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A way to sidestep the 4c carbon tax

  • 09-12-2009 9:40pm
    #1
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭


    Works for me, you're mileage (sic) may vary.

    From midnight tonight unleaded in my local Tesco (Maynooth) should be 119.9c a litre. E85 in my local Maxol will be 97.9 still. That's 22c of a difference, or 4.5 litres worth of carbon tax.

    Simple maths. For every 4.5 litres of unleaded add in 1 litre of E85 into your tank. That'll give you 18% of a mix of E85 (15.5% to 19.5% ethanol depending on your unleaded).

    [Standard disclaimer: studies show your car will probably run fine on up to 65% ethanol, but it's your call]

    At 30% E85 I seem to get better economy too.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    kona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,525 ✭✭✭kona


    Is E85 not included in the carbon tax? sure only 15% of it is ethanol. If it isnt happy days, ive been running e85 for almost a year now. Great stuff.


  • #3
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    E85 is 85% ethanol, which is not a fossil fuel.

    Not all fossil fuels were targetted in the budget. E85 (or rather the 15% which is unleaded) was not one of those not touched.


  • #4
    Bandara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭Bandara


    (Taking off my petrol industry hat for this)

    sorry but the hassle of going to 2 different petrol stations to save 2 euro on a €50 fill is not practical at all


  • #5
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    You can do it in the same station if you like (Maxol sell Unleaded aswell as E85). I just chose to do it in two as I do some shopping in Tesco and pass Maxol on the way home.

    My post did leave it open to the imagination as to how far this could be taken. The last fill I did worked out almost €5 cheaper (now it will be even more).


  • #6
    ytareh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ytareh


    Hey this never occured to me!So I could just go to the local Maxol (which sells E85 afaik) and just pump in some of both and save a packet AND maybe even have a faster more economical running car !So you reckon 1:4.5 is a safe optimum?Cool!Eh youre SURE about this!?


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  • #7
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Yes, you could stick the green pump in, fill up so much Unleaded and then top if off using the Red E85 pump.

    For me a ratio of about 1 part E85 to 3 Unleaded seems to be optimum. I don't know about anyone else's car!


  • #8
    ytareh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ytareh


    What are you driving JHMEG if you dont mind me askin?


  • #9
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    So you suggest running 30% ethanol? Won't that cause potential long term damage to the fuel system? Not to mention ethanol burns off more quickly leaving you to fill the car more..


  • #10
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Civic IMA (ie Hybrid). Not the only one here to have experminted with E85 tho. Matt Simis, derry and Ninety9er have all run or are running E85.

    Edit: Tenzor - as stated 30% E85 seems optimum for me in terms of efficiency. That would suggest it burns off slower.


  • #11
    Tiesto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Tiesto


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Works for me, you're mileage (sic) may vary.

    From midnight tonight unleaded in my local Tesco (Maynooth) should be 119.9c a litre. E85 in my local Maxol will be 97.9 still.


    I bought petrol in a Maxol garage a couple of hours ago and it was around the 1.19 mark. Do you wreckon that include the 4c increase? THe B******s didnt even wait until midnight if thats the case :)


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  • #12
    kona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,525 ✭✭✭kona


    Tiesto wrote: »
    I bought petrol in a Maxol garage a couple of hours ago and it was around the 1.19 mark. Do you wreckon that include the 4c increase? THe B******s didnt even wait until midnight if thats the case :)

    1.19 is right for dublin. been that price for weeks


  • #13
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Tiesto wrote: »
    I bought petrol in a Maxol garage a couple of hours ago and it was around the 1.19 mark. Do you wreckon that include the 4c increase? THe B******s didnt even wait until midnight if thats the case :)

    Shud be 1.23 tomorrow..


  • #14
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Kinda the reason I've been buying it in Tesco for 115.9, that and the clubcard points: A lot of 4-for-1 offers... eg €10 worth of clubcard points is worth €40 against a ferry ticket.


