Death penalty should be revisited, says ex-judge

deadhead13 · 16-11-2009 04:36PM

It is just as well that Richard Johnson is the ex-president of the High Court because he doesn't seem to have a clue about how the real world works. A referendum on the death penalty would be in affect a referendum on EU membership. It just isn't going to happen. Not to mention the fact it is only 8 years since the Irish electorate vote almost 2 to 1 in favour of getting rid of capital punishment.

CrazyRabbit · 16-11-2009 04:40PM

Pffft....if we did a better job raising our kids, they wouldn't commit so many crimes and we wouldn't have to worry so much about the courts system or the severity of punishments.

It really pisses me off when people focus so much on punishments, courts, prisons etc instead of focusing on the real problem.....poor parenting with kids being raised with no morales and no regard for other people.

You raise a child correctly, then it is highly unlikely that they will ever commit a crime requiring prison or the death penalty.

Our increase in crime over the last few years is not due to a percieved leniency of our judcial system. Scum have no respect or fear of the laws regardless of what those laws are, or the punishments for breaking them. That's what it means to be criminal...they act outside the law. Criminals never expect to get caught and so aren't deterred by harsh sentences.

You only have to look at countries with draconian punishments to see that crime still occurs. Hell, 1 in every 50 Americans has been in prison and the country as a whole still has a relatively high crime rate. And that's a country that gives you automatic life in prison for 3 felonies (car theft, burglaries etc)

No no...if you want to reduce crime, then you have to make sure children aren't raised by scum to become scum. Take the kids away from all junkies or persistent criminals. Stop the cycle. And 'troubled' children who are violent, aggressive, or getting involved in petty crime need to be given support, counseling and therapy to help them become happy productive people.

I've always said...it's astonishing that you need a theory test and practical test to drive a car, and yet you are allowed to raise a child with absolutely no training, quality checks or guidance.

(Sorry, I know a went a little off-tangent there, but it's all related)

philologos · 16-11-2009 04:42PM

I don't think the death penalty should be reimposed. Besides, it will be illegal after the Lisbon Treaty is formally brought in thanks the the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

97i9y3941 · 17-11-2009 01:07AM

they might aswell bring it back to those who have over 100 convictions,i mean,they are just laughing at the system,the life sentence in ireland doesnt actually mean life since some get parole,and money talks so i dont see any companys/countries not doing business with those countries that do have it because theres too much money to be lost in business,and i woundnt be surprised if the gov did bring back here since the prisons are overcrowding...

Holsten · 17-11-2009 01:08AM

Taking about it on Fm104 right now.

Not really that relevant, but 75% in favor of bringing it back.

senordingdong · 17-11-2009 01:12AM

Holsten wrote: »

Taking about it on Fm104 right now.

Not really that relevant, but 75% in favor of bringing it back.

Yeha but technically that's not 75% of Ireland.
Just 75% of Adrian Kennedy listeners...who, let's face it...would be the first to go...

anonymous_joe · 17-11-2009 01:17AM

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Judges in this country are lenient to the point of lunacy, giving out slaps on the wrist and suspended sentences. Now there's a judge talking about the death penalty? It's just one extreme to another, isn't it?

I don't support the death penalty, no matter how many pillocks would support it, it's not something Ireland needs. It needs competant judges.

Misguided post, dude.

The problem isn't the judiciary, the problem's the entire system. Judges give the sentences that the laws proscribe.

The real problem is that there aren't enough prisons in this country. Thus, there's no space for prisoners, so prison sentences have to be overly lenient.

Liam Byrne · 17-11-2009 01:22AM

meditraitor wrote: »

The death penalty is not a deterent, its revenge

If it does its job as a deterrent, then there'd be nothing to want "revenge" for.
And if it didn't, they made their choice.

slipss · 17-11-2009 01:36AM

Just in relation to people that said yeah bring back the death penalty but only if we prove 100% positively they did it. Well from a legal standpoint (I have no legal training but I did watch A Few Good Men like 5 times or something) I'd imagine that would cause all sorts of problems. It would mean having two seperate ways of trying people.

One where the burden of proof was beyond a reasonable doubt, the other where the burden was absolutely 0% doubt. Any prosecuter choosing to seek the death penalty would have to obviously go for the 0% doubt option and risk losing a case they otherwise knew they would have a massive chance of winning. The result would be the far more of the countries worst offenders walking away as free men, because 1 witness makes a gaff in another wise stone clad case.

