Referendum to change constitution to secularize state fully

Jaeger 90

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools (which will cause terrible segregation in future years) to religious figures in management in public hospitals and of course our world famous blasphemy law.

There needs to be an article that specifically forbids any sort of religious influence on state run operations or public money to go through any religious organization.

I know the church bashing got some steam this week, but I'm not jumping on this bandwagon, I've taught this all my life. Why do we stand for it, I'd imagine an overwhelming majority in favour of this.

partyatmygaff

I can't see this ending well.

Sleepy

Definitely in favour of a complete segregation of church and state. Can't see it passing a referendum in Ireland for at least 50 years though (far too many of the ignorant generations of Irish people still alive).

aDeener

Jaeger 90 wrote: »

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools (which will cause terrible segregation in future years) to religious figures in management in public hospitals and of course our world famous blasphemy law.

There needs to be an article that specifically forbids any sort of religious influence on state run operations or public money to go through any religious organization.

I know the church bashing got some steam this week, but I'm not jumping on this bandwagon, I've taught this all my life. Why do we stand for it, I'd imagine an overwhelming majority in favour of this.

ho ho yes you are, why are you only coming out with it now?

i went to a catholic secondary school, received a brilliant education, had the time of my life. wouldnt have wanted it any other way

Max Power1

Sleepy wrote: »

Definitely in favour of a complete segregation of church and state. Can't see it passing a referendum in Ireland for at least 50 years though (far too many of the ignorant generations of Irish people still alive).

+1

Couldnt agree more tbh. When this generation of older 60+ die off, we may actually get some logical advances in this country. Separation of church and state would be to the forefront of those advances.

themont85

Jaeger 90 wrote: »

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools (which will cause terrible segregation in future years) to religious figures in management in public hospitals and of course our world famous blasphemy law.

There needs to be an article that specifically forbids any sort of religious influence on state run operations or public money to go through any religious organization.

I know the church bashing got some steam this week, but I'm not jumping on this bandwagon, I've taught this all my life. Why do we stand for it, I'd imagine an overwhelming majority in favour of this.

There is state funded Protestant schools too...

Why do we stand for it? Because the religous orders were the only ones willing to educate and help the sick for a considerable amount of time. They own a significant amount of land too which the state has benefitted from for decades.

Jaeger 90

themont85 wrote: »

There is state funded Protestant schools too...

Why do we stand for it? Because the religous orders were the only ones willing to educate and help the sick for a considerable amount of time. They own a significant amount of land too which the state has benefitted from for decades.

No NO, Its the peoples land, taken by the church, who were the powers to be back in the day. the state has to pay rent to the church for what really should be public land morally anyway.

How's that benefiting?

jhegarty

Jaeger 90 wrote: »

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools (which will cause terrible segregation in future years) to religious figures in management in public hospitals and of course our world famous blasphemy law.

There needs to be an article that specifically forbids any sort of religious influence on state run operations or public money to go through any religious organization.

I know the church bashing got some steam this week, but I'm not jumping on this bandwagon, I've taught this all my life. Why do we stand for it, I'd imagine an overwhelming majority in favour of this.

Who is going to run the schools now, you ?

(it's not going to be the government , they are broke).

louisa200

I agree.. I think it is disgraceful that my son can only go to a catholic school, there are no other options unless i want to do a round trip of 2 hours and put him in a class of 32 children.. no church should have any say in eductaion. it is subtle indoctrination and they have no place now having anything to do with children atall............
How can an organistation who have abused children for years and years and years still run and influence our childrens education.. my children need to learnt to read and write and do sums, they do not need to be educated in any one specific religion, especially not by the one religion who have abused hundreds if not thousands of children and pretty much got off scot free, they should be removed, the catholic church should not pass guarda clearance and thus should have nothing to do with our childrens education...... never mind actually running the schools and indocrtinating them every day.....

partyatmygaff

louisa200 wrote: »

I agree.. I think it is disgraceful that my son can only go to a catholic school, there are no other options unless i want to do a round trip of 2 hours and put him in a class of 32 children.. no church should have any say in eductaion. it is subtle indoctrination and they have no place now having anything to do with children atall............
How can an organistation who have abused children for years and years and years still run and influence our childrens education.. my children need to learnt to read and write and do sums, they do not need to be educated in any one specific religion, especially not by the one religion who have abused hundreds if not thousands of children and pretty much got off scot free, they should be removed, the catholic church should not pass guarda clearance and thus should have nothing to do with our childrens education...... never mind actually running the schools and indocrtinating them every day.....

