Removing religious influence from schools not in my remit, says Minister

rohatch

EDUCATION: MINISTER FOR Education Batt O’Keeffe has said it was not within his remit to decide if religious organisations should be distanced from schools, following the revelations within the Murphy report.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1219/1224260976585.htmlr



How is this possible, how do we get rid of these lying, preaching, deluded fools.

It is the perfect time to remove the church. They never should have been allowed to get into such a position but this is Ireland.

We need someone to stand up and point out that their basis for existing is a delusion to begin with, and then seize all their assets. They can work for free or handouts as I am sure their LORD would have wanted them too.

They own over 650,000 buildings and institutions and have billions of Euro worth of art and treasure hidden in their vaults with nominal valuations of €1 on most of them.

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/153/153_10.asp

http://www.zenit.org/article-25379?l=english

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Ca...canpalace.html

http://www.voanews.com/specialenglis...ate=2005-08-02


“But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country,” Baron Manhattan explains. “The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence.” [Vatican Billions]

Don't forget to throw in more than 18,000 works of art. [Fortune Dec 21/87]

The Vatican's gold treasure alone has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. The Independent has independently confirmed that “the Vatican Bank - Istituto per le Opere di Religione - manages more than $4 billion in assets. It does not reveal its profits or dividends, which are paid directly to the Pope. It enjoys the status of a central bank and has a dealing room adorned with crucifixes and papal portraits where 20 traders work .” [Independent Apr 19/02]

According to Hank's Jesuit Vatican informant, the world's ultimate Vatican bankers “wanted to make sure there was enough confusion, and enough information going all over the place that no one would pay attention to” their current cover-up in the catacombs.

Cool_CM

rohatch wrote: »

treasure

Yaaaaaaar!!!!!!!!!

mikom

The Vatican rules cannot be changed. So saith the Spider.

g5fd6ow0hseima

If people are stupid enough to listen to the church, let them off....

Sadly though, because of religion, I wasnt given the option of going to a co-ed school. Ive been through an all boys primary school and secondary school and to be honest, as im not long out of secondary school, I feel that ive suffered in a social sense.

opinion guy

Cool_CM wrote: »

Yaaaaaaar!!!!!!!!!

Yaaaaarrrrrrrrrr matey!!!!! Whar be the treasure ?????

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

And thrice Yaaarrrrrr!!!!!!!!! (Had to be done!)

Seriously, might fall down to the minister of Finance's remit. Also, people have got to stop describing themselves as "Catholic" when the next census rolls around.

the_syco

rohatch wrote: »

They never should have been allowed to get into such a position but this is Ireland.

Cos they had the money back in the day, when we didn't.

After independence in 1922, the Church remained heavily involved in health care and education, raising money and running institutions which were staffed by Catholic Orders, largely because the new state remained impoverished.

sock puppet

In fairness if the Church owns the land, they should be able to exercise some control over how the schools are run. I'd much rather the schools were publicly owned but there's not a whole lot the government can do

Mat the trasher

sock puppet wrote: »

but there's not a whole lot the government can do

Eh, CPO?

BrokenArrows

opinion guy wrote: »

Yaaaaarrrrrrrrrr matey!!!!! Whar be the treasure ?????

Hoist the gangplank, Hoist the main sails and hold course lads. Ther' be treasure on the open sea!!

walshb

Rylie Dry Salesclerk wrote: »

If people are stupid enough to listen to the church, let them off....
.

I don't think it's that simple. Children will listen to almost anything, and are very much influenced. Isn't it the church who made the adults what they are today. We've been brainwashed for years by the church, some fell for it, others realised the nonsense and hypocrisy of it all. They are still so so very buried within this country, far too much if you ask me.

Ickle Magoo

the_syco wrote: »

Cos they had the money back in the day, when we didn't.

That could be said for most countries and their fledgling education systems - how many of them are still in the same situation 80 years later?

The state has had the means to take over the education system for many years now & has chosen not to, that's not the fault of the RCC.

Pineapple_Boi

anti-theism on boards? Who woulda thunk it!

