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Referendum to change constitution to secularize state fully

2456

Comments

  • #32
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The better solution would be to open secular schools that teach about all religions (This is the case for all secondary schools at the moment with JC religion). Secular Primary schools that taught children about major world religions just as secondary school religion would be suitable in todays Ireland. That is not to say denominational schools should be shut down e.t.c. but they should co-exist and choice should be available.

    OR

    Don't teach religion at all and leave it up to the people who should be responsible for teaching it? (Parents/priests/shaman/whatever)

    I'd go one further and say children shouldn't be exposed to religion at all. But will leave that for another day :pac:


  • #33
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    louisa200 wrote: »
    I am sorry my number nine post seemed for some to bring down proceedings, however I have three children, and I have a legal obligation to send them to school, and the state should have a legal obligation to eductate my children, minus religion...
    Educate together can do it....
    No church should have an influence on schooling imo... faith should be learned from church and home, not school........... school should be about learning everything, not just one thing, and pushing it and pushing it and pushing it... my son says the lords prayer three times an ffin day.. wtf is that teaching him?????
    The Catholic church should have nothing to do with the eductaion of our children.. and should not be funded by the state to do so, it is fundamentally wrong............
    Just send in a note saying you do not want him to participate in religious activities of any kind.


  • #34
    Plowman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Plowman


    This post has been deleted.


  • #35
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    o1s1n wrote: »
    OR

    Don't teach religion at all and leave it up to the people who should be responsible for teaching it? (Parents/priests/shaman/whatever)

    I'd go one further and say children shouldn't be exposed to religion at all. But will leave that for another day :pac:
    So children of those indifferent to religion should grow up completely unaware of any religions? That does not bode well for tolerance.


  • #36
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Instead we should have a pledges of alligences to the state, and images of our leaders in the classroom? No thanks, the state seems to gathering too much power to regulate as is.


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  • #37
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Just send in a note saying you do not want him to participate in religious activities of any kind.

    The main point being though, he shouldn't have to.

    My parents sent in such a note for me yet I was still hounded by the chaplain and teachers to go to the masses. Had a pretty major altercation with one of them when I refused to go and there was nobody to stay back and monitor the 'heathen non christian kids'. Neither of us should have been put in that position.


  • #38
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    So children of those indifferent to religion should grow up completely unaware of any religions? That does not bode well for tolerance.

    Parents who wish to raise their children indifferent to religion should have the same rights to do so as parents who wish to raise their children in a religion.


  • #39
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    o1s1n wrote: »
    The main point being though, he shouldn't have to.

    My parents sent in such a note for me yet I was still hounded by the chaplain and teachers to go to the masses. Had a pretty major altercation with one of them when I refused to go and there was nobody to stay back and monitor the 'heathen non christian kids'. Neither of us should have been put in that position.
    Yes if there was a secular school available that taught of all world religions it would have suited you better.
    o1s1n wrote: »
    Parents who wish to raise their children indifferent to religion should have the same rights to do so as parents who wish to raise their children in a religion.
    Yes but what is wrong with learning about all the world religions in a secular school?


  • #40
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    There is no way any of my kids are going to a school influenced by the church in Rome.
    My parents thought I wouldn't be able to do it - but I stuck to my guns.
    They are now starting to attend a non-religious school.

    "Educate Together" schools - best thing in Irish education today!
    ...and guess what, the FF fcuks are dragging their heels about funding them. I wonder why! :rolleyes:


  • #41
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Yes if there was a secular school available that taught of all world religions it would have suited you better.


    Yes but what is wrong with learning about all the world religions in a secular school?

    Religious studies as an option, similar to other optional subjects would be fine with me. As long as people are making a choice to partake in it rather than right now where they have to make a choice to opt out.


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  • #42
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,043 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    http://www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf

    First thing to do is get rid of the preample, it is the introduction to the constitution and is part of the over all document and court decision have been made citing that to back them up.

    Who many people have read it?

    http://www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf
    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN

    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
    We, the people of Éire,
    Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
    Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
    And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
    Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.


  • #43
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ^^ What relevance does that have to the working of peoples lives? I mean why is that so urgent to go rather than the issues that people have concerning matters in day to day life?


  • #44
    jumpguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Yes but what is wrong with learning about all the world religions in a secular school?
    Because you don't. In a secular school, you're more likely to learn about the religion the school is owned by. In my catholic primary school (which I liked very much, and I never cared about the religion that owned it at the time) we only learned about Christianity in religion class. I didn't mind that...but there was no other world religions talked about.


  • #45
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    So children of those indifferent to religion should grow up completely unaware of any religions? That does not bode well for tolerance.

