Irish driving test unfair?

bad2dabone · 24-10-2009 03:01PM

i think the test needs a few changes,
my sister took her test in raheny recently I went along with her and waited in the test centre, 19 minutes of actual driving. on a friday afternoon. She passed, but 19 minutes? what kind of an assesment is that?

also no night time driving, no parking into spaces or parallel, no motorway driving etc.

If the test was done in stages, i.e instead of paying 75 quid you pay 150 or 200 and do an hour test in the day and with the same tester you do an hour driving in the dark including a trip to a dual carraigeway where the tester gets an idea of your attitude as well as your skills it would create a better standard of driver.

I think my sister can drive well sometimes, but everytime i'm out with her she does something outrageous behind the wheel.

19 minutes is far too short a time to test someone in my opinion.

Rondolfus · 24-10-2009 03:13PM

bad2dabone wrote: »

i think the test needs a few changes,
my sister took her test in raheny recently I went along with her and waited in the test centre, 19 minutes of actual driving. on a friday afternoon. She passed, but 19 minutes? what kind of an assesment is that?

also no night time driving, no parking into spaces or parallel, no motorway driving etc.

If the test was done in stages, i.e instead of paying 75 quid you pay 150 or 200 and do an hour test in the day and with the same tester you do an hour driving in the dark including a trip to a dual carraigeway where the tester gets an idea of your attitude as well as your skills it would create a better standard of driver.

I think my sister can drive well sometimes, but everytime i'm out with her she does something outrageous behind the wheel.

19 minutes is far too short a time to test someone in my opinion.

You'd be surprised how much a tester can observe in 19 mins of driving. The test is designed to see a wide range of driving skills in a short amount of time. True some people can take the test, tick all the boxes and when they pass, they drive a bit more on the dangerous side. Thats not the tests fault thats the person. If they can drive safely during a test they can drive safely in normal situations. If I take a French oral test and pass with flying colours, but then decide to neglect my French, become complacent and my standards drop, thats my fault. Thats not a problem with the test. People have to take responsibility for their own failings.

leeroybrown · 24-10-2009 04:13PM

bad2dabone wrote: »

i think the test needs a few changes,
my sister took her test in raheny recently I went along with her and waited in the test centre, 19 minutes of actual driving. on a friday afternoon. She passed, but 19 minutes? what kind of an assesment is that?

also no night time driving, no parking into spaces or parallel, no motorway driving etc.

The length issue is just a bit of a red herring. I'd suggest that your sister was just lucky with her test time and the traffic levels so she completed the route quickly. It still covers all the technical driving elements that are required to be tested. When I did my test too I also had quite a quick run but it definitely provided a decent test of the skills that were required to pass.

That said, I completely agree that the number of technical elements covered by the test is too small. My massive problem with the Irish driving test is the lack of any emergency stop. Someone can learn to drive and pass their driving test without ever having had to use controlled hard braking. Adding more driving skills to the test would increase it's length and there's definitely an argument to have additional driving conditions examined.

brian076 · 24-10-2009 08:12PM

bad2dabone wrote: »

also no night time driving, no parking into spaces or parallel, no motorway driving etc.

The problem here would be to get uniformity throughout the country. How could someone in West Kerry or Donegal get access to a motorway?
While some test centres are located where parking spaces are available, there are plenty where parking spaces are limited. Naas for instance has no suitable parking, and there are few if any car parks in the vicinity which could be used.

While being tested at night is also a good idea, what would happen if your test was in June. You'd have to do it at 11pm.

bad2dabone · 24-10-2009 08:56PM

yep makes sense there Brian.

samsamson · 24-10-2009 10:30PM

I was convinced I hadn't passed my test, and walking back into the centre my head was full of "That was so unfair, he wasn't even watching me half the time" etc.

That voice in my head shut up once he slid the certificate of competency across the table though.

I think it's hard not to try and blame others when we make mistakes.

Wishbone Ash · 24-10-2009 11:15PM

bad2dabone wrote: »

including a trip to a dual carraigeway where the tester gets an idea of your attitude as well as your skills

Some of the test routes in Finglas (Dublin) incorporate driving on a dual carriageway.

brian076 · 24-10-2009 11:24PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Some of the test routes in Finglas (Dublin) incorporate driving on a dual carriageway.

Tallaght is the same, you could be on an 80 stretch on the bypass, but it's really the luck of the draw.

While every effort is made to keep the test as standard as possible throughout the country, there are always going to be differences from centre to centre. Even within the same centre there can be differences from route to route, and Tallaght is a good example.

