Removing religious influence from schools not in my remit, says Minister

Nevyn · 20-12-2009 03:37PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Interesting but can you be a bit more specific ? What information was requested on these forms, why did parents feel compelled to supply it and were they made fully aware of where it was going and what purpose it was to be used for ?

The forms were for the archdioceses of Dublin to create confirmation register of children as many do make communion but do not go on to make confirmation and rather then distribute them out in church the priest let himself into the school, went down to the class room and insisted they handed out to all the children even those who are not christian and stated the forms were to be filled in and stood over the teacher so she wrote a note on the forms of children who would not be making confirmation asking for the forms to be filled in.

The information was name, date of birth, address, phone number, parent's names mother's maiden name date of baptims where the child was baptised.

The church has no right to that info on children who are not members of the church, the school can not give the church the information under it's data protetion measures and the church wanted to start it's own records which are due to the nature of the church exempt to certain parts of the data protection act.

Mike 1972 · 20-12-2009 04:07PM

Thanks for that although Im wondering about this bit

Thaedydal wrote: »

so she (the teacher) wrote a note on the forms of children who would not be making confirmation asking for the forms to be filled in.

Why did the teacher do this and by doing so did she not make a data peotection issue for the school by doing so ?

Nevyn · 20-12-2009 04:18PM

The parish priest wanted it done, stood beside her and was not happy to leave until every child had a form to bring home. Apprenlty she tought she was being helpful when she wrote in re ink "Even tough (name of my son) is not being confirmed the church is requesting details for all children so if you wouldn’t mind filling in the relevant info."

Needless to say I did mind and called the school and lodged a complaint with the school prinicple.

spurious · 20-12-2009 04:22PM

There is at least one primary school under the patronage of a VEC. I believe County Dublin VEC run one.

The C.A.B. should take the schools from the Church organisations.

G_R · 20-12-2009 04:29PM

Thaedydal wrote: »

Firstly the VEC can only take on the patron ship of secondary schools, there are no primary school VEC, the rules for the incorporation of the VEC do not allow it.

The VEC and educate together are completely desperately bodies, educate together is a charity which was set up to be a patron to primary schools in the 70s and to date has 56 school nationwide.

sorry i was under the impression that they were one of the same. thanks for clearing that up

Jakkass wrote: »

Why on earth should they be run by Educate Together? If the State is going to take the schools, the State should run them.

again see above, i was under the impression that ET was a government organisation.

sorry

my original point still stands tho

Seloth · 20-12-2009 05:28PM

I dont see why this is such a big deal.
If it werent for the church education in most parts of the world would not have sprug up,Its thanks to the Church that Schools,Chruches Orphanages were built in most places.

There are two secondary schools in my local town,One of which was founded by Monks and Nuns,their orders also paid for the school to be renovated almost 100 years later as well as to moderndise it.

In primary school the parish priest helped set up sports teams and talk about morality,but not in a religiouse ways but teaching basic right and wrongs such as stealing,bullying etc.

Most people in Ireland are open theists,Not belive in the bible as hard evidence but thinking their may be some higher power etc like most European countrys.So the obviously the influce of the church is not as strong as you make it too be.

Wertz · 20-12-2009 05:39PM

This is the same clown under whose remit the dept of education has only managed to spend less than a quarter of it's structural funding for new school building in the middle of the biggest crisis to face the construction sector, ever.
One has to ask what in fact it is Mr O'Keefe actually does to earn his salary, barring coming out with statements about what it is he can't do in his appointed role...

spurious · 20-12-2009 05:43PM

Seloth wrote: »

There are two secondary schools in my local town,One of which was founded by Monks and Nuns,their orders also paid for the school to be renovated almost 100 years later as well as to moderndise it.

Their orders don't pay for them now.
The utter waste of two, sometimes three schools in a small town all being funded by the DES is one of the glaring wastes of money An Bord Snip failed to see.
Build one properly equipped school, offering all subjects at all levels, taking ALL children who apply. Level the playing field.

rohatch · 21-12-2009 09:18PM

Seloth wrote: »

I dont see why this is such a big deal.
If it werent for the church education in most parts of the world would not have sprug up,Its thanks to the Church that Schools,Chruches Orphanages were built in most places.

Yeah, we will just forget about the rapes, murders, the brainwashing and all the other devious ways these pernicious bastards used to control us while becoming the richest organisation on the planet.

Seloth · 21-12-2009 10:11PM

I'd like to point out that someone earlier on said about how not all of them were like this.,To say that is generalisation,DOnt get me wrong the covers and such are f**king horrible but to say evey priest was like that is like saying everyone from the Middleast wants to blow up the westenr civilization.

Ickle Magoo · 21-12-2009 10:42PM

That's hardly the point. If there were 2 teachers that systematically abused children, several other teachers and the education authorities were complicit, out of a school with a staff of over 100 - would you send your child there? Or would you want such people as far away from children and the establishments children must legally attend as you could get? I think we can all understand an establishment having the odd bag egg, but endemic abuse which is then covered up all the way up the ladder of hierarchy is truly sickening.

