A way to sidestep the 4c carbon tax

Saab Ed

One last thing, whats a CEL?

JHMEG

Saab Ed wrote: »

One last thing, whats a CEL?

Check Engine Light

Saab Ed

JHMEG wrote: »

Check Engine Light

I had a moment :P:D

JHMEG

Saab Ed wrote: »

I had a moment :P:D

LOL. Maybe not everyone calls them CEL. Maybe a more common name is MIL. I'm just used to CEL.

vectra

Simpler solution is just go and buy a diesel car... save lots on fuel

Esel

Very interesting thread, thanks (also read Matt's thread from here).

A quick question: any opinion on the pros and cons of trying say an E20 mix in a 1997 2L auto Accord (F20B3 engine, sohc, non-vtech)?

JHMEG

esel wrote: »

Very interesting thread, thanks (also read Matt's thread from here).

A quick question: any opinion on the pros and cons of trying say an E20 mix in a 1997 2L auto Accord (F20B3 engine, sohc, non-vtech)?

Start small, 10%, and work up. Keep notes and calculations. I wouldn't see any issue with 20%.

Matt Simis

JHMEG wrote: »

Start small, 10%, and work up. Keep notes and calculations. I wouldn't see any issue with 20%.

Good to see you are still experimenting JHMEG!

I tried a 50%'ish mix (50:50 - E5:E85, not 50% ethanol) on the BMW 530i. It did generate a CEL (O2 sensor outside adaptation) and did seem a bit more perky (it needs it..) but mpg plummeted. Went from 29 to 21mpg, same trips. Ill try a smaller mix, but I estimate at around a 15% mix (as I was "flushing" it with petrol, hard to say) it was returning 24mpg instead of 29, so still not wonderful, but more experimentation needed.
CEL went away at 35% mix (approx).


And just to reiterate an earlier point, you dont have to drive to 2 different stations or pumps, you can use both E5 and E85 nozzles at one pump and they just charge you for both. They really didnt seem to care.

demag

I'm running my van on pure veg oil, no carbon tax on that.

Hellrazer

Brilliant thread Jhmeg.
Like yourself Im in Maynooth and that Maxol is my local station aswell.
20-25 euro does me for most of the week--Maynooth to Dublin 200 miles per week + whatever mileage I do after that.
I`ll be giving it a go with the Accent this weekend.

What would you reckon would be the best mix to start out with?

And one more suggestion:
Would anyone have a chart (or be able to make a chart) with the percentages that different mixes would give?
Might make it easy for those willing to try it out.

For every 4.5 litres of unleaded add in 1 litre of E85 into your tank. That'll give you 18% of a mix of E85 (15.5% to 19.5% ethanol depending on your unleaded).

Matt Simis

demag wrote: »

I'm running my van on pure veg oil, no carbon tax on that.

If you buy new, clean Veg Oil it will cost you the same as Diesel will it not!?

JHMEG

Matt Simis wrote: »

If you buy new, clean Veg Oil it will cost you the same as Diesel will it not!?

Maybe. But it still has no carbon tax!

Interesting about your O2 sensor. Afaik I have a wideband sensor as the car runs up to about 26:1 (air:fuel) at times. Will be interesting to see how other people get on.

macplaxton

macplaxton wrote: »

+1

Personally I would like to buy proper 100% petrol, but then I don't run anything modern.

The mixture is actually a much better fuel with a higher octane than our crap 95ron unleaded.

JHMEG

Astrid Plain Bargain wrote: »

The mixture is actually a much better fuel with a higher octane than our crap 95ron unleaded.

In addition the EU have mandated that up to 5% biofuel (ie ethanol) is permissable at the moment, and that will be increasing to 10%, without a need to inform the customer.

Soon enough you could be running 10% without being aware of it!

macplaxton

Astrid Plain Bargain wrote: »

The mixture is actually a much better fuel with a higher octane than our crap 95ron unleaded.

Agree it has a higher octane, but the mix wouldn't necessarily be better for older vehicles with incompatible materials in the fuel system.

macplaxton

JHMEG wrote: »

In addition the EU have mandated that up to 5% biofuel (ie ethanol) is permissable at the moment, and that will be increasing to 10%, without a need to inform the customer.

Soon enough you could be running 10% without being aware of it!

I am aware of that, and that's plain wrong. I should be informed as to what I'm actually putting in my car. In the UK, Shell Optimax is guaranteed to have no ethanol in it.

itarumaa

Why there are serious concerns about that 10% biofuel in Finnish media and talks about that some cars might not accept that, if it is so safe to try these things.

So I would not try things like this in my car to save couple of euros, but sure, trust a unknown person in the internet, it is a safe way to go:)

How can you make sure that you don´t have any issues in the future?

JHMEG

macplaxton wrote: »

In the UK, Shell Optimax is guaranteed to have no ethanol in it.

Optimax is a product, so it's guaranteed to have whatever they say it has. Unleaded is a generic term with no specific formula.

Bottom line is if you don't want to experiment with ethanol in your car, then don't!

Hoffmans

shouldnt the fat cat oil companies be picking up this tax tab after all they are the ones taking the oil out of the ground

Bandara

Hoffmans wrote: »

shouldnt the fat cat oil companies be picking up this tax tab after all they are the ones taking the oil out of the ground

Huh?

Why would the oil companies pay tax on a product that you use?

Plastic bag manufacturers don't pay the 22c levy on bags.

