DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

A friend of mine in Ballyfermot is perfect analogue from an unusual setup which wouldn't be far off a coat hanger. I remember when I lived there it was possible to get snowy Kippure VHF with nothing plugged in at all!

Apogee

The follow up comments the next day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkC_qgOc4dE

The comment on Sat4Free sounded like a free advertisement sent in by someone connected with the company. Eventhough their website hasn't been active in months, I still see their receivers are available. Is Sat4Free still a going concern?

Elmo

You will have to subsitute BBC with RTE and Newsnight and other shows with Irish Equivalents.

Antenna

Frisian wrote: »

I could only stand two minutes listening to that muck.
Jeez, this is late 2009. Germany, the country I hail from is beyond analogue TV, 80 million people, no problem.

You're not comparing like with like


The main reason it was no problem in Germany etc was the very high percentage use of satellite and cable. All terrestrial channels available FTA on satellite. Very few people were relying on terrestrial anyway.

Frisian wrote: »

beyond analogue TV

Not correct, as the main German channels still seem to be going strong in analogue (as well as digital) on Astra 19.2 ?


If in this country if we had

(1) used MPEG2 instead of MPEG4 (so 'cheap as chips' receivers now)
(2) national channels RTE, TV3 TG4 all FTA on satellite
(3) several new worthwhile FTA channels (in addition to RTE/TV3/TG4) for terrestrial viewers on DTT

If all 3 of the above applied (as in the UK) here it would be much easier to have analogue switch-off sooner than 2015

(BTW re. point 1, I am not arguing that MPEG2 should have been used here, but it has to be accepted that using MPEG4 instead of MPEG2 contributes to pushing out analogue switch-off)

Elmo

Antenna wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like


The main reason it was no problem in Germany etc was the very high percentage use of satellite and cable. All terrestrial channels available FTA on satellite. Very few people were relying on terrestrial anyway.

Very few people are relying on Terrestrial in this country. 25% is not much.

(1) used MPEG2 instead of MPEG4 (so 'cheap as chips' receivers now)
(2) national channels RTE, TV3 TG4 all FTA on satellite
(3) several new worthwhile FTA channels (in addition to RTE/TV3/TG4) for terrestrial viewers on DTT

Don't they have to move over to Mpeg 4 services in other countries anyway? The only real reason Mpeg4 is an issue is because retailers started to stalk digital TV sets before DTT was role out.

I agree with points 2 and 3 and that point one is certainly a contributing factor.

Elmo

Also for any coverage of any infrastructure in similar sized countries (i.e. area) you will find that no matter how big your population the infrastructure is going to cost the same amount of work.


Understand that Germany is far bigger than Ireland.

Sam Russell

The problem with Irish DTT is twofold.

1. The commercial requirement for pay tv. This is not on as the number prepared to pay for the service offered is unlikely to be commercially viable. Only those outside the overspill area and unable to get freesat or FTA satellite, will pay for a simmilar, but lesser, service. Those willing to pay, are already paying Sky or NTL. The proposed service is not as good as those services.

2. The choice of MPEG4 means that Digital TVs and set top boxes are not readily available. The fact that we have UK suppliers operating over here who assume that Ireland is a sub-office of the Liverpool office, and anything that sells in Liverpool will do for here, with a suitable price hike. [The joke is that the Picnic box they are selling in the UK for 20 pounds will work here but is not offered here.]

If RTENL identified a STB product and approved a number of DTV sets that are compatible, they could launch the service, and announce a date for ASO of at least their major transmitters. ASO should be by the end of 2010 for those transmitters already running tests. If people know, they can get the product in time, and they will.

In some areas, TV3 and TG4 never had analogue switch on!

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

2. The choice of MPEG4 means that Digital TVs and set top boxes are not readily available.

I haven't seen any STBs for DTT in any of the UK retail outlets over here.

I assumed everyone could get a Pay (sky) or FTA Satellite if they wanted it?

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

I haven't seen any STBs for DTT in any of the UK retail outlets over here.

Do they have them for sale in Liverpool? Well they will not have them here then!

