Death penalty should be revisited, says ex-judge

marcsignal

I have to admit, I'm not disappointed about this, but doubt it will ever come to anything. It seems our membership of the EU would be a problem for a start. Would be interesting to see how a referendum on the issue would pan out though.

THE QUESTION of the death penalty for certain kinds of murder, for example those committed during armed robberies, should be revisited, according to the former president of the High Court, Mr Justice Richard Johnson.

Speaking to The Irish Times , the judge said: “The Government should look at it. Then if the people want it they should have it.”

A constitutional ban on the death penalty was introduced as the 21st amendment to the Constitution in 2001. Another referendum would be necessary if the death penalty were to be legislated for.

“I am not totally in favour of it. But it should be revisited,” the former judge said. “It would have to be for specific offences. If people arm up and go out to rob and decide to take out anyone who gets in their way, they should pay the price. It should be a matter for each individual case.”

He believes the death penalty had a deterrent effect in the past.

“When I was growing up if a murder took place there were headlines in the press for a week. Now no one notices. Murder is no longer shocking anybody. People have far less respect for each other than they used to,” he said.

Some of this he blames on the prevalence of sex and violence in advertising and the media. “We’re becoming unshockable,” he said.

However, he acknowledged it was very difficult to be absolutely certain a person was guilty of murder, and that he would be deeply concerned about wrong convictions. “If the death penalty existed in Britain the Birmingham Six would have been executed,” he said.

The last person executed in Ireland was in 1954, when Michael Manning was hanged, with the sentence being carried out by English official hangman Albert Pierrepoint. No further executions were carried out and it was abolished in law in 1990.

The abolition of capital punishment is also a condition of EU membership and exists in a protocol to the European Convention on Human Rights, to which Ireland is a signatory.

The 21st amendment inserted a clause preventing the Oireachtas from reintroducing the death penalty without a further referendum. It was passed in a referendum held the same day as the first Nice referendum by 62 per cent of those who voted, with 38 per cent voting against the ban. Voters also voted that day for Ireland to sign up to the International Criminal Court.

The former judge also said that there was a “culture of dishonesty” in Ireland. “In England they are just as dishonest, but once they are found out they are gone,” he said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1116/1224258922186.html

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Karoma

It wouldn't get enough votes. It's seen as a barbaric a practice that only totalitarian regimes like China or America maintain.

marcsignal

I know what you mean, I'm just curious about whether the Irish public today would be in any way de-sensetised to death, per say, as a penalty, due to all of the violent murders/shootings going on these days.

Bandit12

Yes we can

Karl Hungus

Judges in this country are lenient to the point of lunacy, giving out slaps on the wrist and suspended sentences. Now there's a judge talking about the death penalty? It's just one extreme to another, isn't it?

I don't support the death penalty, no matter how many pillocks would support it, it's not something Ireland needs. It needs competant judges.

minidazzler

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Judges in this country are lenient to the point of lunacy, giving out slaps on the wrist and suspended sentences. Now there's a judge talking about the death penalty? It's just one extreme to another, isn't it?

I don't support the death penalty, no matter how many pillocks would support it, it's not something Ireland needs. It needs competant judges.

First part I agree with.

Judges are much too lenient, especially against career scumbags. It's not uncommon to see lads up for 30 different offences in a day in the circuit courts, mostly minor things, but still get off because everything was only "small".

But then someone who has done nothing wrong in his life is bricking it and might get a ****e load thrown at them!!

However, I do, in extreme circumstances agree with the Death Penalty!

But, I disagree with your last statement. We need a competant prison service that can accomodate everyone that can be convicted. Judges are sometimes just forced to let lads off because of over crowding!!!

Or even when someone is locked up, they can just apply for Temporary release and be out after a few weeks. Even for violent crimes.

MagicMarker

We can't even get the basics right ffs! Once we have a competent judiciary system I'm willing to listen to anything. But the death penalty will never get my vote. What will get my vote is more prisons and more Gardai.

Tar.Aldarion

No need for a step backwards, thanks.

Joey the lips

Should the death penality be revisited.... No. For many resons. 1. The birmingham 6 second, any murder outside the greed and lust aspect has the ability to be an underline insanity. There is no rehabilitation in death and if this is the justification for killing people why dont we introduce euthenasia for the elderly. They cost us to much as well.

However its clear we need more prisions and longer sentences. However the master fcukup that is thornton hall seems to confirm the govt cannot get this right either!