As horrific a read as it is, the Murphy Report report is not even the whole story. It considered how the Catholic Church handled allegations of sexual abuse against a sample of 46 priests between 1 January 1975 and 30 April 2004 in the Dublin Archdiocese only - can you imagine the statistics if you include all priests in every archdiocese for the last 100 years? :eek::(

Jumpy · 21-12-2009 10:44PM

Cool_CM wrote: »

Yaaaaaaar!!!!!!!!!

HAI. *bows*

ScissorPaperRock · 21-12-2009 10:50PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Some reasonably good points but.......

Will they ?

Time for another poll ?

I really would be interested in such a poll. See who would have gone to mass on Christmas day before all of this, who goes to keep the family happy, who goes every Sunday out of choice, who does it to keep others happy, or to prevent a negative opinion of themselves/their family in the community, or for tradition's sake.

What say you?

Edit: sorry for going a little off topic here. Mods feel free to delete if necessary.

Ickle Magoo · 21-12-2009 11:00PM

I'm not Catholic so I wouldn't go to mass anyway but I have heard numerous discussions between friends and family members questioning the same thing. The general consensus seemed to be no, some seem to be starting to favour agnosticism.

My mother-in-law was quite devout but says she cannot bear the thought of paying collection money to an establishment that is still paying priests that have abused a pension or living. I can see where she is coming from.

Seth Brundle · 21-12-2009 11:13PM

mukki wrote: »

i know people can walk in and out as they please (parents and repairmen, salesmen,etc) but at least they can go off and have sex with a consenting adult as they wish

You seem happy for non-priests to wander into a school on the assumption that they wouldn't rape a kid yet make this assumption about any priest?

Biggins wrote: »

If the minister for education can't control over what governs his schools - WHAT THE FCUK IS HE DOING IN HIS OVER PAID POSITION???
If he is such an incompetent fool not able to control his own department - why the fcuk is the state still paying to have his sorry ass in the top seat?

The same could be said about most of the cabinet. However, they are there because they were elected willingly by the idiot public!

Hank_Jones · 22-12-2009 02:16AM

I personally don't like the religious influence that there is in schools. You're basically forced to partake in ''Religion'' classes even though you have no interest in it...

Then you're forced to listen to priests ramble on about god and religion at any sort of event that the school has.

My main worries would be regarding the church trying to influence young minds regarding religion. But to be honest with the track record of priests in the country I'm not sure they should be allowed to be around younger people...

Teferi · 22-12-2009 02:38AM

I went to a private school run by a Catholic order.

We weren't absolutely forced into taking part in an religious services if we really didn't want to.

In later years, they try bring balance to 'Religion' classes, studying other beliefs and faiths. Everything from Judaism to the various forms of Neo-Paganism.

*shock horror* They didn't cause a fuss when gay lads brought male dates to the debs etc.

I wasn't raped, buggered or coerced into doing anything I didn't want to (I'm aware at the possible innuendo in this sentence). They didn't attempt to influence my young and fragile mind into anything not culturally acceptable (This, of course, means we were thought various Catholic values etc. Ireland, believe it or not would still be considered a Catholic country so nothing out of norm here).

I still count a number of the brothers as confidantes and see them regularly enough.

If I was to have kids in later years, I will happily send them to this school and would be most happy to have priests interact with them.

Not all priests are rapists or idiots. Only the ones reported in the media.

Although people will poo-poo this comment because I have made the extra sin of coming from a private school.

(and it feels important to say it - I'm agnostic by the by)

Ickle Magoo · 22-12-2009 10:39AM

Teferi wrote: »

I went to a private school run by a Catholic order.

We weren't absolutely forced into taking part in an religious services if we really didn't want to.

Which completely misses the point re schools supposedly for the general public having religious influence, especially over pupil selection. Of course not "all" priests are anything and if parents wish to run that particular gauntlet then they should be free to do so in any number of privately run establishments - I object that as yet I have little or no choice NOT to run that risk.

I'm not sure if you realise just how perverse the argument that it's perfectly reasonable that religious bodies have free access to children because they can't all can be rapists and you weren't buggered, is?

aDeener · 22-12-2009 01:18PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Maybe he wanted to study home economics or even accounting and found he couldnt

A lot of Girls wanting to do Physics, Metalwork etc experience similar difficulties.

ehh accounting isnt generally taught just to females? where did you get that from?

aDeener · 22-12-2009 01:24PM

Teferi wrote: »

I went to a private school run by a Catholic order.

We weren't absolutely forced into taking part in an religious services if we really didn't want to.

In later years, they try bring balance to 'Religion' classes, studying other beliefs and faiths. Everything from Judaism to the various forms of Neo-Paganism.

*shock horror* They didn't cause a fuss when gay lads brought male dates to the debs etc.

I wasn't raped, buggered or coerced into doing anything I didn't want to (I'm aware at the possible innuendo in this sentence). They didn't attempt to influence my young and fragile mind into anything not culturally acceptable (This, of course, means we were thought various Catholic values etc. Ireland, believe it or not would still be considered a Catholic country so nothing out of norm here).