One of the routes is very straight forward where you only encounter 1 roundabout and you're mainly in housing estates, whereas another route involves 5 roundabouts and 2 crossings of the Luas line.

not14talk · 25-10-2009 04:44PM

brian076 wrote: »

The problem here would be to get uniformity throughout the country. How could someone in West Kerry or Donegal get access to a motorway?
While some test centres are located where parking spaces are available, there are plenty where parking spaces are limited. Naas for instance has no suitable parking, and there are few if any car parks in the vicinity which could be used.
.

I see what you are saying but I really think we should follow the UK test with regard to they way they are tested. In their test they can either get parallel park, turn about, emergency stop or reverse around the corner and they have to do two out of the four so in theory a successful candidate will have have all of them mastered before sitting the test. So if they cant find a place to parallel they can do another one of the four but because its part of the test they will have learned how to do it. Seriously Irish people cant parallel park like they will rather pull straight into the spot and try and fix from there.

I also think there should be too add ons to the test like once we have completed the normal test we get a intermediate or restricted licence (and have R plates on the car) and we have to do two other tests to get our full licence with one test being driving at night and another driving on the motorway.

The Big Red Button · 25-10-2009 05:04PM

Lilady wrote: »

There is a few things that I might disagree with but that's personal opinion.. Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around

When reversing around a corner, you should be completely aware of every vehicle, object, person etc in the vicinity of your car. If you don't feel you are aware of what's happening around you when you're reversing, you're probably not using your mirrors correctly. It's a perfectly safe maneuver if done correctly.

Have you passed your test, as a matter of interest?

brian076 · 25-10-2009 05:31PM

not14talk wrote: »

I see what you are saying but I really think we should follow the UK test with regard to they way they are tested. In their test they can either get parallel park, turn about, emergency stop or reverse around the corner and they have to do two out of the four so in theory a successful candidate will have have all of them mastered before sitting the test. So if they cant find a place to parallel they can do another one of the four but because its part of the test they will have learned how to do it. Seriously Irish people cant parallel park like they will rather pull straight into the spot and try and fix from there.

I also think there should be too add ons to the test like once we have completed the normal test we get a intermediate or restricted licence (and have R plates on the car) and we have to do two other tests to get our full licence with one test being driving at night and another driving on the motorway.

I agree with you, I think the UK system makes more sense, and there is a possibility that a graduated licence will be introduced here, the RSA are looking at it at the moment, but I don't think motorway or night time driving is being considered.

Ideally everybody should be re-tested every 10 years, a 30 minute test should not entitle you to a licence for life. This will never happen with the current testers, as they can't manage to keep a reasonable backlog with just learners, but it's something that may be considered in the future.

I wonder if you took a random sample of 100 full licence holders who've held a licence for 5 years or more, how many would pass a driving test, without taking any lessons. I'd be surprised if it was anymore than 10%.

Wishbone Ash · 25-10-2009 06:50PM

brian076 wrote: »

IIdeally everybody should be re-tested every 10 years

It would be a bit timeconsuming for those of us who hold multiple catgeories especially if it involved theory test and practical test.

brian076 wrote:

I wonder if you took a random sample of 100 full licence holders who've held a licence for 5 years or more, how many would pass a driving test, without taking any lessons. I'd be surprised if it was anymore than 10%.

I'd agree but ironically those people have much cheaper insurance as they are much less likely to be involved in an accident.

Young men statistically have a greater chance of passing a driving test than any other category but are also stastistically more likely to die in a traffic accident.

WexCan · 26-10-2009 12:02AM

For the UK test, the emergency stop is done on one out of three tests. The four manoeuvres are the left reverse (around a corner), turn in the road, reverse park (bay) and reverse park (road/parallel) of which any two will be done on test, though only one of the parking manoeuvres. If the test centre has bays, you'll usually get the bay park at the start of the test then either turn in road or left reverse. I'm surprised parking isn't covered in the Irish test.

In the "mainland" UK we don't have R plates like certain places, notably Northern Ireland, though there is the option for newly qualified drivers to use P plates to show that they are inexperienced. The R system in Northern Ireland is controversial as it limits new drivers to something like 45mph on all roads, including motorways.

Most people here use their ADIs car for their test, waiting times are generally no more than two-three weeks, though cancellations can bring that forward quite a bit. I had a month between each of my tests, though I could have taken them a week apart.

