Irish driving test unfair?

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

rcdk1

No offence but you failed your test on your bad habits. What other people have or haven't done is irrelevant.

As to whether these are or are not bad habits, that's for the instructor/tester to decide. It is after all his job to evaluate your driving.

LimeFruitGum

Well, I do sometimes do the same thing, but the inspector wants to see your hands in the usual 10-to-2 position.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wishbone Ash

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your personal opinion is totally irrelevant. What society would conduct any type of tests based on personal opinions?

sashafierce wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Another personal opinion!

sashafierce wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I don't see the relevance of this statement. Your driving test is based on an assessment of your skills as presented during your driving test. What happens before or after the test has absolutely no relevance to the actual driving test.

HydeRoad

Besides which, you are trained by your instructor how to hold the steering wheel. If you do not demonstrate to the examiner that you trained well with simple habits like these, then it calls into question how well you took on board all the rest of your training.

Personally, I think the test is not quite strict enough. But to enable people to be trained to a higher standard, there would really need to be two tests, a 'half way' test, with restrictions on successful applicants, followed some appropriate time later by a much harder test.

There are far too many people driving round in a daydream, who seem to think that standards of any kind are a total irrelevance, and they cause untold congestion, delay and danger to other road users.

powerfade

My only problem with the Irish driving test s the lack of accountability. I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise, when I asked the tester what this was for he stated that he was not at liberty to tell me. So I obviously made a big mistake, didn't know what it was myself, but the tester would not tell me so I could not go and improve on this section of my driving for whatever caused me to fail. Surely this system is wrong, you have to be told what you did wrong in order to improve??? To the floor, please feel free to point out the flaws in my argument!!:D

rainbowtrout

powerfade wrote: »

My only problem with the Irish driving test s the lack of accountability. I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise, when I asked the tester what this was for he stated that he was not at liberty to tell me. So I obviously made a big mistake, didn't know what it was myself, but the tester would not tell me so I could not go and improve on this section of my driving for whatever caused me to fail. Surely this system is wrong, you have to be told what you did wrong in order to improve??? To the floor, please feel free to point out the flaws in my argument!!:D

but don't they give you a sheet with your fails marked in it and it shows which items you failed on, and in the list of items they underline what you did wrong. That's what I got when I failed mine.

I will agree on the accountability, you have no come back, it's your word against theirs and the best you can get is a resit. One of my tests was abandoned because one of the front indicator lights blew just before or during the test. The examiner got out to check and said it wasn't working so my test would be abandoned and I would get a re-sit for free, which is as good as a fail because I still didn't get a pass. I asked if I could do hand signals and was told no. I thought it woudl be the perfect opportunity to use them, otherwise what is the point in having them?

ztoical

powerfade wrote: »

My only problem with the Irish driving test s the lack of accountability. I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise, when I asked the tester what this was for he stated that he was not at liberty to tell me. So I obviously made a big mistake, didn't know what it was myself, but the tester would not tell me so I could not go and improve on this section of my driving for whatever caused me to fail. Surely this system is wrong, you have to be told what you did wrong in order to improve??? To the floor, please feel free to point out the flaws in my argument!!:D

You do get a sheet indicating in what areas you failed the test. Having the tester go through the test with you opens up a big can of worms in which people could get into arguments with the tester over certain marks and you'd be there all day or worse case someone becomes violent with the tester. The issue with making it easier to appeal is that more and more people would do it thus clogging the system, frankly everyone I know has come out of a failed test and stated it was all the testers fault and they would appeal but after a good nights sleep and some reflection come to their senses.

Failing on a grade three means a serious error, like running a red light or stop sign, that frankly you would hope people would be aware they'd done. Half the issue with the test is people just not being aware when they are making mistakes and the test sheet at least tells you what areas you need work on [gears, roundabouts etc] and people should go away and work improving their driving in those areas rather then being told O you messed up at this point on the test cus in that case they will only focus on that area of the test and not on their overall driving skills.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

leeroybrown

The tester spends about 40 minutes in a car with the learner driver. The only way they can in adequately test their competence is to make them do a broad range of manoeuvring and watch for every little problem. Exhibiting small problems in one specific area or across multiple areas is a perfectly good reason to fail someone. Driving instructors know *exactly* what level of technique is expected and *exactly* what flaws will be penalised. There is no excuse for not putting them right.

