Sexism disguised as chivalry - how does it affect you?

seamus · 14-12-2009 01:29PM #1

OK, probably been done to death, but no reason not to do it again.

Michael Ring (TD) was on the radio this morning and he made an "interesting" comment about Paul Gogarty's outburst. It was along the lines of, "It was outrageous. I mean, not just for the rest of the Dáil to hear it, but for the other people working there. There are even lots of women working there."

Which, although he thinks he's being "honourable", is effectively saying, "Poor little women can't handle some bad words in the same way that a man can".

Just got me thinking about the other things that men, particularly older men might do because they think it's right and honourable but in actual fact is ridiculously sexist and patronising.

Even stuff that I find myself doing; The "done thing" in our office is that women get in and out of the lifts first. It's never been said, by anyone, but it's just something that almost every man seems to do, and most women seem to accept that the men will stand aside and let her out first. Aside from being respectful in the "ladies first" sense, I can't see any reason to do it. So I can't decide if I'm being chivalrous or sexist when I do it.

Does this kind of stuff occur to you ladies on a daily basis, and perhaps more importantly, does it bother you?

IndigoStarr · 14-12-2009 01:32PM

I think that there is a difference between chivalry and sexism. While the above example of someone thinking that a woman can't handle bad language is undoubtedly patronising, I think that there is a difference between things like that and a man letting a woman go first or holding the door open.
I would call myself a feminist but I appreciate it when my boyfriend does little things like that for me.

panda100 · 14-12-2009 01:35PM

seamus wrote: »

"There are even lots of women working there."

In the dail?? No theres not, unless there working as secretarys

Leprachaun · 14-12-2009 01:40PM

panda100 wrote: »

In the dail?? No theres not, unless there working as secretarys

Now THAT's chivalrous!

Morlar · 14-12-2009 01:40PM

seamus wrote: »

The "done thing" in our office is that women get in and out of the lifts first. It's never been said, by anyone, but it's just something that almost every man seems to do, and most women seem to accept that the men will stand aside and let her out first.

I don't think that's chivalrous or sexist just basic manners. I really think people over-analyse this stuff sometimes.

NothingMan · 14-12-2009 01:43PM

seamus wrote: »

Even stuff that I find myself doing; The "done thing" in our office is that women get in and out of the lifts first. It's never been said, by anyone, but it's just something that almost every man seems to do, and most women seem to accept that the men will stand aside and let her out first. Aside from being respectful in the "ladies first" sense, I can't see any reason to do it. So I can't decide if I'm being chivalrous or sexist when I do it.

Really? (Y) ? Very hard to look at the lovely bottoms when you exit the lift first.

Sorry for my sexism ladies but you do all have lovely bottoms.

I don't think it's sexist to hold a door open or the whole paying on a first date thing. I know some people think women like to pick and choose the equal rights they get but nice "chivelrous" gertures are just that. As long as there is no sexist intentions behind the act then accept it for what it is.

Silverfish · 14-12-2009 01:46PM

I do think sometimes that in general, men fret over this more than women do.

I've held doors open for men many times, and received abuse for doing so... 'About f**king time' and 'Finally, a woman that knows her place' and 'Took ye f**king long enough to start doing that, didn't it?', and so on. I still do it instinctively.

Now, what I've experienced, is if I am walking up to a door with a heavy box or whatever, the lads I work with, if they are walking ahead of me, will let it close in my face, usually with a comment of 'You want equality, there you go, open your own doors!'
On the off-chance someone does open a door for me, there's a speech afterwards, where I am expected to defend myself because some woman somewhere didn't say thank you to this guy in the past for holding open a door.

Or if I ask for a hand lifting something, I'm frequently told no, to lift it myself, whereas if one of the lads needs a hand lifting something, the other lads don't bat an eyelid.

So anyway, I think the whole thing is overanalysed anyway. It's just politeness and manners. If you hold a door open for a woman, then I assume if it was a guy walking behind you, you wouldn't slam it in his face, you'd hold it open for him too.

I'm not sure about the lift thing, that seems weird.

Morlar · 14-12-2009 01:53PM

The one area I probably over analyse this is walking home after work (in the dark) behind a woman. Say if you are 10, 15 or 20 feet behind a woman who walks as fast as I do, I always tend to try to hurry past her so that she will not feel uncomfortable with a strange man walking behind her. Sometimes this boils down to power-walking at breakneck speed just to get past her. I have often wondered if this is actually necessary at all or just being over cautious ? Do women notice men doing this? Is all that power-walking in the dark necessary ?

