Irish driving test unfair?

sashafierce · 22-10-2009 10:07PM #1

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rcdk1 · 22-10-2009 10:18PM

No offence but you failed your test on your bad habits. What other people have or haven't done is irrelevant.

As to whether these are or are not bad habits, that's for the instructor/tester to decide. It is after all his job to evaluate your driving.

LimeFruitGum · 22-10-2009 10:21PM

Well, I do sometimes do the same thing, but the inspector wants to see your hands in the usual 10-to-2 position.

Permabear · 22-10-2009 11:04PM

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Wishbone Ash · 23-10-2009 01:09AM

sashafierce wrote: »

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Your personal opinion is totally irrelevant. What society would conduct any type of tests based on personal opinions?

sashafierce wrote:

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Another personal opinion!

sashafierce wrote:

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I don't see the relevance of this statement. Your driving test is based on an assessment of your skills as presented during your driving test. What happens before or after the test has absolutely no relevance to the actual driving test.

HydeRoad · 23-10-2009 09:57AM

Besides which, you are trained by your instructor how to hold the steering wheel. If you do not demonstrate to the examiner that you trained well with simple habits like these, then it calls into question how well you took on board all the rest of your training.

Personally, I think the test is not quite strict enough. But to enable people to be trained to a higher standard, there would really need to be two tests, a 'half way' test, with restrictions on successful applicants, followed some appropriate time later by a much harder test.

There are far too many people driving round in a daydream, who seem to think that standards of any kind are a total irrelevance, and they cause untold congestion, delay and danger to other road users.

powerfade · 23-10-2009 10:02AM

My only problem with the Irish driving test s the lack of accountability. I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise, when I asked the tester what this was for he stated that he was not at liberty to tell me. So I obviously made a big mistake, didn't know what it was myself, but the tester would not tell me so I could not go and improve on this section of my driving for whatever caused me to fail. Surely this system is wrong, you have to be told what you did wrong in order to improve??? To the floor, please feel free to point out the flaws in my argument!!:D

rainbowtrout · 23-10-2009 10:11AM

powerfade wrote: »

My only problem with the Irish driving test s the lack of accountability. I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise, when I asked the tester what this was for he stated that he was not at liberty to tell me. So I obviously made a big mistake, didn't know what it was myself, but the tester would not tell me so I could not go and improve on this section of my driving for whatever caused me to fail. Surely this system is wrong, you have to be told what you did wrong in order to improve??? To the floor, please feel free to point out the flaws in my argument!!:D

but don't they give you a sheet with your fails marked in it and it shows which items you failed on, and in the list of items they underline what you did wrong. That's what I got when I failed mine.

I will agree on the accountability, you have no come back, it's your word against theirs and the best you can get is a resit. One of my tests was abandoned because one of the front indicator lights blew just before or during the test. The examiner got out to check and said it wasn't working so my test would be abandoned and I would get a re-sit for free, which is as good as a fail because I still didn't get a pass. I asked if I could do hand signals and was told no. I thought it woudl be the perfect opportunity to use them, otherwise what is the point in having them?

ztoical · 23-10-2009 10:22AM

powerfade wrote: »

My only problem with the Irish driving test s the lack of accountability. I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise, when I asked the tester what this was for he stated that he was not at liberty to tell me. So I obviously made a big mistake, didn't know what it was myself, but the tester would not tell me so I could not go and improve on this section of my driving for whatever caused me to fail. Surely this system is wrong, you have to be told what you did wrong in order to improve??? To the floor, please feel free to point out the flaws in my argument!!:D

You do get a sheet indicating in what areas you failed the test. Having the tester go through the test with you opens up a big can of worms in which people could get into arguments with the tester over certain marks and you'd be there all day or worse case someone becomes violent with the tester. The issue with making it easier to appeal is that more and more people would do it thus clogging the system, frankly everyone I know has come out of a failed test and stated it was all the testers fault and they would appeal but after a good nights sleep and some reflection come to their senses.

