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Infrastructure in the new Programme for Government

  • 10-10-2009 2:26pm
    #1
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭


    The policy can be read here from page 26.

    Some excerpts:
    The Government will prioritise capital spending in those areas which contribute to our
    sustainable development. The provision of public transport will prepare us for a postworld
    where oil supplies are contracting. We will build flagship modern transport
    connections linking people to their places of work. Properly planned public transport
    gives back to commuters that most valuable of commodities - time. We want to
    reduce journey times and congestion, which bring economic and social costs. We will
    develop a first-class infrastructure for the modern age.
    * We will complete the Major Urban Routes (MIU) in 2010.
    * We will review the completion dates and appropriate road standard of the
    remaining 94 road projects at the design stage or earlier stage of development in light of the economic circumstances, falling road usage and our climate change objectives. We will ensure new design standards for national secondary routes to take account of current economic and environmental circumstances.
    * This Government will not advance the Eastern Bypass
    * We will continue to invest in enhancement and maintenance of the regional and local road network to protect the existing investment and service new housing, industrial and commercial development and to open up areas for tourism development by improving road access.
    * We will introduce preferential parking/charging spaces for electric cars.
    * We will investigate the potential for the introduction of a viable road pricing strategy, including overcoming technical and timing difficulties. Revenues should be ring-fenced for the provision of public transport and sustainable transport modes.
    * We will complete our investment programme to ensure that non-national roads are properly signposted.
    * We will allocate a significant portion of the budget on road improvement projects to the provision of new footpaths to allow pedestrians to walk in greater safety and comfort.

    There's much more in there.
    Tagged:


«13

Comments

  • #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There is lots in there but it sounds aspirational.
    We will amend the Data Protection Act to allow the publication of the sale price
    of property and create and maintain a House Price Database in the Department of
    the Environment where details of residential and commercial property sales will
    be maintained for statistical purposes.


  • #3
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    They havent got the money to do even half of this crap.


  • #4
    triple-M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,171 ✭✭✭triple-M


    :mad:so no eastern bypass then?


  • #5
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    triple-M wrote: »
    :mad:so no eastern bypass then?

    Thank goodness for that. The orbital route should be canned as well for now.


  • #6
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    This is the one I like:
    Cycling
    · We will reverse the CIE policy of excluding and limiting bicycle carrying capacity on interurban trains and buses and ensure all new train units have a more extensive bicycle carrying capacity.

    Glad to see they're concentrating on the really important stuff :rolleyes:.

    OK, it's not the only thing in there, but what percentage of the population does this really affect? I'd love to see a value for money study done on this one.


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  • #7
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Note this bit
    Having successfully focused on the delivery of major roads infrastructure in Transport 21 over the past five years, the emphasis in new projects will shift significantly to public transport.

    Following the completion of payments for the major motorways
    programme in 2011, the ratio of expenditure on new Transport 21 projects between public transport and the national roads programme will be 2:1 in favour of public transport.

    No Metro North till 2012 ?


  • #8
    Enbee
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Enbee


    No Metro North until 2016 by the looks of things. Same for the Interconnector. Still, they do say they want them completed by 2016 so they could just be hedging their bets in case more delays prevent them from being completed earlier than that.

    These projects seem like they've been taking forever.


  • #9
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Funny enough that 2:1 ratio could mathematically be €6bn for MN and IC, and €3bn for roads :D

    Not that theres €6 for MN and IC, let alone €6bn.


  • #10
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    wrote:
    Fianna Fáil and the Green Party have worked well together over the past two years providing good government for country during a period of unprecedented global economic turmoil.

    The document quickly goes downhill from there...
    Some more gems...
    As promised in our “Smarter Travel” policy, following the completion of the rapid transport studies in Cork, Galway, Waterford & Limerick cities, we will, starting in 2010 provide a high quality integrated, accessible public transport service to within 800 metres of every home.

    Work will continue on the subsequent phases of the Western Rail Corridor and Navan projects for earliest possible delivery.
    :(
    Planning and design will continue on Metro West and the Bray, Lucan and Cross-city LUAS lines with a view to earliest possible delivery.
    :(:(
    Where is Interconnector (or even Metro North)?
    Where is the Atlantic Corridor?
    Why is there absolutely nothing about the reforms in aviation that we need?
    Why are the greens even there?
    This was their opportunity to show some vision. Instead they've just produced a jumbled mess full of empty rhetoric and meaningless sentiment. In that regard, they're exactly like FF now.


  • #11
    nordisk celt83
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭nordisk celt83


    No Eastern Byass.:( Now I have reasons not to vote for the Greens and Fianna Fail next time round. Although, I hope they really do push them on the public transport front.


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  • #12
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    We will review the completion dates and appropriate road standard of the remaining 94 road projects at the design stage or earlier stage of development in light of the economic circumstances, falling road usage and our climate change objectives. We will ensure new design standards for national secondary routes to take account of current economic and environmental circumstances.

    'falling road usage'!

    In other words, all these projects will be built as lower-capacity roads than currently planned.

    A road planned as a dual-carriageway will be built as a 2+2, a road planned as a 2+2 will be built as WS2.

    Once existing projects are completed, don't expect any more motorways to be built during the lifetime of this government.


  • #13
    richardjjd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭richardjjd


    "... Planning and design will continue on Metro West and the Bray, Lucan and Cross-city LUAS lines with a view to earliest possible"

    Happy, but surprised to see that Metro West is still being discussed - it seemed to have fallen off the radar for a long while.


  • #14
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    This Government will implement an Integrated Ticketing System to cover all modes of transport. We will develop proposals for a zonal fares structure. A single Smart Card will be rolled out for testing early in 2010. By the end of 2010 an electronic purse “Pay-As-You-Go” will be available to all Dublin Bus and LUAS passengers in the Greater Dublin Area and the Smart Card will extend to all ticketing products by 2011. Iarnród Éireann will join the Dublin Bus-LUAS system by 2011. By the end of 2011 Bus Éireann, LUAS, Bus Átha Cliath, Iarnród Éireann and some private bus operators will be in the system.

    Hopefully this actually happens. Let's wait and see.
    By end 2010 we will have Real Time Passenger Information (RTPI) at over 500 bus stops in Dublin and Cork in addition to having such information available on SMS and the Internet throughout the country. We will extend this RTPI to bus stops in Limerick, Galway and Waterford in 2011.

    Sounds okay. How about a website like this where you can get real-time and advance timetable information for all forms of public transport?


  • #15
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Other transport 'initiatives' in the revised Programme for Government (p.40 of pdf):
    Conduct a feasibility study on how a future high-speed rail system could link Dublin and Belfast to the emerging UK and European high speed rail network.

    A feasibility study. :rolleyes:
    Complete the new inter-urban route between Dublin and Belfast and commence construction on the new inter-urban route between Dublin and Derry/Donegal.