Silverfish · 14-12-2009 01:58PM

Morlar wrote: »

The one area I probably over analyse this is walking home after work (in the dark) behind a woman. Say if you are 10, 15 or 20 feet behind a woman who walks as fast as I do, I always tend to try to hurry past her so that she will not feel uncomfortable with a strange man walking behind her. Sometimes this boils down to power-walking at breakneck speed just to get past her. I have often wondered if this is actually necessary at all or just being over cautious ? Do women notice men doing this? Is all that power-walking in the dark necessary ?

Yeah, I have to admit I do notice this, I am extremely wary of anyone walking behind me. But to be honest, I know a good few males who are nervous of people walking behind them at night too.

I've had to do it when I've been out for my walk on a darkish evening and end up behind a woman who keeps looking back and is clearly nervous, however in my experience, suddenly speeding up and approaching them is not a good idea

Now I just cross to the other side of the road, and cross back up further.

who the fug · 14-12-2009 01:58PM

Morlar

So I am not the only one who does that?

genericguy · 14-12-2009 02:00PM

Silverfish wrote: »

I do think sometimes that in general, men fret over this more than women do.

I've held doors open for men many times, and received abuse for doing so... 'About f**king time' and 'Finally, a woman that knows her place' and 'Took ye f**king long enough to start doing that, didn't it?', and so on. I still do it instinctively.

Now, what I've experienced, is if I am walking up to a door with a heavy box or whatever, the lads I work with, if they are walking ahead of me, will let it close in my face, usually with a comment of 'You want equality, there you go, open your own doors!'
On the off-chance someone does open a door for me, there's a speech afterwards, where I am expected to defend myself because some woman somewhere didn't say thank you to this guy in the past for holding open a door.

Or if I ask for a hand lifting something, I'm frequently told no, to lift it myself, whereas if one of the lads needs a hand lifting something, the other lads don't bat an eyelid.

So anyway, I think the whole thing is overanalysed anyway. It's just politeness and manners. If you hold a door open for a woman, then I assume if it was a guy walking behind you, you wouldn't slam it in his face, you'd hold it open for him too.

I'm not sure about the lift thing, that seems weird.

the lads you work with sound like absolute ****.

Silverfish · 14-12-2009 02:02PM

genericguy wrote: »

the lads you work with sound like absolute ****.

No, they're 'only joking'.
And I've experienced this -and so have other females I know- in jobs where they are the only female. It's just the way it is.

WindSock · 14-12-2009 02:03PM

Jesus Silverfish, you work with a bunch of complete dickbags.

In my experience I so far haven't come across that sour grape sort of mentality when I open doors or help people. It's manners, not chivalry. It's only sexist when there is an issue made over it regarding gender.

Last week I was walking back into my work cabin and there were a crowd of lads coming the other way out the door. I stepped aside and one of them shouted 'jaysus lads, you'd think one of yiz could let the girl through'
I know the chap meant well, but to be honest I felt a bit embarrassed. I would rather not be treated with any more or less respect or manners because I am a chick.

panda100 · 14-12-2009 02:05PM

Morlar wrote: »

I don't think that's chivalrous or sexist just basic manners. I really think people over-analyse this stuff sometimes.

Not really, what Michael Ring said was sexist and should be challenged.

I find the word chivalrous quite outdated tbh. Chivalry is based on the idea that we should treat someone differnetly because of their sex, and specifically treat women differnetly because they are percieved to be weaker and fragile.

Now dont get we wrong, I am all for politeness and common courtesy.
I think men should be kind to women, and women kind to men.This includes holding doors open for each other etc.

What Michael Ring said was sexist. I hate when people swear to other people. Its the rudest thing anyone can do and It shows a huge ignorance of the person doing the swearing. This has nothing to do with gender and suggesting women are to fragile to hear swear words really just reinforces how terribly patriarchal the dail still is.
I think society spends so much time focussing on how vunerable us women are that it forgets how vunerable men are, and this leads to enormous problems in our society.

amacachi · 14-12-2009 02:06PM

Have to admit I was expecting something else opening this thread but his comment is just a stupid one. Outdated and daft. If anything he was probably trying to be the opposite of sexist and just tripped himself up.

seamus · 14-12-2009 02:10PM

NothingMan wrote: »

Really? (Y) ?

Aside from the "it's just plain manners" aspect, I can't see any archaic reason for it in the way that Michael Ring seems to think that women can't handle bad language.

WindSock wrote: »

Jesus Silverfish, you work with a bunch of complete dickbags.

+1

Last week I was walking back into my work cabin and there were a crowd of lads coming the other way out the door. I stepped aside and one of them shouted 'jaysus lads, you'd think one of yiz could let the girl through'
I know the chap meant well, but to be honest I felt a bit embarrassed. I would rather not be treated with any more or less respect or manners because I am a chick.