Mike 1972

If the education minister regards matters concerning education as being "beyond his remit" then its high time he considered his position ?

anti-theism on boards? Who woulda thunk it!

Someone seems to have a problem with grasping the difference between secularism (or even plain old parental choice) and anti-theism ?

I blame the education system !

sock puppet wrote: »

In fairness if the Church owns the land

How did they acquire this land. Did it just fall down from the sky ?

Rylie Dry Salesclerk wrote: »

Sadly though, because of religion, I wasnt given the option of going to a co-ed school. Ive been through an all boys primary school and secondary school and to be honest, as im not long out of secondary school, I feel that ive suffered in a social sense.

You know while a lot of people have now come around to the idea that segregating children on the basis of the colour of their skin is not really a good thing and a few people are even starting to wake up to the fact that segregating children on the basis of their (parents) religion isint much better a lot of people seem to still have this strange acceptance of gender based segragation.

Any key?

Educate Together schools are driven by the parents and have no influence of the church.

El Weirdo

Rylie Dry Salesclerk wrote: »

Sadly though, because of religion, I wasnt given the option of going to a co-ed school. Ive been through an all boys primary school and secondary school and to be honest, as im not long out of secondary school, I feel that ive suffered in a social sense.

Can't get a girlfriend?

Ickle Magoo

Any key? wrote: »

Educate Together schools are driven by the parents and have no influence of the church.

True, but with only 56 schools in the whole of the country, they are hardly a viable alternative for all who wish secular education for their children. If there is no ET in your local area then you need find land, funding, a school board, staff, etc, etc. By the time the school is set up your child is ready for secondary school. It's certainly a step in the right direction but it's hardly secularising the state education system, it's just making parents do the hard work that the church has to do to date - still no state responsibility. :mad:

Mike 1972

El Weirdo wrote: »

Can't get a girlfriend?

Maybe he wanted to study home economics or even accounting and found he couldnt

A lot of Girls wanting to do Physics, Metalwork etc experience similar difficulties.

pablomakaveli

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Hoist the gangplank, Hoist the main sails and hold course lads. Ther' be treasure on the open sea!!

Somalian pirates we.

mukki

i was horrified to see the local parish priest walking in the front door of the primary school last week

surly any parent with a child in the school would prefer that a teacher was there to meet him at the door and escort him around and back to the door when he is finished,


i know people can walk in and out as they please (parents and repairmen, salesmen,etc) but at least they can go off and have sex with a consenting adult as they wish

philologos

I don't think it's in his remit either as he'd have to close down schools of denominations which are innocent parties in all of this such as the CofI, Methodist, Presbyterian etc. If people want to educate their children in a religious ethos, that's their choice. If they don't that should be their choice also.

Pineapple_Boi

mukki wrote: »

i was horrified to see the local parish priest walking in the front door of the primary school last week

surly any parent with a child in the school would prefer that a teacher was there to meet him at the door and escort him around and back to the door when he is finished,


i know people can walk in and out as they please (parents and repairmen, salesmen,etc) but at least they can go home and have sex with a consenting adult as they wish

Horrified? You do realise very few priests actually molest a child. Especially
In todays 'sexually liberated' times.

This whole paedophile priest thing is ridiculously overblown and anti-religious zealots thrive on it

Would you prefer he used the back door?

mukki

Pineapple_Boi wrote: »

This whole paedophile priest thing is ridiculously overblown and anti-religious zealots thrive on it

sorry its just there was a "thing" about it in the papers a few weeks ago

Pineapple_Boi wrote: »

Would you prefer he used the back door?

as long as its between consenting adults

Nevyn

mukki wrote: »

i was horrified to see the local parish priest walking in the front door of the primary school last week

surly any parent with a child in the school would prefer that a teacher was there to meet him at the door and escort him around and back to the door when he is finished,

How about the parish priest walking in and disrupting classed and insisting the children bring home forms to be filled in to create records on them about the child and the family for the church as the school can not give the church that information and pushing for it to be all the children even those who are not catholic and doing so with out the principle of the school knowing and the teacher feeling they had to let him as he is on the board of management of the school appointed by the Dublin Archbishop who is patron of the school :mad:

G_R

Maybe as a form of renumeration for the Ryan Report Revelations, the RCC could donate say 70% of their schools to the relevant county VEC and they can be run by educate together. That would still leave a fair amount of Catholic schools for those parents deluded enough to want to send their kids there and then the sane people could send their kids to the Educate Together schools.

