Hate the English??

Rondolfus · 08-10-2009 01:08PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it tells me that England is a lot more important to Ireland than ireland is to England.

Well obviously Ireland was persecuted by England. Not the other way around.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what about the population boom before the famine? or do we ignore that the population of ireland increased at such an alarming rate it could not feed itself. BTW, the Penal Laws had nothing to do with the irish, they were to ensure catholics could not gain any power within the UK. it is coincidental that the majority of Ireland was Catholic. Tell me how these contributed to Genocide by the way, what exactly did the Penal laws entail that affected so many people so much?.

I suggest you read up on the series of laws specifically introduced to the English to weaken the Irish ethnic group. The Penal laws were introduced specifically with the Irish in mind. See also "statutes of Kilkenney", "Poynings law." But don't take my word for it. Take that of one of your own historians...

Professor Lecky a British Protestant and ardent British sympathizer, said in his "History of Ireland in the 18th Century" that the object of the Penal Laws was threefold:

"To deprive Catholics of all civil life; to reduce them to a condition of extreme,
brutal ignorance; and, to disassociate them from the soil.:

Lecky said, "He might with absolute justice, substitute Irish for Catholic, "and added a fourth objective: "To expatriate the race." Most scholars agree that the Penal Laws helped set the stage for the injustices that occurred during The Great Famine and fueled the fires of racism that were directed against the Irish by the British.

I also suggest you look up the official definition of Genocide! I realise that looking up facts isn't your forte. But considering ALL your posts have just been your biased opinion, perhaps its time you used facts???

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I explain to them that a lot of people, mainly Scots, settled there hundreds of years ago and therefore ahve as much right to be there as pretty much the entire population of the US has to be in North America.

Their right for them being there now is not in question. You can't punish children for their fathers (fore-fathers) crimes. The matter we're are dealing with is the initial plantations. Which were an active policy of genocide towards the Irish people. And yes you're quite right, similar to what happened in America. However, in America they are big enough men to admit that a genocide was carried out against the natives

Fratton Fred wrote: »

blah blah blah. Socer hooligans blah blah famine blah blah whinge whinge whinge

Lol glad to see you're staying loyal to your tried and trusted method of debate. You're a poster boy for the English education system.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This country does neither to be honest. i pay for my home in Ireland with money I earn in England, because the perfect must not be criticised Irish have ****ed up the economy that was given to them on a silver platter.

You're in great position then. You can easily pick up your things and move back to your beloved country. After all, you don't think very highly of Ireland. Who knows your move home may be beneficial to all by raising the average IQ in both countries? Just a thought

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Has it not occured to you that every single English/British hero is systematically deominsed by the irish. Churchill, Queen Victoria, Raleigh all get the same treatment.

That's not entirely true. However they are YOUR heros are not ours. Don't expect us to put them on a pedestals. Look what happened with Nelsons pillar lol. All of the people you mentioned are as not clean cut as you'd like To portray. For a start the "Ottoman aid" scandal is well a documented fact. Again something you won't find it in English schools books. Here's a link to one such article... and surprise surprise its written by a man called Abdullah AYMAZ ( Hardly a hardocre Irish nationalist name lol)

http://www.fountainmagazine.com/article.php?ARTICLEID=854

Here's a lovely one of Churchills quotes:

"I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place." -Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

Wow very nice indeed. Sounds quite like nazism doesn't it?? What a great man. That's a good way to end this post because it typifies that narrow minded English mentality, that unfortunately some people still have to this day.

robinph · 08-10-2009 01:33PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

You can't punish children for their fathers (fore-fathers) crimes.

So what exactly is your issue with the English now then?

:):rolleyes::o:mad::(:eek::cool::P:confused::pac:

furiousox · 08-10-2009 01:44PM

Taken from the OP 50 long pages ago....

...have we moved on or is it still acceptable to harbour a long standing grudge against our near neighbours?

Well it's now 2009 and we're currently discussing the 18th century penal laws so no, it appears we haven't moved on at all!

