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DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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  • #482
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Clearly what we need is a few politicians with their civil servant advisers to go with a full delegation of business worthies to go to some far off place like Las Vegas, or Tokio, to discuss it, and then write a report on how we need a few more trials and tests.

    Now your just being sarcastic. Hopefully they would just stay in that far of place.

    TBH I am just sick of the discussion and I completely agree with you "it is beyond farce".


  • #483
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well all is not lost. They have launched something. The IBA [Irish Broadcastiing Authority] came into being at the start of this month.

    So soon all will be sorted.


  • #484
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Well all is not lost. They have launched something. The IBA [Irish Broadcastiing Authority] came into being at the start of this month.

    So soon all will be sorted.

    BAI Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, at least their New Chairperson Bob Collins understands and is aware of the DTT problem having being part of the early discussions between RTÉ (as DG) and the Government. Unlike like the previous Bertie appointee. Lets hope he can insist as Chairperson of the Authority that One Vision and RTÉ NL take the opportunity right now.


  • #485
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,076 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Well all is not lost. They have launched something. The IBA [Irish Broadcastiing Authority] came into being at the start of this month.

    So soon all will be sorted.

    Jobs for the boys and girls, the three government appointed boards (RTE, BCI & BCC) now become four - RTE, the BAI, the Contract Awards Committee and the Compliance Committee. If anyone is interested in putting their name forward they have until 12th Nov. The change of name from BCI to BAI won't affect the discussions with OneVision.
    Solair wrote: »
    The only commercially viable alternative I can think of would be to get UPC involved, which would probably be illegal or, at the very least would introduce serious competition law issues, but it would create a viable DTT roll out proposal.

    The MMDS 2.5Ghz spectrum allocation for MMDS is quite seriously out of line with normal European allocations, i.e. it's being used for broadband. There is also serious scope to re-use this spectrum in Ireland with technologies like WiMax to allow for decent coverage.

    If the state were to offer UPC a direct swap, i.e. get off MMDS and move your pay operation over to DTT, over say a 5 year period.

    The BCI could retain control of perhaps 2 MUXes which could be used to carry FTA content while UPC would carry the pay aspects of its services on the remaining MUXes.

    The downsides, other than the competition law would be that the DTT platform would need to be capable of carrying at least as many channels as digital MMDS.

    The upside would be that UPC would ditch the almost line-of-sight MMDS system they're lumbered with and could continue to provide rural 'cable-like' service.

    Last year the EU Commission issued a Decision on the 2.6 GHz band which made the band available on a "technology neutral and service neutral basis" to terrestrial services. The Decision "designated and made (the band) available for systems capable of providing electronic communications services as defined in the Framework Directive (2002/21/EC)" ... "MMDS is a means of transmission and is covered by the definition of ECS in the Framework Directive".

    Currently the band is used for MMDS in five countries, many other countries use it for military applications - some with no plans to vacate the band, others use it for fixed radio links, ENG/OB, etc.

    After ASO only four national commercial muxes will be available, at the moment UPC have 18 MMDS muxes (a further 4 are not used for Digital MMDS), this may be reduced to 11 following next years review but still more than 4 DTT muxes. Can't see UPC moving from MMDS to UHF for that.

    Also in the current regulations there is an option to renew the current MMDS licences for 5 years to 2019 following consultation and review.


  • #486
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    The Cush wrote: »
    Jobs for the boys and girls, the three government appointed boards (RTE, BCI & BCC) now become four - RTE, the BAI, the Contract Awards Committee and the Compliance Committee. If anyone is interested in putting their name forward they have until 12th Nov. The change of name from BCI to BAI won't affect the discussions with OneVision.

    Basing purely on Bob Collins history I with RTÉ and his frustration with the Government on this topic I think he will be a very good Chairperson to move this along. It is nice to see an none political appointee unlike Bertie's Solicitor, which was just jobs for the boys.