I've actually seen that occur here too, where a bunch of lads goes through a door that a woman's waiting to go through, inevitably someone either stops to let her though (blocking everyone else) or makes a comment along the above lines, and the girl is often embarrassed and thanking/apologising to everyone.

dogeyknees · 14-12-2009 02:18PM

This chivalry/ sexist thing does my head in sometimes. A lot of women seem to pick and choose what is sexist or chivalrous depending on whether it benefits them or not. I was brought up to be a gentleman but i have abandoned that as there are not many 'ladies' about these days and i got sick of the snipes and dirty looks for doing something 'nice'.

amacachi · 14-12-2009 02:23PM

WindSock wrote: »

Last week I was walking back into my work cabin and there were a crowd of lads coming the other way out the door. I stepped aside and one of them shouted 'jaysus lads, you'd think one of yiz could let the girl through'
I know the chap meant well, but to be honest I felt a bit embarrassed. I would rather not be treated with any more or less respect or manners because I am a chick.

See to me that sounds like he thought they just should've let you through. If it was a fella instead of you and he referred to him as a "fella" should that person feel embarrassed?

krudler · 14-12-2009 02:29PM

In my own experience women have a lot of double standards when it comes to things like this, to some holding open a door or lifting something is some caveman way of saying shes not capable,not doing it is you being an unchivalrous dick, i do things to be nice and thats it, seems women are the ones who over analyse it, when im out with my gf i hold the door open for her and let her go through sometimes, other times she does it for me, its called basic manners, nothing more. I work in an office thats 85-90% women and have heard people whinging when they have to lift something heavier than a stapler, and others who complain when one of us lads is asked to do it as they have no problem doing it themselves, horses for courses i guess

Mackleton · 14-12-2009 02:31PM

To be fair, I agree with the other poster that said he was probably trying too hard to be chivalrous but went the other way. Happens quite frequently when people try too hard to be totally PC and end up sounding like bigots.

Personally I find that a lot of the men of this generation seem to have given up the opening doors, pulling out seats lark. Not sure why this is but it doesn't really bother me, why should a man do that just because he feels obliged? Like I absolutely wouldn't expect a man to pay for the first date, halves all the way with that stuff. I would hold a door for man, and have done twice today already!

On the other hand, I would be miffed if a man, witnessed me struggling with something, or carrying something so that I couldn't open the door and walked right past me, to me that's just ignoring common courtesy. If a guy is a decent, well brought up person then usually they will jump right in if they see I am a a disadvantage, stuff like walking you home at night, or helping lift something.

I think you all are right saying that in this day and age all a woman (or most women) would accept is the common courtesy you would show anyone else, not special treatment.

WindSock · 14-12-2009 02:47PM

amacachi wrote: »

See to me that sounds like he thought they just should've let you through. If it was a fella instead of you and he referred to him as a "fella" should that person feel embarrassed?

It is an unwritten common sense rule to let people 'out' first before going in.

I doubt very much he would have piped up if I were a dude. But he was trying to do the right thing. Of course I amn't going to scold him for it. Sometimes I would politely say 'ah I'm grand, thanks' though. I expect nothing. However that doesn't mean I would refuse help if it's offered and I needed it. That's just silly.

dogeyknees · 14-12-2009 03:15PM

Mackleton wrote: »

To be fair, I agree with the other poster that said he was probably trying too hard to be chivalrous but went the other way. Happens quite frequently when people try too hard to be totally PC and end up sounding like bigots.

Personally I find that a lot of the men of this generation seem to have given up the opening doors, pulling out seats lark. Not sure why this is but it doesn't really bother me, why should a man do that just because he feels obliged? Like I absolutely wouldn't expect a man to pay for the first date, halves all the way with that stuff. I would hold a door for man, and have done twice today already!

On the other hand, I would be miffed if a man, witnessed me struggling with something, or carrying something so that I couldn't open the door and walked right past me, to me that's just ignoring common courtesy. If a guy is a decent, well brought up person then usually they will jump right in if they see I am a a disadvantage, stuff like walking you home at night, or helping lift something.

I think you all are right saying that in this day and age all a woman (or most women) would accept is the common courtesy you would show anyone else, not special treatment.

I have given up on opening doors as i was shouted at by a woman for doing so! I would always help someone struggling, male or female but some women just use this as a way of getting out of a bit of work. I have had a few arguments with women at work who ask me to carry something downstairs - if its heavy, i can understand, if its not then carry it yourself and don't do the helpless act.

I had my knee reconstructed a few years ago and 2 weeks after i came off crutches some of the women were at me to carry stuff downstairs for them - i was barely able to support my own weight let alone carry stuff... ironically whilst on crutches, not once did a woman offer up her seat when i was getting the bus. Equality is a 2 way thing.