Failing on a grade three means a serious error, like running a red light or stop sign, that frankly you would hope people would be aware they'd done. Half the issue with the test is people just not being aware when they are making mistakes and the test sheet at least tells you what areas you need work on [gears, roundabouts etc] and people should go away and work improving their driving in those areas rather then being told O you messed up at this point on the test cus in that case they will only focus on that area of the test and not on their overall driving skills.

Permabear · 23-10-2009 11:48AM

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leeroybrown · 23-10-2009 11:56AM

The tester spends about 40 minutes in a car with the learner driver. The only way they can in adequately test their competence is to make them do a broad range of manoeuvring and watch for every little problem. Exhibiting small problems in one specific area or across multiple areas is a perfectly good reason to fail someone. Driving instructors know *exactly* what level of technique is expected and *exactly* what flaws will be penalised. There is no excuse for not putting them right.

Also, I'd consider someone holding their steering wheel at the bottom to be a pretty major flaw in technique.

jollygood · 23-10-2009 12:10PM

I took the test twice in Ireland and found both times were completely unfair and necessarily strict - in comparison with the english system.

Here I got so many ticks in comparison to the tests I took in England (2). I couldn't resolve the two wildly differing standards. On my last test in Dublin, I honestly drove so much better than the drive I took in England when I passed my test.

What I don't get is I am told in Ireland the testers look down on someone taking their test in an instructors car (or at least used to) whereas this is definitely not the case in the UK. Over there, you are not and never were allowed to drive on your own whilst on a provisional so the majority of people taking their tests would be in an instructors car.

I was in an instructors car both tests in Ireland and tend to blame this fact on why I failed over here.

In any case, I really did find the Irish test to be really really strict to the point of ridiculousness.

Permabear · 23-10-2009 12:24PM

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jordainius · 23-10-2009 01:39PM

I know that some people need to vent from time to time, but some people need to realise that the reason "Person X" failed the test is because "Person X" was not good enough to pass the test.

Looking to blame the system or the tester will not help "Person X". "Person X" needs to use the test sheet indicating where they failed and to work on those areas.

The test offers good feedback. For instance, I passed first time, but I was lucky because I had 8 grade 2's. And a similar amount of Grade 1's. I spent the next two weeks practicing on the area's I got the faults on.

OP, bad habits count against good driving. A good driver doesn't have bad habits.

jhegarty · 23-10-2009 01:45PM

So only fair test I took was the one I passed

jordainius · 23-10-2009 01:53PM

powerfade wrote: »

My only problem with the Irish driving test s the lack of accountability. I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise, when I asked the tester what this was for he stated that he was not at liberty to tell me. So I obviously made a big mistake, didn't know what it was myself, but the tester would not tell me so I could not go and improve on this section of my driving for whatever caused me to fail. Surely this system is wrong, you have to be told what you did wrong in order to improve??? To the floor, please feel free to point out the flaws in my argument!!:D

If the testers disclosed where the faults occured I guarantee you that 90% of their decisions would be challenged! It would become a case of "my word against the testers" and all kinds of appeals would be lodged, possibly even legal challenges.

In saying that, I am not saying that 90% of testers decisions are challengable. But people who sit driving tests tend to be biased, whereas testers aren't!

Just think of the countless arguments

"What do you mean I touched the kerb?"
"That was a grade 1 fault at most, are you blind?!"
"I was not too close to that oncoming car!"
"I did check my blindspot..."
"My mirrorwork was fine..."
"Are you insane? My progression was fine"

powerfade · 23-10-2009 02:21PM

jordainius wrote: »

If the testers disclosed where the faults occured I guarantee you that 90% of their decisions would be challenged! It would become a case of "my word against the testers" and all kinds of appeals would be lodged, possibly even legal challenges.