AckwelFoley

Im always split about the death penelty to be honest.

i would bring it back only for people using txt spk on the internet

Jumpy

I would be against death. But definitely for Hard Labour.

I think the hotel style prisons we have are a joke.

dan719

Karoma wrote: »

It wouldn't get enough votes. It's seen as a barbaric a practice that only totalitarian regimes like China or America maintain.

I think you should learn the meaning of totalitarian. :rolleyes: Hint; It doesn't mean America.


Edit; I would be in favour of the death penalty for anyone who knowingly kills or critically injures any man/woman who works in either the armed forces or emergency services. Anyone who opens fire on an unarmed Garda can be killed in as barbaric a manner as one desires.

Edit no.2; And for the crew of the sea shepard on whale wars.

K-Ren

I think the last people to ever re-instate the death penalty would be this government, it'd be suicide.

fryup

its being discussed now, on the gerry ryan show

the_syco

The last line is so f**king true, it's not funny.

The former judge also said that there was a “culture of dishonesty” in Ireland. “In England they are just as dishonest, but once they are found out they are gone,” he said.

Tar.Aldarion

dan719 wrote: »

I think you should learn the meaning of totalitarian. :rolleyes: Hint; It doesn't mean America.

What role do the population play in the decision making process?

K4t

I dunno, it's dodgy. If the government decide to bring it back and we vote no, will we be asked to vote again?

dan719

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

What role do the population play in the decision making process?

They vote for their representitives. By that definition you could claim Ireland is totalitarian.

Tar.Aldarion

dan719 wrote: »

They vote for their representitives. By that definition you could claim Ireland is totalitarian.

And in a totalitarian democracy people are allowed to vote the representatives in, so? How was Karoma wrong, do go on...

Caoimhín

I dont believe it is right to take another's life under any circumstances.

Herbal Deity

dan719 wrote: »

I think you should learn the meaning of totalitarian. :rolleyes: Hint; It doesn't mean America.

You can view the "or" as separating "China" and "America", which means "totalitarian regimes" describes both of them, or "totalitarian regimes like China" and "America".

You determine which is the correct interpretation by the context. I think it's fairly obvious in this case.

dan719

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

And in a totalitarian democracy people are allowed to vote the representatives in, so? How was Karoma wrong, do go on...

Sorry, I didn't read 'totalitarian democracy', I read totalitarianism. I know it's fashionable to have a pop at the US these days, but it's just ridiculous to claim it is a totalitarian state.

Regarding your claim. In most states, citizens, as well as voting for the law makers, they also vote for the judges that interpret these laws. Most public office positions are also filled by election. (who can forget Homer Simpson as springfield's sanitation commisioner?)) I assume most peope would have access to politicians, at least at a local level to lobby for certain decisions. Unless you wish to introduce a system of partial direct democracy ala the Swiss model, I don't see how you can get any more democratic than that?

TheZohanS

K-Ren wrote: »

I think the last people to ever re-instate the death penalty would be this government, it'd be suicide.

They couldn't, it's against EU law afaik.

Keano

Not in favour of the death penalty. In Ireland, life should mean life not this mickey mouse 25 year sentence.

drkpower

Caoimhín wrote: »

I dont believe it is right to take another's life under any circumstances.

I am standing on the roof of a skyscraper and am about to shoot your oinly child; the only way to stop me is to push me off the edge. What would you do?

Moral absolutes may sound attractive but they inevitably lead to absurd results.

On the substance, the only good reason against the death penalty is that it is irreversible and therefore will always lead to incredible injustices. Other than that, I'm all for it but determining those cases where you are 100% positive that someone is guilty and one's where you cannot be 100% is quite difficult. Therefore, best to keep it off the books and instead, change the prison system to have different types of prisons and prison experiences to better reflect the nature of the crime.

Dyr

my only problem with it would be that they would need to ensure guilt beyond doubt before a death sentence could be passed. But let's say for the toe rags in limerick who've shot innocent people, I've no problem with them guys facing a death penalty.

tbh we'd need a police force and prosecution service that can secure convictions before we worry about sentencing :pac:

Tar.Aldarion

dan719 wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't read 'totalitarian democracy', I read totalitarianism. I know it's fashionable to have a pop at the US these days, but it's just ridiculous to claim it is a totalitarian state.

Regarding your claim. In most states, citizens, as well as voting for the law makers, they also vote for the judges that interpret these laws. Most public office positions are also filled by election. (who can forget Homer Simpson as springfield's sanitation commisioner?)) I assume most peope would have access to politicians, at least at a local level to lobby for certain decisions. Unless you wish to introduce a system of partial direct democracy ala the Swiss model, I don't see how you can get any more democratic than that?