LordSutch · 08-10-2009 01:47PM

Just curious Rondolfus, is it only the English you hate, or are there other nationalities too ?

getz · 08-10-2009 01:49PM

rondolfus,next time you go into a irish pub and listen to irish rebel /hate the english songs,just remember[ how in this day and age],how enlightened you are,dutch tourists i met last year told me that they were shocked by the hate in some of the songs,but its not just in the republic, the northern songs are as bad,its about time bigots are isolated by both communities,after all the tourist board is spending millions to try and bring over english tourists,its irelands second biggest industry,welcome them ,dont hate them ,or you are not doing the republic or irish citizens a service. i keep telling everyone i meet how lovely the irish and ireland is, if they were thinking of coming over to holiday ,just think how they would react on reading your post,

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2009 01:55PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

Well obviously Ireland was persecuted by England. Not the other way around.

that is why there were so many rebellions then. what was it, one in 800 years?

Rondolfus wrote: »

I suggest you read up on the series of laws specifically introduced to the English to weaken the Irish ethnic group. The Penal laws were introduced specifically with the Irish in mind. See also "statutes of Kilkenney", "Poynings law." But don't take my word for it. Take that of one of your own historians...

Professor Lecky a British Protestant and ardent British sympathizer, said in his "History of Ireland in the 18th Century" that the object of the Penal Laws was threefold:

"To deprive Catholics of all civil life; to reduce them to a condition of extreme,
brutal ignorance; and, to disassociate them from the soil.:

Lecky said, "He might with absolute justice, substitute Irish for Catholic, "and added a fourth objective: "To expatriate the race." Most scholars agree that the Penal Laws helped set the stage for the injustices that occurred during The Great Famine and fueled the fires of racism that were directed against the Irish by the British.

I also suggest you look up the official definition of Genocide! I realise that looking up facts isn't your forte. But considering ALL your posts have just been your biased opinion, perhaps its time you used facts???

Well done, you found an irish centric quote by a professor.

The Anti catholic laws applied every bit as much in England as they did in Ireland.

Rondolfus wrote: »

Their right for them being there now is not in question. You can't punish chi
ldren for their fathers (fore-fathers) crimes. The matter we're are dealing with is the initial plantations. Which were an active policy of genocide towards the Irish people. And yes you're quite right, similar to what happened in America. However, in America they are big enough men to admit that a genocide was carried out against the natives

Actually i don't think they have. they like to see genocide all over the world, except in their own back yard.

Rondolfus wrote: »

Lol glad to see you're staying loyal to your tried and trusted method of debate. You're a poster boy for the English education system.

careful now, you're starting to get personal.

Rondolfus wrote: »

You're in great position then. You can easily pick up your things and move back to your beloved country. After all, you don't think very highly of Ireland. Who knows your move home may be beneficial to all by raising the average IQ in both countries? Just a thought

oops, i think that is personal

Rondolfus wrote: »

That's not entirely true. However they are YOUR heros are not ours. Don't expect us to put them on a pedestals. Look what happened with Nelsons pillar lol. All of the people you mentioned are as not clean cut as you'd like To portray. For a start the "Ottoman aid" scandal is well a documented fact. Again something you won't find it in English schools books. Here's a link to one such article... and surprise surprise its written by a man called Abdullah AYMAZ ( Hardly a hardocre Irish nationalist name lol)

http://www.fountainmagazine.com/article.php?ARTICLEID=854

Here's a lovely one of Churchills quotes:

"I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place." -Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

Wow very nice indeed. Sounds quite like nazism doesn't it?? What a great man. That's a good way to end this post because it typifies that narrow minded English mentality, that unfortunately some people still have to this day.

Queen Victoria gave £5000 as well as the money she raised by fronting public contribututions. she wrote several notes to be read out in sunday services calling for people to support the irish famine relief programme.

The Sultan offered a sum of money to Ireland that was in excess of Queen Vic's and to avoid embarrassment, he retracted it and made a smaller offer. The boats were not blocked by the British. other than this story (Which is straight off Wikipedia) there are no other reports of that.