In the case of murders where the prosecuter doesn't seek the death penalty then defense would instantly be able to say "well clearly the prosecution isn't even sure of thier own case".

Would be a mess. The only way of having a death penalty would be to have it similar to the US system, with all the failings intrinsic to it. As in , we try our best to proof they are guilty, if the jury believes they are guilty, we kill them.

JimiTime · 17-11-2009 01:43AM

1.The justice systems top priority should be to protect the innocent of society.

2. Mercy should be part of the justice system.

3. These points should never be at odds.

4. If rehabilitation is to be realistic, it must not be a political buzz-word to make us feel better about ourselves. If the state chooses the rehabilitation road, it must be fully committed to it, and the criminal must meet criteria in order to be allowed avail of it.

5. Protection, Protection, Protection. Not, Punish, Punish, Punish. IMO, punishment of the law-breakers should be the consaquence of protection of the innocent. It should not be protection is a consaquence of punishment.

A Primal Nut · 17-11-2009 01:45AM

Karoma wrote: »

It wouldn't get enough votes. It's seen as a barbaric a practice that only totalitarian regimes like China or America maintain.

America is not totalitarian by any definition. The fact not all states have the death penalty proves this for a start. There is also a difference between using death penalty on political opponents vs serial killers.

A Primal Nut · 17-11-2009 01:49AM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Misguided post, dude.

The problem isn't the judiciary, the problem's the entire system. Judges give the sentences that the laws proscribe.

The real problem is that there aren't enough prisons in this country. Thus, there's no space for prisoners, so prison sentences have to be overly lenient.

Agree. And then when politicans suggest expanding prisons to deal with leniant sentences and over-crowding, civil liberties groups complain that this isn't the correct way to deal with the situation and we should try to rehabilitate them. Vicious circle of politics.

netwhizkid · 17-11-2009 03:21AM

There is no such thing as rehabilitation and if a dog bites once he is usually put down. In this country you cannot defend yourself as if you beat up a thief breaking into your home you may get sued while he is a victim of society! You cannot walk into a gunstore here and hand over a few hundred dollars and buy a gun for protection, our gardai are not armed and are expected to confront the sort of scum that exist in the country.

We need as part of a sea change in the tackling of crime.

Full re-instatement of the Death Penalty, for murder, paedophillia and serial sex offender (any 17+ boy could be a sex offender if he is humping his 16year or younger girlfriend and her mother is bad enough to destroy his life over it - a serial rapist preys on women and should be put to death). Paedophiles should also be executed.

Amend our constitution to enshrine to right to gun ownership for Citizens

Arm the Gardai and adopt as shoot first ask questions later policy.

Hire in conservative judges from the southern states of the United States and begin dishing out proper justice in this country.

Teferi · 17-11-2009 03:41AM

Albert Pierrepoint sums it up well:

"...The trouble with the death penalty has always been that nobody wanted it for everybody, but everybody differed about who should get off.".

while I think that some people deserve death for things they have committed it wouldn't work in the modern Irish society and I wouldn't like us to have the option.

Palmerstown_guy · 17-11-2009 10:15AM

" he blames on the prevalence of sex and violence in advertising and the media. “We’re becoming unshockable,” he said."

Once I read that, this so called ex-judge lost all respect. Really? Has he ever read the bible, with all its torture and violence...it's in every hotel

It all comes down to education.

Dublinman12 · 17-11-2009 12:20PM

I agree to an extent with the american system.....3 strikes and your out....it certainly would change a little nakkers mind if he's about to break into someones house for the 3rd time....instead of having 50 previous convictions and roaming the streets.....sure wasnt the a guy last week released early (he served 2 months of a 9 month sentence)....for burglary and theft....he got out at 2pm and had a shovel in hand in someones back garden about the smash someones back window by 7pm that night....

Burglary is an awful crime....its not petty theft at all....although the government only recognise crimes when its too late...when somebody has got knifed....

There are more guards on the roads checking drink drivers, tax and insurance (revenue making, penalty points ) or in the dail car park minding cars.....

I do agree with the death penalty...but only for the small minority....it wont solve the real problems.... why wont the government put it to the people of the state to contribute to pay for a top jail....(honestly i would volunteer 5 or 10 euro a month towards it for a while)...