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  • #487
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The Cush wrote: »
    After ASO only four national commercial muxes will be available, at the moment UPC have 18 MMDS muxes (a further 4 are not used for Digital MMDS), this may be reduced to 11 following next years review but still more than 4 DTT muxes. Can't see UPC moving from MMDS to UHF for that.

    Also in the current regulations there is an option to renew the current MMDS licences for 5 years to 2019 following consultation and review.
    Out of curiosity though...
    How many mmds customers do upc have? Are they getting enough from them to cover the electricity and maintainence bill for the tx's?
    It's another technology that has been absolutely raped by freesat availability and sky.
    I should imagine having 18 or 118 muxes would make little impact on that fact.

    I actually think that UPC operating a joint venture with RTE to operate one or two dtt muxes is one of the better ideas out there.
    Sadly it's not really a paying proposition either..unless it was targeted towards areas with no UK overspill.


  • #488
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    MMDS statistics (This may possibly include SCTV Digital in Cork as well as UPC, I am not 100% sure)

    Analogue MMDS TV subscriptions: 2 955
    Digital MMDS TV subscriptions: 78 880

    Source : Comreg via www.comstat.ie

    Some very interesting stats!

    http://www.comstat.ie/data/data.472.1201.data.html


  • #489
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Do you know what the ARPU for Cable and Satellite subscriptions are? (Including Telephony and Broadband).


  • #490
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Solair wrote: »
    MMDS statistics (This may possibly include SCTV Digital in Cork as well as UPC, I am not 100% sure)

    Analogue MMDS TV subscriptions: 2 955
    Digital MMDS TV subscriptions: 78 880

    Source : Comreg via www.comstat.ie

    Some very interesting stats!

    http://www.comstat.ie/data/data.472.1201.data.html
    so thats 81,000 countrywide.
    A lot more than I thought but hardly making much money.
    I'd not be surprised if a lot of them were in cork alright.


  • #491
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    so thats 81,000 countrywide.
    A lot more than I thought but hardly making much money.
    I'd not be surprised if a lot of them were in cork alright.

    I suppose that is how UPC would look at their figures, how many of those MMDS customers are UPC customers? as a larger company with cable areas they must be able to allow cable take some of the slack. Also I would have thought at this stage that UPC would just start upgrading people to Digital regardless of if they wanted it or not. Especially in areas where their digital service is available.


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  • #492
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,076 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    On todays show with Myles Dungan, standing in for PK, there was an interview with Tina Leonard, the Managing Director of the European Consumer Centre (ECC), about pay and digital tv in Ireland (approx 11:50 am).

    Unfortunately it included the same lack of/mis-information about DTT and analogue switchover as always - having to throw out the rabbit ears/set-top aerial, a non-existent EU Directive forcing us to switchoff analogue by 2015, people in the South East losing their UK analogue TV and having to "subscribe like the rest of us" to continue receiving the UK channels, 24% of the population not subscribing to pay tv only watching the 4 Irish channels (no mention of analogue or digital overspill or free satellite channels - as referred to in this thread by Solair), freeview was confused with the 4 Irish PSB channels and no mention of freesat, Myles assumed we would have to subscribe to somebody to watch the existing 4 Irish channels after the switchover to digital, an analogue TV won't become obselete in 3 years because you will be able to connect to UPC analogue cable (no mention of a DTT receiver).

    From a DTT point of view, not very informative from our national broadcaster who are in the process of rolling out DTT, where are all the experts in RTE and RTENL? An information campaign within RTE on DTT might be a good start.

    Show can be downloaded today (Thur 29) from the Listen to Latest Show link on this page or for the next week from the Shows from the past week panel Thursday link. Interview starts at 1:47:00.


  • #493
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    The Cush wrote: »
    On todays show with Myles Dungan, standing in for PK, there was an interview with Tina Leonard, the Managing Director of the European Consumer Centre (ECC), about pay and digital tv in Ireland (approx 11:50 am).