After the test there's the option of taking Pass Plus, which covers night driving, bad weather, town driving, motorways, dual carriageways and rural roads. It's similar to the likes of the Hibernian course but it's recognised by many insurers - I recouped my fee in the insurance discount. It's not a test, simply a "tick the boxes" with your instructor but it was useful for me.

littlepink · 26-10-2009 12:47AM

jordainius wrote: »

I know that some people need to vent from time to time, but some people need to realise that the reason "Person X" failed the test is because "Person X" was not good enough to pass the test.quote]

I think if you read through some of the posts on the 'successful' thread you will see that some people are passed with faults that others are failed for. The driving test and it's testers has to be like everything else- imperfect. Why do some think that driving testers are these super human individuals who never make mistakes? Of course there are some people who have been failed but shouldn't have and some who have passed that shouldn't. There are some testers who have a stricter/more lenient interpretation of the 'rules' than others and there are some testers who will subconsciously look favourably/unfavourably at some candidates and be kinder/harsher in their judgement of them.

gooch2k9 · 03-11-2009 11:25PM

In letterkenny, i feel that girls are given a far easier time. My two cousins tested: no more than 30mins for the tests combined. A friend 10mins and back to the center. Myself, a 18yo male, 3 tests none below 40mins. How is that fair...good luck to anyone not going to make more than 8 mistakes in that period. You'd be lucky to make four in the shorter periods as your concentration lapses over time.

robbie_998 · 03-11-2009 11:30PM

its fair enough... i dont think its fair that in the UK they do a Emergency stop and here in the Rep they dont.

I also think that some sort of driving on a dual carriage way or motor way would also make the test more fair here as it seems that people do need it.

Permabear · 04-11-2009 01:38AM

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robbie_998 · 04-11-2009 09:57AM

donegalfella wrote: »

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true which is why i also mentioned Dual Carriage ways too, they can be basically the same at times with a few small differences like speed etc.

and with the thread we had before a lot of people could do with it.

but as for the OP here... at the moment i think it is fair enough as it.

Permabear · 04-11-2009 12:40PM

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GreeBo · 04-11-2009 12:50PM

gooch2k9 wrote: »

good luck to anyone not going to make more than 8 mistakes in that period. You'd be lucky to make four in the shorter periods as your concentration lapses over time.

:eek:
So you think the test should be shorter as the longer it is the more chance you have of making a mistake?

Cabaal · 04-11-2009 01:15PM

GreeBo wrote: »

:eek:
So you think the test should be shorter as the longer it is the more chance you have of making a mistake?

Crazy logic indeed, sure by that logic everyone should drive no more then 10min a day as this would reduce there chances of being in a accident as they wouldn't be out on the road as long :rolleyes:

Anyway, in my view the test is actually abit too easy and doesn't cover enough

robbie_998 · 04-11-2009 01:33PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

ok fair enough but again i do think for a test you should be going a bit faster than 50KM/H around housing estates and a spend a bit more time on a road of major importance and/or reach a speed of 80KM/H

Permabear · 04-11-2009 01:42PM

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GreeBo · 04-11-2009 03:56PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Anyway, in my view the test is actually abit too easy and doesn't cover enough

Agreed.
Anyone who cant pass the test is not fit to drive.
If you are failing because you fail some maneuvers then go practice, thats all it takes.
If you are failing because you have a multitude of lesser faults then you are incompetent. If you cant drive "by the book" for the 40 minutes max the test takes when you know that you are being graded on this, then god knows what you are like when you are out on your own.

Why on earth you would grip the steering wheel incorrectly during a test is beyond me. If thats where your judgment leads you then I dont fancy my chances being on the same road as you.

brian076 · 04-11-2009 05:10PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Agreed.
Anyone who cant pass the test first time is not fit to drive.
If you are failing because you fail some maneuvers then go practice, thats all it takes.
If you are failing because you have a multitude of lesser faults then you are incompetent. If you cant drive "by the book" for the 40 minutes max the test takes when you know that you are being graded on this, then god knows what you are like when you are out on your own.

Why on earth you would grip the steering wheel incorrectly during a test is beyond me. If thats where your judgment leads you then I dont fancy my chances being on the same road as you.

I think your views on this are a bit simplistic. Assuming you have a full licence, did you manage to complete the test without any faults?

If you did well done, but assuming you picked up a couple of faults, it's quite possible that you could have easily picked up a few more which would put you over the limit.

Many people fail the test, not because they're particularly bad or dangerous drivers, but because they're very nervous when being tested, and don't drive the way they normally would. They pick up faults for lack of progress or poor gear changes, which they probably wouldn't do in normal driving.