By the way, Drogheda took it's crest from its royal charter not in respect to the Sultan, who's star had eight points, not five.

That Sir, is exactly the Porpoganda rubbish i was referring to.

ejmaztec · 08-10-2009 01:59PM

The problem is that some people can't separate history from the present day, and can't get it into their heads that all of the evil old bastards have long since rotted in their graves. Some don't realise that these "people" didn't actually make their own countrymen's lives a bed of roses.

Latchy · 08-10-2009 02:16PM

getz wrote: »

i keep telling everyone i meet how lovely the irish and ireland is, if they were thinking of coming over to holiday ,just think how they would react on reading your post,

Not to mention some English who are frequent posters on boards ,the first and 2nd generation Irish living in Ireland /UK /world ,other nationalities (as mentioned )and Irish people like me who live in UK and work, socialise with both Irish / English people on a daily /weekly basis

blinding · 08-10-2009 02:19PM

blinding wrote: »

Be a lover not a fighter:D

It makes sense on every level.

Oh yeah and look to the future (sorry I forgot to put that in the last time)
The Irish English wars are over.

Some (very few) Irish people may not be happy about it but peaceful negotiations between the two countries will achieve more than violence for both sides in these times.

It would be helpful if the British would make sure that the Good Friday Agreement is Honoured in full.

Now be nice to one another.;)

getz · 08-10-2009 02:34PM

Latchy wrote: »

Not to mention some English who are frequent posters on boards ,the first and 2nd generation Irish living in Ireland /UK /world ,other nationalities (as mentioned )and Irish people like me who live in UK and work, socialise with both Irish / English people on a daily /weekly basis

its a fact latchy that there is over 6 million english/irish people living in england,almost twice the population than the republic, who can if they wanted entitled to take out a irish passport, all or most have a extended irish family in the republic,if i ever met a fellow englishman who called the irish,i would be very quick to correct him,[lucky for me]i have yet to meet one,the irish are a big part of my english culture,and i am proud of my irish blood.

starbelgrade · 08-10-2009 02:47PM

gustavo wrote: »

Of course they're foreign , Unless they're Irish of course

Once they cross the channel to play the "foreign game", they are dead to us. Shower of traitors.

blinding · 08-10-2009 02:49PM

getz wrote: »

its a fact latchy that there is over 6 million english/irish people living in england,almost twice the population than the republic, who can if they wanted entitled to take out a irish passport, all or most have a extended irish family in the republic,if i ever met a fellow englishman who called the irish,i would be very quick to correct him,[lucky for me]i have yet to meet one,the irish are a big part of my english culture,and i am proud of my irish blood.

Ireland talks a lot about the 70 million Americans that claim some Irish heritage and how their influence can be used to help Ireland.

I do not know the figures for Britain but lets say that getz figures are correct(it would not surprise me if it was more) then Ireland has to use the goodwill of these people and the political influence they can bring to bear in britain, for the benefit of Ireland.

What some Irish people do not realise is how many British people have Irish connections or are just friends of Irish people and being hostile to any of these people does nothing for the good of Ireland or its people.

LordSutch · 08-10-2009 02:52PM

getz wrote: »

its a fact that there is over 6 million english/irish people living in england,almost twice the population than the republic, who can if they wanted entitled to take out a irish passport, all or most have a extended irish family in the republic, if i ever met a fellow englishman who called the irish,i would be very quick to correct him,[lucky for me]i have yet to meet one,the irish are a big part of my english culture,and i am proud of my irish blood.

I might also add that England & the English, are a massive part of Irish culture, and it goes without saying that we too have a lot of English blood running through our Irish veins, its a two way street you know.

me-skywalker · 08-10-2009 02:53PM

For people to be denying their every was a flipside to the debate is wrong. I think the real question should be, do the English Hate the Irish?

Latchy · 08-10-2009 02:57PM

getz wrote: »

its a fact latchy that there is over 6 million english/irish people living in england,almost twice the population than the republic, who can if they wanted entitled to take out a irish passport, all or most have a extended irish family in the republic,if i ever met a fellow englishman who called the irish,i would be very quick to correct him,[lucky for me]i have yet to meet one,the irish are a big part of my english culture,and i am proud of my irish blood.