What I am saying is that is a lot of places are totalitarian deocracies, I don't see the massive problem with that, it can be fair, but America is 'more totalitarian' than other countries in the way that the government 'strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible'. Alos, teh propaganda used during things like Iraq, the media outlets over there etc. Might change with the new president, but it certainly has been quite like this until now.

Tar.Aldarion

drkpower wrote: »

I am standing on the roof of a skyscraper and am about to shoot your oinly child; the only way to stop me is to push me off the edge. What would you do?

Moral absolutes may sound attractive but they inevitably lead to absurd results.

I would kill you in defense of myself or the one I loved. However, if you would do something it does not make it right. You can know it is wrong to do it yet not be strong enough to carry this out.

drkpower

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I would kill you in defense of myself or the one I loved. However, if you would do something it does not make it right. You can know it is wrong to do it yet not be strong enough to carry this out.

Are you suggesting that it is 'wrong' to kill another person to prevent them from killing you or your loved one, where it is the only way you can prevent them from so doing??

It may not be nice, but it is most certaily not 'wrong', under any reasonable moral or ethical code.

Lux23

I am not in favour off it. Its not that I would have alot of sympathy for people who commit horrible crimes its more that I don't see how the death penalty is a deterrent in any way. Can anyone actually prove that it is? Frankly if I were to murder someone I would prefer to get executed than spend the rest of my life in prison. I also read somewhere that gangbangers in LA have a longer life expectany on Death Row then they do on the street so its hardly going to stop them once they get started.

If you want to prevent crime you need to spend money on removing the root causes not on buildling gallows.

Tar.Aldarion

drkpower wrote: »

Are you suggesting that it is 'wrong' to kill another person to prevent them from killing you or your loved one, where it is the only way you can prevent them from so doing??

It may not be nice, but it is most certaily not 'wrong', under any reasonable moral or ethical code.

Says who? Gandhi certainly didn't agree, but you are objectively right and somebody else is objectively wrong?

Why is it not nice? I mean if it's morally fine, why would you feel something is not nice?

General Zod

Irish judiciary talking about dishonesty.

Take a pay cut.

Dyr

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

America is 'more totalitarian' than other countries in the way that the government 'strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible'.

I would say that Ireland and the UK have far more interference in citizens private life's than the states. Americans tend to take their civil liberties pretty seriously

Thirdfox

Karoma wrote: »

It wouldn't get enough votes. It's seen as a barbaric a practice that only totalitarian regimes like China or America maintain.

You forgot other "totalitarian regimes" such as South Korea, Japan, Philippines and India.

Too bad your sensationalist post doesn't match up with the facts. I'm generally against the death penalty but when people post up ridiculous claims like yours it doesn't do the debate any justice.

senordingdong

I'm very much in favour of it but the fact is it would never work in this country.

It would be wrapped up in red tape and would take forever to get anythign done.

Also, I don't think it would have any effect as a deterant.
I just believe that society doesn't need some people.

biko

So far we've had calls for death penalty in AH for burning dogs/ robbing people/ being from Limerick/ being from Dublin/ beating & robbing old people/ car & house alarms going off in the night.

I think it's safe to say the death penalty will pass in a referendum.

The penalty would not work as a deterrent, people are just too stupid and drunk to think of the consequences of their actions.

wudangclan

Magnus wrote: »

So far we've had calls for death penalty in AH for burning dogs/ robbing people/ being from Limerick/ being from Dublin/ beating & robbing old people/ car & house alarms going off in the night.

I think it's safe to say the death penalty will pass in a referendum.

The penalty would not work as a deterrent, people are just too stupid and drunk to think of the consequences of their actions.

How the tide has turned since 2001.

Kev_ps3

Kill em all and let god sort em out;)

Lux23

senordingdong wrote: »

I'm very much in favour of it but the fact is it would never work in this country.

It would be wrapped up in red tape and would take forever to get anythign done.

Also, I don't think it would have any effect as a deterant.
I just believe that society doesn't need some people.

Then why are you in favour of it? Do you think the state murdering people would be fun to watch or something?

CliffHuxtabel

Forget about the death penalty... they should start lobotomizing the murderers, rapists, etc

that way they would no longer be a threat to everyone else but they could still keep their stinking lives

syklops

I think the main reason most people in Ireland are against it is because we have not suffered any one individual crime which warranted it.