    Two of my four kids now are going to a non religion based school (the other two not old enough yet).
    They meet ALL races and nationalities.
    They get to meet them as people irrespective of religion, skin colour or language.
    They get to like them as human beings not a religious status painted on them from the start.
    What is so wrong with that??? It ruddy bodes VERY well for tolerance!
    They get to know the person from the beginning - not the automatic typecast!
    o1s1n wrote: »
    Parents who wish to raise their children indifferent to religion should have the same rights to do so as parents who wish to raise their children in a religion.

    Absolutely!


  • #46
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,043 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    louisa200 wrote: »
    I am sorry my number nine post seemed for some to bring down proceedings, however I have three children, and I have a legal obligation to send them to school,

    Nope you don't have to send them to school, you have legal obligation to educate them and the constitution says parents are the primary teachers of children and as long as the kids pass the dept of eduction's tests each year you are totally entitled to home school them.
    louisa200 wrote: »
    and the state should have a legal obligation to eductate my children, minus religion...

    And the state is in breach of UN directives on this.
    louisa200 wrote: »
    Educate together can do it....

    They are multi denominational they each a bit about all religions but do not instruct or indoctrinate like catholic schools do.

    louisa200 wrote: »
    No church should have an influence on schooling imo... faith should be learned from church and home, not school........... school should be about learning everything, not just one thing, and pushing it and pushing it and pushing it... my son says the lords prayer three times an ffin day.. wtf is that teaching him?????
    The Catholic church should have nothing to do with the eductaion of our children.. and should not be funded by the state to do so, it is fundamentally wrong............

    The state funds all school the same but refused to take on the patronage/responsibility of the schools and I agree to have 3,000 of the 3,200 primary school having crucifixes in them daily prayers and art and other subjects laced with christian religious teaching is frankly wrong in this day and age.


  • #47
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,043 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Jakkass wrote: »
    ^^ What relevance does that have to the working of peoples lives? I mean why is that so urgent to go rather than the issues that people have concerning matters in day to day life?

    It sets the tone for our constitution from which all our rights and laws come from and has been used to say we are a christian nation first and foremost.


  • #48
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The state funds all school the same but refused to take on the patronage/responsibility of the schools and I agree to have 3,000 of the 3,200 primary school having crucifixes in them daily prayers and art and other subjects laced with christian religious teaching is frankly wrong in this day and age.

    I wouldn't say that it is wrong, but there should be adequate alternatives. It's certainly never wrong to teach a child about religion if it is agreed to by parents irrespective of what "day and age" it is.

    I especially don't get what on earth is offensive about crucifixes, and the latest EU ruling concerning Italy is utter lunacy. I don't remember any as I was being educated, but I don't see what the big deal is.


  • #49
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Biggins wrote: »
    "Educate Together" schools - best thing in Irish education today!

    Hadn't heard of this before. Had a quick look at the list, there are over a dozen counties represented there, some in rural(ish) areas. So it's not just a city thing

    Seems to be expanding anyway.


  • #50
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,043 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    They majority of new school start ups in the country for the last 10 years have been educate together schools, they are a charity and the schools are put together by a collective of parents who work to make the school happen.


  • #51
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    The Humanist Association of Ireland has made a number of submissions to government on the topic, most relevant being the Equality for the Non Religious document.


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  • #52
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    mikemac wrote: »
    Hadn't heard of this before. Had a quick look at the list, there are over a dozen counties represented there, some in rural(ish) areas. So it's not just a city thing

    Seems to be expanding anyway.

    They are trying. It run by well qualified people who are dedicated to a new Irish education system regardless of status, cast, religion and ability to pay.
    If only they were funded more by the government as the RC schools are. :(
    (we even have to supply our kids at the school with toilet roll too - the state funding is that bad or non-existant)

    Gawd knows we need more schools and fast!


  • #53
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    jumpguy wrote: »
    Because you don't. In a secular school, you're more likely to learn about the religion the school is owned by. In my catholic primary school (which I liked very much, and I never cared about the religion that owned it at the time) we only learned about Christianity in religion class. I didn't mind that...but there was no other world religions talked about.
    In a secular school, the school is not owned by any religion. Thats what secular means, sure you did your JC last year like me, how the hell did you forget already? :pac:

    Biggins wrote: »
    Two of my four kids now are going to a non religion based school (the other two not old enough yet).
    They meet ALL races and nationalities.
    They get to meet them as people irrespective of religion, skin colour or language.
    They get to like them as human beings not a religious status painted on them from the start.
    What is so wrong with that??? It ruddy bodes VERY well for tolerance!
    They get to know the person from the beginning - not the automatic typecast!