Yes ,intresting ststistics and I think also that if you look back to the previous decades ie, 40s, 50s, 60s ,70s,80s, when thousends of Irish people had to leave Ireland to go work in England , many who would have settled and either married into other Irish families or nay .Thousends would have returned to Ireland after and at least they would have had the benifit of having lived in England for many years and would have had to put up with some terrible conditions / situations .Then you have perhaps younger Irish people who never set foot in England but who continue to use the handed down History as a bug bat to beat the English with on forums such as this yet will never actually know many or have any / little expierence of English people at all .

I also understand that a lot of posters in this thread dont hate the English and posting with humor and tongue in cheek .

LordSutch · 08-10-2009 02:58PM

Having lived & worked in England for many years, I can certainly say that the English do not hate the Irish, and I would say that 'on the whole' most English people love Ireland, & the Irish people, even to the point of cheering on the Irish football team in English pubs (should Ireland be playing anybody except England).

The whole question of 'hatred' by one people towards another is farcical anyway!

Rondolfus · 08-10-2009 03:02PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that is why there were so many rebellions then. what was it, one in 800 years?

Lol please read up Irish history. Its obvious you need to. One rebellion??? Seriously where are you getting your info?? Here's just a few...

Tyrone's Rebellion, 1595 -1603

The Great Irish Rebellion, 1641 -1649

Cromwell's Irish Campaign (numerous insurections), 1649 -1650

The Irish War Of 1689-1691

United Irishmen's Revolt, 1798

Emmet's Insurrection, 1803

The Irish Tithe War, 1831

The Easter Uprising, 1916

The Anglo-Irish War Of Independence 1916-1921

Once again your comment displays a total lack of understanding of Irish History. I don't know if this is just innocent ignorance or a refusal to accept facts. I've never come across a person that tried to claim the Irish didn't rebel under British rule. Virtually all commentators agree that Ireland was a constant thorn in the side of the British empire.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Well done, you found an irish centric quote by a professor.

The Anti catholic laws applied every bit as much in England as they did in Ireland.

Feel free to look up the historian in question. You won't find one thats more British biased. If you refuse to acknowledge that one of the aims of the penal laws was to subdue the Irish, then you are in the minority. There is plenty of evidence that backs this up.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Queen Victoria gave £5000 as well as the money she raised by fronting public contribututions. she wrote several notes to be read out in sunday services calling for people to support the irish famine relief programme.

I have never come across that figure of 5000, where did you get this from??

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Sultan offered a sum of money to Ireland that was in excess of Queen Vic's and to avoid embarrassment, he retracted it and made a smaller offer.

So the leader of the Ottoman Empire was prepared to give more than the British. Says it all really doesn't it.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That Sir, is exactly the Porpoganda rubbish i was referring to.

You seem to think that Irish persecution is just one big long fiction created as some type of Irish conspiracy. In a way it reminds me of how David Irving speaks about the jews and the Halocaust.

Your anti-Irish feeling, and indeed that of many of your compatriots can be explained by another quote from your revered hero Churchill.

"We have always found the Irish a bit odd. They refuse to be English."

I think thats what it comes down to.

ejmaztec · 08-10-2009 03:07PM

me-skywalker wrote: »

For people to be denying their every was a flipside to the debate is wrong. I think the real question should be, do the English Hate the Irish?

I think that only the thicko tabloid readers did when the bombs were going off in the 70s, but it's supposed to be fashionable to be Irish in recent years. A cousin's English boyfriend wanted to be an honorary Irishman, and I offered to sell him a diploma for €50. In keeping with his honorary nature, he told me to feck off.

