Removing religious influence from schools not in my remit, says Minister

Seloth · 22-12-2009 07:26PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Just about any nonsense can be deeemed part of ones culture if it goes on for long enough :rolleyes:

I suppose ignorance can as well:p

philologos · 22-12-2009 07:29PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Just about any nonsense can be deeemed part of ones culture if it goes on for long enough :rolleyes:

Why should your view that teaching about Christianity is nonsense gain precedence over others who feel differently to you?

Mr.Obvious · 22-12-2009 07:55PM

Seloth wrote: »

I'd like to point out that someone earlier on said about how not all of them were like this.,To say that is generalisation,DOnt get me wrong the covers and such are f**king horrible but to say evey priest was like that is like saying everyone from the Middleast wants to blow up the westenr civilization.

They don't

.

rohatch · 22-12-2009 10:02PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Completely in favour of an all out ban on religious education.

Indoctrinating children in religions is wrong imho.

Totally agree.

No religion until you are 21.

Jakkass wrote: »

Incredibly easy for an atheist to say.

I hope that people like you never grace the Dáil.

We hope that ALL people like you are removed from power in this poxy, small, backward, gombeenist, nepotistic dump that Ireland is.

Jakkass wrote: »

Why should your view that teaching about Christianity is nonsense gain precedence over others who feel differently to you?

Because christianity is UTTER NONSENSE.

If you want to teach kids about the world and us, and our universe then use science.

philologos · 22-12-2009 10:14PM

rohatch wrote: »

Because christianity is UTTER NONSENSE.

If you want to teach kids about the world and us, and our universe then use science.

Repeating it isn't going to make your point any more valid :pac:

dan719 · 22-12-2009 10:25PM

rohatch wrote: »

this poxy, small, backward, gombeenist, nepotistic dump that Ireland is.

Don't like it. Then **** right off.

Just out of interest, who here has actually been to a religion class in the last decade? I spent more time learning about Islam than Christianity, all the major religions were studied in depth, and then we had mass once a week. The mass was optional, and in sixth year people were encouraged to use some of them for study.

As a result of funding for the school from the Augustinians as well as the government, we had a gym, sports halls, eight playing pitches....as well as three science labs, two computer rooms, three td rooms and so on. The secular 'tech' across the road was an absolute ****hole.

I greatly benefited from my Augustinian education, and would happily send any family members to it.

But don't let that stop the 'rabble rabble rabble priests are paedophiles brigade'.

Ickle Magoo · 22-12-2009 10:31PM

dan719 wrote: »

But don't let that stop the 'rabble rabble rabble priests are paedophiles brigade'.

Actually, I'm part of the "my kid can't get accepted to the local school without a baptismal cert" rabble and I'm a more recent member of the "Bloody hell, I can't believe the RCC was implicit in child abuse and still can't get it's head around why some people are not their greatest fans" brigade.

G_R · 22-12-2009 10:51PM

dan719 wrote: »

Don't like it. Then **** right off.

Just out of interest, who here has actually been to a religion class in the last decade?

i have. we didn't sit the exam, but we had to do 3 classes of it a week anyway. In fact, my school replaced our Careers class with an extra "Religion + Ethics" class in 6th year, despite EVERY SINGLE member of 6th year signing a petition and giving it to the Principal, V Principal (who was really in charge), Religion Teacher and Board Of Management. Not one bit of notice was taken.

The Religion + Ethics class consisted of "abortion is bad", "contraception is bad", "sex is bad". Not once was any mention of any religion other than Christianity. We had so much utter shite shoved down our necks that i left the class hating the Catholic Church and all it stands for.

So you will forgive me for not liking it, however i have no intention of fucking right off. I am Irish, and want the country improved, I'm not gonna leave the second there is something i don't like.

Biggins · 22-12-2009 10:52PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Actually, I'm part of the "my kid can't get accepted to the local school without a baptismal cert" rabble and I'm a more recent member of the "Bloody hell, I can't believe the RCC was implicit in child abuse and still can't get it's head around why some people are not their greatest fans" brigade.

Parent of 4 here. Welcome to the club friend.
My children are attending an "Educate Together" school.

Ickle Magoo · 22-12-2009 10:58PM

Biggins wrote: »

Parent of 4 here. Welcome to the club friend.
My children are attending an "Educate Together" school.

Thanks, I'm liking the club so far!

I have one at ET, one to go next year. The trouble is if we have to move, which is looking more & more likely, it's extremely unlikely they would get a place in another ET. Their names went down at birth and they were in the mid-teens on the list. :eek:

Nodin · 23-12-2009 12:20AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Actually, I'm part of the "my kid can't get accepted to the local school without a baptismal cert" rabble and I'm a more recent member of the "Bloody hell, I can't believe the RCC was implicit in child abuse and still can't get it's head around why some people are not their greatest fans" brigade.

Thats allegedly our culture you're slagging off there.