And yes, I know, the above is never gonna happen:mad:

Mike 1972

Thaedydal wrote: »

How about the parish priest walking in and disrupting classed and insisting the children bring home forms to be filled in to create records on them about the child and the family for the church as the school can not give the church that information and pushing for it to be all the children even those who are not catholic ......

Interesting but can you be a bit more specific ? What information was requested on these forms, why did parents feel compelled to supply it and were they made fully aware of where it was going and what purpose it was to be used for ?

tedstriker

At the end of the day most people here will still go to mass on Christmas day and not know why. There is a link between the church and the school because that reflects our society. People still have their children baptised, they still have weddings in the church and they still have funerals in those cold stone buildings. Sorry to say this but until people stop these things then the church will always be hardcoded into our society even if you don't like it.

We still have the Angelus on tv at 6.00pm for god sake.

Mike 1972

Some reasonably good points but.......

tedstriker wrote: »

At the end of the day most people here will still go to mass on Christmas day .

Will they ?

Time for another poll ?

Nevyn

dannym08 wrote: »

Maybe as a form of renumeration for the Ryan Report Revelations, the RCC could donate say 70% of their schools to the relevant county VEC and they can be run by educate together.

Firstly the VEC can only take on the patron ship of secondary schools, there are no primary school VEC, the rules for the incorporation of the VEC do not allow it.

The VEC and educate together are completely desperately bodies, educate together is a charity which was set up to be a patron to primary schools in the 70s and to date has 56 school nationwide.

philologos

dannym08 wrote: »

Maybe as a form of renumeration for the Ryan Report Revelations, the RCC could donate say 70% of their schools to the relevant county VEC and they can be run by educate together.

Why on earth should they be run by Educate Together? If the State is going to take the schools, the State should run them.

Biggins

If the minister for education can't control over what governs his schools - WHAT THE FCUK IS HE DOING IN HIS OVER PAID POSITION???
If he is such an incompetent fool not able to control his own department - why the fcuk is the state still paying to have his sorry ass in the top seat?

Nevyn

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Interesting but can you be a bit more specific ? What information was requested on these forms, why did parents feel compelled to supply it and were they made fully aware of where it was going and what purpose it was to be used for ?

The forms were for the archdioceses of Dublin to create confirmation register of children as many do make communion but do not go on to make confirmation and rather then distribute them out in church the priest let himself into the school, went down to the class room and insisted they handed out to all the children even those who are not christian and stated the forms were to be filled in and stood over the teacher so she wrote a note on the forms of children who would not be making confirmation asking for the forms to be filled in.

The information was name, date of birth, address, phone number, parent's names mother's maiden name date of baptims where the child was baptised.

The church has no right to that info on children who are not members of the church, the school can not give the church the information under it's data protetion measures and the church wanted to start it's own records which are due to the nature of the church exempt to certain parts of the data protection act.

Mike 1972

Thanks for that although Im wondering about this bit

Thaedydal wrote: »

so she (the teacher) wrote a note on the forms of children who would not be making confirmation asking for the forms to be filled in.

Why did the teacher do this and by doing so did she not make a data peotection issue for the school by doing so ?

Nevyn

The parish priest wanted it done, stood beside her and was not happy to leave until every child had a form to bring home. Apprenlty she tought she was being helpful when she wrote in re ink "Even tough (name of my son) is not being confirmed the church is requesting details for all children so if you wouldn’t mind filling in the relevant info."

Needless to say I did mind and called the school and lodged a complaint with the school prinicple.

spurious

There is at least one primary school under the patronage of a VEC. I believe County Dublin VEC run one.

The C.A.B. should take the schools from the Church organisations.