Also, I'd consider someone holding their steering wheel at the bottom to be a pretty major flaw in technique.

jollygood

I took the test twice in Ireland and found both times were completely unfair and necessarily strict - in comparison with the english system.

Here I got so many ticks in comparison to the tests I took in England (2). I couldn't resolve the two wildly differing standards. On my last test in Dublin, I honestly drove so much better than the drive I took in England when I passed my test.

What I don't get is I am told in Ireland the testers look down on someone taking their test in an instructors car (or at least used to) whereas this is definitely not the case in the UK. Over there, you are not and never were allowed to drive on your own whilst on a provisional so the majority of people taking their tests would be in an instructors car.

I was in an instructors car both tests in Ireland and tend to blame this fact on why I failed over here.

In any case, I really did find the Irish test to be really really strict to the point of ridiculousness.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jordainius

I know that some people need to vent from time to time, but some people need to realise that the reason "Person X" failed the test is because "Person X" was not good enough to pass the test.

Looking to blame the system or the tester will not help "Person X". "Person X" needs to use the test sheet indicating where they failed and to work on those areas.

The test offers good feedback. For instance, I passed first time, but I was lucky because I had 8 grade 2's. And a similar amount of Grade 1's. I spent the next two weeks practicing on the area's I got the faults on.

OP, bad habits count against good driving. A good driver doesn't have bad habits.

jhegarty

So only fair test I took was the one I passed

jordainius

powerfade wrote: »

My only problem with the Irish driving test s the lack of accountability. I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise, when I asked the tester what this was for he stated that he was not at liberty to tell me. So I obviously made a big mistake, didn't know what it was myself, but the tester would not tell me so I could not go and improve on this section of my driving for whatever caused me to fail. Surely this system is wrong, you have to be told what you did wrong in order to improve??? To the floor, please feel free to point out the flaws in my argument!!:D

If the testers disclosed where the faults occured I guarantee you that 90% of their decisions would be challenged! It would become a case of "my word against the testers" and all kinds of appeals would be lodged, possibly even legal challenges.

In saying that, I am not saying that 90% of testers decisions are challengable. But people who sit driving tests tend to be biased, whereas testers aren't!

Just think of the countless arguments

"What do you mean I touched the kerb?"
"That was a grade 1 fault at most, are you blind?!"
"I was not too close to that oncoming car!"
"I did check my blindspot..."
"My mirrorwork was fine..."
"Are you insane? My progression was fine"

powerfade

jordainius wrote: »

If the testers disclosed where the faults occured I guarantee you that 90% of their decisions would be challenged! It would become a case of "my word against the testers" and all kinds of appeals would be lodged, possibly even legal challenges.

In saying that, I am not saying that 90% of testers decisions are challengable. But people who sit driving tests tend to be biased, whereas testers aren't!

Just think of the countless arguments

"What do you mean I touched the kerb?"
"That was a grade 1 fault at most, are you blind?!"
"I was not too close to that oncoming car!"
"I did check my blindspot..."
"My mirrorwork was fine..."
"Are you insane? My progression was fine"

I agree with you on the whole, could see many a punch up back at the test centre if the tester had to explain his decisions. However it is frustrating with the lack of visablility at the testers decisions and where they are finding fault with your driving. The feedback you receive is very generic on the paper results afterwards e.g observation/hazards etc, could be more specific. I got mine on my secong go by the way. It is however a hard system to govern and test and it is difficult to find a solution to this issue, I do believe the current system is flawed though.

kaimera

I think it's too lax actually - when I failed, it could have gone either way but couldn't fault the tester for failing me in the end.

still waayy to many piss poor drivers out there even after the test; perhaps those advanced courses should be mandatory!