As I said, the Picnic box does work here, but is not for sale here.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

If RTENL identified a STB product and approved a number of DTV sets that are compatible, they could launch the service, and announce a date for ASO of at least their major transmitters. ASO should be by the end of 2010 for those transmitters already running tests. If people know, they can get the product in time, and they will.

They could do that in the morning but no one has given them the direction.
How much did those tx'es cost? and practically nobody bar the readers of this forum and associated word of mouth are watching...

It's typical of the public service mandarins to be honest.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Do they have them for sale in Liverpool? Well they will not have them here then!

As I said, the Picnic box does work here, but is not for sale here.

If I walked into a UK retailer (in Ireland) today I don't think I would find an MPEG 2 STB for sale (I don't know what picnic is). So if One Vision launches or RTÉ NL decides on which boxes is best, then I am assuming that the retailers could begin to sell MPEG 4 STB with out effecting their stock of 0 MPEG 2 STBs.

The problem lies more in the fact that they are selling new TV sets with MPEG 2 and only some with MPEG4.

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

If I walked into a UK retailer (in Ireland) today I don't think I would find an MPEG 2 STB for sale (I don't know what picnic is). So if One Vision launches or RTÉ NL decides on which boxes is best, then I am assuming that the retailers could begin to sell MPEG 4 STB with out effecting their stock of 0 MPEG 2 STBs.

The problem lies more in the fact that they are selling new TV sets with MPEG 2 and only some with MPEG4.

The Picnic is mentioned in other threads. It is a STB from Sagem with built in MPEG4 designed for Sky's PICNIC service which has been dropped. They apparently work with the Irish DTT service. However, Currys who sell them are not offering them here.

The problem with UK retailer and Irish retailers is that they sell TVs with no mention of MPEG4 but describe the sets as HDREADY, with DDT tuner.

Sony has a website that includes the technical spec of its products but does not mention MPEG4 whether the set has it or not. It is like selling a car and not mentioning whether it is diesel or petrol, or left or right hand drive.

Why, oh why?

Apogee

Elmo wrote: »

Very few people are relying on Terrestrial in this country. 25% is not much.

It's odd that someone who keeps harping on about public service broadcasting is so quick to disregard a quarter of the viewing population - the very ones who are most reliant on the Irish terrestrial channels.

Elmo wrote:

I assumed everyone could get a Pay (sky) or FTA Satellite if they wanted it?

No, they can't.

The Cush

Antenna wrote: »

Not correct, as the main German channels still seem to be going strong in analogue (as well as digital) on Astra 19.2 ?

ARD and ZDF plan to switchoff their Astra analogue channels in April 2012, none of the other German broadcasters have announced a switchoff date but are expected to switchoff at the same time.
There are up to 40 analogue channels still broadcasting in analogue from Astra 19 deg. E.

Elmo wrote: »

Very few people are relying on Terrestrial in this country. 25% is not much.


Don't they have to move over to Mpeg 4 services in other countries anyway?

25% of households is still a lot of people (approx. 1.1 million) and this does not include the second or more TVs in a pay-tv household connected only to an aerial.

MPEG-4 is not mandated but the potential users of the freed up UHF spectrum (mobile etc.) would like a larger chunk - 750 to 862 MHz made available (currently 790 - 862 MHz) and would like to see a migration to MPEG-4 from MPEG-2 to give the same or more services in less spectrum. Broadcasters are reluctant to give up more spectrum and reduce the flexibility for future developments HDTV, 3DTV etc.
Croatia planned to launch its DTT service earlier this year using MPEG-2.

Elmo wrote: »

(I don't know what picnic is).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_Picnic using a Sagem IDT81-SD picnic box

Elmo

Apogee wrote: »

It's odd that someone who keeps harping on about public service broadcasting is so quick to disregard a quarter of the viewing population - the very ones who are most reliant on the Irish terrestrial channels.

Sorry what I was pointing out was the fact that unlike the UK and much more like other EU countries Ireland has a high take up of Pay television services. That is all.