Post #9 and we are going downhill already.

mikemac

Jaeger 90 wrote: »

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools

Are you going to apply this to all schools?
There are Protestant schools, I'm picking that example as it was in the news over the last few weeks.
As an another example, if there were Jewish or Muslim schools in Ireland would you target them? If they aren't there now they probably will be some day

philologos

I don't think getting rid of ethos based education is going to be the great thing that everyone thinks it will be.

Personally I'm glad that I benefited from one. I didn't realise the value of it until my final two years in secondary school when I started to believe and read the Bible for the first time. School facilitated me to a minor extent in that journey, particularly when I was studying Leaving Cert Religion.

So in that respect I don't know if it is such a good idea to get rid of them all. Providing secular schools along ones with religious ethos by all means. Denying people the same opportunity as I had? I don't know. Then again, I think I would have found my way without it.

For context: I went to CofI ethos schools for primary and secondary.

Jaeger 90

mikemac wrote: »

Are you going to apply this to all schools?
There are Protestant schools, I'm picking that example as it was in the news over the last few weeks.
As an another example, if there were Jewish or Muslim schools in Ireland would you target them? If they aren't there now they probably will be some day

Of course there still could be private run religious schools (which religion is irrelevant) , however all state funded school should be 100% secular, that's my point

a5y

aDeener wrote: »

ho ho yes you are, why are you only coming out with it now?

Paul McGennis was convicted in 1997. Ivan Payne was convicted in 1998.

"Jumping on the bandwagon?" Try better late than never.

jumpguy

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Post #9 and we are going downhill already.

How so? OMG DEBATE!!!


Anyway, I think that if most schools are run by an organisation...which has had a history of abusing children, then for the sake of the parents, the teachers and the schools it shouldn't be. Then again, Bertie Ahern has evidence of dubious money reciepts and he still sits in the Dáil earning a TD's salary. So, the country is still abit backward. Also, with the country getting filled with immigrants of different religions, it makes more sense. It also means that whatever is to be thought, is thought. There is no bias or prejudice...such an important asset like education should only be in the hands of the state.

I think a referendum would be a great...clearly the people of this country are questioning it.

bleg

Copy france. Complete and utter segregation.

Naikon

I would support this motive. The catholic church is holding
this country back. This negative publicity is an eye opener.

Morals do not come from old men in dresses, morals are
coded into our DNA. People who don't believe the rubbish
should opt out by formal defection. I have.

I have been atheist for a few years, but have been considered lapsed.
More people who don't believe the rubbish should opt out formally.

It may not be pretty but death == the end!

philologos

bleg wrote: »

Copy france. Complete and utter segregation.

France denies people the freedom to express themselves by wearing a headscarf, or a turban. It's definitely not anything I would want to have here in Ireland.

France goes beyond state secularism, it verges into denying people's personal freedoms.

Victor

I'm guessing that power hungry secular paedophiles are loving this outrage.

Be careful what you wish for.

o1s1n

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think getting rid of ethos based education is going to be the great thing that everyone thinks it will be.

Personally I'm glad that I benefited from one. I didn't realise the value of it until my final two years in secondary school when I started to believe and read the Bible for the first time. School facilitated me to a minor extent in that journey, particularly when I was studying Leaving Cert Religion.

So in that respect I don't know if it is such a good idea to get rid of them all. Providing secular schools along ones with religious ethos by all means. Denying people the same opportunity as I had? I don't know. Then again, I think I would have found my way without it.

For context: I went to CofI ethos schools for primary and secondary.

