Irish driving test unfair?

GreeBo

brian076 wrote: »

That doesn't mean you're unfit to drive, as you stated. It may mean you can't drive unaccompanied,

So if you fail you are not competent enough to drive a car on your own.

brian076 wrote: »

but your assertion that anyone who fails their test 1st time is a danger on the road is wide of the mark.

Firstly I didnt say that, I said that they are unfit to drive. As the test they have just failed has proven.

brian076 wrote: »

A lot of people fail their test because they try too hard. It's quite common for people to make elementary mistakes due to over thinking, which leads to mistakes they wouldn't normally make. They're so busy thinking about everything they shouldn't do, they forget the obvious.

Sorry, but you are not going to convince me that someone holds the steering wheel at the bottom because they are too busy thinking about other things.

GreeBo

brian076 wrote: »

It's true that passing the test provides you with a Cert of Competency, but failing it gives you a Cert of Failure, not a Cert of Incompetency.

Ok Im hoping you are taking the piss here, but my last effort on this follows.
If you fail to achieve a cert of competency then that means you are incompetent.
The Cambridge English Dictionary seems to agree with me.

competent adjective
/ˈkɒm.pɪ.tənt/US pronunciation symbol/ˈkɑːm.pə.t ̬ənt/ adj
able to do something well
a competent secretary/horse-rider/cook
I wouldn't say he was brilliant but he is competent at his job.
Opposite: incompetent

Unless you are aware of another state that lives between being incompetent and competent? incontinent perhaps?

brian076 wrote: »

You don't need a multitude of faults to fail, 9 will do, and for many people who freeze, or fall to pieces in any test situation, this is a stumbling block.

Yes 9 faults.
At best thats a fault every 5 mins and in most cases a much higher rate than that. Do these same people freeze on hill starts in real life? Because I dont want to be behind them if they do.

brian076

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry, but you are not going to convince me that someone holds the steering wheel at the bottom because they are too busy thinking about other things.

You seem to be fixated with the steering wheel. Very few people incur faults on the test for steering, but a lot of people fail for observation, progress, clutch, gears & position. Many of these faults occur because the candidate is so busy thinking about what the tester is looking for, that they neglect to do something obvious.

About 2 months ago, a girl failed her test for going thru an amber light. At the time she was so pre-occupied checking her left mirror for the lane change at the junction, that she only spotted the light at the last moment, at which time it was too late to stop, resulting in a Grade 3 fault.

With a lot of pleading with the RSA, she managed to get a cancellation 2 weeks later, and passed the test 2nd time with 1 fault less than you.

Would you say she was incompetent? or maybe a bit unucky.

Reloc8

GreeBo wrote: »

Agreed.
Anyone who cant pass the test first time is not fit to drive.
If you are failing because you fail some maneuvers then go practice, thats all it takes.
If you are failing because you have a multitude of lesser faults then you are incompetent. If you cant drive "by the book" for the 40 minutes max the test takes when you know that you are being graded on this, then god knows what you are like when you are out on your own.

Why on earth you would grip the steering wheel incorrectly during a test is beyond me. If thats where your judgment leads you then I dont fancy my chances being on the same road as you.

Taken literally surely that's just silly - fail it first time, go away and practice, get better, pass it second time...or third time...and what renders that person not fit to drive.

Unless you meant not fit to drive at the time of testing, which would make sense.

Otherwise you're precluding the possibility of improvement.

gooch2k9

I was speaking regarding the driving test

GreeBo

Reloc8 wrote: »

Unless you meant not fit to drive at the time of testing, which would make sense.

Bingo.
"If you are failing because you fail some maneuvers then go practice, thats all it takes."
All I am saying is that if you fail a competency test then you are incompetent at the time of the test.

GreeBo

brian076 wrote: »

You seem to be fixated with the steering wheel.

Im responding to the OP thats states they sometimes hold the steering wheel incorrectly and that its unfair that they be failed for this.

brian076 wrote: »

About 2 months ago, a girl failed her test for going thru an amber light. At the time she was so pre-occupied checking her left mirror for the lane change at the junction, that she only spotted the light at the last moment, at which time it was too late to stop, resulting in a Grade 3 fault.

IMO if you are ever too pre-occupied to notice the colour of the lights in the junction you are about to pass through then you are not a competent driver.

brian076 wrote: »

Would you say she was incompetent? or maybe a bit unucky.