As you know I keep going on about these 25% of the population some of whom can't get Satellite and most of whom can't get Cable (can they get MMDS?). One Vision (like Sky and UPC, and even analogue) will be available to them last as per usual. IMO RTÉ NL and their partners (government, BAI, ComReg, OneVision) should concentrate on roling out DTT services to those 25% since they are the 25% most effected. (Of course everyone else keeps on pointing out how that would not make business scene, but then I amn't interested in business scene, I am talking about a country fullly covered).

BTW How much of the country can get "test" DTT in the Country?

Elmo

The Cush wrote: »

25% of households is still a lot of people (approx. 1.1 million) and this does not include the second or more TVs in a pay-tv household connected only to an aerial.

25% of households does not equal 25% of the population. It could be more or less of the population. It also includes those receiving spill over broadcasts from the UK.

The problem with UK retailer and Irish retailers is that they sell TVs with no mention of MPEG4 but describe the sets as HDREADY, with DDT tuner.

MPEG4 is getting more prominence in shops at the moment I notice at least 5 MPEG4 sets in Harvey Normans.

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

MPEG4 is getting more prominence in shops at the moment I notice at least 5 MPEG4 sets in Harvey Normans.

Not really. Currys and PC World [same company] do not know anything about Irish TV from their advertising. Power City advertised some TVs as being 'Irish Digital TV Compatible' a few months ago but have dropped the reference since.

RTENL have not approved any TV or set top boxes yet. The problem is that no hardware is approved and available. Some existing stuff works, but not necessarily completely with all functions.

Harvey Norman is Australian.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Harvey Norman is Australian.

Are they sourcing their TVs from Australia? I was just point out that in that shop that have a big label on several TVs stating that it is MPEG4.

RTENL have not approved any TV or set top boxes yet. The problem is that no hardware is approved and available. Some existing stuff works, but not necessarily completely with all functions.

Is RTÉ NL using a different type of signal? Why should they have to approve a TV or STB for MPEG4 surely if it is MPEG4 is is compatible with RTÉ NL. This sounds like retailers (even when TVs and STBs are approved) will still have a certain amount of MPEG4 TVs not compatible with RTÉ NLs DTT.

The Cush

Elmo wrote: »

25% of households does not equal 25% of the population. It could be more or less of the population. It also includes those receiving spill over broadcasts from the UK.

The 25.3% of households is a ComReg number - 370,000 homes with an approx. average of 3 people per house (some households less, some more) who receive the Irish PSB channels (no pay tv) by aerial. It does not break it down further i.e. freesat, freeview or UK analogue.

craoltoir

A lot of people may be prepared to change from there existing source of PayTV when the OneVision offering is available. They propose to offer 29 channels for €9.99 a month which is considerably cheaper than other offers.

There are of course people who will be happy with the Irish public service channels only, although most people will probably want the British channels as well.

http://www.bci.ie/DTT/one_vision/app1.pdf

Elmo

craoltoir wrote: »

A lot of people may be prepared to change from there existing source of PayTV when the OneVision offering is available. They propose to offer 29 channels for €9.99 a month which is considerably cheaper than other offers.

There are of course people who will be happy with the Irish public service channels only, although most people will probably want the British channels as well.

http://www.bci.ie/DTT/one_vision/app1.pdf

IMO most people just want RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4, BBC 1, BBC 2, UTV/ITV and Channel 4. The rest of the English channel could be replicated by Irish companies e.g. 3E is Sky One and E4 in reality there is nothing to suggest that a FTA broadcaster could not provide a similar service to that of the Virgin, Viacom and Sky set of channels. Imagine free TV with the Main 4 UK channels and a number of new Irish Broadcasters V the rip off cable/satellite. DTT is so long coming that UPC and Sky could push their prices down 2 months after the launch of One Vision and not be effected.

The 25.3% of households is a ComReg number - 370,000 homes with an approx. average of 3 people per house (some households less, some more) who receive the Irish PSB channels (no pay tv) by aerial. It does not break it down further i.e. freesat, freeview or UK analogue.