Wishbone Ash

powerfade wrote: »

I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise

You may have incurred a grade 3 fault very early on the test. If so, the examiner was unlikely to continue marking the sheet as you had already failed.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, that comes up time and time again here!

jollygood wrote: »

I am told in Ireland the testers look down on someone taking their test in an instructors car

The people who told you this are probably the same people who insist that there is a quota, that reversing around a corner is illegal, that you more likely to pass if you do a test on a Friday/wear a work uniform/have a particular make of car/open the door for the tester etc.

All urban myths!

99.9% of those doing tests in trucks and buses do so in instructor's/driving school vehicles. Do you think that the examiners 'look down' on all these people too? And strangely, they have a much higher pass rate than category B tests.

dudara

I don't think that the Irish Driving Test is intrinsically unfair. You may on occasion get a tougher/grumpy tester, but that is personality. The test itself and the marking, is pretty fair.

There are a set number of categories that you will be marked on. There are certain things that you have to do correctly (i.e. hold the steering wheel appropriately). This is common knowledge and if you fail (and whinge) on these items, then you need to call yourself aside.

Lilady

I'm not sure unfair is the word as peoples opinions will always be different.. There is a few things that I might disagree with but that's personal opinion.. Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around.. I would prefer to drive right round or find somewhere say to do a 3 point turn.. Also keeping to the left, yes that's fine on roads where there is a broken white line so overtaking is possible but if it's a straight white line it's illegal to overtake anyway so positioning shouldn't be a problem, unless emergency services try getting through but you pull over for them any way!! well my rant is over.. :P

brian076

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You may have incurred a grade 3 fault very early on the test. If so, the examiner was unlikely to continue marking the sheet as you had already failed.

This shouldn't happen. One of the reasons why the tester continues with the test after an early Grade 3 fault is to give a full assessment to the candidate, so that any other faults can be rectified before the next test.

The only time they'll stop marking is if they feel they're in danger, in which case they'll head back to the test centre.

Lilady wrote: »

Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around

It's not dangerous if you reverse into a side road, once you take proper observation.
There may be occasions when you end up at the end of a cul de sac in a narrow road, and the only way to get back out is to reverse into a limited opening. Reversing around a corner may seem a bit pointless, but it's the most effective way for a tester to assess that you're capable of controlling the car in reverse.

leeroybrown

Lilady wrote: »

Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around..

How is it dangerous? It's just a formalised version of an everyday piece of driving that demonstrates that the learner has sufficient skill. Being able to reverse in a safe controlled fashion while turning is a skill I use every day parking in my driveway. Similarly it's often very important when parking in busy car parks or urban traffic. Quite often in housing estates and on rural roads it's the only reasonable way to turn around.

Wishbone Ash

brian076 wrote: »

This shouldn't happen. One of the reasons why the tester continues with the test after an early Grade 3 fault is to give a full assessment to the candidate, so that any other faults can be rectified before the next test

Point taken. I'd forgotten that the system had changed.

When I did the artic test for the first time back in the 1990s, I didn't react correctly to hazard which could have had severe consequences. The examiner closed his clipboard, threw it on the dash and put his feet up. I knew I had failed (and deserved to) but he still continued with the test without marking anything else and I had to go through the motions. (Passed it 2nd time. )

Wishbone Ash

Lilady wrote: »

Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around

Dangerous - in a car!!

How would you manage reversing a truck with 45ft trailer or a 70ft articulated bus around a corner? Bear in mind that it extremely unlikely that you'd find a road wide enough to do a turnabout.

WexCan

I failed two tests before passing on my third, all in the UK. On each of the two fails, the examiner told me exactly what I had done wrong to merit the serious faults, so I'm not sure why Irish examiners can't do the same.

brian076

WexCan wrote: »

I failed two tests before passing on my third, all in the UK. On each of the two fails, the examiner told me exactly what I had done wrong to merit the serious faults, so I'm not sure why Irish examiners can't do the same.

I really think a happy medium could be found, and it should be possible to de-brief the candidate after the test, whether they pass or fail, without getting into a heated discussion.

Unfortunately most of the current crop of testers are set in their ways, and they are unlikely to change the current set up anytime soon.