    Unfortunately it included the same lack of/mis-information about DTT and analogue switchover as always - having to throw out the rabbit ears/set-top aerial, a non-existant EU Directive forcing us to switchoff analogue by 2015, people in the South East losing their UK analogue TV and having to "subscribe like the rest of us" to continue receiving the UK channels, 24% of the population not subscribing to pay tv only watching the 4 Irish channels (no mention of analogue or digital overspill or free satellite channels - as referred to in this thread by Solair), freeview was confused with the 4 Irish PSB channels and no mention of freesat, Myles assumed we would have to subscribe to somebody to watch the existing 4 Irish channels after the switchover to digital, an analogue TV won't become obselete in 3 years because you will be able to connect to UPC analogue cable (no mention of a DTT receiver).

    From a DTT point of view, not very informative from our national broadcaster who are in the process of rolling out DTT, where are all the experts in RTE and RTENL? An information campaign within RTE on DTT might be a good start.

    Show can be downloaded today (Thur 29) from the Listen to Latest Show link on this page or for the next week from the Shows from the past week panel Thursday link. Interview starts at 1:47:00.

    Doesn't this overpaid individual do some research? Its clear it was very poorly put together and that the options are not clearly understood, Visitors to the West comment on the mushrooming Freesat installations. I think the overspill issue is the elephant in the room: they dare not mention it because it will structure the defacto evolution of technology standards. First cheapo MPEG2 boxes are used followed by MPEG4 T2 boxes when the price falls: I see today vendors are planning to bring out integrated DVB-T2/DVB-S2 boxes in a year. End of discussion.

    RTE are rather like Marie Antoinette: they continue to eat analogue cake while others are marshalling digital delectations. The BBC would have been forced to air an on-air retraction if this nonsense had been broadcast on BBC Radio4's You and Yours consumer programme.!!!


  • #494
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    The Cush wrote: »
    On todays show with Myles Dungan, standing in for PK, there was an interview with Tina Leonard, the Managing Director of the European Consumer Centre (ECC), about pay and digital tv in Ireland (approx 11:50 am).
    :eek: she had no clue.
    Unfortunately it included the same lack of/mis-information about DTT and analogue switchover as always - having to throw out the rabbit ears/set-top aerial, a non-existant EU Directive forcing us to switchoff analogue by 2015, people in the South East losing their UK analogue TV and having to "subscribe like the rest of us" to continue receiving the UK channels, 24% of the population not subscribing to pay tv only watching the 4 Irish channels (no mention of analogue or digital overspill or free satellite channels - as referred to in this thread by Solair), freeview was confused with the 4 Irish PSB channels and no mention of freesat, Myles assumed we would have to subscribe to somebody to watch the existing 4 Irish channels after the switchover to digital, an analogue TV won't become obselete in 3 years because you will be able to connect to UPC analogue cable (no mention of a DTT receiver).

    I can't agree more with you. Why didn't they talk to someone from RTÉ NL.


  • #495
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    mrdtv wrote: »
    RTE are rather like Marie Antoinette: they continue to eat analogue cake while others are marshalling digital delectations. The BBC would have been forced to air an on-air retraction if this nonsense had been broadcast on BBC Radio4's You and Yours consumer programme.!!!

    Not just RTÉ's problem they have had to put up with the Departments involved and other stakeholders.


  • #496
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,076 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Elmo wrote: »
    :eek: she had no clue.

    Blind leading the blind.

    I get the impression neither of them use an aerial to receive tv.


  • #497
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The Cush wrote: »
    Show can be downloaded today (Thur 29) from the Listen to Latest Show link on this page or for the next week from the Shows from the past week panel Thursday link. Interview starts at 1:47:00.
    Your summary of the information diarrhea that was on the show is enough,Nurse has already had to put me on a respirator..

    If I had to download it and actually listen,I'd go into cardiac arrest.