I think it's great that you used it to your benefit. However there are a lot of children out there and young adults attending these schools who either have no interest in this particular belief or are too easily persuaded by it to challege it. There are others who practice other faiths and come away feeling slightly ostracized.

If it's secularised it will mean that everyone in school is equal. No belief is given preference.

Those who wish to persue a specific faith can do it on their own time like yourself.

I really don't see any down side to this at all.

Naikon

o1s1n wrote: »

I think it's great that you used it to your benefit. However there are a lot of children out there and young adults attending these schools who either have no interest in this particular belief or are too easily persuaded by it to challege it. There are others who practice other faiths and come away feeling slightly ostracized.

If it's secularised it will mean that everyone in school is equal. No belief is given preference.

Those who wish to persue a specific faith can do it on their own time like yourself.

I really don't see any down side to this at all.

Employers are bordering on my personal freedoms by
not allowing me to wear "Fcuk working" to the workplace.

How the Christ religion expects to be treated differently because
it is deemed super offensive to question the beliefs is beyond me.

Non religious people tend not to blow up planes though:)

partyatmygaff

The better solution would be to open secular schools that teach about all religions (This is the case for all secondary schools at the moment with JC religion). Secular Primary schools that taught children about major world religions just as secondary school religion would be suitable in todays Ireland. That is not to say denominational schools should be shut down e.t.c. but they should co-exist and choice should be available.

Jaeger 90

Victor wrote: »

I'm guessing that power hungry secular paedophiles are loving this outrage.

Be careful what you wish for.

I deliberately didn't mention pedophilia in my argument because I knew it would cheapen it, a tactic papers like the sun would use to rally the braindead and its what your trying to use against me now.

Its another good reason to, but its not the only reason.

I think it should be this way anyway, regardless of whether priests molest kids or not.

philologos

Naikon wrote: »

Non religious people tend not to blow up planes though:)

That's such a snide remark.

I could by this reasoning that atheists have butchered over 100 million people in the 20th century, but of course this doesn't cover most atheists.

Let's be honest and fair.

Naikon

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The better solution would be to open secular schools that teach about all religions (This is the case for all secondary schools at the moment with JC religion). Secular Primary schools that taught children about major world religions just as secondary school religion would be suitable in todays Ireland. That is not to say denominational schools should be shut down e.t.c. but they should co-exist and choice should be available.

No, they are all a load of bollocks. Children should not be
subjected to that crap at such a young age.

Why should people be forced to "respect" religion? That's the
sentiment that has lead us to the state we are in regarding religion
and the state.

A complete overhaul with no religious dogma is the only
way to go forward. Everything else is half assed.

Davidius

I went to a 'non-denominational school'. They still insisted on having some service yolk around Christmas and when the Pope died. :pac:

Naikon

Jakkass wrote: »

That's such a snide remark.

I could by this reasoning that atheists have butchered over 100 million people in the 20th century, but of course this doesn't cover most atheists.

Let's be honest and fair.

Ok fair enough, but you can't deny religion has caused
great suffering throughout history.

From the Inquisition to 9/11, Religion has accounted for
some of the worst atrocities ever.

partyatmygaff

Naikon wrote: »

No, they are all a load of bollocks. Children should not be
subjected to that crap at such a young age.

Why should people be forced to "respect" religion? That's the
sentiment that has lead us to the state we are in regarding religion
and the state.

A complete overhaul with no religious dogma is the only
way to go forward. Everything else is half assed.

Your opinion, Its not the opinion of every single person in Ireland and you are not the only person in Ireland. Children need to learn about all the religions of the world.

partyatmygaff

Naikon wrote: »

Ok fair enough, but you can't deny religion has caused
great suffering throughout history.

From the Inquisition to 9/11, Religion has accounted for
some of the worst atrocities ever.

The inquistion was the work of power hungry men and has no basis in the religion itself. Just another way man has hurt man.

philologos

Naikon: Religion has brought good and bad. Bad implentations of religion end up bad. Good implementations of religion end up good. The same is true of atheism.