DrivingInfo

I came across a problem where testers were explaining faults and they explained them incorrectly or in a way which confused the learner.
Here's one: you were marked for going over speed ramps in 3rd gear!
Well the learner now thinks they should go over every speed ramp in 2nd where really they should slow down to a speed to suit the ramp and then use a gear to suit the speed.

So where does it stop????;)

brian076

DrivingInfo wrote: »

I came across a problem where testers were explaining faults and they explained them incorrectly or in a way which confused the learner.
Here's one: you were marked for going over speed ramps in 3rd gear!
Well the learner now thinks they should go over every speed ramp in 2nd where really they should slow down to a speed to suit the ramp and then use a gear to suit the speed.

So where does it stop????;)

It probably just stops by the tester giving accurate info, and maybe this should be done in the presence of the pupil's instructor, as is the case in the UK.

But i agree, it's very easy for someone to get the wrong end of the stick. Some years ago a pupil got a Grade 3 for not stopping at a stop sign, but after the test she told me that the tester failed her because she stopped at a stop sign.

DrivingInfo

brian076 wrote: »

It probably just stops by the tester giving accurate info, and maybe this should be done in the presence of the pupil's instructor, as is the case in the UK.

But i agree, it's very easy for someone to get the wrong end of the stick. Some years ago a pupil got a Grade 3 for not stopping at a stop sign, but after the test she told me that the tester failed her because she stopped at a stop sign.

Totally agree!
Personally I think testers should only be allowed to give feedback in the presence of the RSA-ADI Instructor. That will make sure they do their job correctly and will protect them if someone gets upset.

shinny

jollygood wrote: »

What I don't get is I am told in Ireland the testers look down on someone taking their test in an instructors car (or at least used to) whereas this is definitely not the case in the UK.

I passed first time, back in 1994, driving in my instructors car. In Wicklow, btw which was notorious at the time for high failure rates.

bad2dabone

i think the test needs a few changes,
my sister took her test in raheny recently I went along with her and waited in the test centre, 19 minutes of actual driving. on a friday afternoon. She passed, but 19 minutes? what kind of an assesment is that?

also no night time driving, no parking into spaces or parallel, no motorway driving etc.

If the test was done in stages, i.e instead of paying 75 quid you pay 150 or 200 and do an hour test in the day and with the same tester you do an hour driving in the dark including a trip to a dual carraigeway where the tester gets an idea of your attitude as well as your skills it would create a better standard of driver.

I think my sister can drive well sometimes, but everytime i'm out with her she does something outrageous behind the wheel.

19 minutes is far too short a time to test someone in my opinion.

Rondolfus

bad2dabone wrote: »

i think the test needs a few changes,
my sister took her test in raheny recently I went along with her and waited in the test centre, 19 minutes of actual driving. on a friday afternoon. She passed, but 19 minutes? what kind of an assesment is that?

also no night time driving, no parking into spaces or parallel, no motorway driving etc.

If the test was done in stages, i.e instead of paying 75 quid you pay 150 or 200 and do an hour test in the day and with the same tester you do an hour driving in the dark including a trip to a dual carraigeway where the tester gets an idea of your attitude as well as your skills it would create a better standard of driver.

I think my sister can drive well sometimes, but everytime i'm out with her she does something outrageous behind the wheel.

19 minutes is far too short a time to test someone in my opinion.

You'd be surprised how much a tester can observe in 19 mins of driving. The test is designed to see a wide range of driving skills in a short amount of time. True some people can take the test, tick all the boxes and when they pass, they drive a bit more on the dangerous side. Thats not the tests fault thats the person. If they can drive safely during a test they can drive safely in normal situations. If I take a French oral test and pass with flying colours, but then decide to neglect my French, become complacent and my standards drop, thats my fault. Thats not a problem with the test. People have to take responsibility for their own failings.

leeroybrown

bad2dabone wrote: »

i think the test needs a few changes,
my sister took her test in raheny recently I went along with her and waited in the test centre, 19 minutes of actual driving. on a friday afternoon. She passed, but 19 minutes? what kind of an assesment is that?

also no night time driving, no parking into spaces or parallel, no motorway driving etc.