    Surely the 'new' inter-urban route between Dublin and Belfast is complete, at least as far as the Dublin government is concerned?

    And how exactly is the Irish government going to 'commence construction' on the A5 in Northern Ireland which forms the bulk of the 'new inter-urban route between Dublin and Derry/Donegal'?
    All of these initiatives will be progressed by agreement with the British Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and other administrations as appropriate.

    In other words, it's not up to the Irish government...


  • #16
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Surely the 'new' inter-urban route between Dublin and Belfast is complete, at least as far as the Dublin government is concerned?

    Unless they're proposing that we pay for the A1-M1 Link and the Hillsborough GSJ - neither of which we should even be considering.


  • #17
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    MYOB wrote: »
    Unless they're proposing that we pay for the A1-M1 Link and the Hillsborough GSJ - neither of which we should even be considering.

    We have committed min. €400m in cash for Derry - Omagh - Monaghan Border and also for Belfast - Larne .


  • #18
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Stupid green ***** put Metro North and Interconnector under Buses as they frantically copied and pasted late into the night :(

    Monument found them , thx monument. We cannot guesstimate putative roads spends without knowing what these two will draw.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62489843&postcount=10
    We will fast track and prioritise the Dart interconnector (and its associated electrification and rolling stock projects) and Metro North so that they are completed by 2016.

    Lets say that is a spend of €5bn between 2012 and 2016 at its most optimistic. €1bn a year. That leaves €500m a year for roads in that timescale .

    Projects now under construction will account for all the road budget in 2010 and 2011 .


  • #19
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    IF the PPPs go ahead (a big IF), then the first few (M17/18, Newlands/M11) will be ok as they are CPOed and the government dont have to pay it all back at one. (Availability based payment scheme). So they wont cost much over the next few years if they start.

    Enniscorthy/NewRoss and the Galway Bypass are a different kettle of fish. The former - I dont know how much is CPOed. Galway will be several years off anyway as they need to Route Select, EIS and Argue about whatever new Western section that they decide.


  • #20
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    'falling road usage'!

    In other words, all these projects will be built as lower-capacity roads than currently planned.

    A road planned as a dual-carriageway will be built as a 2+2, a road planned as a 2+2 will be built as WS2.

    Once existing projects are completed, don't expect any more motorways to be built during the lifetime of this government.

    WS2 is no longer a standard - both the WS2 and 2+1 standards were replaced with the 2+2 spec. 2+1 is only to be used for retrofit purposes according to the current NRA DMRB document.

    Regards!


  • #21
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    We have committed min. €400m in cash for Derry - Omagh - Monaghan Border and also for Belfast - Larne .

    Both of these wouldn't happen if the NIRS was doing them without external funding, the two I mentioned - which are the only major things left to do for there to be a 2 lane freeflow DC between Belfast and Dublin - are on the NIRS plans already (as one scheme which is in their "forward planning schedule"). There are also further safety and median-sealing works planned for the existing A1 DC to bring it to "expressway" standard, meaning it should be 120km/h or 70mph from the (Belfast) Westlink to the Airport Roundabout hopefully.

    Anyway, whatever about the Larne DC (the argument being that it helps trade down here not helped by us having our own, motorway connected port already), the Derry->Border DC is essential to properly serve West Donegal and wasn't going to get built without it.


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  • #22
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    That leaves €500m a year for roads in that timescale .

    Projects now under construction will account for all the road budget in 2010 and 2011 .

    I can't realistically see there being 500M for road construction in 2011 - but even if there was, what under construction projects are there expected to fall in to 2011? Castleisland is scheduled to (and is its BAM, I expect it not to be early), Gort-Crusheen may or may not.

    Anything else? There isn't 500M of roads there under any circumstances.


  • #23
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    So can anyone summarise, briefly, what exactly the Greens have achieved in government in terms of changes to planning laws and regulations, energy independence, and transport?


  • #24
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    .

    But look on the bright side. Fibre to the Fishes is Rolling out in 2010 or 2011


  • #25
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Furet wrote: »
    So can anyone summarise, briefly, what exactly the Greens have achieved in government in terms of changes to planning laws and regulations, energy independence, and transport?

    Sorry, I'm going to be very lazy but:

    28 Sep 09: €500million investment in Irish electricity sector: European Investment Bank helps secure Ireland’s green electricity supplies

    11 Sep 09: Guidelines announced to prevent the over-zoning of land: New procedures in the Planning and Development Bill will result in improved city and county development plans

    9 Sep 09: Fixed support prices introduced for new categories of renewable energy: Govt will pay fixed tariffs for CHP, biomass, wind energy and wave and tidal energy for 15 years

    17 July 09: Landscape conservation area announced for Tara-Skryne valley: National Monuments Bill 2009 sets out to protect archaeological monuments and sites of importance

    8 July 09: Most car dependent town in Ireland receives cycling funding: €1.2million made available to Carrigaline in Cork for a new cycling and walking network

    1 July 09: New electronic planning system will improve the efficiency of applications for both individuals and local authorities

    22 June 09: Next Generation Broadband Strategy published: Document forms part of a wider strategy to develop Ireland as a smart economy

    17 June 09: 1.3 million subscribers to broadband in Ireland: Report shows numbers up by 28% since 2008

    14 June 09: €16 million in insulation grants for 12,000 homes: Home energy scheme huge success as 2,000 tradespeople register to carry out home improvement works

    4 June 09: €5million announced for cycling infrastructure: including city centre section of the Sutton to Sandycove cycleway in Dublin

    28 May 09: Planning Bill published: New bill will ensure transparency, openness and democratic involvement in planning process to avoid rezoning disasters of the past

    12 May 09: Directly elected Mayor for Dublin: Mayor will be charged with delivering reliable, integrated and cost effective transport for Dublin; new role will transform public’s connection with local government

    3 April 09: New electric vehicle agreement signed: Eamon Ryan and the ESB sign Memoranda of understanding with Renault-Nissan to ensure the delivery of electric vehicles to the Irish market

    8 Feb 09: €100m national insulation scheme announced. Scheme which will create 4,000 jobs, upgrade 50,000 homes and save householders €700 per year on heating bills

    5 Feb 09: Government launches ‘Smarter Travel - A Sustainable Transport Future’ which commits to getting 500,000 commuters out of their cars and 150,000 extra workers cycling every day. The plan will slash CO2 emissions by 4 million tones.

    4 Feb 09: Double digit decrease in energy prices will be introduced this year, as Eamon Ryan announces Commission for Energy Regulation Review

    30 Jan 09: Additional €4 million announced to fund Galway water infrastructure

    28 Jan 09: European Commission awards €100m to fund an electricity interconnector between Ireland and the UK to secure energy supply

    1 Jan 09: New energy rating system introduced for all homes for sale or rent. The BER system will rate each home on its energy efficiency, with A being the highest and G the lowest.