I agree entirely with the sentiments of partyatmygaff in his last post.

louisa200

I am sorry my number nine post seemed for some to bring down proceedings, however I have three children, and I have a legal obligation to send them to school, and the state should have a legal obligation to eductate my children, minus religion...
Educate together can do it....
No church should have an influence on schooling imo... faith should be learned from church and home, not school........... school should be about learning everything, not just one thing, and pushing it and pushing it and pushing it... my son says the lords prayer three times an ffin day.. wtf is that teaching him?????
The Catholic church should have nothing to do with the eductaion of our children.. and should not be funded by the state to do so, it is fundamentally wrong............

o1s1n

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The better solution would be to open secular schools that teach about all religions (This is the case for all secondary schools at the moment with JC religion). Secular Primary schools that taught children about major world religions just as secondary school religion would be suitable in todays Ireland. That is not to say denominational schools should be shut down e.t.c. but they should co-exist and choice should be available.

OR

Don't teach religion at all and leave it up to the people who should be responsible for teaching it? (Parents/priests/shaman/whatever)

I'd go one further and say children shouldn't be exposed to religion at all. But will leave that for another day :pac:

partyatmygaff

louisa200 wrote: »

I am sorry my number nine post seemed for some to bring down proceedings, however I have three children, and I have a legal obligation to send them to school, and the state should have a legal obligation to eductate my children, minus religion...
Educate together can do it....
No church should have an influence on schooling imo... faith should be learned from church and home, not school........... school should be about learning everything, not just one thing, and pushing it and pushing it and pushing it... my son says the lords prayer three times an ffin day.. wtf is that teaching him?????
The Catholic church should have nothing to do with the eductaion of our children.. and should not be funded by the state to do so, it is fundamentally wrong............

Just send in a note saying you do not want him to participate in religious activities of any kind.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

partyatmygaff

o1s1n wrote: »

OR

Don't teach religion at all and leave it up to the people who should be responsible for teaching it? (Parents/priests/shaman/whatever)

I'd go one further and say children shouldn't be exposed to religion at all. But will leave that for another day :pac:

So children of those indifferent to religion should grow up completely unaware of any religions? That does not bode well for tolerance.

Manach

Instead we should have a pledges of alligences to the state, and images of our leaders in the classroom? No thanks, the state seems to gathering too much power to regulate as is.

o1s1n

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Just send in a note saying you do not want him to participate in religious activities of any kind.

The main point being though, he shouldn't have to.

My parents sent in such a note for me yet I was still hounded by the chaplain and teachers to go to the masses. Had a pretty major altercation with one of them when I refused to go and there was nobody to stay back and monitor the 'heathen non christian kids'. Neither of us should have been put in that position.

o1s1n

partyatmygaff wrote: »

So children of those indifferent to religion should grow up completely unaware of any religions? That does not bode well for tolerance.

Parents who wish to raise their children indifferent to religion should have the same rights to do so as parents who wish to raise their children in a religion.

partyatmygaff

o1s1n wrote: »

The main point being though, he shouldn't have to.

My parents sent in such a note for me yet I was still hounded by the chaplain and teachers to go to the masses. Had a pretty major altercation with one of them when I refused to go and there was nobody to stay back and monitor the 'heathen non christian kids'. Neither of us should have been put in that position.

Yes if there was a secular school available that taught of all world religions it would have suited you better.

o1s1n wrote: »

Parents who wish to raise their children indifferent to religion should have the same rights to do so as parents who wish to raise their children in a religion.

Yes but what is wrong with learning about all the world religions in a secular school?

Biggins

There is no way any of my kids are going to a school influenced by the church in Rome.
My parents thought I wouldn't be able to do it - but I stuck to my guns.
They are now starting to attend a non-religious school.

"Educate Together" schools - best thing in Irish education today!
...and guess what, the FF fcuks are dragging their heels about funding them. I wonder why! :rolleyes:

o1s1n

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Yes if there was a secular school available that taught of all world religions it would have suited you better.


Yes but what is wrong with learning about all the world religions in a secular school?

Religious studies as an option, similar to other optional subjects would be fine with me. As long as people are making a choice to partake in it rather than right now where they have to make a choice to opt out.