The length issue is just a bit of a red herring. I'd suggest that your sister was just lucky with her test time and the traffic levels so she completed the route quickly. It still covers all the technical driving elements that are required to be tested. When I did my test too I also had quite a quick run but it definitely provided a decent test of the skills that were required to pass.

That said, I completely agree that the number of technical elements covered by the test is too small. My massive problem with the Irish driving test is the lack of any emergency stop. Someone can learn to drive and pass their driving test without ever having had to use controlled hard braking. Adding more driving skills to the test would increase it's length and there's definitely an argument to have additional driving conditions examined.

brian076

bad2dabone wrote: »

also no night time driving, no parking into spaces or parallel, no motorway driving etc.

The problem here would be to get uniformity throughout the country. How could someone in West Kerry or Donegal get access to a motorway?
While some test centres are located where parking spaces are available, there are plenty where parking spaces are limited. Naas for instance has no suitable parking, and there are few if any car parks in the vicinity which could be used.

While being tested at night is also a good idea, what would happen if your test was in June. You'd have to do it at 11pm.

bad2dabone

yep makes sense there Brian.

samsamson

I was convinced I hadn't passed my test, and walking back into the centre my head was full of "That was so unfair, he wasn't even watching me half the time" etc.

That voice in my head shut up once he slid the certificate of competency across the table though.

I think it's hard not to try and blame others when we make mistakes.

Wishbone Ash

bad2dabone wrote: »

including a trip to a dual carraigeway where the tester gets an idea of your attitude as well as your skills

Some of the test routes in Finglas (Dublin) incorporate driving on a dual carriageway.

brian076

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Some of the test routes in Finglas (Dublin) incorporate driving on a dual carriageway.

Tallaght is the same, you could be on an 80 stretch on the bypass, but it's really the luck of the draw.

While every effort is made to keep the test as standard as possible throughout the country, there are always going to be differences from centre to centre. Even within the same centre there can be differences from route to route, and Tallaght is a good example.

One of the routes is very straight forward where you only encounter 1 roundabout and you're mainly in housing estates, whereas another route involves 5 roundabouts and 2 crossings of the Luas line.

not14talk

brian076 wrote: »

The problem here would be to get uniformity throughout the country. How could someone in West Kerry or Donegal get access to a motorway?
While some test centres are located where parking spaces are available, there are plenty where parking spaces are limited. Naas for instance has no suitable parking, and there are few if any car parks in the vicinity which could be used.
.

I see what you are saying but I really think we should follow the UK test with regard to they way they are tested. In their test they can either get parallel park, turn about, emergency stop or reverse around the corner and they have to do two out of the four so in theory a successful candidate will have have all of them mastered before sitting the test. So if they cant find a place to parallel they can do another one of the four but because its part of the test they will have learned how to do it. Seriously Irish people cant parallel park like they will rather pull straight into the spot and try and fix from there.

I also think there should be too add ons to the test like once we have completed the normal test we get a intermediate or restricted licence (and have R plates on the car) and we have to do two other tests to get our full licence with one test being driving at night and another driving on the motorway.

The Big Red Button

Lilady wrote: »

There is a few things that I might disagree with but that's personal opinion.. Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around

When reversing around a corner, you should be completely aware of every vehicle, object, person etc in the vicinity of your car. If you don't feel you are aware of what's happening around you when you're reversing, you're probably not using your mirrors correctly. It's a perfectly safe maneuver if done correctly.

Have you passed your test, as a matter of interest?

brian076

not14talk wrote: »

I see what you are saying but I really think we should follow the UK test with regard to they way they are tested. In their test they can either get parallel park, turn about, emergency stop or reverse around the corner and they have to do two out of the four so in theory a successful candidate will have have all of them mastered before sitting the test. So if they cant find a place to parallel they can do another one of the four but because its part of the test they will have learned how to do it. Seriously Irish people cant parallel park like they will rather pull straight into the spot and try and fix from there.

I also think there should be too add ons to the test like once we have completed the normal test we get a intermediate or restricted licence (and have R plates on the car) and we have to do two other tests to get our full licence with one test being driving at night and another driving on the motorway.