Unlucky that the light was amber the first time and her level of awareness was found to be wanting or lucky that it didnt happen the second time? You tell me.

I'm fully sure there are lots of people who are terrible drivers but either through sheer luck or "faking" it for the test, the pass and go on to be horrific drivers for the rest of their lives.

wayne0308

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry, but you are not going to convince me that someone holds the steering wheel at the bottom because they are too busy thinking about other things.

That's a very specific fault that your focusing on. I personally do not handle test situations very well (shakes,sweats etc.). I'm a learner driver, and being very nervous at any stage, whether it is due to traffic or over thinking, it is very easy for me to make mistakes with car control, observation etc. I think the person who you were replying to didn't mean obvious errors that you will learn not to do in your first lesson.

For example, in a situation that I am stopped on a slope on the approach to a roundabout I can usually tackle it reasonably well. But if I have a lot of traffic behind me, my hill start can suffer quite a bit, and in order not to allow the car to conk I tend to over-rev the engine and leave the clutch out VERY slowly. (This can be an instant fail, and by over-revving I'm talking about 3000-3500 revs). This can lead to marks against progress and clutch too I think.

Experience matters. But sometimes no matter how much experience you have you will still make mistakes if you are nervous, not just obvious ones like you mentioned. But errors like clutch control, driving too slowly, etc.

In response to the OP, the impression I have of the driving test from talking with my instructor and seeing how it's marked leads me to think that it is a fair test, tough but fair. I'm booking mine soon after I begin my next block of lessons so I suppose I'll find out first hand soon.

brian076

GreeBo wrote: »

Im responding to the OP thats states they sometimes hold the steering wheel incorrectly and that its unfair that they be failed for this.


IMO if you are ever too pre-occupied to notice the colour of the lights in the junction you are about to pass through then you are not a competent driver.


Unlucky that the light was amber the first time and her level of awareness was found to be wanting or lucky that it didnt happen the second time? You tell me.

I'm fully sure there are lots of people who are terrible drivers but either through sheer luck or "faking" it for the test, the pass and go on to be horrific drivers for the rest of their lives.

Sorry but your whole attitude to this is too black and white. If you go through an amber or red light, you've been incompetent in that manouevre, it doesn't necessarily mean you're an "incompetent driver". If you fail your test today and pass it tomorrow you don't suddenly go from being incompetent to competent overnight.
I'm quite sure that at some time since you passed your test you've made a mistake while driving that could have resulted in a fail in a test situation. I'm also quite sure that you'd be the last person in the world to admit that you're incompetent. But if you follow your logic, on that occasion or occasions, you were.
As I previously stated, when you pass you get a Cert of Competency, when you fail you get a Statement of Failure, to take a literal meaning from the dictionary that just because you didn't get a Cert of Competency means you are incompetent is just playing with words.

When you fail your test it means that you have not achieved the level of competency required to pass it, it doesn't mean that your totally incompetent.

greyc

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok Im hoping you are taking the piss here, but my last effort on this follows.
If you fail to achieve a cert of competency then that means you are incompetent.
The Cambridge English Dictionary seems to agree with me.

competent adjective
/ˈkɒm.pɪ.tənt/US pronunciation symbol/ˈkɑːm.pə.t ̬ənt/ adj
able to do something well
a competent secretary/horse-rider/cook
I wouldn't say he was brilliant but he is competent at his job.
Opposite: incompetent

Unless you are aware of another state that lives between being incompetent and competent? incontinent perhaps?


Yes 9 faults.
At best thats a fault every 5 mins and in most cases a much higher rate than that. Do these same people freeze on hill starts in real life? Because I dont want to be behind them if they do.

Perhaps it's not your intention, but you come across as being smug and sanctimonious and typical of the full licence holder who either can't remember ever having to go throught the learning stage or more likely was born just about perfect.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one who hopes they're never in front of you.

GreeBo

brian076 wrote: »

you have not achieved the level of competency required to pass it

Thats what incompetent means, that you are not competent.

GreeBo

wayne0308 wrote: »

That's a very specific fault that your focusing on.

Im focusing on it as thats the example the OP gave to indicate that the test was unfair.

wayne0308 wrote: »

I personally do not handle test situations very well (shakes,sweats etc.). I'm a learner driver, and being very nervous at any stage, whether it is due to traffic or over thinking, it is very easy for me to make mistakes with car control, observation etc.