    Ever fear about the quality of information on programmes like that on topics we know less about when you see the rubbish and misinformation put out on a topic like this?

    Sigh.


  • #498
    GlumPlum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭GlumPlum


    FFS, I never heard such a clueless interview in my life.
    Apart from the Sky package pricing the woman didnt have the first idea of what she was talking about.
    Anybody poor sod listening to this interview for information would be left with completely the wrong idea.
    The whole issue of ASO and DTT is already complex enough without letting morons on the national broadcaster making it more confusing.

    I have a feeling there will never be an Irish terrestrial digital system. RTE will continue to broadcast in analogue in Ireland. TV manufacturers will stop supplying Irish market with analogue TVs. Irish consumers will become the first people in the world to have to use analogue to digital set top boxes in order to watch their own national broadcaster!


  • #499
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Dungan just read out a few e-mails all of which pointed out the availiblity of FTA as way to watch UK telly.


  • #500
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    GlumPlum wrote: »
    I have a feeling there will never be an Irish terrestrial digital system. RTE will continue to broadcast in analogue in Ireland. TV manufacturers will stop supplying Irish market with analogue TVs. Irish consumers will become the first people in the world to have to use analogue to digital set top boxes in order to watch their own national broadcaster!

    Since RTÉ NL is currently running "tests" (what is their to test? someone answer that for me) I beleive that we will have a DTT system in Ireland purely due to the work currently being done.

    How much of the country can receive DTT from RTÉ NL at this stage?


  • #501
    keith99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭keith99


    Elmo wrote: »
    Since RTÉ NL is currently running "tests" (what is their to test? someone answer that for me) I beleive that we will have a DTT system in Ireland purely due to the work currently being done.

    How much of the country can receive DTT from RTÉ NL at this stage?

    http://www.rte.ie/radio1/player_av.html?0,null,200,http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-todaywithpatkenny-Thursday.smil

    I just listened to the misinformation on this broadcast, no mention of irish dtt or the uk freesat, the producers of this programme should be sacked by RTE

    the woman from european consumer is very bad on research, you should listen yourself its after 1hour 47minutes on the above link


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  • #502
    Frisian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 200 ✭✭Frisian


    I could only stand two minutes listening to that muck.
    Jeez, this is late 2009. Germany, the country I hail from is beyond analogue TV, 80 million people, no problem. Just before that neighbouring Netherlands managed it without fuzz, and there I never heard any of that dysentery, from anyone, that woman was dribbling.
    Even more mortifying that it was broadcasted on national radio, not on some local station out in the sticks.
    Sad.


  • #503
    Rippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 961 ✭✭✭Rippy


    I was foaming at the mouth listening to this nonsense.
    I have to field umpteen phone calls a week already from confused people regarding digital tv. This sort of misinformation being pumped out just adds to the confusion.
    A complete joke that the national broadcaster is misinforming the public about changes in television.:eek:
    RTE NL have a relatively informative leaflet on DTT on their website. If the 'researcher ' had just glanced at that she would have had a better idea.


  • #504
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    Rippy wrote: »
    I was foaming at the mouth listening to this nonsense.
    I have to field umpteen phone calls a week already from confused people regarding digital tv. This sort of misinformation being pumped out just adds to the confusion.
    A complete joke that the national broadcaster is misinforming the public about changes in television.:eek:
    RTE NL have a relatively informative leaflet on DTT on their website. If the 'researcher ' had just glanced at that she would have had a better idea.

    Actually what's needed is a concise summary of systems available now, likely future trends and possibilities for the future. A well written professional sticky at the top of this reflector would highlight the issues in everyday English:

    a) Freesat is available throughout Ireland. Services available. Upfront costs. No subscription costs. Suitably expanded.

    b) Sky is available throughout Ireland. Packages and pricing

    c) Cable and MMDS are available in selected areas. Packages and pricing.
    l
    d) Welsh analogue overspill is being replaced by Freeview now. Availability via low cost STBs and integrated digital TVs.

    e) Analogue NI overspill continues till 2012. Thereafter it will be replaced by high power DTT.

    f) HD. Available now from Sky, Freesat and coming shortly from Freeview (Wales in 2010, NI in 2012).

    g) RTE access: via analogue, Sky, cable and MMDS. Future possibilities via indigenous Irish DTT to be decided.