97i9y3941 · 17-11-2009 12:24PM

guards are afraid of these guys and the hassle involves,i remember the case in tipperary,when yobs bate up an tourist and some other unfortantes on patricks day,only for the shameing of the guards lack of effort to find them which callers highlighted on the joe duffy show that something was finally done...

full story here

http://www.nationalist.ie/13447/Savagery-on-the-streets-of.5108690.jp

Dublinman12 · 17-11-2009 12:36PM

God thats shocking!....sure Keith Barrys father highlighted abuse of elderly people in their own homes for a short time......now its been swept under the carpet...and recently the government devoted loads of time towards (defending their sponsors and buddies) in relation to the alcahol limit...

97i9y3941 · 17-11-2009 12:40PM

they should bring it back,i mean,think of the victims of crime,the godfathers that still cause misery on the streets even when they are locked up,the people burned out of their houses and beat up,even the prison officers get savage assaults at time,simple,if you step out of line you deserve to get death penalty,society doesnt need you..

GrizzlyMan · 17-11-2009 12:42PM

Yep im all for the Death Penalty, but it will never happen!

Dark_lord_ire · 17-11-2009 03:29PM

What we have is a crazy system. I am a Garda can't get into details but I've seen lads get convicted of things like burglary and get a six month suspended sentance even with previous convictions. Seen a unemployed drunk driver (previous criminal convictions) fight a case all the way to high court on points of law. Well and good that's his right but he is not paying the millions it costs. That would be all of you. I do mean millions not making that up

Not only this but death by dangerous driving that person is still only be in jail 4 years at most. It's actually dishearting. Prision in Ireland is a holiday for some. I do believe in a death sentance but only in the worst of the worst.

In the big picture I'd like life to mean life and also labour they should earn their keep.

By the way all in favor of death sentances well the criminals who pull the trigger don't have a long life expectancy. They all end up dead.

Mark200 · 17-11-2009 03:52PM

senordingdong wrote: »

I'm sure some people would find it entertaining but that's not what my point was about.
I'm in favour of it because for many criminals, I see no alternative.
Few go to prison for any reasonable length of time and those that do, seem to take forever getting sent there.
Many commit extremely heinous crimes, and get released from their mickey mouse sentance only to re-offend.

If they are truely bad people who re-commit unthinkable crimes, and prison is not reforming them...what alternative is there?

So instead of just saying that the legal system should be changed so life prison sentences without parole are easier to hand down to criminals, you want to just kill them instead? Riiiight

El Siglo · 22-11-2009 01:27PM

If we had prisons like this and Gardai like these, there would be absolutely no crime and no need for a death penalty.

RMD · 22-11-2009 01:32PM

No point in re-introducing the death penalty until we have a competent judicial system, not this pile of ****e of suspended sentences and fines.

I'd very rarely support the death penalty, and the only time I do would be for such barbaric crimes the criminal deserves to die just as barbaricly, not strapped to a table being killed the good ol' humane way.

sparkling sea · 22-11-2009 08:52PM

Dark_lord_ire wrote: »

What we have is a crazy system. I am a Garda can't get into details but I've seen lads get convicted of things like burglary and get a six month suspended sentance even with previous convictions. Seen a unemployed drunk driver (previous criminal convictions) fight a case all the way to high court on points of law. Well and good that's his right but he is not paying the millions it costs. That would be all of you. I do mean millions not making that up

Not only this but death by dangerous driving that person is still only be in jail 4 years at most. It's actually dishearting. Prision in Ireland is a holiday for some. I do believe in a death sentance but only in the worst of the worst.

In the big picture I'd like life to mean life and also labour they should earn their keep.

By the way all in favor of death sentances well the criminals who pull the trigger don't have a long life expectancy. They all end up dead.

I am really shocked by your reply and as a Garda and therefore someone who is meant to set a standard ,your opinion on the death penalty is totally at odds with the ethos of the Garda Organisation - are you aware of this?

The death penalty has been shown not to deter people from crime. Even up tarrifing systems used by some states do not explain the average of 50 per 100,000 murders commited in the USA as opposed to the 16 per 100,000 murders commited in Ireland.