I still count a number of the brothers as confidantes and see them regularly enough.

If I was to have kids in later years, I will happily send them to this school and would be most happy to have priests interact with them.

Not all priests are rapists or idiots. Only the ones reported in the media.

Although people will poo-poo this comment because I have made the extra sin of coming from a private school.

(and it feels important to say it - I'm agnostic by the by)

bloody hell you would be complaining if they did :rolleyes:

RedPlanet · 22-12-2009 01:28PM

Are there any organisations or campaigns here for secular education?
If so can someone divy up some links?
If it is not the ministers remit to pursue secular education then how do we MAKE IT his remit?

Cookie_Monster · 22-12-2009 01:39PM

We should just invade the Vatican and seize all their assets.

They're probably the only country in the world not capable of defending against the Irish armed forces.

Solves the problem of where the bailout money for the banks etc will come from

Nevyn · 22-12-2009 02:23PM

RedPlanet wrote: »

Are there any organisations or campaigns here for secular education?
If so can someone divy up some links?
If it is not the ministers remit to pursue secular education then how do we MAKE IT his remit?

http://www.educatetogether.ie/

philologos · 22-12-2009 02:24PM

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I personally don't like the religious influence that there is in schools. You're basically forced to partake in ''Religion'' classes even though you have no interest in it...

I can somewhat sympathise with this. I do not think the solution is getting rid of all faith schools. People need to recognise that there are people who do not believe in God in Irish society and that secular schools need to be provided as alternatives.

In return, people in Irish society must recognise that religion is normal, people of faith are normal, and that it isn't unreasonable for there to be faith schools for parents to encourage children in their value system.

Hank_Jones wrote: »

Then you're forced to listen to priests ramble on about god and religion at any sort of event that the school has.

If your parents wish for you to learn about God, that is what they have chosen obviously out of a care for your well being. If your parents do not wish for you to learn about God, they should find a secular school or ask to opt you out of such events.

Hank_Jones wrote: »

My main worries would be regarding the church trying to influence young minds regarding religion. But to be honest with the track record of priests in the country I'm not sure they should be allowed to be around younger people...

In my view, in faith schools people in leadership should be offering at least food for thought for their students to think about the value system they claim to stand for. In a Christian context this means an introduction to the Gospels, and to other Biblical narratives, Lent, prayer, and to Biblical morality. In an Islamic context, an introduction to the Qur'an, the Sunnah, the 5 pillars, Ramadhan, daily prayers and so on.

The State needs to do more to deal with those who do not believe in God honestly. Honestly while at the same time not making religion look strange, or marginalising people who believe. This is the criticism that has been lodged against the Labour Government by both the Tories and the Church of England recently.

Teferi · 22-12-2009 02:50PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm not sure if you realise just how perverse the argument that it's perfectly reasonable that religious bodies have free access to children because they can't all can be rapists and you weren't buggered, is?

You put words into my mouth there. Not what I said at all.

aDeener wrote: »

bloody hell you would be complaining if they did :rolleyes:

Sorry, what?

Sleepy · 22-12-2009 03:02PM

Completely in favour of an all out ban on religious education.

Indoctrinating children in religions is wrong imho.

philologos · 22-12-2009 03:11PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Completely in favour of an all out ban on religious education.

Indoctrinating children in religions is wrong imho.

Incredibly easy for an atheist to say.

There is a difference between drilling something into someones mind, and telling them the values you hold, and why you hold them.

Even non-believers do this.

I hope that people like you never grace the Dáil.

Seloth · 22-12-2009 03:39PM

In my primary school there were tow children raised atheist and thye weren tforced to participate in anything.

The Parents asked if they could sit out of what eer religion class etc migh tbe held and the school was happy to compliy,tey would usually do colouringor some education thing on the computer.And offten when we were singing the girl joined in as she liked singing.

Tbh allot of the storys your told in religion class are like Aesop's Fables,Being advice on life and stuff,I can remember our Teacher and the parish priest talking too us about how taking things too seriouse can be bad,even religion((And they pointe dout how on certain days people could only walk so many feet etc)).

By anything the religiouse part of our education system is part of our culture,and many of you who protest this claim that kids are force dnito it,not knowing what thy are doing in the most part being mindless drones,but ye seem to be doing ok despite that fact you also went through this,Im more agnostic than Theist and I just remember religion class as colouring and trips

Hank_Jones · 22-12-2009 06:21PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Completely in favour of an all out ban on religious education.

Indoctrinating children in religions is wrong imho.

I completely agree with this, just don't think it should have a place within education.

I'm all for people having beliefs, I just feel that religion should be left to churches etc or within groups that are interested in it.

How does taking classes in religion provide you with a better education?

I would think that the extra time could be used to give children more PE classes, it's not as if kids these days don't need the exercise...

Mike 1972 · 22-12-2009 07:22PM

Seloth wrote: »

By (?) anything the religiouse (?) part of our education system is part of our culture,

Just about any nonsense can be deeemed part of ones culture if it goes on for long enough :rolleyes:

Removing religious influence from schools not in my remit, says Minister

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