  • #15
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Simple maths. For every 4.5 litres of unleaded add in 1 litre of E85 into your tank. That'll give you 18% of a mix of E85 (15% to 18% ethanol depending on your unleaded).

    Assuming that the regular unleaded is 100% petrol (which it may not be), then adding 18% E85 (which is 85% ethanol / 15% petrol) will give a ethanol content to the mix of at least 15.45%. (Of the 5.5L mix, only 85% of 1L (or 850ml) is ethanol).

    If the unleaded was something like E5 - 95% petrol / 5% ethanol, then that mix ratio would have about 19.55% ethanol.


  • #16
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    macplaxton wrote: »
    Slightly flaky maths there.

    True, but the mad thing is your maths are even more wrong, primarily cos of this:
    85% of 1L (or 150ml)

    85% of 1L is.... 850ml!


  • #17
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,936 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Lads, both your maths leave a bit to be desired :p

    In case the unleaded is 100% unleaded petrol:

    l petrol eth
    4.5 4.5 0
    1 0.15 0.85
    5.5 4.65 0.85
    perc 0.154545455

    In case the unleaded is in fact E5 (95% unleaded petrol and 5% ethanol)

    4.5 4.275 0.225
    1 0.15 0.85
    5.5 4.425 1.075
    perc 0.195454545

    So between 15.5 and 19.5 percent

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  • #18
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    JHMEG wrote: »
    True, but the mad thing is your maths are even more wrong, primarily cos of this:



    85% of 1L is.... 850ml!

    Yes, that bit wasn't clear, I've corrected it. Does it look right now? :D


  • #19
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    unkel wrote: »
    Lads, both your maths leave a bit to be desired :p

    In case the unleaded is 100% unleaded petrol:

    l petrol eth
    4.5 4.5 0
    1 0.15 0.85
    5.5 4.65 0.85
    perc 0.154545455

    In case the unleaded is in fact E5 (95% unleaded petrol and 5% ethanol)

    4.5 4.275 0.225
    1 0.15 0.85
    5.5 4.425 1.075
    perc 0.195454545

    So between 15.5 and 19.5 percent

    Yep, totally right chief. :pac:


  • #20
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,936 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    macplaxton wrote: »
    Now that's back to front. E85 is 85% petrol 15% ethanol, check again. :pac:

    Maybe you should check again, Sir :p

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  • #21
    Saab Ed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    Sorry now for asking a dumb ass qusetion but what if I was to run the wifes 02 Scenic on E85 and nothing else ( cause I know she'll tell me where to stick it if I tell her to start mixing at the pumps :D ) what potential damage might I do short term if any!!!


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  • #22
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Can we just say 15% to 20% and leave it at that. It's not really relevant anyway.


  • #23
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,936 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Can we just say 15% to 20%

    Where did you get those figures? ;)

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  • #24
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Saab Ed wrote: »
    Sorry now for asking a dumb ass qusetion but what if I was to run the wifes 02 Scenic on E85 and nothing else ( cause I know she'll tell me where to stick it if I tell her to start mixing at the pumps :D ) what potential damage might I do short term if any!!!

    Car probably won't work on 100% E85 (there are some potential fuelling issues), tho you are unlikely to damage it.

    Run mixes from 10% upwards in it and see which suits best.

    Matt Simis posted a table before of compounds which are damaged by alcolohol. None are in a modern car.

    There are rumours that as petrol is a slightly better lubricant than E85 that you should change your oil more often if using E85, but I have always changed oil at twice the frequency recommended by the manufacturer.


  • #25
    kona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,525 ✭✭✭kona


    Saab Ed wrote: »
    Sorry now for asking a dumb ass qusetion but what if I was to run the wifes 02 Scenic on E85 and nothing else ( cause I know she'll tell me where to stick it if I tell her to start mixing at the pumps :D ) what potential damage might I do short term if any!!!

    Well Fuel pumps, fuel lines fuel tank will all corrode. Along with anything aluminium along the way.