I agree with you, I think the UK system makes more sense, and there is a possibility that a graduated licence will be introduced here, the RSA are looking at it at the moment, but I don't think motorway or night time driving is being considered.

Ideally everybody should be re-tested every 10 years, a 30 minute test should not entitle you to a licence for life. This will never happen with the current testers, as they can't manage to keep a reasonable backlog with just learners, but it's something that may be considered in the future.

I wonder if you took a random sample of 100 full licence holders who've held a licence for 5 years or more, how many would pass a driving test, without taking any lessons. I'd be surprised if it was anymore than 10%.

Wishbone Ash

brian076 wrote: »

IIdeally everybody should be re-tested every 10 years

It would be a bit timeconsuming for those of us who hold multiple catgeories especially if it involved theory test and practical test.

brian076 wrote:

I wonder if you took a random sample of 100 full licence holders who've held a licence for 5 years or more, how many would pass a driving test, without taking any lessons. I'd be surprised if it was anymore than 10%.

I'd agree but ironically those people have much cheaper insurance as they are much less likely to be involved in an accident.

Young men statistically have a greater chance of passing a driving test than any other category but are also stastistically more likely to die in a traffic accident.

WexCan

For the UK test, the emergency stop is done on one out of three tests. The four manoeuvres are the left reverse (around a corner), turn in the road, reverse park (bay) and reverse park (road/parallel) of which any two will be done on test, though only one of the parking manoeuvres. If the test centre has bays, you'll usually get the bay park at the start of the test then either turn in road or left reverse. I'm surprised parking isn't covered in the Irish test.

In the "mainland" UK we don't have R plates like certain places, notably Northern Ireland, though there is the option for newly qualified drivers to use P plates to show that they are inexperienced. The R system in Northern Ireland is controversial as it limits new drivers to something like 45mph on all roads, including motorways.

Most people here use their ADIs car for their test, waiting times are generally no more than two-three weeks, though cancellations can bring that forward quite a bit. I had a month between each of my tests, though I could have taken them a week apart.

After the test there's the option of taking Pass Plus, which covers night driving, bad weather, town driving, motorways, dual carriageways and rural roads. It's similar to the likes of the Hibernian course but it's recognised by many insurers - I recouped my fee in the insurance discount. It's not a test, simply a "tick the boxes" with your instructor but it was useful for me.

littlepink

jordainius wrote: »

I know that some people need to vent from time to time, but some people need to realise that the reason "Person X" failed the test is because "Person X" was not good enough to pass the test.quote]

I think if you read through some of the posts on the 'successful' thread you will see that some people are passed with faults that others are failed for. The driving test and it's testers has to be like everything else- imperfect. Why do some think that driving testers are these super human individuals who never make mistakes? Of course there are some people who have been failed but shouldn't have and some who have passed that shouldn't. There are some testers who have a stricter/more lenient interpretation of the 'rules' than others and there are some testers who will subconsciously look favourably/unfavourably at some candidates and be kinder/harsher in their judgement of them.

gooch2k9

In letterkenny, i feel that girls are given a far easier time. My two cousins tested: no more than 30mins for the tests combined. A friend 10mins and back to the center. Myself, a 18yo male, 3 tests none below 40mins. How is that fair...good luck to anyone not going to make more than 8 mistakes in that period. You'd be lucky to make four in the shorter periods as your concentration lapses over time.

robbie_998

its fair enough... i dont think its fair that in the UK they do a Emergency stop and here in the Rep they dont.

I also think that some sort of driving on a dual carriage way or motor way would also make the test more fair here as it seems that people do need it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

robbie_998

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

true which is why i also mentioned Dual Carriage ways too, they can be basically the same at times with a few small differences like speed etc.

and with the thread we had before a lot of people could do with it.

but as for the OP here... at the moment i think it is fair enough as it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

GreeBo

gooch2k9 wrote: »

good luck to anyone not going to make more than 8 mistakes in that period. You'd be lucky to make four in the shorter periods as your concentration lapses over time.

:eek:
So you think the test should be shorter as the longer it is the more chance you have of making a mistake?