    This is NOT rocket science, the Brits have managed the messaging very well in the teeth of many technology changes so it cannot be difficult in Ireland.

    The truth, as ever, is conclusive!


  • #505
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    I'm listening right now,shocking stuff. She sounds like a schoolchild trying to explain stuff and constantly tripping up over herself. Giggle. :mad:


  • #506
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    mrdtv wrote: »
    g) RTE access: via analogue, Sky, cable and MMDS. Future possibilities via indigenous Irish DTT to be decided.

    However Irish DTT is available through "tests" in certain parts of the country and it carries just the 4 analogue terrestrial channels.

    The rest of your message wants to be censored by One Vision, Sky and UPC. :)


  • #507
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,076 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    I see RTE havn't added the Tina Leonard piece to the podcast page for Thur 29th. :rolleyes:
    Enjoy it while can, it'll be gone by next Thursday.
    mike65 wrote: »
    Dungan just read out a few e-mails all of which pointed out the availiblity of FTA as way to watch UK telly.

    Just listened back to the to that part of the programme (approx 0:30:00), everything was pretty much included in the emails, now they need someone knowledgeable to explain it to Myles and the public.


  • #508
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,076 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Liz McManus, the Labour spokesperson on Communications yesterday issued a press release criticising the Government on the delay in rolling out DTT.

    In the press release she says
    "The Minister must provide an update immediately on whether this contract is to be signed in the near future. It is an urgent matter for Ireland's digital future and for our ability to take up on the significant benefits from the digital dividend. Ireland has been trailing behind in broadband provision and we must not now be left in the dark in relation to the EU wide digital switch over plan. I am tabling a Parliamentary Question to the Minister on this issue."

    The press release was issued as a result of a European Commission press release on the Digital Dividend this Wed which places Ireland at the bottom of the list of EU countries, together with Poland, who will probably fail to meet both the EU recommended deadline of Jan 1st 2012 and 2012 completely for Analogue Switchoff which will affect the release of spectrum for the Digital Dividend and the resulting economic benefit.

    SiliconRepublic.com report on the Liz McManus press release Digital TV failure is dimming the rise of Ireland’s broadband star


  • #509
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Part 1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8rudlQUxYY


    Part 2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDnEV6yoxuo


  • #510
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    To quote Myles Dungan and Tina Leonard .... "The days of the [coat] hanger sticking out the back of the telly is welll and truly over! ...."

    Quite the opposite IMHO, the digital signal will be so good that a coat hanger is all that most people in strong areas will need. Currently, I have perfect analogue reception from a coat hanger, and I expect to have perfect reception [in Dublin 4] in the digital era, if we ever have one.


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  • #511
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    To quote Myles Dungan and Tina Leonard .... "The days of the [coat] hanger sticking out the back of the telly is welll and truly over! ...."

    Quite the opposite IMHO, the digital signal will be so good that a coat hanger is all that most people in strong areas will need. Currently, I have perfect analogue reception from a coat hanger, and I expect to have perfect reception [in Dublin 4] in the digital era, if we ever have one.

    This all comes back down to coverage. What should we expect over the coming years. Am I right to suggest that the Major urban areas with already good Analogue signals will receive Digital first while the rest of the country i.e. those in rural/not close to major cities will remain badly coverage until 2015? Of course this is a major problem for One Vision and Easy TV since they will enter into competition with areas already saturated with Digital TV. In areas where magnet is available is take up high?

    Which areas currently have FTA Digital tests from RTÉ NL?


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