Nevyn

http://www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf

First thing to do is get rid of the preample, it is the introduction to the constitution and is part of the over all document and court decision have been made citing that to back them up.

Who many people have read it?

http://www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

philologos

^^ What relevance does that have to the working of peoples lives? I mean why is that so urgent to go rather than the issues that people have concerning matters in day to day life?

jumpguy

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Yes but what is wrong with learning about all the world religions in a secular school?

Because you don't. In a secular school, you're more likely to learn about the religion the school is owned by. In my catholic primary school (which I liked very much, and I never cared about the religion that owned it at the time) we only learned about Christianity in religion class. I didn't mind that...but there was no other world religions talked about.

Biggins

partyatmygaff wrote: »

So children of those indifferent to religion should grow up completely unaware of any religions? That does not bode well for tolerance.

Two of my four kids now are going to a non religion based school (the other two not old enough yet).
They meet ALL races and nationalities.
They get to meet them as people irrespective of religion, skin colour or language.
They get to like them as human beings not a religious status painted on them from the start.
What is so wrong with that??? It ruddy bodes VERY well for tolerance!
They get to know the person from the beginning - not the automatic typecast!

o1s1n wrote: »

Parents who wish to raise their children indifferent to religion should have the same rights to do so as parents who wish to raise their children in a religion.

Absolutely!

Nevyn

louisa200 wrote: »

I am sorry my number nine post seemed for some to bring down proceedings, however I have three children, and I have a legal obligation to send them to school,

Nope you don't have to send them to school, you have legal obligation to educate them and the constitution says parents are the primary teachers of children and as long as the kids pass the dept of eduction's tests each year you are totally entitled to home school them.

louisa200 wrote: »

and the state should have a legal obligation to eductate my children, minus religion...

And the state is in breach of UN directives on this.

louisa200 wrote: »

Educate together can do it....

They are multi denominational they each a bit about all religions but do not instruct or indoctrinate like catholic schools do.

louisa200 wrote: »

No church should have an influence on schooling imo... faith should be learned from church and home, not school........... school should be about learning everything, not just one thing, and pushing it and pushing it and pushing it... my son says the lords prayer three times an ffin day.. wtf is that teaching him?????
The Catholic church should have nothing to do with the eductaion of our children.. and should not be funded by the state to do so, it is fundamentally wrong............

The state funds all school the same but refused to take on the patronage/responsibility of the schools and I agree to have 3,000 of the 3,200 primary school having crucifixes in them daily prayers and art and other subjects laced with christian religious teaching is frankly wrong in this day and age.

Nevyn

Jakkass wrote: »

^^ What relevance does that have to the working of peoples lives? I mean why is that so urgent to go rather than the issues that people have concerning matters in day to day life?

It sets the tone for our constitution from which all our rights and laws come from and has been used to say we are a christian nation first and foremost.

philologos

Thaedydal wrote: »

The state funds all school the same but refused to take on the patronage/responsibility of the schools and I agree to have 3,000 of the 3,200 primary school having crucifixes in them daily prayers and art and other subjects laced with christian religious teaching is frankly wrong in this day and age.

I wouldn't say that it is wrong, but there should be adequate alternatives. It's certainly never wrong to teach a child about religion if it is agreed to by parents irrespective of what "day and age" it is.

I especially don't get what on earth is offensive about crucifixes, and the latest EU ruling concerning Italy is utter lunacy. I don't remember any as I was being educated, but I don't see what the big deal is.

mikemac

Biggins wrote: »

"Educate Together" schools - best thing in Irish education today!

Hadn't heard of this before. Had a quick look at the list, there are over a dozen counties represented there, some in rural(ish) areas. So it's not just a city thing

Seems to be expanding anyway.

Nevyn

They majority of new school start ups in the country for the last 10 years have been educate together schools, they are a charity and the schools are put together by a collective of parents who work to make the school happen.

dvpower

The Humanist Association of Ireland has made a number of submissions to government on the topic, most relevant being the Equality for the Non Religious document.