  • #26
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,936 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Matt Simis posted a table before of compounds which are damaged by alcolohol. None are in a modern car.

    Here's Matt's post

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  • #27
    Saab Ed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    kona wrote: »
    Well Fuel pumps, fuel lines fuel tank will all corrode. Along with anything aluminium along the way.

    Okay so 4.5 to 1 is fine , a little bit more isnt a problem , 100% just wont run, the potential damage is to the fueling system ( is that short or long term ) but this is debatable.....Am I on top now!


  • #28
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    unkel wrote: »
    Where did you get those figures? ;)

    Your figures are correct.


  • #29
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    unkel wrote: »
    Maybe you should check again, Sir :p

    I will, I have and I will concede, that my working-out is correct, but my composition of E85 fuel is wrong. :o:D.

    Time for another edit...


  • #30
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Saab Ed wrote: »
    Okay so 4.5 to 1 is fine , a little bit more isnt a problem , 100% just wont run, the potential damage is to the fueling system ( is that short or long term ) but this is debatable.....Am I on top now!

    100% will probably run, but with the CEL on. With the CEL on the ECU is running open loop and the car will drink fuel. It also may not actually run that well either.

    You won't do any damage to the fuelling system.

    As I said, start small (10%) and work up. (Just don't start at E85 in on top of an empty tank.) Keep records and do your maths. 10% to 20% for me as much as makes no difference, but by 30% there is a difference. I have run at 50% but have had pretty bad fuel economy. The weather turned cold at the same time so I'm not sure which is to blame. Further investigation is required.


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  • #31
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    JHMEG wrote: »
    unkel wrote: »
    JHMEG wrote: »
    Can we just say 15% to 20% and leave it at that. It's not really relevant anyway.
    Where did you get those figures? ;)
    Your figures are correct.
    +1

    Personally I would like to buy proper 100% petrol, but then I don't run anything modern.


  • #32
    Saab Ed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    One last thing, whats a CEL?


  • #33
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Saab Ed wrote: »
    One last thing, whats a CEL?

    Check Engine Light

    check_engine.gif


  • #34
    Saab Ed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Check Engine Light

    check_engine.gif


    george-w-bush.jpg

    I had a moment :P:D


  • #35
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Saab Ed wrote: »

    I had a moment :P:D

    LOL. Maybe not everyone calls them CEL. Maybe a more common name is MIL. I'm just used to CEL.


  • #36
    vectra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,621 ✭✭✭✭vectra


    Simpler solution is just go and buy a diesel car... save lots on fuel :D


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  • #37
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,815 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    Very interesting thread, thanks (also read Matt's thread from here).

    A quick question: any opinion on the pros and cons of trying say an E20 mix in a 1997 2L auto Accord (F20B3 engine, sohc, non-vtech)?

    Not your ornery onager



  • #38
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    esel wrote: »
    Very interesting thread, thanks (also read Matt's thread from here).

    A quick question: any opinion on the pros and cons of trying say an E20 mix in a 1997 2L auto Accord (F20B3 engine, sohc, non-vtech)?

    Start small, 10%, and work up. Keep notes and calculations. I wouldn't see any issue with 20%.


  • #39
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Start small, 10%, and work up. Keep notes and calculations. I wouldn't see any issue with 20%.

    Good to see you are still experimenting JHMEG! :)

    I tried a 50%'ish mix (50:50 - E5:E85, not 50% ethanol) on the BMW 530i. It did generate a CEL (O2 sensor outside adaptation) and did seem a bit more perky (it needs it..) but mpg plummeted. Went from 29 to 21mpg, same trips. Ill try a smaller mix, but I estimate at around a 15% mix (as I was "flushing" it with petrol, hard to say) it was returning 24mpg instead of 29, so still not wonderful, but more experimentation needed.
    CEL went away at 35% mix (approx).


    And just to reiterate an earlier point, you dont have to drive to 2 different stations or pumps, you can use both E5 and E85 nozzles at one pump and they just charge you for both. They really didnt seem to care.