Ok and thats fine. But it would make sense to me that you would not be out driving on the roads either alone or with someone else if you are still liable to make mistakes regarding observation and control. I know you are eager to get out on the road, we all are/were but if are still at the nervous stage then maybe you are not ready? After a year or so of driving you will wonder why on earth you had any issues with gear changes etc, so why should you be allowed to drive when you still have these issues?

wayne0308 wrote: »

I think the person who you were replying to didn't mean obvious errors that you will learn not to do in your first lesson.

Thats just it. They did mean that as they specifically said they hold the steering wheel incorrectly. But yet they think these things shouldnt matter as they dont think they are important. My whole point is that if you cant be bothered to do these simple things correctly for the duration of the test then god knows what you drive like when you are out on your own.

wayne0308 wrote: »

For example, in a situation that I am stopped on a slope on the approach to a roundabout I can usually tackle it reasonably well. But if I have a lot of traffic behind me, my hill start can suffer quite a bit,

To me this means that you are not yet able to drive competently. Its not a slight against you or your family, its just a fact. You are not a good enough driver yet. There are plenty of people like this who unfortunately already have their licence, I dont see why we should add to this list.

wayne0308 wrote: »

Experience matters. But sometimes no matter how much experience you have you will still make mistakes if you are nervous, not just obvious ones like you mentioned. But errors like clutch control, driving too slowly, etc.

Do you not agree that you would be less likely to be nervous during your test if you were a more experience driver?
When you have more experience you will learn that you can change gears and control your car almost subconsciously. This leaves your mind freer to deal with everything else thats going on outside the car. In learning psychology its called fully pre-programmed mode.

For some reason in Ireland we think its ok to book 5 lessons, a few evenings in the car park with the parents and then go on to do the test. I just happen to think thats wrong.

GreeBo

greyc wrote: »

And I'm sure I'm not the only one who hopes they're never in front of you.

Well if you are not in complete control of your car then I hope you are no where near anyone.
If you are able to control your car then you (and everyone else) have little to worry about.

greyc wrote: »

Perhaps it's not your intention, but you come across as being smug and sanctimonious and typical of the full licence holder who either can't remember ever having to go throught the learning stage or more likely was born just about perfect.

Im pretty sure I havent made a single smug remark actually. But if you want to descend into childish comments, go right ahead, on your own.

oh and fwiw, I was born perfect.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

conf101

Putting it in completely black and white terms and saying that someone who fails the test is completely incompetent to drive is completely unrealistic and unfair. A test is a completely different driving environment and people make silly mistakes when under pressure and can also be unlucky on the day, with awkward traffic situations or with an overly fussy tester.

But as far as I'm concerned the opposite is also true. To have the attitude that once you pass the test you're a fully competent driver is also a misguided attitude. I think that once you pass the test you're safe to drive on your own but (in most cases) you still have a lot to learn and the more you drive the more you learn!

GreeBo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ok, so they are not competent. Is that better?
Im baffled how you can argue this point when they fail a test to prove competency?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

A single grade two fault doesnt fail you anything. As you well know the table below shows what you need to do with grade 2 faults to fail.
I dont think someone who hits the curb 4 times (or in fact 1 time when they are trying their best knowing that they cannot hit the curb) is a competent driver.

# 4 of the same grade 2 faults for a single aspect.
# 6 or more grade 2 faults under the same heading.
# 9 or more grade 2 faults overall.

wayne0308

GreeBo wrote: »

To me this means that you are not yet able to drive competently. Its not a slight against you or your family, its just a fact. You are not a good enough driver yet. There are plenty of people like this who unfortunately already have their licence, I dont see why we should add to this list.

I completely agree with you, I'm most certainly not in the category of people who would be labeled as competent, as of yet at least. I hope to be someday in the near future. (working hard on that at the moment ) and not sure where my family came into that though?

But I hope you can see my point that a driving test is a very unique situation to be in so, even with experience some people will tend to make mistakes that they wouldn't usually make due to nerves. I heard that the testers try to ease the person into the test though which would help.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ztoical

There is a huge difference between driving and driving for the test. When I was learning my instructor told me to focus on learning to drive and not focus or worry about the test at that stage. When I finally got a date for my test I went back to my instructor and had "test" lessons the week of my test which made me super nervous and I'm not a nervous tester. On test day I made stupid mistakes that I'd never made before or since when driving. I messed up the engine check which was a shocker as I'm well able to not only point out the parts of the engine but fix most of them as well if needed to but on test day I felt I had to rush through everything and got mixed up and made silly mistakes. Failed by two grade twos, put in for another test got less then three months later and passed with like 3 grade 2's. Got the same day and time of day as test number one and same route and it lasted the same amount of time but different tester. He thought it was my first test and couldn't believe me when I said I'd failed before. Nerves and test experience can play a big part.