I'd say that the only Irish-haters are the UKIP etc anti-Lisbon eurosceptics, but that will probably pass.

getz · 08-10-2009 03:10PM

Camelot wrote: »

I might also add that England & the English, are a massive part of Irish culture, and it goes without saying that we too have a lot of English blood running through our Irish veins, its a two way street you know.

england has over 50,000,000 people,and to me it seems most people i meet have a irish surname ,the UK has been the first place to go to earn a living ,90% of the irish stayed on and married local girls ,so its to be expected,but my biggest shock was to find that there are so many english surnames in the republic,

Latchy · 08-10-2009 03:17PM

Originally Posted by me-skywalker
For people to be denying their every was a flipside to the debate is wrong. I think the real question should be, do the English Hate the Irish?

.The English find our quirks and habits funny amusing and they laugh for the same reasons the Irish laugh at themselfs ,something we are famous for anyway .They love our music ,our culture ,our friendliness ( which has somewhat being dluted a bit in recent times ) Some individuals hate their own next door neighbour which is just the smaller part of hating on a bigger scale .But overall and from my own expierence the English do not hate us ,no .

Rondolfus · 08-10-2009 03:17PM

getz wrote: »

i keep telling everyone i meet how lovely the irish and ireland is, if they were thinking of coming over to holiday ,just think how they would react on reading your post,

So are we to stop talking about History in case it will "offend" people? What about how the Irish people feel when some English people come on these baords and start spewing out crap about how Irish persecution is just one big myth????

Its seems there's a double standard going on here. Its perfectly accectable for English people to come on with their brand of history. However, if an Irish person dares oppose it, they are branded extremists or un-PC. I'm sorry, but no-one is going to stand in front of me and tell me that black is white.

BennyLava · 08-10-2009 03:18PM

getz wrote: »

england has over 50,000,000 people,and to me it seems most people i meet have a irish surname ,the UK has been the first place to go to earn a living ,90% of the irish stayed on and married local girls ,so its to be expected,but my biggest shock was to find that there are so many english surnames in the republic,

why the shock, stands to reason, there has been hundreds of years of intermarriage on these isles, we are all alot closer that some posters would like to believe, ask yourself this, how many of us have english relatives,

I know alot will say their Irish living in England but their still English born and bred

me-skywalker · 08-10-2009 03:24PM

From first-hand experience I find them, okay not so much to hate us, but its more patronising. More like an attitude of patting the little cousin on the back who came 3rd in the 100metre race.

Okay mayeb them hating us is too heavy litke the way us hating them are. But irs all very prejuicidal making assumptions because they like our music,books and humour. Its because they cant 'get' them they find us quirky and humours in a smirking way.

Latchy · 08-10-2009 03:31PM

me-skywalker wrote: »

Okay mayeb them hating us is too heavy litke the way us hating them are. But irs all very prejuicidal making assumptions because they like our music,books and humour. Its because they cant 'get' them they find us quirky and humours in a smirking way.

Well it's not so much about asking or wanting the English to like us ( lots of irish/English dont care either way ) but is it not much better to be liked and appriciated ,even if it's for reason mentioned ie, music culture ? .They dont get us / we dont get them , can work both ways and we are talikng about two nations large and small , with many differences between them but also many things in common .The English language being the main one

wudangclan · 08-10-2009 03:32PM

it's those damned circuits again.

http://theuniverseas.com/emotional-territorial

me-skywalker · 08-10-2009 03:40PM

Latchy wrote: »

Well it's not so much about asking or wanting the English to like us ( lots of irish/English dont care either way ) but is it not much better to be liked and appriciated ,even if it's for reason mentioned ie, music culture ? .They dont get us / we dont get them , can work both ways and we are talikng about two nations large and small , with many differences between them but also many things in common .The English language being the main one

yea i agree that most of our own cultural habits, political system, state foundations, law, are all based heavly if not fully on English system and influences so to 'hate' them is complete horse. But to hate what they done is allowable but to still hold grievance or bear and grudges with them is irrelevant as its a different era and differnet world now.

Latchy wrote: »

but is it not much better to be liked and appriciated ,even if it's for reason mentioned ie, music culture ?

yes it is but my point is that they only seem to appreciate us through a patronising and more condescending tones. Too humour us.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2009 03:43PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

So are we to stop talking about History in case it will "offend" people? What about how the Irish people feel when some English people come on these baords and start spewing out crap about how Irish persecution is just one big myth????