    1 Jan 09:Green Party launches campaign to promote the Cycle to Work scheme introduced in Budget 2009. Workers will receive up to €1,000 tax break to buy a bicycle and accessories

    That's just in 2009.

    http://www.greenparty.ie/government/achievements_in_government/rolling_list_of_achievements

    Developments in the near future include the East-West connector with Wales. Swedish firm ABB just won the contract and work should be starting very soon.


  • #26
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Thanks Taconnol. I asked the above poster to drop in so keep all comments on his post polite and courteous please!


  • #27
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Furet wrote: »
    Thanks Taconnol. I asked the above poster to drop in so keep all comments on his post polite and courteous please!
    But of course! I'm a Green - I wouldn't hurt a fly ;)


  • #28
    KevR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    As promised in our “Smarter Travel” policy, following the completion of the rapid transport studies in Cork, Galway, Waterford & Limerick cities, we will, starting in 2010 provide a high quality integrated, accessible public transport service to within 800 metres of every home.

    Yikes! This really annoys me. We seem more concerned with dropping and collecting people from their effing doorstep than providing a fast and frequent service.

    Was on a bus going through Doughiska in Galway recently and the bus stops were far too close together; they were only short walking distance apart. The bus was stopping every few seconds (not sure how many exactly), it was ridiculous. Get rid of some of these unecessary stops, bus journeys will become faster and more frequent.

    I personally would not mind walking a bit further to a bus stop if it meant I wouldn't be waiting as long for the bus to arrive and the journey itself would be quicker.


  • #29
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    KevR wrote: »
    I personally would not mind walking a bit further to a bus stop if it meant I wouldn't be waiting as long for the bus to arrive and the journey itself would be quicker.
    I would think the same way, KevR and in most urban planning studies, the limit of 15 minutes walk is the longest time anyone is expected to walk from their front door to a bus/train station. Any longer and people tend to just get in their car.

    But I (and I'm guessing you) am an able-bodied person. Public transportation is vital for those who cannot use cars, either because they can't afford them or because they are unable to through age or injury.

    I'm not saying I agree with a stop every 800m - there's definitely a distance between how far you can walk in 15mins and 800m. I'm just saying it is a concern that has to be factored in.


  • #30
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Why did you paste in a list of inane green party press releases ???

    eg taconnol green party drivel above .
    Jan 09: New energy rating system introduced for all homes for sale or rent. The BER system will rate each home on its energy efficiency, with A being the highest and G the lowest.

    BUT
    The BER Scheme was established under the European Communities (Energy Performance of Buildings) Regulations 2006 (S.I.No. 666 of 2006).

    so what were ye to do , abolish europe or something ???

    nearly all the rest of that is press releases like that Fibre to the Fish drivel Ryan keeps announcing every few months .

    It is all meaningless and dishonest PR gudd ...and that is me being kind !


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  • #31
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    <snip>

    Um..the piece of legislation you quote there is Irish legislation. It is the implementation of the European Energy Performance of Buildings Directive.

    You seem to be under the impression that every EU Directive is somehow 'forced' on Ireland above against the wishes of our national government. This is quite incorrect. The EPBD is an example of legislation that Ireland had a strong hand in drafting. The EPBD is also an example of where the member states agree to work together on an issue, in this case certification of the energy performance of buildings.

    The BER was actually introduced on 1st July 2008 for all new homes. Jan 1st 2009 was for all existing homes for sale or rent.


  • #32
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    taconnol wrote: »
    Um..the piece of legislation you quote there is Irish legislation. It is the implementation of the European Energy Performance of Buildings Directive. You seem to be under the impression that every EU Directive is somehow 'forced' on Ireland The BER was actually introduced on 1st July 2008 for all new homes. Jan 1st 2009 was for all existing homes for sale or rent.

    I am certainly under the impression that the Greens signed nothing into law in 2006 for implementation in 2008/2009 but that evidently does not stop them dishonestly claiming they did !!!

    Most of the rest of that list is equally dishonest :(


  • #33
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I am certainly under the impression that the Greens signed nothing into law in 2006 for implementation in 2008/2009 but that evidently does not stop them dishonestly claiming they did !!!
    Sponge Bob, I don't see where in the list the Greens claim that they signed it into law. They oversaw the implementation. And I might add that the law was delayed by over 18 months by certain political circles close to the CIF but would have been delayed even further had the Greens not pressed for it. The Greens also pressed for sufficient funds to be set aside for SEI to implement the scheme properly.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Most of the rest of that list is equally dishonest :(
    I'd certainly like to see you disprove them all.


  • #34
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It is your list, I challenge you to PROVE one of them because I am quite happy I can simply deconstruct any of that prattle :(


  • #35
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It is your list, I challenge you to PROVE one of them because I am quite happy I can simply deconstruct any of that prattle :(
    Au contraire, I've already stated my claims. If you want to waste your time here disproving them, be my guest. Don't expect me to do your heavy lifting for you.


  • #36
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    Just looking at the Special concervation area for the Tara / Gowra valley in the above post. I was under the impression that the Greens had abandoned Meath - Is the Special Conversation Area proposal to be delivered in place of the railway?


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  • #37
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    IIMII wrote: »
    Just looking at the Special concervation area for the Tara / Gowra valley in the above post. I was under the impression that the Greens had abandoned Meath - Is the Special Conversation Area proposal to be delivered in place of the railway?
    I think you're thinking of Special Area of Conservation (SAC) that are designated under the EU Habitats Directive.

    The Tara/Gowra Valley will be designated as a Landscape Conservation Area under the Planning and Development Act (2000). This means that no major developments can take place within the area (I believe the exact geographical area is to be outlined shortly). But AFAIK it would have no impact on the M3 road itself as it was Dick Roche that signed off the final legal document on that just before he left office in 2007.

    They also would push for Tara to be added to the list of UNESCO Heritage Sites.


  • #38
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    taconnol wrote: »
    The Tara/Gowra Valley will be designated as a Landscape Conservation Area under the Planning and Development Act (2000). This means that no major developments can take place within the area (I believe the exact geographical area is to be outlined shortly). But AFAIK it would have no impact on the M3 road itself as it was Dick Roche that signed off the final legal document on that just before he left office in 2007..

    But you mentioned the "National Monuments Bill 2009" in your glib cut and paste above, In typical green style this Bill will not be published in 2009 at all and will have to become the National Monuments Bill 2011 or something more apt like that .

    This is what YOU said .
    17 July 09: Landscape conservation area announced for Tara-Skryne valley: National Monuments Bill 2009 sets out to protect archaeological monuments and sites of importance



    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94296
    The latest scandal involves Gormley's own promises as Minister, to strengthen legal protections for national monuments and landscapes. In 2007 he promised new legislation the following year. Then it was promised for 2009, and formally described as The National Monuments (Amendment) Act 2009. Last week we informed by the Taniste that the bill will now not be published until 2010, at least

    Please do not refer to legislation that SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST despite Gormleys Promises . Here they be.