If they pick up a tax tab they will obviously have to add it onto the cost of the product. If you think they are making a lot of an liter of fuel you are WAY off the mark. The fuel business is about absolutely tiny margins on huge volume.

JHMEG

Hammertime wrote: »

If you think they are making a lot of an liter of fuel you are WAY off the mark. The fuel business is about absolutely tiny margins on huge volume.

I'm not suggesting they should be picking up this tax but in fairness the oil companies have been posting record corporate profits for the last several years. Bit like the David Begg and the budget, they are the super rich and some would say they should pay more (not me tho, I'm a pure capitalist).

Bandara

JHMEG wrote: »

I'm not suggesting they should be picking up this tax but in fairness the oil companies have been posting record corporate profits for the last several years. Bit like the David Begg and the budget, they are the super rich and some would say they should pay more (not me tho, I'm a pure capitalist).

hey, I'm not arguing that oil companies don't make big bucks, but its not made of the retailing the end product to the consumer.

The profits of a company like Maxol would shock you they are so small in proportion to their turnover, it really is incredibly tight.

The big big boys like the BP's etc make mega cash, but the % of that comign from their forecourt side of the business is tiny.

Hoffmans

yeah right on....jr and bobby made a packet from the oil they paid their taxes tho jr got shot in the end......

carbon levy = veiled excise

say ya had 100 cows in a field they release a lot of co2 yeah#
and near the gate is a little field mouse he farts and releases a great deal less,
this is how our emissions add up: we are the mouse ,china,usa india, and many more are the cows we dont mean f**k so why tax it???

macplaxton

JHMEG wrote: »

Optimax is a product, so it's guaranteed to have whatever they say it has. Unleaded is a generic term with no specific formula.

Bottom line is if you don't want to experiment with ethanol in your car, then don't!

True, but UL with a 5% ethanol mix still complies with EN 228, so I can't avoid if they don't have to label it as such.

(I should add a correction. Optimax was re-branded V-Power a while ago )

Dartz

JHMEG wrote: »

100% will probably run, but with the CEL on. With the CEL on the ECU is running open loop and the car will drink fuel. It also may not actually run that well either.

You won't do any damage to the fuelling system.

As I said, start small (10%) and work up. (Just don't start at E85 in on top of an empty tank.) Keep records and do your maths. 10% to 20% for me as much as makes no difference, but by 30% there is a difference. I have run at 50% but have had pretty bad fuel economy. The weather turned cold at the same time so I'm not sure which is to blame. Further investigation is required.

Where did I hear, that E85 ruins the oxygen sensors?

JHMEG

Dartz wrote: »

Where did I hear, that E85 ruins the oxygen sensors?

I don't know. I never heard anything along those lines. A lot ot myths exist tho.

wikipedia wrote:

no change in the exhaust manifold oxygen sensor is required when burning higher percentages of ethanol. This also means that the catalytic converter on the non-FFV burning ethanol mixed with gasoline is not being stressed by the presence of too much oxygen in the exhaust, which would otherwise reduce catalytic converter operating life.

daveharnett

JHMEG wrote: »

I'm not suggesting they should be picking up this tax but in fairness the oil companies have been posting record corporate profits for the last several years. Bit like the David Begg and the budget, they are the super rich and some would say they should pay more (not me tho, I'm a pure capitalist).

This is all very fuzzy. For a start, as others have said, the margins are tiny. If BP et al suspended bonuses and dividends, it would maybe reduce prices at the pump by .1c?
Not to mention that any saving you made at the pump would probably be cancelled out by the drop in the value of your pension as share value fell.

Hoffmans wrote: »

say ya had 100 cows in a field they release a lot of co2 yeah#
and near the gate is a little field mouse he farts and releases a great deal less,
this is how our emissions add up: we are the mouse ,china,usa india, and many more are the cows we dont mean f**k so why tax it???

So what you're saying is that small countries should get to do whatever they like, is that it? Because that's boll*cks

JHMEG

daveharnett wrote: »

This is all very fuzzy. For a start, as others have said, the margins are tiny. If BP et al suspended bonuses and dividends, it would maybe reduce prices at the pump by .1c?

I wasn't disagreeing.

But have a look here:
http://www.pumps.ie/pricesExplained.php

Oil company/distributor is getting about 37c a litre. I'd wager they could get half that and still make a profit.

daveharnett

JHMEG wrote: »

I wasn't disagreeing.

But have a look here:
http://www.pumps.ie/pricesExplained.php

Oil company/distributor is getting about 37c a litre. I'd wager they could get half that and still make a profit.

Bear in mind that he 37c mentioned there includes:
- buying rights to look for the oil
- finding the oil (a very expensive lottery)
- buying rights to the oil (up front and/or per litre)
- drilling and pumping the oil (a rig costs up to $400m, and roughnecks aren't cheap)
- shipping the oil
- refining the oil
- mixing in clever additives
- storing the petrol
- shipping the petrol
- running a massive multinational organisation (salaries, premises, taxes, legal, advertising, r&d, sponsorship (motorsport, politics;)) and what have you)

When you consider that farmers get about 20c for extracting a litre of milk from a cow, 37c/l for all of the above strikes me as pretty phenomenal. For the government to come along and take twice as much for no work must seem pretty galling. No wonder they're such c*nts.

JHMEG

Exxon made $40 billion profit in 2008, the biggest profit ever recorded by a US company.

Shell made $31 billion profit in 2008, a record for a British company.

I'd say that gives them scope for flexible pricing.