Ireland differs from other countries with regard to the principle of Proportionality which is key in just deserts theory which is used in Ireland. Cardinal proportionality is used world wide and requires that the magnitude of the penalty is not out proportion with the gravity of the offence; it is equal to but never more than that. Ordinal proportionality concerns the ranking of the relative seriousness of different offences. In practice much depends on the type of crime committed. Ireland departs from the world wide view when sentencing as not only should the sentence be proportionate to the gravity of the crime but the circumstances of the accused must also be considered. The gravity of the offence is decided by the amount of harm caused and the offender’s culpability.[/B . For me this is the real problem

]When deciding what level of offence and the sentence to apply, judges in Ireland have wide discretionary powers. Mitigating and aggravating factors, for example, pleading guilty, particularly in cases of rape or sexual assault, means that the maximum sentence may not be applied. Further as a Garda you must be aware that under our system; previous convictions may not be taken into account in the prosecution of the case, but only if the person is found guilty and then with regard to sentencing only.

There are also personal circumstances which mitigate a sentence: - financial hardship, impact on family/children, health of accused, employment, guilty plea, evidence of reform/remorse or rehabilitation, previous good character, no prior convections. If there is a mitigation factor the judge has to reduce the penalty she/he will impose by 25% at least.

If people had to serve the terms imposed on them and there was consistency in sentencing, for example: if you are convicted of murder you will serve at least 25 years in prison before being considered for parole then this may serve as more of a deterrant. The death penalty does not deter.

97i9y3941 · 22-11-2009 08:55PM

sometimes the circumstances are explotied tho,the solicitor using his sob story to get some scumbag off an prison term..

drkpower · 22-11-2009 08:59PM

sparkling sea wrote: »

I am really shocked by your reply and as a Garda and therefore someone who is meant to set a standard ,your opinion on the death penalty is totally at odds with the ethos of the Garda Organisation - are you aware of this?

People do not have to have a personal view that is in compliance with the views of their employers, you know.

There is a lot of detail in the rest of your post, but not much on the death penalty and why it should not or should be permissable. Deterrrence is not the only function of a criminal justice system.

sparkling sea · 22-11-2009 10:42PM

QUOTE=drkpower;63135982]People do not have to have a personal view that is in compliance with the views of their employers, you know.

There is a lot of detail in the rest of your post, but not much on the death penalty and why it should not or should be permissable. Deterrrence is not the only function of a criminal justice system.

With regard to the Gardai they do you know; the opinion of an individual Garda is not meant to be at odds with the core ethos, and there is a very good reason for this.
People are different, that don’t have the same power to use or abuse the law.

With regard to the death penalty, what more would you like to know. As I pointed out at the start of my post their are 50 murders commited per 100,000 people in the USA - lowest states being 28 and highest being 70. In Ireland the death penalty is not used and still our murder rate is much lower -16 per 100,000 people. Further, European countries have a lower murder rate per 100,000 although Ireland is the 2nd lowest.

These figures speak for themselves and this includes up tarrifing which I know is used in some states and may distort committal rates. Look up Garland , O'Mahony, etc, in any journal or book – international figures also available on a number of governmental and NGO sites - info is all there, although as always look at who is funding the studies before deciding on their credibility.

Why would it be perrmissible when 1. it doesn't deter, 2. it can't be reconciled with Bunreacht na hEireann in fairness with it being a christian constitution, and 3. it conflicts with EU law,we cant be part of the EU and allow for the death penalty.

One of the main functions of incarceration in Ireland is actually deterrence - the state punishes a person who breaks part of our social contract and by doing so sends out a message to the rest of the members of that society. It may not be the only function but it is one of the main functions.

I personally think the message being sent out to Irish society is extremely unclear and is not serving its purpose, people are not getting a clear message, but capital punishment is not a deterrence and comparative research with other western countries proves this.

tolosenc · 22-11-2009 10:43PM

Murderers, rapists and paedophiles.

drkpower · 22-11-2009 10:48PM

sparkling sea wrote: »

With regard to the Gardai they do you know; the opinion of an individual Garda is not meant to be at odds with the core ethos, and there is a very good reason for this.
.

Can you point to where it is prescribed that a Garda cannot/should not have a personal opinion at odds with the core ethos please.

As for the rest of your post, this is not a debate on the legality of the DP (obvioulsy it is illegal), but the moral/ethical rightness or wrongness of it. The law can be changed. And as I already said, deterrrence is not the only function of a criminal justice system.

Death penalty should be revisited, says ex-judge

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