Where are the majority of these homes and will DTT be role out to them First? And can anyone tell me how many homes should be able to recieve DTT tests and how many of them are only using over the air transmissions?

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

Are they sourcing their TVs from Australia? I was just point out that in that shop that have a big label on several TVs stating that it is MPEG4.

It is not where they source them from but their attitude to Ireland. UK suppliers do not know, nor do they want to know, about the Irish market. If it sells in Liverpool, it will sell in Ireland, with a big mark up. Go and compare the prices and specs of what they sell here! [Argos, Currys, etc.]

Elmo wrote: »

Is RTÉ NL using a different type of signal? Why should they have to approve a TV or STB for MPEG4 surely if it is MPEG4 is is compatible with RTÉ NL. This sounds like retailers (even when TVs and STBs are approved) will still have a certain amount of MPEG4 TVs not compatible with RTÉ NLs DTT.

Yes, RTENL are using a different signal, they are using MPEG4 and MHEG5 which is not used by the UK (MPEG4) or France (MHEG5). So French kit will not work, nor will UK kit.

From RTENL -

To conform to the minimum receiver specification the IRD shall be compliant with the following
standards:
1) NorDig 2.0 Basic Profile @ High Definition Level

2) MHEG-5 UK Profile, version 1.06

I do not know what that means, but I am sure that it would be better to know that kit I buy satisfies it. I already have aSony TV that does not have MPEG4, because the was no knowledge about the requiremment for it at the time (Jan 08)

I consider it disgraceful that this information is not being publicised and broadcast by RTE and IBA at the current time. DTT should have been launched by now, and delays by the commercial MUX should have no bearing on the matter. THe Txs have been installed and paid for and are operating.

Why the lack of publicity? Who gains?

Frisian

Antenna wrote: »

1. You're not comparing like with like


The main reason it was no problem in Germany etc was the very high percentage use of satellite and cable. All terrestrial channels available FTA on satellite. Very few people were relying on terrestrial anyway.


2. Not correct, as the main German channels still seem to be going strong in analogue (as well as digital) on Astra 19.2 ?

1. I wasn't comparing! I couldn't compare a country, whose national broadcaster is unable to provide tv tax, sorry license payers with their channels on satellite (not even ftv) without taking out a subscription from a foreign company with a country that is broadcasting in the clear almost right from the beginning of DTH tv (bounded by law, but nevertheless) .
2.Sorry, I was referring to Terrestrial. This is a terrestrial topic, isn't it?

maxg

Elmo wrote: »

BTW How much of the country can get "test" DTT in the Country?

I guess over 80 % are able to receive the irish DTT test.
Map with active DTT transmitters:

http://mpeg4ireland.com/map.php

Elmo

It is called the BAI not the IBA.

Why the lack of publicity? Who gains?

Pay TV providers and a new pay TV service either called ONE VISION and EASY TV.

I guess over 80 % are able to receive the irish DTT test.
Map with active DTT transmitters:

And of that 80% how many are do not have Spillover, Cable, MMDS or Satellite?

Are there any transmitters in the west?

maxg

Elmo wrote: »

And of that 80% how many are do not have Spillover, Cable, MMDS or Satellite?

Are there any transmitters in the west?

It doesn't matter how much of the over 80% are using cable, mmds or satellite for the main tv. Irish DTT is also good for the second , third or fourth tv in the house.

The Cush

Elmo wrote: »

Is RTÉ NL using a different type of signal? Why should they have to approve a TV or STB for MPEG4 surely if it is MPEG4 is is compatible with RTÉ NL. This sounds like retailers (even when TVs and STBs are approved) will still have a certain amount of MPEG4 TVs not compatible with RTÉ NLs DTT.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes, RTENL are using a different signal, they are using MPEG4 and MHEG5 which is not used by the UK (MPEG4) or France (MHEG5). So French kit will not work, nor will UK kit.