We have not had any Ted Bundy types in this country, at least none that have been caught. I do believe in the death penalty but only for people who will never be able to make up for what they did.

Take Saddam Hussein. If he had gone to prison he would happily have spent the rest of his life appealing to various courts, and literally millions extra would have been spent on a person who didn't deserve it. Dozens of people died needlessly during his court case. How many more would have died during his various appeals processes?

drkpower

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Says who? Gandhi certainly didn't agree, but you are objectively right and somebody else is objectively wrong??

I dont know all of Gandhi's views but I would be dissapointed in him if he believed it would be 'wrong' to kill another person to prevent them from killing you or your loved one, where it is the only way you can prevent them from so doing. The alternative, that you simply sit back and watch while someone kills you and yours is a disgraceful attitude.

I doubt that was his view. If you have a reference, I'd appreciate it.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Why is it not nice? I mean if it's morally fine, why would you feel something is not nice?

Are you just being silly for the sake of it?
Its morally fine to kill an animal to provide food for your family; it's not 'nice' to actually kill the animal.
Yawn...

Caoimhín

drkpower wrote: »

I am standing on the roof of a skyscraper and am about to shoot your oinly child; the only way to stop me is to push me off the edge. What would you do?

Moral absolutes may sound attractive but they inevitably lead to absurd results.

True, I mean the state has no right to take the life of any person.

amacachi

I've said before a while back that I don't really agree with the death penalty but what annoys me about getting rid of it is that the ceiling for sentences is suddenly brought down a lot, meaning that all sentences have to be shortened to stay proportional.

Still, not going to happen for a long time if ever.

syklops

Magnus wrote: »

The penalty would not work as a deterrent, people are just too stupid and drunk to think of the consequences of their actions.

No it wouldnt work as a deterrent. The majority of murders we have in this country are gang-related which means drugs. There are very few 80 year old gang lords going around, so any one who gets involved does not really believe that they are going to die peacefully in their sleep as an Octogenarian.

me_right_one

Bring it back for paedophiles, and supporters of the paedo industry:mad::mad::mad:

senordingdong

Lux23 wrote: »

Then why are you in favour of it? Do you think the state murdering people would be fun to watch or something?

I'm sure some people would find it entertaining but that's not what my point was about.
I'm in favour of it because for many criminals, I see no alternative.
Few go to prison for any reasonable length of time and those that do, seem to take forever getting sent there.
Many commit extremely heinous crimes, and get released from their mickey mouse sentance only to re-offend.

If they are truely bad people who re-commit unthinkable crimes, and prison is not reforming them...what alternative is there?

aDeener

Caoimhín wrote: »

I dont believe it is right to take another's life under any circumstances.

so if some fucker was putting a gun to your childs head and about to pull the trigger you would think it wrong for someone to take said fucker out? :rolleyes:

prinz

What we need is a referendum on prison, take away all rights/privileges... do away with 'open' prisons such as castlereagh, jump suits and shackles mandatory, work details, a life sentence to mean a life sentence, solitary confinement punishments etc. Three strikes for any convictions to lead to an automatic minimum term, mandatory sentencing for some crimes.

Prison in Ireland is seen as a soft touch. Too many bleeding hearts worry more about prisoners than they do about victims in this country. I suggest we hire prison builders and managers from Texas, and let them run the prisons as a business.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1017/1224256900212.html

this is why our society is a joke, not NAMA or anything else. 11 years for "manslaughter".......i.e. drag a man minding his own business from his car and kick him to death, on top of 65 previous convictions...

Lux23

senordingdong wrote: »

I'm sure some people would find it entertaining but that's not what my point was about.
I'm in favour of it because for many criminals, I see no alternative.
Few go to prison for any reasonable length of time and those that do, seem to take forever getting sent there.
Many commit extremely heinous crimes, and get released from their mickey mouse sentance only to re-offend.

If they are truely bad people who re-commit unthinkable crimes, and prison is not reforming them...what alternative is there?

Leaving them in prison like we do now. The death penalty isn't going to deter anyone either so why bring it back.

Your post by the way is one of the coldest things I have ever read.

senordingdong

Lux23 wrote: »

Leaving them in prison like we do now. The death penalty isn't going to deter anyone either so why bring it back.

Your post by the way is one of the coldest things I have ever read.

And my post is about the coldest people in 'society'.

No, the death penalty isn't going to deter anyone, I already said that.

Leaving them in prison like we do now

What makes you think every murderer/rapist/peadophile goes to prison?
And what makes you think they stay there?

Why bring back death penalty?
To put down criminals.