    Absolutely!
    The more educated you are of other religions the less likely it is you will be intolerant of other religions (Or lack of religion). Religion (Well atleast in the JC) is not all about world religions, there is philosphy and morality along with explanations of atheism and agnosticism e.t.c., obviously this wouldn't suit primary school but basic aspects should be taught along with ALL major world religions. I don't see any benefits from not teaching about any religion in schools. The best solution as I said is the creation of secular primary schools which teach religion as its done in secondary schools (Teaching all of the major world religions along with the other subsections such as philosphy and morality)


  • #54
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that it is wrong, but there should be adequate alternatives. It's certainly never wrong to teach a child about religion if it is agreed to by parents irrespective of what "day and age" it is.

    I especially don't get what on earth is offensive about crucifixes, and the latest EU ruling concerning Italy is utter lunacy. I don't remember any as I was being educated, but I don't see what the big deal is.

    Interestingly the town where the complaint about the crucifix originated got near flattened this year in the earthquake.
    A devastating combination of nature and neglect flattened the city of LAquila, Italy.

    http://www.helium.com/items/1421307-laquila-earthquake-causes-of-laquila-earthquake-deaths-why-was-death-toll-so-high-in-laquila

    Too busy complaining about the crucifix to bother fixing their city......


  • #55
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    So children of those indifferent to religion should grow up completely unaware of any religions? That does not bode well for tolerance.

    There is a big difference between teaching children about religion and teaching children that one particular religion is the right one. Of course its the right of parents to teach their children that a particular religion is the right one; the question is, should our state education system promote this?


  • #56
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The more educated you are of other religions the less likely it is you will be intolerant of other religions (Or lack of religion).

    I disagree. The more educated you are about the person - not the religion - you more less you are likely to be quicker to typecast them then into a "class" later and see it then as just bad.

    My kids see the person first - not the religious base or face first!


  • #57
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    dvpower wrote: »
    There is a big difference between teaching children about religion and teaching children that one particular religion is the right one. Of course its the right of parents to teach their children that a particular religion is the right one; the question is, should our state education system promote this?
    I never said anything anything to the contrary. The state should create more secular schools as not everyone is catholic, nor indeed christian nor even religious in general. These secular schools should teach children about all religions. The current denominational schools could either sell to state or simply coexist with the secular schools.
    What is wrong with that?


  • #58
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Manach wrote: »
    Instead we should have a pledges of alligences to the state, and images of our leaders in the classroom? No thanks, the state seems to gathering too much power to regulate as is.

    True enough. We all know what the outcome can be when an organisation gets too much unchecked power to regulate us.


  • #59
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Biggins wrote: »
    I disagree. The more educated you are about the person - not the religion - you more less you are likely to be quicker to typecast them then into a "class" later and see it then as just bad.

    My kids see the person first - not the religious base or face first!
    Your children might as you are a good parent. Not everyone is a good parent and may judge people by religion/class e.t.c rather than character.

    But what exactly is the issue with teaching children religion as it is done in the JC for example? You learn about all the world religions, morality, basic philosphy and the meaning of views such as humanism, secularism, atheism and agnosticism e.t.c.? What is the harm in that?


  • #60
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Your children might as you are a good parent. Not everyone is a good parent and may judge people by religion/class e.t.c rather than character.

    But what exactly is the issue with teaching children religion as it is done in the JC for example? You learn about all the world religions, morality, basic philosphy and the meaning of views such as humanism, secularism, atheism and agnosticism e.t.c.? What is the harm in that?

    Absolutely none and all religions could be mentioned as part of other lessons based around learning about countries.

    You also right - not all parents are good but if the children from day one at a non-religious based school see in persons of other faiths IN A NEUTRAL ESTABLISHMENT they are more likely hopefully to see for themselves that all that is indoctrinated into them (wrongly) behind their own front doors, in not necessarily the case.

    The E.T. schools are about learning about the person first - not the status.


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  • #61
    louisa200
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭louisa200


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Nope you don't have to send them to school, you have legal obligation to educate them and the constitution says parents are the primary teachers of children and as long as the kids pass the dept of eduction's tests each year you are totally entitled to home school them.



    And the state is in breach of UN directives on this.

    The state funds all school the same but refused to take on the patronage/responsibility of the schools and I agree to have 3,000 of the 3,200 primary school having crucifixes in them daily prayers and art and other subjects laced with christian religious teaching is frankly wrong in this day and age.
    They are multi denominational they each a bit about all religions but do not instruct or indoctrinate like catholic schools do.

    i am not sure wether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me lol, but that is saturday night for ya and a bottle of proseccoo.... I dont want to home school my three children as i wish the to be socialised with peers. My son attended educate together and yes it was good, however the class sizes were so huge he was lost, and i had to move so had no choice... as much as i would like to home school I just cant, but would prefer my son and daughters were taught about life itself, humanity, not just one religion but all, so I try to do that at home as much as i can without taking the piss out of his re book which is quite hilarious in its ways of indocrtination ( reminds me of them jehova witness magazines) anyway, i dont think primary education should be mixed with religion, thats all xx


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