G_R

Thaedydal wrote: »

Firstly the VEC can only take on the patron ship of secondary schools, there are no primary school VEC, the rules for the incorporation of the VEC do not allow it.

The VEC and educate together are completely desperately bodies, educate together is a charity which was set up to be a patron to primary schools in the 70s and to date has 56 school nationwide.

sorry i was under the impression that they were one of the same. thanks for clearing that up

Jakkass wrote: »

Why on earth should they be run by Educate Together? If the State is going to take the schools, the State should run them.

again see above, i was under the impression that ET was a government organisation.

sorry

my original point still stands tho

Seloth

I dont see why this is such a big deal.
If it werent for the church education in most parts of the world would not have sprug up,Its thanks to the Church that Schools,Chruches Orphanages were built in most places.

There are two secondary schools in my local town,One of which was founded by Monks and Nuns,their orders also paid for the school to be renovated almost 100 years later as well as to moderndise it.

In primary school the parish priest helped set up sports teams and talk about morality,but not in a religiouse ways but teaching basic right and wrongs such as stealing,bullying etc.

Most people in Ireland are open theists,Not belive in the bible as hard evidence but thinking their may be some higher power etc like most European countrys.So the obviously the influce of the church is not as strong as you make it too be.

Wertz

This is the same clown under whose remit the dept of education has only managed to spend less than a quarter of it's structural funding for new school building in the middle of the biggest crisis to face the construction sector, ever.
One has to ask what in fact it is Mr O'Keefe actually does to earn his salary, barring coming out with statements about what it is he can't do in his appointed role...

spurious

Seloth wrote: »

There are two secondary schools in my local town,One of which was founded by Monks and Nuns,their orders also paid for the school to be renovated almost 100 years later as well as to moderndise it.

Their orders don't pay for them now.
The utter waste of two, sometimes three schools in a small town all being funded by the DES is one of the glaring wastes of money An Bord Snip failed to see.
Build one properly equipped school, offering all subjects at all levels, taking ALL children who apply. Level the playing field.

rohatch

Seloth wrote: »

I dont see why this is such a big deal.
If it werent for the church education in most parts of the world would not have sprug up,Its thanks to the Church that Schools,Chruches Orphanages were built in most places.

Yeah, we will just forget about the rapes, murders, the brainwashing and all the other devious ways these pernicious bastards used to control us while becoming the richest organisation on the planet.

Seloth

I'd like to point out that someone earlier on said about how not all of them were like this.,To say that is generalisation,DOnt get me wrong the covers and such are f**king horrible but to say evey priest was like that is like saying everyone from the Middleast wants to blow up the westenr civilization.

Ickle Magoo

That's hardly the point. If there were 2 teachers that systematically abused children, several other teachers and the education authorities were complicit, out of a school with a staff of over 100 - would you send your child there? Or would you want such people as far away from children and the establishments children must legally attend as you could get? I think we can all understand an establishment having the odd bag egg, but endemic abuse which is then covered up all the way up the ladder of hierarchy is truly sickening.

As horrific a read as it is, the Murphy Report report is not even the whole story. It considered how the Catholic Church handled allegations of sexual abuse against a sample of 46 priests between 1 January 1975 and 30 April 2004 in the Dublin Archdiocese only - can you imagine the statistics if you include all priests in every archdiocese for the last 100 years? :eek::(

Jumpy

Cool_CM wrote: »

Yaaaaaaar!!!!!!!!!

HAI. *bows*

ScissorPaperRock

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Some reasonably good points but.......



Will they ?

Time for another poll ?

I really would be interested in such a poll. See who would have gone to mass on Christmas day before all of this, who goes to keep the family happy, who goes every Sunday out of choice, who does it to keep others happy, or to prevent a negative opinion of themselves/their family in the community, or for tradition's sake.

What say you?

Edit: sorry for going a little off topic here. Mods feel free to delete if necessary.

Ickle Magoo

I'm not Catholic so I wouldn't go to mass anyway but I have heard numerous discussions between friends and family members questioning the same thing. The general consensus seemed to be no, some seem to be starting to favour agnosticism.