In saying that, I am not saying that 90% of testers decisions are challengable. But people who sit driving tests tend to be biased, whereas testers aren't!

Just think of the countless arguments

"What do you mean I touched the kerb?"
"That was a grade 1 fault at most, are you blind?!"
"I was not too close to that oncoming car!"
"I did check my blindspot..."
"My mirrorwork was fine..."
"Are you insane? My progression was fine"

I agree with you on the whole, could see many a punch up back at the test centre if the tester had to explain his decisions. However it is frustrating with the lack of visablility at the testers decisions and where they are finding fault with your driving. The feedback you receive is very generic on the paper results afterwards e.g observation/hazards etc, could be more specific. I got mine on my secong go by the way. It is however a hard system to govern and test and it is difficult to find a solution to this issue, I do believe the current system is flawed though.

kaimera · 23-10-2009 02:28PM

I think it's too lax actually - when I failed, it could have gone either way but couldn't fault the tester for failing me in the end.

still waayy to many piss poor drivers out there even after the test; perhaps those advanced courses should be mandatory!

Wishbone Ash · 23-10-2009 03:21PM

powerfade wrote: »

I rememeber when I failed mine I had one pink tick(automatical fail), I would have passed otherwise

You may have incurred a grade 3 fault very early on the test. If so, the examiner was unlikely to continue marking the sheet as you had already failed.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes, that comes up time and time again here!

jollygood wrote: »

I am told in Ireland the testers look down on someone taking their test in an instructors car

The people who told you this are probably the same people who insist that there is a quota, that reversing around a corner is illegal, that you more likely to pass if you do a test on a Friday/wear a work uniform/have a particular make of car/open the door for the tester etc.

All urban myths!

99.9% of those doing tests in trucks and buses do so in instructor's/driving school vehicles. Do you think that the examiners 'look down' on all these people too? And strangely, they have a much higher pass rate than category B tests.

dudara · 23-10-2009 03:42PM

I don't think that the Irish Driving Test is intrinsically unfair. You may on occasion get a tougher/grumpy tester, but that is personality. The test itself and the marking, is pretty fair.

There are a set number of categories that you will be marked on. There are certain things that you have to do correctly (i.e. hold the steering wheel appropriately). This is common knowledge and if you fail (and whinge) on these items, then you need to call yourself aside.

Lilady · 23-10-2009 05:04PM

I'm not sure unfair is the word as peoples opinions will always be different.. There is a few things that I might disagree with but that's personal opinion.. Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around.. I would prefer to drive right round or find somewhere say to do a 3 point turn.. Also keeping to the left, yes that's fine on roads where there is a broken white line so overtaking is possible but if it's a straight white line it's illegal to overtake anyway so positioning shouldn't be a problem, unless emergency services try getting through but you pull over for them any way!! well my rant is over.. :P

brian076 · 23-10-2009 05:25PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You may have incurred a grade 3 fault very early on the test. If so, the examiner was unlikely to continue marking the sheet as you had already failed.

This shouldn't happen. One of the reasons why the tester continues with the test after an early Grade 3 fault is to give a full assessment to the candidate, so that any other faults can be rectified before the next test.

The only time they'll stop marking is if they feel they're in danger, in which case they'll head back to the test centre.

Lilady wrote: »

Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around

It's not dangerous if you reverse into a side road, once you take proper observation.
There may be occasions when you end up at the end of a cul de sac in a narrow road, and the only way to get back out is to reverse into a limited opening. Reversing around a corner may seem a bit pointless, but it's the most effective way for a tester to assess that you're capable of controlling the car in reverse.

leeroybrown · 23-10-2009 05:48PM

Lilady wrote: »

Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around..

How is it dangerous? It's just a formalised version of an everyday piece of driving that demonstrates that the learner has sufficient skill. Being able to reverse in a safe controlled fashion while turning is a skill I use every day parking in my driveway. Similarly it's often very important when parking in busy car parks or urban traffic. Quite often in housing estates and on rural roads it's the only reasonable way to turn around.