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Heritage/Archaeology-NationalMonumentsService/News/MainBody,20782,en.htm

    as for the Landscape Area ....Gormley only admitted he has started to talk about it . No designation has taken place at all .
    Tara-Skryne Landscape Conservation Area
    “I am also pleased to announce details in relation to a proposed new landscape management project which has been initiated to establish a Landscape Conservation Area in the Tara-Skryne area.

    In summary .

    1. No National Monuments Bill ( or Act ) in 2009
    2. No Landscape designation , merely discussions of same .

    Dishonest green spoofery and waffle . Next one please . Keep them coming !


  • #39
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    But you mentioned the "National Monuments Bill 2009" in your glib cut and paste above, In typical green style this Bill will not be published in 2009 at all and will have to become the National Monuments Bill 2011 or something more apt like that.
    Well, the Heads of the National Monuments Bill have already been approved and the texts are being prepared. If it ends up being 2010, so be it. We do happen to have a little thing called a global economic crisis to deal with.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Please do not refer to legislation that SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST despite Gormleys Promises . Here they be.
    Sponge Bob, the legislation is in the works. If the distinction between the two is too much for you to understand, well it's nothing to do with me.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    as for the Landscape Area ....Gormley only admitted he has started to talk about it . No designation has taken place at all .
    Of course no designation has taken place yet. Significant work needs to happen before hand. Again, I refer you to above statement on your apparent difficulty at differentiating between bills passing through the Dail and legislation that has been passed.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Dishonest green spoofery and waffle . Next one please . Keep them coming !
    Your aggressive tone does you no favours at all.


  • #40
    knipex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    Furet wrote: »
    So can anyone summarise, briefly, what exactly the Greens have achieved in government in terms of changes to planning laws and regulations, energy independence, and transport?

    BER
    Insulation (but no inspections)
    Lightbulbs

    I think thats it....


  • #41
    knipex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    taconnol wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm going to be very lazy but:

    28 Sep 09: €500million investment in Irish electricity sector: European Investment Bank helps secure Ireland’s green electricity supplies

    I don't think the greens or any political party for that matter can claim credit for what the EIB do.
    taconnol wrote: »
    11 Sep 09: Guidelines announced to prevent the over-zoning of land: New procedures in the Planning and Development Bill will result in improved city and county development plans

    There will be no significant building done for decades if not longer. You missed the boat on that one.
    taconnol wrote: »
    9 Sep 09: Fixed support prices introduced for new categories of renewable energy: Govt will pay fixed tariffs for CHP, biomass, wind energy and wave and tidal energy for 15 years

    And Ireland has the most expensive electricity in the developed world, are about to spend billions on a grid system to suit one off micro generation sites that will not provide secure or reliable power.

    At the same time we are spending million on capacity payments to gas generation plants to act as back up to there ludicrous "green" energy supplies.

    News flash. Cheap power is one of the most important factors as regards competitiveness.
    taconnol wrote: »
    17 July 09: Landscape conservation area announced for Tara-Skryne valley: National Monuments Bill 2009 sets out to protect archaeological monuments and sites of importance

    You must be joking.....
    taconnol wrote: »
    8 July 09: Most car dependent town in Ireland receives cycling funding: €1.2million made available to Carrigaline in Cork for a new cycling and walking network

    Have you seen the state of the road from Carrigaline to Cork city ? You would want to be suicidal to try want to cycle that.
    taconnol wrote: »

    1 July 09: New electronic planning system will improve the efficiency of applications for both individuals and local authorities

    About time but again the building boom is dead.
    taconnol wrote: »
    22 June 09: Next Generation Broadband Strategy published: Document forms part of a wider strategy to develop Ireland as a smart economy

    Will you do me a favour and tell Eamon Ryan that 3G is not broadband. is not recognised as broadband and as a result his pet national broadband scheme is a joke. Next gen my ass. Our infrastructure particularly the last mile is joke.
    Line pairing is still a common issue for gods sake.
    taconnol wrote: »

    17 June 09: 1.3 million subscribers to broadband in Ireland: Report shows numbers up by 28% since 2008

    Again 3G is not broadband so should be removed from the report. 3G is a mobile data service nothing more. I use it for that purpose and also have a DSL connection so that means I am counted twice.

    Pop into the Ireland Off Line forum.
    taconnol wrote: »
    14 June 09: €16 million in insulation grants for 12,000 homes: Home energy scheme huge success as 2,000 tradespeople register to carry out home improvement works

    Credit where it is due. But you need to appoint independent inspectors to ensure guidelines are followed and that these 2,000 trades people are not cowboys.
    taconnol wrote: »

    4 June 09: €5million announced for cycling infrastructure: including city centre section of the Sutton to Sandycove cycleway in Dublin

    Personally YAWN but then perhaps others have a more valid opinion.
    taconnol wrote: »

    28 May 09: Planning Bill published: New bill will ensure transparency, openness and democratic involvement in planning process to avoid rezoning disasters of the past

    Again a bit late.
    taconnol wrote: »
    12 May 09: Directly elected Mayor for Dublin: Mayor will be charged with delivering reliable, integrated and cost effective transport for Dublin; new role will transform public’s connection with local government

    And how much will that cost ? Ia there not already a Dublin transport authority ?
    taconnol wrote: »
    3 April 09: New electric vehicle agreement signed: Eamon Ryan and the ESB sign Memoranda of understanding with Renault-Nissan to ensure the delivery of electric vehicles to the Irish market

    Ahh that electricity generated by ...... er coal in the main... The efficiencies of electric vehicles are at best questionable with multiple losses. Also electric vehicles are as of yet a novel idea rather than a practical alternative. Limited range and speed and size mean they are essentially urban short distance units.
    taconnol wrote: »
    8 Feb 09: €100m national insulation scheme announced. Scheme which will create 4,000 jobs, upgrade 50,000 homes and save householders €700 per year on heating bills

    As above.

    Also on the math. Divide 100 million by 4,000 jobs.. Then subtract material costs and you are paying people under minimum wage. its math like that destroys your credibility.
    taconnol wrote: »
    5 Feb 09: Government launches ‘Smarter Travel - A Sustainable Transport Future’ which commits to getting 500,000 commuters out of their cars and 150,000 extra workers cycling every day. The plan will slash CO2 emissions by 4 million tones.

    Not seen that one yet. But you assume that 150,000 workers are in a position to cycle... That's a big assumption...

    taconnol wrote: »
    4 Feb 09: Double digit decrease in energy prices will be introduced this year, as Eamon Ryan announces Commission for Energy Regulation Review

    30 Jan 09: Additional €4 million announced to fund Galway water infrastructure

    Still the highest electricity prices in the developed world.
    taconnol wrote: »

    28 Jan 09: European Commission awards €100m to fund an electricity interconnector between Ireland and the UK to secure energy supply

    So we can import nuclear power to back up the half ass ed "wind power" program that's costing us a fortune. That is building small wind farms in areas with load factors as low as 20%.
    taconnol wrote: »
    1 Jan 09: New energy rating system introduced for all homes for sale or rent. The BER system will rate each home on its energy efficiency, with A being the highest and G the lowest.

    Again credit where it is due but one mistake. testers should have been accredited and independent not associated with insulation companies which is a clear conflict of interest.
    taconnol wrote: »
    1 Jan 09:Green Party launches campaign to promote the Cycle to Work scheme introduced in Budget 2009. Workers will receive up to €1,000 tax break to buy a bicycle and accessories

    Again with the cycling. Whats that 3 or 4 of your points relating to cycling... Out of curiosity what has the take up been like ??
    That's just in 2009.


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  • #42
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    taconnol wrote: »
    4 June 09: €5million announced for cycling infrastructure: including city centre section of the Sutton to Sandycove cycleway in Dublin

    This has been in the works for so long it's getting boring. If work starts in the next year, I'll be impressed but in the meantime, I remain sceptical.
    taconnol wrote: »
    12 May 09: Directly elected Mayor for Dublin: Mayor will be charged with delivering reliable, integrated and cost effective transport for Dublin; new role will transform public’s connection with local government

    It's too late for this now. Demsey has scuppered the plan from under the Greens by changing the DTA (chaired by the Mayor) into an NTA which reports to the Dail. No change, no improvement and no local representation. There may be a mayor but they'll have no control over public transport which was, for me, one of the main reasons for introducing that position.
    3 April 09: New electric vehicle agreement signed: Eamon Ryan and the ESB sign Memoranda of understanding with Renault-Nissan to ensure the delivery of electric vehicles to the Irish market

    I hadn't heard anything about that, I'll be interested to see what happens.


  • #43
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    taconnol wrote: »
    I think you're thinking of Special Area of Conservation (SAC) that are designated under the EU Habitats Directive.

    The Tara/Gowra Valley will be designated as a Landscape Conservation Area under the Planning and Development Act (2000). This means that no major developments can take place within the area (I believe the exact geographical area is to be outlined shortly). But AFAIK it would have no impact on the M3 road itself as it was Dick Roche that signed off the final legal document on that just before he left office in 2007.

    They also would push for Tara to be added to the list of UNESCO Heritage Sites.
    Great. But I wanted to know is Meath getting this instead of the railway? And I don't mean the mile or so across the border from Dublin through Dunboyne.


  • #44
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    knipex wrote: »
    I don't think the greens or any political party for that matter can claim credit for what the EIB do.
    Incorrect. Firstly, the EIB set up the €1.5bn fund last year in response to requests from finance ministers and EU leaders, including the Irish. Secondly, the EIB will not just invest anywhere - and the political and regulatory framework for investment is vital.
    knipex wrote: »
    There will be no significant building done for decades if not longer. You missed the boat on that one.
    Maybe not but the law is there for the future.
    knipex wrote: »
    And Ireland has the most expensive electricity in the developed world, are about to spend billions on a grid system to suit one off micro generation sites that will not provide secure or reliable power.

    At the same time we are spending million on capacity payments to gas generation plants to act as back up to there ludicrous "green" energy supplies.

    News flash. Cheap power is one of the most important factors as regards competitiveness.
    This part is totally off the mark. We spend €6 billion a year importing energy into this country. Why exactly do you think we have some of the most expensive electricity? Because we buy it off the international market where we are totally open to the vagaries of the market. The IEA has identified us has having significant energy security issues and serious investment in domestic energy ie renewables is advised.

    Moreover the hydro etc is not going to be micro-generation for the most part. It's pretty obvious you're not familiar with the renewable energy industry in Ireland or you wouldn't make such uninformed comments.
    knipex wrote: »
    You must be joking.....
    In the face of such flawless logic, how can I resist??
    knipex wrote: »
    Have you seen the state of the road from Carrigaline to Cork city ? You would want to be suicidal to try want to cycle that.
    The cycling network will be IN Carrigaline.
    knipex wrote: »
    About time but again the building boom is dead.
    And what exactly do you expect the Greens to do about that? Bring it back so the laws are more relevant?
    knipex wrote: »
    Will you do me a favour and tell Eamon Ryan that 3G is not broadband. is not recognised as broadband and as a result his pet national broadband scheme is a joke. Next gen my ass. Our infrastructure particularly the last mile is joke.
    Line pairing is still a common issue for gods sake.
    Fair enough, I do not know much about broadband.
    knipex wrote: »
    Credit where it is due. But you need to appoint independent inspectors to ensure guidelines are followed and that these 2,000 trades people are not cowboys.
    All tradesman are on an SEI-approved suppliers list. All installations are covered under standard insurance.
    knipex wrote: »
    Personally YAWN but then perhaps others have a more valid opinion.
    Well good luck to you in your car but for those of us who cycle and give a crap about cycling this is good news. And I'll remind you that for every cyclist there is one less car on the road that gives you more space and parking space. Oh and less air pollution and rates of respiratory disease (and less burden on our nation's hospitals as people partake in regular exercise) but then again YAWN to all that.
    knipex wrote: »
    Again a bit late.
    Again, I don't know what you expect the Greens to do about that.
    knipex wrote: »
    And how much will that cost ? Ia there not already a Dublin transport authority ?
    Oh come on. You are NOT going to whinge about a direcly elected DUblin Mayor because of the cost. We already HAVE a Dublin Mayor. How do you expect Dublin to have a coherent interconnected policy in areas like transportation, planning and infrastructure if each decision is being made by central government or by a different body? Look at Bordeaux or London where they have a directly elected mayor. Go talk to the DTO, people involved in the day-to-day planning of transportation in the GDA and they'll tell you what they think of a directly elected Dublin Mayor - about bloody time.
    knipex wrote: »
    Ahh that electricity generated by ...... er coal in the main... The efficiencies of electric vehicles are at best questionable with multiple losses. Also electric vehicles are as of yet a novel idea rather than a practical alternative. Limited range and speed and size mean they are essentially urban short distance units.
    Oh yes, because Ireland doesn't have any renewable energy...oh except wait they do. With targets to significantly increase, particularly in the area of offshore wind. Electric vehicles are not at best questionable - they are more efficient that FF cars and yes they are better for urban but so what? The vast majority of car trips in this country are short ones. New versions are coming out with bigger range, speed and size. There will also be electric powering stations in the form of petrol stations being rolled out in the future.

    On an aside, we really need to get away from this mentality that one thing is going to solve everything. Electric cars only work in urban areas so forget about it. No. Electric cars are PART of the solution.
    knipex wrote: »
    As above.
    Ditto.
    knipex wrote: »
    Also on the math. Divide 100 million by 4,000 jobs.. Then subtract material costs and you are paying people under minimum wage. its math like that destroys your credibility.
    Do I really have to go through the basic economics of the multiplying factor, etc? The impact of investment on job creation?
    knipex wrote: »
    Not seen that one yet. But you assume that 150,000 workers are in a position to cycle... That's a big assumption...
    Where's your proof that the assumption is not fact? Go check out the 2006 Census. It is fact. The average commuting distance is 15kms. That means that there are thousands of people whose commuting distance is a very doable 5-10kms. And there are those that commute even further already.
    knipex wrote: »
    Still the highest electricity prices in the developed world.
    And what? You dismiss renewable energy as a source of indigenous energy yet complain about high electricity prices.
    knipex wrote: »
    So we can import nuclear power to back up the half ass ed "wind power" program that's costing us a fortune. That is building small wind farms in areas with load factors as low as 20%.
    *sigh* No so that we can become part of the European supergrid and export wind energy when it exceeds our national demand.
    knipex wrote: »
    Again credit where it is due but one mistake. testers should have been accredited and independent not associated with insulation companies which is a clear conflict of interest.
    Testers are accredited, are checked at least annually. Random checking of BERs also takes place. And they are not allowed to carry out tests on houses belonging to work/family connections.
    knipex wrote: »
    Again with the cycling. Whats that 3 or 4 of your points relating to cycling... Out of curiosity what has the take up been like ??
    I don't know - I don't have access to official figures. The Dublin bikes scheme has been a runaway success.


  • #45
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The Nissan Renault Scam

    http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1019862_ireland-esb-and-renault-nissan-announce-alliance

    April 3rd, 2009
    Energy Minister Eamon Ryan announced a new alliance that will put electric cars on Irish motorways in two years.

    So that would be by April 2011

    This is but one of 27 Partnership deals that Nissan entered before they announced the Nissan Leaf ...due in 2010

    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/01/2010-nissan-leaf-electric-car-in-person-in-depth-and-u-s-b/
    Nissan says it has established 27 partnerships with local governments around the world, and more are on the way. If you're outside of such areas, Nissan says it won't discourage you from becoming an owner/lessee, but obviously home charging will need to be sufficient.

    Finding Fuel

    How will Leaf drivers find these public charging stations? Every example will be equipped with an integrated computer system that is connected to a GPS system and global data center, allowing the Leaf to display its "reachable area" on its sat-nav screen, as well as the location of nearby charging stations. That same advanced IT system can also communicate with the owner's smart phone, sending them emails to let them know their vehicle's state of charge, allow users to pre-cool or pre-warm the Leaf while it's charging (thus drawing power from the grid and not depleting the onboard batteries), and the system can even be programmed to charge in the middle-of-the-night to take advantage of lower energy costs.

    I hope nobody told Ryan about this :p


  • #46
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    markpb wrote: »
    This has been in the works for so long it's getting boring. If work starts in the next year, I'll be impressed but in the meantime, I remain sceptical.
    Well it's already almost complete between town and Howth. I've cycled it a few times myself.
    markpb wrote: »
    It's too late for this now. Demsey has scuppered the plan from under the Greens by changing the DTA (chaired by the Mayor) into an NTA which reports to the Dail. No change, no improvement and no local representation. There may be a mayor but they'll have no control over public transport which was, for me, one of the main reasons for introducing that position.
    Public transport may have been one of the main reasons but there are other important infrastructural issues the Mayor can handle. And the position is open to being changed in future to include public transportation.
    markpb wrote: »
    I hadn't heard anything about that, I'll be interested to see what happens.
    Well they aren't the only ones in the field. I've been in meetings with other foreign companies interested in investing. Personally, I think the government should remain agnostic on which type of car to go for.
    IIMII wrote: »
    Great. But I wanted to know is Meath getting this instead of the railway? And I don't mean the mile or so across the border from Dublin through Dunboyne.
    I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this issue. Can you elaborate?


  • #47
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    taconnol wrote: »
    I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this issue.
    Don't worry about it - that seems to be the common Green response about the Navan line for a while now. John Gormley and Trevor Sargent banged on about the railway for years, and Trevor Sargent said a few years ago that if the Greens were in Governement it would already have been built, etc.

    All that has gone out the window apparently, and we have this SAC instead it seems.


  • #48
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    IIMII wrote: »
    Don't worry about it - that seems to be the common Green response about the Navan line for a while now. John Gormley and Trevor Sargent banged on about the railway for years, and Trevor Sargent said a few years ago that if the Greens were in Governement it would already have been built, etc.

    All that has gone out the window apparently, and we have this SAC instead it seems.
    Hang on a sec - I didn't claim to speak on behalf of the Green party. I'm a member but have only been a member for a few months now. I'm not their spokesperson and I'm not familiar with the issue.

    That is a really dismissive response and uncalled for. If you had taken the time to give me a few more details, I could have gone and checked it out.


  • #49
    knipex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    taconnol wrote: »
    Incorrect. Firstly, the EIB set up the €1.5bn fund last year in response to requests from finance ministers and EU leaders, including the Irish. Secondly, the EIB will not just invest anywhere - and the political and regulatory framework for investment is vital.

    And who exactly is our Finance Minister.... Unless he changed parties recently he is not a Green.

    taconnol wrote: »
    This part is totally off the mark. We spend €6 billion a year importing energy into this country. Why exactly do you think we have some of the most expensive electricity? Because we buy it off the international market where we are totally open to the vagaries of the market. The IEA has identified us has having significant energy security issues and serious investment in domestic energy ie renewables is advised.

    Moreover the hydro etc is not going to be micro-generation for the most part. It's pretty obvious you're not familiar with the renewable energy industry in Ireland or you wouldn't make such uninformed comments.

    Far far more informed than you (or the Green party for that matter.)

    We import 6 billion worth of energy. but less than 3 billion of that is related to electricity.

    Ireland is not the only country developed country with no oil or even limited gas supplies yet we still have the highest electricity costs in Europe...

    Our Whole sale generation prices are actually pretty OK its the retail prices that are out of whack....

    Do some research on the topic...

    The Green party and this country have a fetish for wind power and seem to be of the opinion that it is free. Its not. There are HUGE capital costs associated with wind. Somewhere in the region of 1.5 million plus per MW installed. That is before you take load factor into account which varied from 20% to high 30's depending on location. Lets assume an (generous) average of 30% that means a generation cost of 5 million per Mw output. That is order of magnitude higher than the capital cost for oil or gas and icomparable with coal. That higher capital cost has to be paid for.

    Wind power is also unreliable and insecure so requires a backup so we are in the ridiculous situation where we are paying companies capacity payments to build CGT gas stations to back up our existing and planned wind supply . We are paying companies not to generate electricity unless the wind does down...... As well as paying a subsidy to the wind generating companies.

    The interconnects will address this by allowing us to buy cheap nuclear power from France and the UK.

    Wind power is the next .com or property bubble
    taconnol wrote: »
    In the face of such flawless logic, how can I resist??


    The cycling network will be IN Carrigaline.

    Carrigaline is a commuter town so it is in effect useless. The vast majority of traffic in Carrigaline is commuter traffic going to and from work in Ringaskiddy and elsewhere. How exactly will a cycle network in Carrigaline help that ?
    taconnol wrote: »

    And what exactly do you expect the Greens to do about that? Bring it back so the laws are more relevant?

    It brings to mind shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. You shout loud enough about it but it will actually do very little.

    taconnol wrote: »
    All tradesman are on an SEI-approved suppliers list. All installations are covered under standard insurance.

    And how do you get on the SEI approved list ? Is their knowledge tested, training checked, ? (answer is you apply, pay and no-one checks anything but the consumer assumes that as they are approved....)
    taconnol wrote: »
    Well good luck to you in your car but for those of us who cycle and give a crap about cycling this is good news. And I'll remind you that for every cyclist there is one less car on the road that gives you more space and parking space. Oh and less air pollution and rates of respiratory disease (and less burden on our nation's hospitals as people partake in regular exercise) but then again YAWN to all that.


    Ah yes a few cycle lanes in Dublin will do sooooooo much to address that.. And as for every cyclist taking a car off the road... Are you serious... People in the main cycle for exercise and fun, not as a mode of transport.

    I live in a commuter village just outside Limerick. We have two bus services a day to Limerick. At 10am to Limerick and at 4pm, from Limerick. ideal times for commuters. No cycle lane will help that...
    taconnol wrote: »

    Again, I don't know what you expect the Greens to do about that.

    Stop pretending its a big deal... its not.
    taconnol wrote: »

    Oh come on. You are NOT going to whinge about a directly elected DUblin Mayor because of the cost. We already HAVE a Dublin Mayor. How do you expect Dublin to have a coherent interconnected policy in areas like transportation, planning and infrastructure if each decision is being made by central government or by a different body? Look at Bordeaux or London where they have a directly elected mayor. Go talk to the DTO, people involved in the day-to-day planning of transportation in the GDA and they'll tell you what they think of a directly elected Dublin Mayor - about bloody time.

    I asked abut the DTA ? Why elect a politician to do a job that needs a professional ? Local politicians have been so wonderful at planning haven't they ?
    taconnol wrote: »
    Oh yes, because Ireland doesn't have any renewable energy...oh except wait they do. With targets to significantly increase, particularly in the area of offshore wind. Electric vehicles are not at best questionable - they are more efficient that FF cars and yes they are better for urban but so what? The vast majority of car trips in this country are short ones. New versions are coming out with bigger range, speed and size. There will also be electric powering stations in the form of petrol stations being rolled out in the future.

    So the wind will blow when the cars are being charged ?

    So you are going to build charging station ? How long does it take to charge a battery ? Very convenient.... (or did you not think of that ? how about battery swapping ? did you ensure that the two companies mentioned make compatible batteries and that they can be easily removed ? Didn't think of that either ?
    Out of curiosity what is the range of an electric car ? (real range using things like wipers and lights and window demisters and radios not the fantasy range) are you going to roll out stations close enough to suit that ?
    taconnol wrote: »
    On an aside, we really need to get away from this mentality that one thing is going to solve everything. Electric cars only work in urban areas so forget about it. No. Electric cars are PART of the solution.

    A very very small part.

    taconnol wrote: »
    Do I really have to go through the basic economics of the multiplying factor, etc? The impact of investment on job creation?

    Do I have to explain that 100 million will only go so far.

    100 million divided by 4,000 is 25K assuming 50% materials that's 12.5K...

    100 million is a finite amount and even if spent every year for ever will not result in 4,000 jobs or anything close to it. Inf at I am willing to bet that at least 20% of it will go on exports.
    taconnol wrote: »
    Where's your proof that the assumption is not fact? Go check out the 2006 Census. It is fact. The average commuting distance is 15kms. That means that there are thousands of people whose commuting distance is a very doable 5-10kms. And there are those that commute even further already.

    And all those people are in a position to cycle ? They don't carry tools etc ? Are fit and able bodied ?

    it's an assumption based on poor logic.
    taconnol wrote: »

    And what? You dismiss renewable energy as a source of indigenous energy yet complain about high electricity prices.

    You really don't get it. Our high energy prices are because of a poorly planned and executed renewable energy program. Not in spite of it.

    Renewable energy is part of a solution but has limitations. As I explained wind energy is not cheap yet you persist with the assumption ti will address our electricity costs. You support Wind farms in areas where load factor is as low as 20% when any one with a calculator and a little knowledge knows that anything under 35% is crazy and will result in massive electricity costs.

    Less assumptions and poorly thought out green ideology and a little more rational thinking and planning. Less hyperbole and more deliver ables.

    taconnol wrote: »
    *sigh* No so that we can become part of the European supergrid and export wind energy when it exceeds our national demand.

    LOL peddle that somewhere else. We have the most expensive electricity in the developed world and you expect us to be able to sell it on the international markets ? I have no doubt that we will export wind power but only on the spot market. Guess what wind power is worth on the spot market ???

    We will be using the inter connectors as a backup to our mass of poorly planned wind-farms, to ensure security of supply and as a result will still be subject to the fluctuations on the international electricity prices.

    taconnol wrote: »
    Testers are accredited, are checked at least annually. Random checking of BERs also takes place. And they are not allowed to carry out tests on houses belonging to work/family connections.

    How many testers work for companies that supply and fit insulation ?

    Its a clear conflict of interest.
    taconnol wrote: »
    I don't know - I don't have access to official figures. The Dublin bikes scheme has been a runaway success.

    I didnt ask you about Dublin bikes. I asked you about the green party policy implementations you touted.


  • #50
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    knipex wrote: »
    And who exactly is our Finance Minister.... Unless he changed parties recently he is not a Green.
    I said Finance Ministers AND other members of national governments.
    knipex wrote: »
    We import 6 billion worth of energy. but less than 3 billion of that is related to electricity.
    Try factoring in the electrification of transport.
    knipex wrote: »
    The Green party and this country have a fetish for wind power and seem to be of the opinion that it is free. Its not. There are HUGE capital costs associated with wind. Somewhere in the region of 1.5 million plus per MW installed. That is before you take load factor into account which varied from 20% to high 30's depending on location. Lets assume an (generous) average of 30% that means a generation cost of 5 million per Mw output. That is order of magnitude higher than the capital cost for oil or gas and icomparable with coal. That higher capital cost has to be paid for.

    Wind power is also unreliable and insecure so requires a backup so we are in the ridiculous situation where we are paying companies capacity payments to build CGT gas stations to back up our existing and planned wind supply . We are paying companies not to generate electricity unless the wind does down...... As well as paying a subsidy to the wind generating companies.

    The interconnects will address this by allowing us to buy cheap nuclear power from France and the UK.
    Sorry, where did I say that it was free? Strawman. Do some research. I recommend Simon Awerbuch and his work on application of portfolio theory to renewables. Approximately 95% of the costs of wind energy are up front. O&M costs are minimal. You also don't have to worry about pollution or offsetting of carbon, given that those are actual costs.
    knipex wrote: »
    Wind power is the next .com or property bubble
    Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise there was plenty of energy to go around. Silly me.
    knipex wrote: »
    Carrigaline is a commuter town so it is in effect useless. The vast majority of traffic in Carrigaline is commuter traffic going to and from work in Ringaskiddy and elsewhere. How exactly will a cycle network in Carrigaline help that ?
    I have no doubt that a lot of traffic goes between Carrigaline and Cork. But there are services/locations within Carrigaline that people access by car and the point of the cycle network is to allow people to access those routes by bike.
    knipex wrote: »
    It brings to mind shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. You shout loud enough about it but it will actually do very little.
    Again, I don't really know what you expect the Greens to do about that - they weren't in power pre-2007.
    knipex wrote: »
    And how do you get on the SEI approved list ? Is their knowledge tested, training checked, ? (answer is you apply, pay and no-one checks anything but the consumer assumes that as they are approved....)
    Incorrect. The tradesmen have to provide evidence of qualifications and their backgrounds are checked. Now who's assuming what?
    knipex wrote: »
    Ah yes a few cycle lanes in Dublin will do sooooooo much to address that.. And as for every cyclist taking a car off the road... Are you serious... People in the main cycle for exercise and fun, not as a mode of transport.
    Sorry but you don't even cycle. Don't assume to know exactly why everyone does and does not cycle. How do you think cities like Amsterdam get the majority of people commuting by bicycle if "people in the main cycle for exercise and fun, not as a mode of transport". I have been cycling in Dublin for 6 years, worked in the DTO and I understand what makes people want to cycle and not. The main obstacle is fear for their safety and cycle lanes go a long way in providing proper space for cyclists on the roads and a sense of priority in that space.
    knipex wrote: »
    I live in a commuter village just outside Limerick. We have two bus services a day to Limerick. At 10am to Limerick and at 4pm, from Limerick. ideal times for commuters. No cycle lane will help that...
    See above.
    knipex wrote: »
    Stop pretending its a big deal... its not.
    You don't think having a more transparent planning process is a big deal? Wow.
    knipex wrote: »
    I asked abut the DTA ? Why elect a politician to do a job that needs a professional ? Local politicians have been so wonderful at planning haven't they ?
    The point was about the Mayor. I don't see what your problem is the elected mayor position. The position is a political one. You are aware that the current mayor is not a professional either?

    knipex wrote: »
    So the wind will blow when the cars are being charged ?
    knipex, please go and look up demand management or V2G technology or storage capabilities. Anyway, most cars will be charged up at night when there is a valley in the demand curve.
    knipex wrote: »
    So you are going to build charging station ? How long does it take to charge a battery ? Very convenient.... (or did you not think of that ? how about battery swapping ? did you ensure that the two companies mentioned make compatible batteries and that they can be easily removed ? Didn't think of that either ?
    Did I say I was going to build a charging station? No. I said there are private businesses who are going to start building a charging station. Research in the US is working on bringing charging times down to 3 minutes. There will also be the ability to charge in your house at night. Again more lack of knowledge - battery swapping is not going to work.

    Note: It would be nice if you didn't use language that sets me up as the government/green party. I am a member of the greens but I don't speak on behalf of them and nor the government. It really is unnecessarily aggressive.
    knipex wrote: »
    Out of curiosity what is the range of an electric car ? (real range using things like wipers and lights and window demisters and radios not the fantasy range) are you going to roll out stations close enough to suit that ?
    THe Mitsubishi i-Miev has a range of 160kms. It's my understanding that the stations will be rolled out in Dublin first. Seriously, you would think that fossil fuel cars have limitless range the way you're talking.
    knipex wrote: »
    A very very small part.
    I'll just stick with my own opinion on the issue.
    knipex wrote: »
    Do I have to explain that 100 million will only go so far.
    Please go over to the Irish Economy forum - I'm really not going to go into the economics of investment and job creation here.
    knipex wrote: »
    And all those people are in a position to cycle ? They don't carry tools etc ? Are fit and able bodied ?

    it's an assumption based on poor logic.
    Did I say that all of them were the above? No. But again it will be part of the solution. As I said, there are cities where the majority of commuters travel by bike. We may not get the same numbers but the tiny 5% of cycling commuters we have now would be very easy to improve on.
    knipex wrote: »
    You really don't get it. Our high energy prices are because of a poorly planned and executed renewable energy program. Not in spite of it.
    Hang on a sec - you just said the wholesale price wasn't bad and it was the retail price. But now it's all the fault of our renewable energy programme?
    knipex wrote: »
    Renewable energy is part of a solution but has limitations. As I explained wind energy is not cheap yet you persist with the assumption ti will address our electricity costs.
    Well that's been knocked on the head - see above.
    knipex wrote: »
    You support Wind farms in areas where load factor is as low as 20% when any one with a calculator and a little knowledge knows that anything under 35% is crazy and will result in massive electricity costs.
    More is going to be built offshore with higher load factors. Again re costs, see above.
    knipex wrote: »
    LOL peddle that somewhere else. We have the most expensive electricity in the developed world and you expect us to be able to sell it on the international markets ? I have no doubt that we will export wind power but only on the spot market. Guess what wind power is worth on the spot market ???

    We will be using the inter connectors as a backup to our mass of poorly planned wind-farms, to ensure security of supply and as a result will still be subject to the fluctuations on the international electricity prices.
    Given that we have been identified by Andris Pielbags as having the greatest wind and wave energy resources in Europe, I think your doom and gloom analysis is more than a little wide of the mark. And again I refer you to Awerbuch's work on the economics of wind power.

    knipex wrote: »
    How many testers work for companies that supply and fit insulation ?

    Its a clear conflict of interest.
    I think there are sufficient checks and balances in place. There is a code of practice, BER assessors are regularly audited and thrown of the register if they commit any offences. And some have already been thrown off.
    knipex wrote: »
    I didnt ask you about Dublin bikes. I asked you about the green party policy implementations you touted.
    And I've already said I didn't have the figure on it. Why are you repeating it again?

    Jesus I've never read such naysaying, negative posts.


  • #51
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    taconnol wrote: »
    Hang on a sec - I didn't claim to speak on behalf of the Green party. I'm a member but have only been a member for a few months now. I'm not their spokesperson and I'm not familiar with the issue.

    That is a really dismissive response and uncalled for. If you had taken the time to give me a few more details, I could have gone and checked it out.
    Apologies. I've just got a bit of a bee in my bonnet with the Green's on this issue - it was nearly as if they used the issue to give the impression of a vision on improved public transport, and then dumped it at the door to Leinster house on being elected to Government. It wasn't aimed at you personally


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