  • #40
    demag
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭demag


    I'm running my van on pure veg oil, no carbon tax on that.


  • #41
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Brilliant thread Jhmeg.
    Like yourself Im in Maynooth and that Maxol is my local station aswell.
    20-25 euro does me for most of the week--Maynooth to Dublin 200 miles per week + whatever mileage I do after that.
    I`ll be giving it a go with the Accent this weekend.

    What would you reckon would be the best mix to start out with?

    And one more suggestion:
    Would anyone have a chart (or be able to make a chart) with the percentages that different mixes would give?
    Might make it easy for those willing to try it out.

    For every 4.5 litres of unleaded add in 1 litre of E85 into your tank. That'll give you 18% of a mix of E85 (15.5% to 19.5% ethanol depending on your unleaded).


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  • #42
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    demag wrote: »
    I'm running my van on pure veg oil, no carbon tax on that.

    If you buy new, clean Veg Oil it will cost you the same as Diesel will it not!?


  • #43
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    If you buy new, clean Veg Oil it will cost you the same as Diesel will it not!?
    Maybe. But it still has no carbon tax! :)

    Interesting about your O2 sensor. Afaik I have a wideband sensor as the car runs up to about 26:1 (air:fuel) at times. Will be interesting to see how other people get on.


  • #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    macplaxton wrote: »
    +1

    Personally I would like to buy proper 100% petrol, but then I don't run anything modern.

    The mixture is actually a much better fuel with a higher octane than our crap 95ron unleaded.


  • #45
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Astrid Plain Bargain wrote: »
    The mixture is actually a much better fuel with a higher octane than our crap 95ron unleaded.

    In addition the EU have mandated that up to 5% biofuel (ie ethanol) is permissable at the moment, and that will be increasing to 10%, without a need to inform the customer.

    Soon enough you could be running 10% without being aware of it!


  • #46
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    Astrid Plain Bargain wrote: »
    The mixture is actually a much better fuel with a higher octane than our crap 95ron unleaded.

    Agree it has a higher octane, but the mix wouldn't necessarily be better for older vehicles with incompatible materials in the fuel system.


  • #47
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    JHMEG wrote: »
    In addition the EU have mandated that up to 5% biofuel (ie ethanol) is permissable at the moment, and that will be increasing to 10%, without a need to inform the customer.

    Soon enough you could be running 10% without being aware of it!

    I am aware of that, and that's plain wrong. I should be informed as to what I'm actually putting in my car. In the UK, Shell Optimax is guaranteed to have no ethanol in it.


  • #48
    itarumaa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 704 ✭✭✭itarumaa


    Why there are serious concerns about that 10% biofuel in Finnish media and talks about that some cars might not accept that, if it is so safe to try these things.

    So I would not try things like this in my car to save couple of euros, but sure, trust a unknown person in the internet, it is a safe way to go:)

    How can you make sure that you don´t have any issues in the future?


  • #49
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    macplaxton wrote: »
    In the UK, Shell Optimax is guaranteed to have no ethanol in it.
    Optimax is a product, so it's guaranteed to have whatever they say it has. Unleaded is a generic term with no specific formula.

    Bottom line is if you don't want to experiment with ethanol in your car, then don't!


  • #50
    Hoffmans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Hoffmans


    shouldnt the fat cat oil companies be picking up this tax tab after all they are the ones taking the oil out of the ground:confused::confused:


  • #51
    Bandara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭Bandara


    Hoffmans wrote: »
    shouldnt the fat cat oil companies be picking up this tax tab after all they are the ones taking the oil out of the ground:confused::confused:

    Huh?

    Why would the oil companies pay tax on a product that you use?

    Plastic bag manufacturers don't pay the 22c levy on bags.

    If they pick up a tax tab they will obviously have to add it onto the cost of the product. If you think they are making a lot of an liter of fuel you are WAY off the mark. The fuel business is about absolutely tiny margins on huge volume.


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