Do you want to live in some hell hole where theres no problem with the lack of a baptismal cert and some sort of liberal answerable responsive church, or a government prepared to stand up to an authoratarian one? Well you can take yourself, your hopes for a more equitable society and piss off, sonny jim.

Jesus, next ye'll want Drumm, Fitzpartick and Fingleton in the dock.....

Odats · 23-12-2009 12:56AM

The reality is that the majority of primary and secondary schools in this country have a Catholic ethos and handing over the governing of all these schools to our incompetent government could do more harm than good.

A previous poster asked how they accumulated all this school land. Well the orders back in the day were giving the government a pretty cheap teacher payroll cost and were paid off in land.

If I was to have children I would send them to a single sex Catholic school over a multi demoniational co ed school any day and if went to the stage of I having to pay for the pleasure so be it. ( I just appreciate you get a solid grounding, good academics and solid learning environent with no PC bllcks).

If the government take over the schools it will get to the stage where we will have to pay for the pleasure to send our child to a decent school.

I know all the sex scandels were inexcusable but not every priest,nun,brother was involved and handing over every school isn't going to take the pain the victims suffered back is it.
If we were to blame everybody we would tell our children not to talk to Garda because some Garda Commissioner years ago covered up sex abuse and etc etc.

The Vatican could set about giving funding to schol refurbishment, new school buildings etc as a means of investing in the future generations.

G_R · 23-12-2009 01:01AM

Odats wrote: »

... ( I just appreciate you get a solid grounding, good academics and solid learning environent with no PC bllcks).

If the government take over the schools it will get to the stage where we will have to pay for the pleasure to send our child to a decent school....

What makes you say that? People get the same education in a secular school. only without the religious B/S

Odats · 23-12-2009 01:13AM

dannym08 wrote: »

What makes you say that? People get the same education in a secular school. only without the religious B/S

What I mean is from a PC aspect trying to accomodate different faiths, cultures etc. If it is your choice to send them to a faith school you are removing this aspect every one is on the same hym sheet so to speak.

moonflower · 23-12-2009 02:29AM

There should definitely be more non-religious schools available. I went to a catholic school and although we never sat an exam in religion, we were still forced to sit through 3 hours of it a week.

Even in 6th year we still had to do it, despite my protests that I didn't believe and would rather take a study class. The foreign girls got to take a study class because the school didn't want to offend them (even the ones who were christians got to take the study class) but if you were born in Ireland you were to sit in a class to learn about jesus. It annoyed me so much! Especially added to the fact that only a few girls in our year got to do PE because we spent so much of our free time in religion classes.

Ickle Magoo · 23-12-2009 09:13AM

Odats wrote: »

If the government take over the schools it will get to the stage where we will have to pay for the pleasure to send our child to a decent school.

One of them decent discriminatory, can refuse entry to pupils that don't fit your pleasurable remit, kinda schools? Lovely.

I don't mind there being faith schools, if people want the luxury of choosing schools that can pick and choose their pupils based on faith or gender then they should have to pay for said school. The average, readily accessible, state funded school should take every faith, race and gender - in keeping with the tax payers.

Tha Gopher · 23-12-2009 10:06AM

Fashionable, paranoia driven church bashing is hilarious

And I say this as someone who has not been to mass in 6 years, holds no opinion either way on the existance of god but calls myself Catholic because culturally that is what I am. As are most of you, live with it.

Sleepy · 23-12-2009 10:27AM

Jakkass wrote: »

Incredibly easy for an atheist to say.

There is a difference between drilling something into someones mind, and telling them the values you hold, and why you hold them.

Even non-believers do this.

I hope that people like you never grace the Dáil.

Why? Because your religion would lose it's position of power in this country?

I teach my children values, I expect them to be educated in school, not indoctrinated. If you wish your children to receive religious instruction, that's fine once it's done at your expense.

Any state support of a religious school is using taxpayers money to help instill the values of that religion into children. I object to my taxes being spent in such a fashion as I would expect you to object if schools were to teach that religious belief is inherantly illogical and stupid using your taxes.

Private religious schools which weren't receiving public funding would end up so far outside of state control and result in such segregation of the children attending them that I would also be against this.

If my daughter decides that she wants to be a Catholic, a Protest, a Muslim, a Wiccan or to worship the flying spaghetti monster that's fine with me. Once it's an adult decision to do so.

Sleepy · 23-12-2009 10:32AM

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Fashionable, paranoia driven church bashing is hilarious And I say this as someone who has not been to mass in 6 years, holds no opinion either way on the existance of god but calls myself Catholic because culturally that is what I am. As are most of you, live with it.

Unfortunately for you, that's not the way the Catholic Church sees things. To be a catholic, one must adhere to all teachings of that religion. It's the very reason that the reformation occured and why protestant churches exist.

Unless you belive in transubstantiation, the virgin birth, the existance of the 3-in-1 god, that the pope is god's voice on earth and that only the clergy has the insight into the bible to interpret it's teachings correctly, I'm afraid you're not a catholic.