Morlar · 14-12-2009 03:26PM

dogeyknees wrote: »

I had my knee reconstructed a few years ago

So it's true what they say about usernames hehe

dogeyknees · 14-12-2009 03:28PM

Morlar wrote: »

So it's true what they say about usernames hehe

Yep, that's the reason for the name... plus the fact that i have to take glucosamine every day as i am farked if i don't!

Nevyn · 14-12-2009 04:07PM

Michael Ring would have been better of saying that Paul Gogarty was no gentleman and left it at that.

Whispered · 14-12-2009 04:47PM

Silverfish wrote: »

No, they're 'only joking'.
And I've experienced this -and so have other females I know- in jobs where they are the only female. It's just the way it is.

Thats not always the way it is. I've been in a male dominated field from the time I left school. I was the only girl on my course, I then worked in an engineers where there was one other girl - the receptionist. I moved from there to another company where again I was the only girl in a workforce of up to 30 at times.

I have experienced some sexist comments, mainly from customers in the second job and strangers who find girls in hard hats funny in the first. I have never ever experienced anything near what you seem to have.

If a man offers to carry something heavy for me, I wouldn't take it as an insult. I think it's sweet. I remember moving out of home. I did my first food shop on my own, got the trolley to the carpark and realised......I had to somehow carry all the bags home. Silly I know, I should have thought of it before hand, but I didn't.

Anyway, I was struggling up the road with my bags when a man, about 17 or 18, and not Irish, ran up to me and offered to help. I was so grateful. He helped me back to the house and as I was saying thanks he just said welcome and left. The reason I mention that is because he was so obviously not expecting anything else like an invitation in etc. He did it to be nice and I'm sure if he saw a man struggling in the same way, he'd have done the same.

Sometimes sexism can be disguised as chivalry, but sometimes just being nice can be disguised as chivalry. If someone does something nice for me, I thank them. I don't try to figure out the reason WHY they did it or what their real motive was. I just appreciate it.

Silverfish · 14-12-2009 04:57PM

helena.ryan wrote: »

Thats not always the way it is. I've been in a male dominated field from the time I left school. I was the only girl on my course, I then worked in an engineers where there was one other girl - the receptionist. I moved from there to another company where again I was the only girl in a workforce of up to 30 at times.

I have experienced some sexist comments, mainly from customers in the second job and strangers who find girls in hard hats funny in the first. I have never ever experienced anything near what you seem to have.

I'm delighted and reassured that you haven't experienced this at all, but I can assure you it does happen.

In my last job, I was the 3rd female to resign due to sexist behaviour, and there has been one girl who has resigned since me, I believe there's a male working in the role now. When the issue was raised with management, they said 'It's just the way it is' so it was a quote from them

Whispered · 14-12-2009 05:03PM

I think it's a disgrace you experienced that, it's bullying whether it was directed at a man or a woman. Did all of that happen in one business or have you experienced it elsewhere too?

I wonder, if a man made a statement that women treat them in a certain way, and thats just the way it is, everyone would be jumping on them saying that they are making assumptions on all women based on experience with a few and that in itself is sexist.

genericguy · 14-12-2009 05:05PM

Silverfish wrote: »

No, they're 'only joking'.
And I've experienced this -and so have other females I know- in jobs where they are the only female. It's just the way it is.

It shouldn't be the way it is. If somebody treated my girlfriend like that in work or anywhere else, I'm pretty sure she'd respond with a kick in the gonads, and she'd be dead right. I work in a place with a lot of women, and I treat them with respect, it's really not difficult to have manners.

don't be afraid to stand up for yourself, and don't be afraid to pull the face off the next lad that slams a door in yours.

Silverfish · 14-12-2009 05:10PM

It's happened in one or two places. Now, the majority of workplaces have been fine, it's just the odd time, one person has taken issue with a female being in the role, and manages to get almost a 'mob' together, I would imagine for anyone who doesn't agree it would be very hard to speak up.
But in fairness, a few have on my behalf.

I go out of my way to be courteous, civil, friendly, smiley, and helpful - just to ensure I am in no way bringing this behaviour on myself. I don't rise to it, however if there have been a number of incidents, I raise it with management. But it is just the way it is - for example, no invite to the office xmas party based on gender. I don't bat an eyelid because I'd rather have a job than fight this particular battle, but I'm just giving the example that there's worse kinds of sexism than someone trying to be nice in a clumsy awkward buffoonish way.

That said, I don't really believe in chivalry, I believe in courteous and civil behaviour, from both sides.

Mr. Presentable · 14-12-2009 05:15PM

It's about respect and consideration for the other person - regardless of sex. We are undoubtedly guilty of overthinking every situation. I don't think it's sexism, or chivalry - or indeed, sexism as chivalry re the OP.

Sexism disguised as chivalry - how does it affect you?

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