalty free and non-exclusive licence to reproduce, modify, adapt and publish such Content on the Services solely for the purpose of displaying, distributing and promoting the specific Yahoo! Group to which such Content was submitted, or, in the case of photos or graphics, solely for the purpose for which such photo or graphic was submitted to the Services. This licence exists only for as long as you elect to continue to include such Content on the Services and shall be terminated at the time you delete such Content from the Services.

    (c) With respect to all other Content you elect to post to other publicly accessible areas of the Services, you grant Yahoo! the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully sub-licensable right and licence to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such Content (in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed.
    Whatever about the first one, you would have to be a lot more cautious about the second one. Indeed those T&C of flickr are a bit dodgy from what I can see. Much more so than Boards.ie T&C.

    OK any site like Boards has to have the ability to control the display of the content. For simple housekeeping if nothing else. My worry is that sooner or later there will be a reaction to anything more than that. A test case if you will. The creative writing forum types would have to be daft to allow anything approaching the second example up there. People can see why the photography folks would have an issue, but as posted content of any kind becomes more and more important on sites like Boards as news, advice, etc, the posts themselves have value.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #240
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Plus Boards is different in one way that above Flickr T & C. Paragraph (b) is bang on, but differs in one major way to Boards. You can't remove your content here with as much freedom.

    As a very understandable policy to keep the flow of threads etc you cant choose to remove your account from Boards. In some circumstances posts and threads do get deleted. PI as an example. If a poster PM's the mods and asks to remove their thread because it may be hurtful to them personally if it stays public, they will get deleted. And rightly so IMHO.

    So as an example, a creative writing type or photography type wants to remove their entire content? I cant see that happening.

    Plus if that paragraph (b) is added to the Boards T&C's then users who want their accounts deleted have far more of a leg to stand on, as otherwise it holds no water. Look at what facebook had to do when there were major complaints that users couldnt delete accounts. They now have the delete account button.

    This stuff is a bloody minefield it has to be said. For both sides. Hopefully a middle ground can be found that protects places like these as well as those who use them.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #241
    Covey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭Covey


    Wibbs wrote: »

    So as an example, a creative writing type or photography type wants to remove their entire content? I cant see that happening.

    Why not?

    I'm a photographer and as far as I'm aware I didn't sign up to posting photos without the abilty to delete them at any time prior to 23/12/2009. I haven't posted photos since and won't under those TOU's.

    I'd like some clarity on the position prior to 23/12/2009 please?


This discussion has been closed.
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