Yes there are people who are unfit to drive but saying someone is incompetent because they've failed a driving test is very very black and white and we live in a full colour world

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ztoical

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

+ 1 Just cus you've passed your test doesn't mean your a great driver and should stop learning. Thanks in part of this forum I've adopted the attitude that driving is a life long skill and I still check threads on this forum that I think will help me improve my driving skills.

GreeBo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The current test doesnt prove that you are a good driver, it does however give you the opportunity to prove that you are not.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No, someone who fails a literacy test would be illiterate.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, I believe that if you are a competent driver you should be able to move your car without hitting any stationary objects. Its hardly a very high standard to aim for.

GreeBo

wayne0308 wrote: »

I completely agree with you, I'm most certainly not in the category of people who would be labeled as competent, as of yet at least. I hope to be someday in the near future. (working hard on that at the moment ) and not sure where my family came into that though?

Certain people on this thread seem to take great offence at the word incompetent. Its not a derogatory term, its a statement about ones ability.

wayne0308 wrote: »

But I hope you can see my point that a driving test is a very unique situation to be in so, even with experience some people will tend to make mistakes that they wouldn't usually make due to nerves. I heard that the testers try to ease the person into the test though which would help.

Agreed, thats why you are allowed to have multiple faults and still pass, depending on their severity.
As demonstrated above, you can hit the curb up to 4 times and still pass. :rolleyes:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

DrivingInfo

On the day of your test you are required to show a level of capability/competency. If you hit a kerb you can pass BUT if you hit the kerb HARD you will most certainly FAIL.

You should require the information needed to pass the test and on the day of your test show that you can apply that information in your driving.

If you fail you did not show the required level of capability/competency. This doesn't mean you are overall incompetent.

Regards

GreeBo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes somebody who fails a literacy test is illiterate.
Would you class someone who gets 1% illiterate? Im guessing you would. So please tell me where you draw the line. I draw mine at the passing grade.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There are obviously distinctions on many levels, but there are also commonalities; for example, in neither case were you in full control of the vehicle.

GreeBo

DrivingInfo wrote: »

If you fail you did not show the required level of capability/competency. This doesn't mean you are overall incompetent

Exactly.
Some people on this thread seem to think that being classed as incompetent at driving is akin to being called some sort of retard. Its not. Its a measurement of skill, or rather the lack of skill.

For all those people here is some advice.
If you dont understand the meaning of a word then look it up, dont go complaining at people who use it correctly. That just makes you ignorant.

brian076

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly.
Some people on this thread seem to think that being classed as incompetent at driving is akin to being called some sort of retard. Its not. Its a measurement of skill, or rather the lack of skill.

For all those people here is some advice.
If you dont understand the meaning of a word then look it up, dont go complaining at people who use it correctly. That just makes you ignorant.

Well thanks very much, but if I'm looking for advice from someone you'd be near the end of the queue.

But for what it's worth here's a bit of advice for you: before making sweeping statements such as: "Anyone who cant pass the test first time is not fit to drive." consider that there may be people reading this thread who failed recently, and such a stupid comment isn't going to endear them to anything you have to say.

If this wasn't what you really meant, use the edit function.

GreeBo

brian076 wrote: »

Well thanks very much, but if I'm looking for advice from someone you'd be near the end of the queue.

:rolleyes:

brian076 wrote: »

If this wasn't what you really meant, use the edit function.

"Anyone who cant pass the test is not fit to drive."
I hope thats clearer now.

brian076 wrote: »

consider that there may be people reading this thread who failed recently, and such a stupid comment isn't going to endear them to anything you have to say.

Perhaps it will spur them on to learn how to drive correctly so that next time they do pass their test.
A little bit like I mentioned back here
"If you are failing because you fail some maneuvers then go practice, thats all it takes.
If you are failing because you have a multitude of lesser faults then you are incompetent."

Earn your licence <SNIP>, we have a pathetically simple test in this country. Dont be in a rush to take it before you are ready.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.