My mother-in-law was quite devout but says she cannot bear the thought of paying collection money to an establishment that is still paying priests that have abused a pension or living. I can see where she is coming from.

Seth Brundle

mukki wrote: »

i know people can walk in and out as they please (parents and repairmen, salesmen,etc) but at least they can go off and have sex with a consenting adult as they wish

You seem happy for non-priests to wander into a school on the assumption that they wouldn't rape a kid yet make this assumption about any priest?

Biggins wrote: »

If the minister for education can't control over what governs his schools - WHAT THE FCUK IS HE DOING IN HIS OVER PAID POSITION???
If he is such an incompetent fool not able to control his own department - why the fcuk is the state still paying to have his sorry ass in the top seat?

The same could be said about most of the cabinet. However, they are there because they were elected willingly by the idiot public!

Hank_Jones

I personally don't like the religious influence that there is in schools. You're basically forced to partake in ''Religion'' classes even though you have no interest in it...

Then you're forced to listen to priests ramble on about god and religion at any sort of event that the school has.

My main worries would be regarding the church trying to influence young minds regarding religion. But to be honest with the track record of priests in the country I'm not sure they should be allowed to be around younger people...

Teferi

I went to a private school run by a Catholic order.

We weren't absolutely forced into taking part in an religious services if we really didn't want to.

In later years, they try bring balance to 'Religion' classes, studying other beliefs and faiths. Everything from Judaism to the various forms of Neo-Paganism.

*shock horror* They didn't cause a fuss when gay lads brought male dates to the debs etc.

I wasn't raped, buggered or coerced into doing anything I didn't want to (I'm aware at the possible innuendo in this sentence). They didn't attempt to influence my young and fragile mind into anything not culturally acceptable (This, of course, means we were thought various Catholic values etc. Ireland, believe it or not would still be considered a Catholic country so nothing out of norm here).

I still count a number of the brothers as confidantes and see them regularly enough.

If I was to have kids in later years, I will happily send them to this school and would be most happy to have priests interact with them.

Not all priests are rapists or idiots. Only the ones reported in the media.

Although people will poo-poo this comment because I have made the extra sin of coming from a private school.

(and it feels important to say it - I'm agnostic by the by)

Ickle Magoo

Teferi wrote: »

I went to a private school run by a Catholic order.

We weren't absolutely forced into taking part in an religious services if we really didn't want to.

Which completely misses the point re schools supposedly for the general public having religious influence, especially over pupil selection. Of course not "all" priests are anything and if parents wish to run that particular gauntlet then they should be free to do so in any number of privately run establishments - I object that as yet I have little or no choice NOT to run that risk.

I'm not sure if you realise just how perverse the argument that it's perfectly reasonable that religious bodies have free access to children because they can't all can be rapists and you weren't buggered, is?

aDeener

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Maybe he wanted to study home economics or even accounting and found he couldnt

A lot of Girls wanting to do Physics, Metalwork etc experience similar difficulties.

ehh accounting isnt generally taught just to females? where did you get that from?

aDeener

Teferi wrote: »

I went to a private school run by a Catholic order.

We weren't absolutely forced into taking part in an religious services if we really didn't want to.

In later years, they try bring balance to 'Religion' classes, studying other beliefs and faiths. Everything from Judaism to the various forms of Neo-Paganism.

*shock horror* They didn't cause a fuss when gay lads brought male dates to the debs etc.

I wasn't raped, buggered or coerced into doing anything I didn't want to (I'm aware at the possible innuendo in this sentence). They didn't attempt to influence my young and fragile mind into anything not culturally acceptable (This, of course, means we were thought various Catholic values etc. Ireland, believe it or not would still be considered a Catholic country so nothing out of norm here).

I still count a number of the brothers as confidantes and see them regularly enough.

If I was to have kids in later years, I will happily send them to this school and would be most happy to have priests interact with them.

Not all priests are rapists or idiots. Only the ones reported in the media.

Although people will poo-poo this comment because I have made the extra sin of coming from a private school.

(and it feels important to say it - I'm agnostic by the by)

bloody hell you would be complaining if they did :rolleyes: