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Infrastructure in the new Programme for Government
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knipex
Out of curiosity what is the range of an electric car ? (real range using things like wipers and lights and window demisters and radios not the fantasy range) are you going to roll out stations close enough to suit that ?
THe Mitsubishi i-Miev has a range of 160kms. It's my understanding that the stations will be rolled out in Dublin first. Seriously, you would think that fossil fuel cars have limitless range the way you're talking.
Ryan specifically launched the Nissan Leaf with 'a vision' of electric cars on our "MOTORWAYS" by 2011 to quote Ryan, now we find the chargers will not be installed outside the M50 .
I suppose a towtruck could bring it back to Dublin all the same
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Ah Sponge Bob, I said that they would start in Dublin. I didn't say they wouldn't put them outside Dublin as well.Sponge Bob wrote: »Ryan specifically launched the Nissan Leaf with 'a vision' of electric cars on our "MOTORWAYS" by 2011 to quote Ryan, now we find the chargers will not be installed outside the M50 .
I suppose a towtruck could bring it back to Dublin all the same
Personally I find the motorway comment, if that's what he said, a bit odd because at the moment the technology is such that petrol cars are actually more efficient on motorways, going at a steady speed. Perhaps he was referring to PHEVs, which are also a grid car.0 -
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I also said that policy framework is important for attracting investment. You have done nothing to refute my claim.No your initial post claimed full credit for the Greens. A claim that does not stand up.
Look, comments like this are unnecessary. Disagreement does not automatically mean the other person does not understand. I'm not interested in proving you don't understand, I'm interested in having a debate. I'm open to being proven wrong, and its always nice in a debate if both people are open to ideas.You still don't understand.
How will the transfer of some transport from fossil fuel to electricity not decrease imports, assuming we also increase indigenous supplies of electricity (ie renewables)?6 billion in energy imports which includes heating oil, diesel, petrol, gas etc. less than 3 billion of this is for electricity.
Moving cars from petrol and diesel to electricity will not change that total.
knipex, the modern petrol car is not efficient - it is about 20% efficient. BEVs are a lot more efficient, but you're right about power distribution systems Power plants are about 35% efficient, but then you have to factor in transmission losses. At the moment I'd say they're both at par.Look at the efficiency of a modern diesel engine.
Now look at the efficiency of a power generation plant.
The efficiency of power distribution systems (including transformation stages)
Look at the efficiency of a charging system the efficiency of the battery and the electric motors.
However, improvements are being made in the efficiency of transmission and a key point is that any improvements in the efficiency of a petrol/diesel car take about 10-15years to spread (time it takes to replace the national fleet). Whereas with BEVs, any improvement in electricity generation or transmission will be passed down the chain almost instantly.
There are other issues like the obviously increasing scarcity of oil and the fluctuations in price. Transport is a tricky one and electric vehicles will never replace a decently designed urban space with proper cycling and transport links to reduce dependency on private cars.
What price for oil are you taking? Factoring in carbon taxes? You have not provided any figures to back up your claims.And You call me a straw man. I agree with you that the costs are all up front. Its the level of those costs that you clearly do not understand. 5 million per MW output is orders of magnitude more expensive that gas, oil coal or nuclear. At 30% efficiency and a life of 25 years power generated by wind is much more expensive than power generated by gas coal or oil. The difference in capital costs more than covers the cost of the fuel...
As I've already said, most MW for future installation will be offshore.As for the pollution issue........ What is the greatest carbon sink in Ireland ? Where are wind farms installed ?
Are you trying to argue that fossil fuels are comparable with renewables in terms of other types of pollution? I didn't say that they were pollution free - another strawman (you seem to like to look at things in absolutes).Wind Turbines are energy intensive to manufacture, ship and install. They are not pollution free any more than they produce free power. I have looked for but failed to find any independent research looking at the true environmental cost of wind turbines from design to disposal but what little bits I have been able to find shows that they are far from pollution free.
Where is this independent research?Not silly just miss informed. So some independent research as to the true cost of wind power.
Again, go look at offshore - Ireland has 10 times the amount of sea area as it does land. We also don't have to go as far offshore as Germany and other countries to get decent load factors.Load factor is the critical issue regarding the feasibility of wind power and there are not an infinite number of sites where higher load factors are available.
Perhaps at the moment backup is required but with greater interconnection and demand management technology, baseload capacity can be reduced.Even with a 35% load factor there will be significant periods of low or no power availability. Blackouts are not acceptable so alternative generation capacity needs to be kept as a backup.
That doesn't make sense. At times when we have oversupply there is no reason why we cannot export wind energy.At the moment we are paying companies to build CGT generation plants purely to act as a backup for wind. As no business will invest in a power station when they are only allowed to sell power when their competitors (wind) cannot so we are paying them a capacity payment just to be available in case we need them...........
Wind without storage is not a reliable or secure power supply which is why it is worthless for exports.
This ignores the fact that many members states have EU obligations for final energy consumption to come from renewables. You're working purely off economics and ignoring the policy.It is also expensive which makes to uncompetitive in an export market.
Carrigaline, like any town, has local services and destinations that can be reached by bicycle if the will is there. Investment in cycle/pedestrian facilities will encourage people to leave their cars at home and walk or cycle instead. The plan also provides for facilities between Crosshaven and Carrigaline, a significant commuting route. The distance is only 5km - a very doable distance for cyclying to work.Have you ever actually been to Carrigaline ? Do you know what shift patterns are like in the area ?
More 'all or nothing' logic. I'm aware of the urban patterns in Amsterdam and how they differ from here. The reality is over 200,000 people commute less than 4kms to work every day in Ireland. Many could and would not commute by bicycle/walking/public transport but many would if the right incentives were put in place. You think Amsterdam doesn't have any self-employed plumbers?Do you have a problem with maps ? Look at Amsterdam and look where people live relative to where they work.
Look at Ireland and look at where people live relative to where they work.
Its not rocket science it involves look at the reality around you. A minority of people will be able to cycle to work the majority will not. Picking a figure of 150,000 based on the commute distance quoted in the census is a joke.
Imagine your a self employed plumber. What is your commute ?
A sales man ?
There are many reasons why a short commute would be recorded on the census but would prevent you cycling.
Oh but planning policy has to come from somewhere. I don't think the Mayor of Dublin should be directly in charge of planning but in charge of making policy that influences planning decisions I don't see why GDA planing policy should be set by government, as it currently is. I gave the example of Bordeaux of a city where a directly elected mayor has done excellent work with the city in terms of planning, public transport and other infrastructure.Having a politician in charge result in a transparent planning system ? That where we have been going wrong....
<snip>
Planning should be the responsibility of professionals with overall policy set by government.
? If you have something to say, say it. Electric cars will be charged at the person's house overnight.Oh this is an area i know a little about. So cars are going ts use charging stations overnight.... Very .......... convenient......
Source?A 3 minute charge is years away at best and drive efficiencies down even further resulting in more power wastage.
I'm not confused - it's just not as black and white as you like to make it out to be. Personally, I see PHEVs as the best solution if people want grid cars that will also have a decent range in the near future.You also seem to be confused on this topic. you tell me that electric cars are for urban use only then you have a discussion with Spongebob about motorway usage.
I disagree. I think that if charging stations are located in areas like shopping centre car parks, or places where people will be willing to stop off for more than 20 minutes, there is no problem.Based on current technology charging stations are a joke as charging times are two long.
It will work where you drive in for work, charge the car while in the office and then drive home but will not work like a petrol station as you previously implied. The range and refueling times mean that electric cars are only suitable for a small minority....
I was not claiming credit. Another poster asked for details on what the Green Party had achieved and I obliged. I am defending their positions but that does not mean you need to use such confrontational language.You were quite happy to make a post claiming allot of credit on their behalf. If you make claims like that then be prepared to defend them.
As I've already said, I don't mind claims being challenged. It is your tone that is aggressive and dismissive.You made claims, I challenged them and you call be aggressive.
Get a grip.
Source?The i-Miev will not do 160 kms in actual usage when you need to use lights, wipers and even want to turn on the radio.
Well, good luck to you when the diesel runs out.I drive a diesel car. I have a range of 1,100km per tank (in reall world driving) and takes less than 5 minutes to fill.
I didn't say we wouldn't reach that figure. I said we may not reach the figures or percentages of cities like Amsterdam of Copenhagen.You claimed a figure as fact that you now admit you may not reach. Now that's progress. Its also very expensive progress.. How much will the scheme cost again ?
According to SEI, we do not have particularly high electricity costs:How hard is this to understand ? The additional costs associated with wind energy is what causes the difference between wholesale costs (ie the cost of a MW of electricity coming out of Money-point) and the cost charged to the consumer.Using purchasing power parities, Ireland is cheaper than the average in the EU for domestic electricity in the two highest consumption bands and specifically in the highest consumption band (band DE) 13% below the average and in the second highest consumption band (band DD) 2% below.
Where are your stats/source for overall efficiencies remaining the same?Load factors do improve off shore but so do costs. They increase dramatically for both installation and maintenance so overall efficiencies are the same. Off shore wind power is actually more expensive to produce than on shore.
Yes, and say €2m/MW for offshore.Are you willing to accept an installed cost for wing of 1.5 million per MW ?
Offshore farms have seen average load factors of 35-40% - will you factor that in?Are you willing to accept an average load factor of 25 to 30% ?
Well, at the moment backup supply must exist but demand management will significantly reduce required back-up capacity. Also, how much capacity already exists and what are the costs for maintaining capacity, even if it isn't used?Do you accept that wind power is neither reliable or secure and a backup supply must exist ? Do you accept that this back up must be paid for ?
I have discussed this with SEI and each BER assessor is individually checked twice a year with regular random checks on the BER certificate results themselves. Do you have any other proof of the impact of the alleged lack of checks and balances?The conflict of interest remains and there are very little checks and balances in place. If you don't believe me ask SEI just how many inspected there are monitoring the BER inspectors ?0 -
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Hi churchview, I'd agree with Bluntguy and say that their infrastructure proposals were too vague.
And I'd like to add that I am really interested in taking your views on board because as a Green member I can go in and try to persuade people
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churchview wrote: »Therefore, the bypass is needed to take some traffic out of the city and to allow for the development of bus lanes by replacing urban car routes with bus routes. Unfortunately, the former Galway Green Councillor opposed the bypass at every opportunity aided by Minister Gormley who interfered some months ago, and this project must now be more likely to suffer severe delay as it hasn't progressed.
That is it in a nutshell ..bar a quibble. The former Green councillor and Gormley were joined by not a few Labour Party nutjobs too while Michael D kept his gob shut rather than show any leadership
The sequence in Galway should be
1. Build bypass
2. THEN drastically restrict traffic in and near the CBD/NUIG/UCHG and prioritise buses on the medieval streetscape with some allowance for deliveries/taxis and with private cars bottom of the gene pool .
3. Increase the density of office / employment in the CBD while bringing in a moratorium on new office/bulky retail/warehouse on the outskirts and even flattening some of them that have been empty for years.
4. Green belt everywhere around the Bypass that is green . Building must go up in Galway not out .
That sequence would be sensible and trending to the sustainable but as Chrchview said the current situation is lunacy , guaranteed gridlock with no end in sight .
Adding this risible 'gléas' proposal from Brian Guckian into the Galway mix shows how completely intellectually bankrupts these green/labour loonys are. A concept like the 'gléas may work if you upgrade an established public transport corridor .
That would be 10-20 years down the line after 1 2 3 and 4 above have been implemented.
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Were the greens a national party and not largely a small cabal inside the M50 they would have a specific policy objective of creating a vibrant corridor ( at a minimum) between Galway and Cork .
That would be a start .
There is of course no such policy .....which vacumn partly goes to explaining their overweening lack of intellectual rigour 0 -
Sponge Bob wrote: »That is it in a nutshell ..bar a quibble. The former Green councillor and Gormley were joined by not a few Labour Party nutjobs too while Michael D kept his gob shut rather than show any leadership
The sequence in Galway should be
1. Build bypass
2. THEN drastically restrict traffic in and near the CBD/NUIG/UCHG and prioritise buses on the medieval streetscape with some allowance for deliveries/taxis and with private cars bottom of the gene pool .
3. Increase the density of office / employment in the CBD while bringing in a moratorium on new office/bulky retail/warehouse on the outskirts and even flattening some of them that have been empty for years.
4. Green belt everywhere around the Bypass that is green . Building must go up in Galway not out .
That sequence would be sensible and trending to the sustainable but as Chrchview said the current situation is lunacy , guaranteed gridlock with no end in sight .
Adding this risible 'gléas' proposal from Brian Guckian into the Galway mix shows how completely intellectually bankrupts these green/labour loonys are. A concept like the 'gléas may work if you upgrade an established public transport corridor .
That would be 10-20 years down the line after 1 2 3 and 4 above have been implemented.
You're dead right. Credit where credit's due The Labour Party were a disgrace on this issue as well and thankfully as a result have found themselves in the political wilderness in Galway.
Completely agree with your sequence of needed developments....see what I did there? I used the word development in a positive way:)
Greens, Govt. etc. need to start listening to people with ideas such as yours (developers if you will) who are "joined up" in that they recognise that private and public transport must be integrated. It's shouldn't be public, to the exclusion of private. Hopefully tacannol and his attitude isn't an isolated one in the Green Party. We need more like him who are genuinely willing to debate rather than preach.0 -
Ahem, "her"churchview wrote: »Hopefully tacannol and his attitude isn't an isolated one in the Green Party. We need more like him who are genuinely willing to debate rather than preach.
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Any more information ? Will they restrict availability of electricity to houses ? Will i be able to have a shower when I come home from work ?
The same person peddling these Demand Management Meters ( so called smart) will not tell you these four things ....because they are all true .
1. A scheme to roll out 25,000 of them in Ireland has been scaled back to between 2500 and 4000. There is NOT ENOUGH COMMUNICATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE IN IRELAND to cope with the larger number . Funnily enough the same arrogant muppet of a minister is responsible for the demand metering scheme and for the underlying causes of failure ...our sheer lack of modern reliable communications networks unlike other countries and most especially in rural areas where grids are weakest.
2. Demand management meters are designed to prevent grid cascades and disorderly blackouts . They do this by causing disorderly blackouts in the home so that the grid can stay up . In theory your blackout will be shorter than it would otherwise be BUT the tendency to protect the grid will probably mean that what may have been a brownout more often becomes a sizeable 2 hour blackout between 5pm and 7pm .
3. There is no ORDERLY mechanism for the meter to turn the shower off although it could come in 10 years ( and if you get a new shower) . demand management meters are either off or on. Technologies like homeplug could be used in high load devices like showers and cookers and heaters and vacumn cleaners and kettles first without taking th ewhole meter out . This will come in time.
4. The minister and the ESB expect us to PAY EXTRA for these trojan horses in our homes . Thank feck I have an old house with an inside meter 0 -
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OK costings
Bord gais spent 400 million building a 440 Mw combined gas Turbine plant in Cork. (please remember CGT plants are relatively expensive to build)
To build a 440mw wind farm would cost as follows.
Assume a 25% load factor.
So for 440MW output would require 1760MW installed at a cost of 1.5 million per MW.
2.64 Billion. V's 440 million or a difference of 2.44 Billion Euros....
That would buy a hell of allot of gas.
At 30% load factor that drops to a difference of 1.8 billion still a hell of allot of gas.
Add the cost of funding that extra 2.44 Billion and the costs grow even higher.... In real terms it would be closer to 4 billion in difference for the capital costs for a small 440 Mw generating plant for a CGT plant V's wind.
As for off shore...
Even assuming 2 million per MW installed and 40% efficiency.
that's 1100Mw installed or again 2.2 billion so funnily enough it does scale up.
The London Array project is approx 1,000MW installed and the quoted costs vary between (depending on source) 1.5 billion sterling and 2 billion sterling which would back your figure.
See wind power is not cheap....0 -
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The London Array project is approx 1,000MW installed and the quoted costs vary between (depending on source) 1.5 billion sterling and 2 billion sterling which would back your figure.
See wind power is not cheap....
I doubt if the Thames is 40% efficient , that figure likely only applies off the Atlantic coasts of Scotland and Ireland . It could be as low as 25% as against possibly 15% onshore in Kent and Essex.
Offshore will always be relatively better but it only makes sense in shallow waters right now and they are often on suboptimal coasts like east of Ireland and east of England .
The Norwegians , bless, have just launched a floating turbine into the Atlantic . Lets see how that goes
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I take it he checked .
Quite a good article on a lot of the typical wind assumptions here and how they are measured.
http://www.eoearth.org/article/Energy_return_on_investment_%28EROI%29,_economic_feasibility_and_carbon_intensity_of_a_hypothetical_Lake_Ontario_wind_farm
Gas Turbines tend to spin up fast so they do not provide base load but are used to deal with sudden power demand . As their day to day usage is unpredictable it is difficult to contratc ahead and a lot of gas is bought on the spot market unless there is onsite storage ...but even then .
I would assume that the price of gas to a turbine is high ....even by gas price standards . Top third of rates apply I would think .
Finally the concept of EROI is important , The Oil Drum carries a lot of serious quality energy analysis . This piece is on EROI itself
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3786
Finally if you are trying to 'smooth' the intermittence of wind you need a lot of fast spin up gas plant rather than semi baseload 'traditional' gas that takes time to bring online .
CCT is the best 'cold start' technology and if we overly rely on Wind in Ireland we will tend to have a lot of CCT plant rathe rthan traditional gas plants because if it ain't a blowing we need a plan B , right now.
Our grid cannot deliver sufficient gas at short notice for unpredicatble fast spins so we therefore need CCT + Onsite Storage that can charge the tanks at off peak times which is even more expensive
We cannot , in fairness, design a reliable grid without fast spin technology to compensate for the intermittence of wind .
The more we rely on wind the more complicated we make it and principle demand side demand metering is almost impossible in Ireland right now even if the greens honestly explained what their beloved 'smart green' meters actuallly ARE , namely rolling spot blackouts .
It has gotten to the stage that the words smart and green , when used together in a sentence in Ireland , actually mean a sneaky kludge.0 -
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Strictly speaking that is an inside domain load balancer not a demand management meter and it does not interoperate with the meter either .
It is more of an intelligent fuseboard than an intelligent meter
Smart meters are basically designed so if the cops want to raid your house at 6am then the electricity will be cut off at 5:59am and there is nothing you can do about it but they will of course do a lot more than that .
There is a hell of a lot of work to be done on the different domains and interops
http://www.nist.gov/smartgrid/Report%20to%20NISTlAugust10%20%282%29.pdf
However we can do nothing much until the energy minister does something useful and works on the access deficit in communications networks .0 -
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Sponge Bob - the EMMA can be bought and installed right now. What does the Energy Minister need to do for that to happen?
Nothing at all, sure buy away , I recommend you avoid micro wind because the payback is about 12 years if it survives that long..... or something enormous like that
Demand metering , packaged as smart metering , will eventually be a form of eugenics in rural areas. Every time it gets cold and the grid gets stressed poor old country people will find their electricity turned off for 'the good of the grid' and that will not happen in Leafy D4 or D6 where core green voters may be found .
Genuine smart metering is a form of energy social contract and requires full disclosure of transmission domain and distribution domain metrics ( in real time) together with the generation domain data we get now . All of this requires ubiquitous low latency always on networks nationwide.
We have not even started to discuss this and in the absence of this information and the means to transmit it nobody should touch smart meters unless they are the kind of turkey who would vote for christmas .
I will end up having to firewall my dear old mothers kettle before long 0 -
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Hang on - Smart Meters depend on Home Area Networks with individual appliances being connected up. They're not interested in appliances like kettles but rather the emersion, hot water cylinder, air conditioning - things like that.
Also, residential demand management devices won't work off on/off. The resident will be allowed to choose from a number of options on when and under what circumstances their electricity will be switched off.
And this must be communicated right back to the NOC and the Billing system . if you program the aircon off ( on request) on a hot evening when the grid is stressed in California you should get credit for it against someone who said feck it , blast away .
Behaviour and outturn and two way real time communications between willing informed contracted parties are what a smart grid really is . If the grid is stressed aand a demand reduction request goes out then those who are seen to respond should get paid for it and those who do not should pay a premium .
This cannot happen in eamon ryans 3g mobile waffle bubble , it is technically impossible to communicateHeh, I know how awful micro wind is. PV is quite successful though, well the real stats I have seen come back on installed residential ones are quite good.
Only if you import it same as wood pellet stoves and boilers .
Paying sei approved installers their price gouger premium makes the business case much weaker .0 -
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