From RTENL -

To conform to the minimum receiver specification the IRD shall be compliant with the following
standards:
1) NorDig 2.0 Basic Profile @ High Definition Level

2) MHEG-5 UK Profile, version 1.06

I do not know what that means, but I am sure that it would be better to know that kit I buy satisfies it. I already have aSony TV that does not have MPEG4, because the was no knowledge about the requiremment for it at the time (Jan 08)

At the moment we don't have any approved receivers because we don't have a commercial operator to work with RTE to develop a plan to certify receivers and MPEG-4 is only one part of the story.

Every country launching a DTT service has to decide how the signal will be carried/modulated (DVB-T/DVB-T2, MPEG-2 TS), how the video will be encoded (MPEG-2/MPEG-4), how the audio is encoded (MPEG-1/HE-AAC), will it carry digital text, analogue text, subtitles, signing, audio description etc., will it carry receiver software updates, will there be an interactive element (MHEG-5/MHP), will there be pay-tv (conditional access), will it carry an epg.
All possible elements of the DTT signal are published as seperate standards by the ETSI (and are EU approved) e.g. DVB-T is published as ETSI EN 300 744, Framing structure, channel coding and modulation for digital terrestrial television, MPEG-4 is published as ETSI TS 101 154, Specification for the use of Video and Audio Coding in Broadcasting Applications based on the MPEG-2 Transport Stream.
Countries then take these approved standards and create a common or minimum standard for their country or region e.g. D-Book (UK), Nordig (Scandinavia), DGTVi D-Book (Italy) and ETSI E-Book.

The standard chosen in Ireland is the Nordig common platform (with an Ireland specific Additions and Clarifications Supplement) - probably because Boxer from Sweden were initally chosen as the pay-tv provider here and they use the Nordig standard in Sweden and Denmark.

To ensure that DTT receivers sold in Ireland meet the local minimum specification and are allowed to carry the logo they will have to undergo conformance testing and certification either in-house or contracted out. In the UK freeview and freesat receivers are conformance tested by DTG Testing Ltd. before they can carry the relevant logo. If Boxer had launched here it would have carried out conformance testing in-house. OneVision plans to test in-house and Easy TV planned to use DTG Testing.

When you walk into a tv shop you will see many brands carrying logos for the UK (Digital Tick), TNT/TNT-HD, Boxer, dgtvi (Italy) etc., all approved and certified to carry the logos by the relevent testing organisations.

Elmo

maxg wrote: »

It doesn't matter how much of the over 80% are using cable, mmds or satellite for the main tv. Irish DTT is also good for the second , third or fourth tv in the house.

As are the current over the air analogue transmissions. Lets not forget that currently the only FTA services on DTT are 1, 2, 3 and 4 (Lets face it the IFB channel is unlikely to happen). And the current idea for other channels is to provide pay TV for extra channels. Why not just make sure you pay your current cable, sat etc operator for multi-room viewing. Most people in these areas already have good analogue reception for there second TV, if they want anything extra on these TVs they will have to pay.

Elmo

The Cush wrote: »

To ensure that DTT receivers sold in Ireland meet the local minimum specification and are allowed to carry the logo they will have to undergo conformance testing and certification either in-house or contracted out. In the UK freeview and freesat receivers are conformance tested by DTG Testing Ltd. before they can carry the relevant logo. If Boxer had launched here it would have carried out conformance testing in-house. OneVision plans to test in-house and Easy TV planned to use DTG Testing.

When you walk into a tv shop you will see many brands carrying logos for the UK (Digital Tick), TNT/TNT-HD, Boxer, dgtvi (Italy) etc., all approved and certified to carry the logos by the relevent testing organisations.

Thank you for you clarification. It is nice to see so much money wasted across the European Union in insuring that TVs and STBs are to the standards of each of the different EU countries. I am think that soon the EU will be developing an EU standard for all countries which will cost a whole lot more money to introduce. IMO This is absolutely insane.

One Signal, One TV, One Box, One Test, One Standard.

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

One Signal, One TV, One Box, One Test, One Standard.

Could not agree more. Why does every Gov funded organisation want to get their name on the box. EU Cert. should be enough. Major manufacturers will produce a single design for all europe, so the EU should set the standard for them to build to.

You know it makes sense.