Its seems there's a double standard going on here. Its perfectly accectable for English people to come on with their brand of history. However, if an Irish person dares oppose it, they are branded extremists or un-PC. I'm sorry, but no-one is going to stand in front of me and tell me that black is white.

So that we don't end up arguing all day, I'm not going to respond to your earlier post, but let me say this.

England/Britain carried out a lot of bad things, in Ireland, Britain and elsewhere around the globe. I'm not trying to say it is a myth, what i am trying to say is that it has been spun for ploitical purposes.

In England, irish history is not covered in any great detail, because it is just another chapter in the long and complex history of the British Empire. No one for one minute thinks it was glorious.

history is used by all governments to shape the thinking of the people, what i am arguing is that in Ireland, the anti british history is used to some extent to divert blame from anything they, or the Catholic church has done.

Since independance, this country has elected pretty much every term, the same uselss, corrupt party into power who, for a large part of this time, has been heavily influenced by the church.

it suits this government nicely that the populace hate the British and blame them for everything that has ever gone wrong, it takes the focus off them while they rob you blind.

Most of the history in Ireland is spun so the truth is hard for the average person to find the truth. Take the massacre of protestants in Ulster for example, ask a loyalist how many people were killed and they will tell you it was 200,000, ask a shinner and they will tell you didn't happen and if it did, only a few thousand were killed.

you keep hating us mate, but there are far more important things for the Irish to worry about tbh.

blinding · 08-10-2009 03:52PM

Perhaps some people are wasting too much energy dislikeing the Brits.

If the crowd of shysters that having been running(???) this country recently were put under the spotlight and the energy used to make sure that firstly they were not corrupt and secondly actually doing their jobs then this energy may be better utilised.

Its time to turn the ire on to the present day Irish crooked politicians.

Work away with that and you will get a lot of support in this good work.

Latchy · 08-10-2009 03:52PM

me-skywalker wrote: »

yes it is but my point is that they only seem to appreciate us through a patronising and more condescending tones. Too humour us.

I suppose we will always have some of that as well and the fact that we are a much smaller country doesn't help .I was viewing the British news news reports ,itv/bbc , on the recent Lisbon treaty which I thought was good reporting .Then last saturday somebody started a thread which was half serious/tounge in cheek , about the pictures put up on the bbc website about the Lisbon treaty event in Ireland , which showed amoung others ,pictures of two cute smiling red haired girls and some nuns .There was nothing in the photos that made me or others think that we were being sterotyped by the british media so perhaps at times we can be a little over sensitive .

segaBOY · 08-10-2009 03:54PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

I used to live in England, and the vast majority of them actively really liked Irish people. They seemed genuinely confused, and a bit hurt, when they'd hear Irish people rooting on whoever was playing England in the soccer etc, when most English ppl supprt Ireland when we're playing. It was always a bit embarrassing.

But once I went to this formal ball for a professional association. It was a yearly thing. A good few Irish were working in the UK and were members of this British association. Every year they started off with a toast to the Queen. A simple toast. Not a pledge of allegiance. Just a toast. I happened to be sitting at the table with most of the Irish, as I was friends with them. They decided when the toast came, they wouldn't stand up. So, the whole room stands up to raise their glasses, and the table of paddies stayed sitting in protest. They were all boggers, pretty much. And pretty young. I stood up, and they looked at me like some west brit sellout. But we were all living in England, and were members of their profesiional body. I spent a good while apologising to people that night for their behaviour, and they told me not to worry, as the Irish do it every year. That was the only time I was ashamed of being Irish.

Well when you tar all us "boggers" with the same brush you really shouldn't expect anything else.

I understand where you are coming from-you are in a foreign country, you are gaining valuable employment in a foreign country and you are at a professional event. A bit of respect wouldn't go astray tbh but going around the place appologising seemed to only highlight the situation more imo especially since it was only your bogger friends who wouldn't stand and not a West Brit like you :P

Hate the English??

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