Wishbone Ash · 23-10-2009 06:56PM

brian076 wrote: »

This shouldn't happen. One of the reasons why the tester continues with the test after an early Grade 3 fault is to give a full assessment to the candidate, so that any other faults can be rectified before the next test

Point taken. I'd forgotten that the system had changed.

When I did the artic test for the first time back in the 1990s, I didn't react correctly to hazard which could have had severe consequences. The examiner closed his clipboard, threw it on the dash and put his feet up. I knew I had failed (and deserved to) but he still continued with the test without marking anything else and I had to go through the motions. (Passed it 2nd time.

)

Wishbone Ash · 23-10-2009 07:00PM

Lilady wrote: »

Like reversing around a corner.. I would have thought that would be a very dangerous thing to do no matter how much you look around

Dangerous - in a car!!

How would you manage reversing a truck with 45ft trailer or a 70ft articulated bus around a corner? Bear in mind that it extremely unlikely that you'd find a road wide enough to do a turnabout.

WexCan · 23-10-2009 07:31PM

I failed two tests before passing on my third, all in the UK. On each of the two fails, the examiner told me exactly what I had done wrong to merit the serious faults, so I'm not sure why Irish examiners can't do the same.

brian076 · 23-10-2009 07:50PM

WexCan wrote: »

I failed two tests before passing on my third, all in the UK. On each of the two fails, the examiner told me exactly what I had done wrong to merit the serious faults, so I'm not sure why Irish examiners can't do the same.

I really think a happy medium could be found, and it should be possible to de-brief the candidate after the test, whether they pass or fail, without getting into a heated discussion.

Unfortunately most of the current crop of testers are set in their ways, and they are unlikely to change the current set up anytime soon.

DrivingInfo · 23-10-2009 08:55PM

I came across a problem where testers were explaining faults and they explained them incorrectly or in a way which confused the learner.
Here's one: you were marked for going over speed ramps in 3rd gear!
Well the learner now thinks they should go over every speed ramp in 2nd where really they should slow down to a speed to suit the ramp and then use a gear to suit the speed.

So where does it stop????;)

brian076 · 23-10-2009 09:37PM

DrivingInfo wrote: »

I came across a problem where testers were explaining faults and they explained them incorrectly or in a way which confused the learner.
Here's one: you were marked for going over speed ramps in 3rd gear!
Well the learner now thinks they should go over every speed ramp in 2nd where really they should slow down to a speed to suit the ramp and then use a gear to suit the speed.

So where does it stop????;)

It probably just stops by the tester giving accurate info, and maybe this should be done in the presence of the pupil's instructor, as is the case in the UK.

But i agree, it's very easy for someone to get the wrong end of the stick. Some years ago a pupil got a Grade 3 for not stopping at a stop sign, but after the test she told me that the tester failed her because she stopped at a stop sign.

DrivingInfo · 24-10-2009 09:58AM

brian076 wrote: »

It probably just stops by the tester giving accurate info, and maybe this should be done in the presence of the pupil's instructor, as is the case in the UK.

But i agree, it's very easy for someone to get the wrong end of the stick. Some years ago a pupil got a Grade 3 for not stopping at a stop sign, but after the test she told me that the tester failed her because she stopped at a stop sign.

Totally agree!
Personally I think testers should only be allowed to give feedback in the presence of the RSA-ADI Instructor. That will make sure they do their job correctly and will protect them if someone gets upset.

shinny · 24-10-2009 10:12AM

jollygood wrote: »

What I don't get is I am told in Ireland the testers look down on someone taking their test in an instructors car (or at least used to) whereas this is definitely not the case in the UK.

I passed first time, back in 1994, driving in my instructors car. In Wicklow, btw which was notorious at the time for high failure rates.

Irish driving test unfair?

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