But, then again, would you care about reality and logical reasoning if you're religious? Probably not.

Seth Brundle · 23-12-2009 10:54AM

Sleepy wrote: »

that the pope is god's voice on earth

because God told the Herr Ratzinger to write the letter, Crimen Sollicitationis and managed to get him diplomatic immunity for the abuse trial in Texas, etc.!

He is guardian to the Catholic Church, an organisation that lost its way a long time ago. There are still a lot of excellent members within this organisation but I don't believe that he is one! Now don't get me wrong, I think that despite all the populace associated with his predecessor, Pope John Paul II was as bad. He promoted the likes of Desmond Connell, a man who may well have been holy but through his actions not someone who represents the Christ that I learnt about!

Somehow, I think Papal Infallibility no longer exists and that God's call to the people got disconnected!

Mike 1972 · 23-12-2009 11:03AM

kbannon wrote: »

Somehow, I think Papal Infallibility no longer exists

No longer ???????

Seth Brundle · 23-12-2009 11:12AM

ok - never existed!

dvpower · 23-12-2009 11:24AM

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Fashionable, paranoia driven church bashing is hilarious And I say this as someone who has not been to mass in 6 years, holds no opinion either way on the existance of god but calls myself Catholic because culturally that is what I am. As are most of you, live with it.

A catholic that doesn't have an opinion on the existence of God?
Is that a new sect? I might join up.:rolleyes:

Ickle Magoo · 23-12-2009 11:28AM

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Fashionable, paranoia driven church bashing is hilarious ...

Eh, my concerns about some in the RCC having access to children is driven by something a little bit more substantial than paranoia. What I don't find hilarious is the complete apathy or drive for greater apathy towards what has happened here and that state funded schools are allowed to discriminate on the basis of faith.

Mike 1972 · 23-12-2009 11:45AM

dvpower wrote: »

A catholic that doesn't have an opinion on the existence of God?
Is that a new sect? I might join up.:rolleyes:

I remember hearing about some Church of England (vicar/bishop ?) who reckoned there was no God.

And then they accuse atheists who dont work on Christmas day of hypocricy :rolleyes:

Pushtrak · 23-12-2009 11:52AM

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Fashionable, paranoia driven church bashing is hilarious And I say this as someone who has not been to mass in 6 years, holds no opinion either way on the existance of god but calls myself Catholic because culturally that is what I am. As are most of you, live with it.

Culturally Catholic? WTF is that?

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And then they accuse atheists who dont work on Christmas day of hypocricy :rolleyes:

Not to mention the nagging for eating meat on Good Friday.

"But I don't believe in God".
"Yeah, but you still should do it."
"Why?"
"Because it is the right thing to do."
"I really don't see how."

(Oh, are they examples of this cultural catholic I hear so much about?)

ArthurDent · 23-12-2009 12:16PM

Odats wrote: »

What I mean is from a PC aspect trying to accomodate different faiths, cultures etc. .

yeah it's all that over the top pc-ness :rolleyes: absolultely nothing to do with cherishing all our children equally - giving them all equal access to STATE FUNDED education.

Odats wrote: »

If it is your choice to send them to a faith school you are removing this aspect every one is on the same hym sheet so to speak.

what is this choice you speak of? less than 60 out of over 3000 schools that cannot discriminate on the basis of religion. Great choice there...

KindOfIrish · 23-12-2009 12:18PM

I had always thought that religious schools belong to the 19th century before I came to Ireland!!! We live in the shaman country

) My children will never go to school in this country.

Podman · 23-12-2009 12:19PM

Should we protest by studying in Church?

Tha Gopher · 24-12-2009 08:46AM

Unfortunately for you, that's not the way the Catholic Church sees things. To be a catholic, one must adhere to all teachings of that religion. It's the very reason that the reformation occured and why protestant churches exist.

Unless you belive in transubstantiation, the virgin birth, the existance of the 3-in-1 god, that the pope is god's voice on earth and that only the clergy has the insight into the bible to interpret it's teachings correctly, I'm afraid you're not a catholic.

But, then again, would you care about reality and logical reasoning if you're religious? Probably not.

I have this funny feeling that when I have a kid the priest will not bring up all this when I ask for it to be christened. Im fairly sure my unmarried cousin and her fella, and dozens of others I know, never had this problem.

Culturally Catholic? WTF is that?

Oh I dont know. Maybe something like that lad in Belfast post ceasefire who got gunned down for being Catholic as he was wearing a Celtic jersey as the hunt squad rolled through his area? Embarrasing opinion in the context of our history.

Religious or not you are an Irish Catholic by ethnicity. Having known a few hard drinking Bosnian Muslims, who arent a particularly religious lot like ourselves but are Muslim by culture, Im sure some of the Srebenica Muslims hadnt been to a mosque in years, but they were slaughtered based on religious ethnicity.

Removing religious influence from schools not in my remit, says Minister

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