Very few people actually get marked for "holding the steering wheel wrong", it's not something testers are that interested in, most faults for steering occur when letting the wheel go when straightening up, or holding the gear lever too long which leads to one handed seering.

No one drives perfectly all the time, and I'd be surprised if you could manage to complete 35 minutes driving without some lapse of concentration, which in most cases doesn't lead to anything serious, but in a test situation could be the difference between passing and failing.

DrivingInfo · 04-11-2009 05:35PM

brian076 wrote: »

I think your views on this are a bit simplistic. Assuming you have a full licence, did you manage to complete the test without any faults?

If you did well done, but assuming you picked up a couple of faults, it's quite possible that you could have easily picked up a few more which would put you over the limit.

Many people fail the test, not because they're particularly bad or dangerous drivers, but because they're very nervous when being tested, and don't drive the way they normally would. They pick up faults for lack of progress or poor gear changes, which they probably wouldn't do in normal driving.

Very few people actually get marked for "holding the steering wheel wrong", it's not something testers are that interested in, most faults for steering occur when letting the wheel go when straightening up, or holding the gear lever too long which leads to one handed seering.

No one drives perfectly all the time, and I'd be surprised if you could manage to complete 35 minutes driving without some lapse of concentration, which in most cases doesn't lead to anything serious, but in a test situation could be the difference between passing and failing.

Well said and I would back this up.

greyc · 04-11-2009 05:38PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Agreed.
Anyone who cant pass the test first time is not fit to drive.

That's a stupid statement to make. People fail their test for a multitude of reasons, not always because they're incompetent.
I'd much prefer to share the road with someone who's invested time and money into learning to drive properly, whether they pass their test first time or not, then some boy racer who's driven artificially for 30 mins and got lucky.

GreeBo · 04-11-2009 05:43PM

greyc wrote: »

That's a stupid statement to make. People fail their test for a multitude of reasons, not always because they're incompetent.
I'd much prefer to share the road with someone who's invested time and money into learning to drive properly, whether they pass their test first time or not, then some boy racer who's driven artificially for 30 mins and got lucky.

My point is that if you dont pass it the first time you take it then at that point you are not fit to drive.
I dont mean that if you fail the first time thats it. I think I clarified that by saying "If you are failing because you fail some maneuvers then go practice,"
Sorry, it was a bit ambigious.

GreeBo · 04-11-2009 06:26PM

brian076 wrote: »

I think your views on this are a bit simplistic. Assuming you have a full licence, did you manage to complete the test without any faults?

First time and I think I had 3.

brian076 wrote: »

If you did well done, but assuming you picked up a couple of faults, it's quite possible that you could have easily picked up a few more which would put you over the limit.

and if I had picked up too many that I would be an incompetent driver. Isnt that the point of a test? To test your competency?

brian076 wrote: »

Many people fail the test, not because they're particularly bad or dangerous drivers, but because they're very nervous when being tested, and don't drive the way they normally would. They pick up faults for lack of progress or poor gear changes, which they probably wouldn't do in normal driving.

2 points I would argue with that.
- "Most" people make more effort when they are being tested than when they are not.
- People fail because they have faults. If you have these faults when you are trying your hardest, what are you like when you are not trying your hardest?
I have faults, Im sure I do, but some are subjective (making progress) and some are factual (holding steering wheel incorrectly)

brian076 wrote: »

No one drives perfectly all the time, and I'd be surprised if you could manage to complete 35 minutes driving without some lapse of concentration, which in most cases doesn't lead to anything serious, but in a test situation could be the difference between passing and failing.

It will only lead to failing if you have multiple lesser faults or a single big fault. Why would you want to excuse someone who has big faults? At the time when they are supposed to be trying their hardest, and arguably will never be trying that hard again, they are making severe mistakes?

brian076 · 04-11-2009 06:40PM

It's true that passing the test provides you with a Cert of Competency, but failing it gives you a Cert of Failure, not a Cert of Incompetency. You don't need a multitude of faults to fail, 9 will do, and for many people who freeze, or fall to pieces in any test situation, this is a stumbling block.

Just because you might "try harder" doesn't always result in better driving. A lot of people fail their test because they try too hard. It's quite common for people to make elementary mistakes due to over thinking, which leads to mistakes they wouldn't normally make. They're so busy thinking about everything they shouldn't do, they forget the obvious.

Irish driving test unfair?

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